Phariseeism in the Modern Church

[Episkopos]

We cannot judge the final outcome for anyone, but if a person who does many good works consciously rejects faith in Jesus' atonement for sin, I do not see how such a person could enter God's kingdom.

Again we are not saved by accepting a belief in Jesus' atonement. Jesus doesn't need our approval to be a saviour.

 

[markalan]

So morally good people, those who obey the laws concerning man’s behavior toward man, are those who need to repent?

There are no good people in the sense of being sinless, so everyone needs to repent

Who are those who don’t need a physician? Who ARE they that Jesus said don’t need a physician?

"I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mat 9:13)

 

[markalan]

Again we are not saved by accepting a belief in Jesus' atonement. Jesus doesn't need our approval to be a saviour.

"For by grace you have been saved through faith.
And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
Ephesians 2:8

The question then is - faith in what?

Romans 3:25 "Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

 

[Episkopos]

"For by grace you have been saved through faith.
And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God"
Ephesians 2:8

The question then is - faith in what?

Romans 3:25 "whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God’s righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins."

Grace is about holiness and glory. Failing grace means we don't walk in victory over sin.

But God's mercy extends beyond holiness. He justifies the ungodly....based on what they DO.

 

[MostlyConfused]

This is a good but trying discussion this morning markalan.

 

[MostlyConfused]

There are no good people in the sense of being sinless, so everyone needs to repent

"I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." (Mat 9:13)

I agree that there are none who are sinless (holy). The discussion, to me, is does God accept and make a place for those who treat their neighbor as well as they treat themselves or does He destroy and reject everyone who doesn’t attain to holiness in this life?

 

[markalan]

This is a good but trying discussion this morning markalan.

night time where I live
I am always trying

 

[markalan]

I agree that there are none who are sinless (holy). The discussion, to me, is does God accept and make a place for those who treat their neighbor as well as they treat themselves or does He destroy and reject everyone who doesn’t attain to holiness in this life?

I recommend you read the final judgement passage in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I will read it now.

 

[markalan]

Grace is about holiness and glory. Failing grace means we don't walk in victory over sin.

But God's mercy extends beyond holiness. He justifies the ungodly....based on what they DO.

I am wondering how you see the place of faith since you say "we are not saved by accepting a belief in Jesus' atonement."

 

[MostlyConfused]

Oh yeah, that’s a parable I am amazed by so much. It reads to me as if the first group has no idea who Jesus is and no idea they have helped His body/Him.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Oh yeah, that’s a parable I am amazed by so much. It reads to me as if the first group has no idea who Jesus is and no idea they have helped His body/Him.

But don’t you see, markalan? That parable is people who didn’t know Jesus, didn’t recognize His body, never “accepted” Him. And yet, based on what they DID, even unknowingly, He accepts them. They didn’t help any from His body because they discerned His body, they just helped someone they saw needed help.

 

[MostlyConfused]

I am wondering how you see the place of faith since you say "we are not saved by accepting a belief in Jesus' atonement."

Even unbelievers know it isn’t what you say that matters, it is what you DO that matters. We have numerous sayings that show this:
put your money where your mouth is
when people show you who they are, believe them
your mouth has written a check, now cover it

there are so many sayings of men that speak about it.
Theres a parable about it too. The son who said he would but then didn’t versus the son who said he wouldn’t but then did.

 

[markalan]

But don’t you see, markalan? That parable is people who didn’t know Jesus, didn’t recognize His body, never “accepted” Him. And yet, based on what they DID, even unknowingly, He accepts them. They didn’t help any from His body because they discerned His body, they just helped someone they saw needed help.

Matthew 25 is the final judgment and I agree with your reading of that passage.

When Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" He is talking about our personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ in our daily life.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Matthew 25 is the final judgment and I agree with your reading of that passage.

When Jesus said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me" He is talking about our personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ in our daily life.

And then there is the second group in that parable. They seem just as surprised as the first group.

 

[markalan]

And then there is the second group in that parable. They seem just as surprised as the first group.

Yes, they did not realize that Jesus identifies Himself with the human race.

This saying by Jesus should make us all pause and think

Matthew 7:22
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

 

[Laurina]

I believe one has to please God in order to be acceptable.

You may believe that, but that's YOUR belief, not God's condition. Acceptable and pleased are not the same.
God has a Father's heart, He loves and IS love. We are His creation, His children whom He loves. If you have ever disciplined children, you'd know that acceptable and pleasing are 2 very different things..., but acceptable still gets you in the door, so to speak. ;)
Gen 4:7, Acts 10:35, Prov 21:3, are a few scriptures you could check out. I'm sure you are more than capable of doing your own study.

Heb 11-Without Faith it is impossible to please God. Many have been redeemed who have never read a bible. Their faith came from the Word of God manifested in the flesh. Perhaps your friend is closer to the kingdom that you think. You could be the one to lead him in.

To be clear, I'm not negating that faith is pleasing to God. If you have faith, great!! Grow it!! I encourage you!
But for those who do not have faith (perhaps turned off by other "so called Christians", or raised in a different religion and/or culture, or for whatever reason), yet do what is acceptable to God (love their neighbours as themselves), will He not have mercy on them? Will they be punished for being kind, respectful, caring, and putting others before themselves? Would your God reject these people?

Romans 9:15 says:
"For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

I will leave it in your capable hands to study this.
Be encouraged! Our God is an awesone God!!

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yes, they did not realize that Jesus identifies Himself with the human race.

This saying by Jesus should make us all pause and think

Matthew 7:22
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

It’s pretty shocking when you see it. And you think, oh my gosh, the doctrines and leaven of men had almost killed me…they made me condemn people Jesus does not condemn!

 

[mailmandan]

Yes, they did not realize that Jesus identifies Himself with the human race.

This saying by Jesus should make us all pause and think

Matthew 7:22
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’

We should pause and think if we are in the group that says, 'Lord, Lord, didn't WE' (accomplish this, that and the other - salvation by works) or 'Lord, Lord, didn't YOU' (die for my sins, were buried, and rose again the third day to provide for me eternal life - by faith I am trusting in YOU alone for salvation). I am in the latter group, yet prior to my conversion several years ago, I was in the first group. I even remember reading Matthew 7:22-23 as an unbeliever and pausing and thinking to myself, wow! Those many people accomplished all of that but that still was not good enough. Then I thought to myself at that time, how am I going to "top that" and be good enough. Such is the mindset of works-righteousness/self-righteousness.

 

[Episkopos]

I am wondering how you see the place of faith since you say "we are not saved by accepting a belief in Jesus' atonement."

We tend to confuse faith with beliefs. We can believe that Jesus atoned for sins...but salvation from sin is not about naming and claiming atonement based on beliefs. faith moves mountains. Beliefs make theories about mountains.