Pope: Gay Marraige Threatens Humany's Future

[Foreigner]

One would think that the billion or so Catholics around the world are to support the opinion of the spiritual leader....



http://www.nydailynews.com/news/world/pope-gay-marriage-threatens-humanity-future-article-1.1003549#commentpostform


Pope: Gay marriage threatens humanity’s future

Pontiff's strongest tirade yet says same-sex nuptials 'undermine the family'

By Rheana Murray / NEW YORK DAILY NEWS

In his ‘State of the World’ address, Pope Benedict XVI says gay marriage ‘undermines the family’ and the dignity of human beings.


Pope Benedict XVI denounced gay marriage in his annual “State of the World” address Monday, going so far as to say the same-sex nuptials threaten the future of humanity.
In the speech, the pope, 84, unleashed what some consider being his strongest tirade against gay marriage, saying it is among conventions that “undermine the family” and “threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself,” Reuters reported.
“Pride of place goes to the family, based on the marriage of a man and woman,” the pontiff said.
“This is not a simple convention, but rather the fundamental cell of every society,” he continued. “Consequently, policies which undermine the family threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself.”

Read the entire “State of the World” speech at Vatican Radio’s website:
http://www.oecumene.radiovaticana.org/en1/Articolo.asp?c=552959

 

[lawrance]

And he is entirely correct.

Good to see someone with the foresight to see the folly in another pathetic moronic trendy low life miserable work of deception and it's vile cunning attack on the truth in a Christian marriage.

What is wrong with the term gay partnership, as that is all that it is in fact.

Some people think they are married but in truth they are only in a partnership in the eyes of God. as the two become one in a marriage.
And Adam and Steve don't make the grade and can not be as one in Gods plan. as he made them as man and woman for a reason. and any thing that opposes that must be a work of Satan.

 

[aspen]

Oh, I see you are pouting about the Garden thread.......lol

Perhaps I should consult the dowsing rod to determine if humanity is really threatened or not; I hear it is the new science......

 

[Foreigner]

Don't you just hate it when the spiritual leader of your denomination doesn't agree with you?

But you'll of course disagree and do your own thing, even if it means disagreement and disobedience.

Why? Because you are special, and special people do what they want, not what is right.




.

 

[Rach1370]

this may offend my catholic friends, but I'm sorry, it has to be said.....the pope looks a little like Santa in that pic!!!! Just add beard and hat!

 

[aspen]

Don't you just hate it when the spiritual leader of your denomination doesn't agree with you?

But you'll of course disagree and do your own thing, even if it means disagreement and disobedience.

Why? Because you are special, and special people do what they want, not what is right.




.

Homosexuality is a sin. I am in complete agreement with Catholic doctrine on this issue. I am glad you are willing to admit the reason you started this trolling thread, Foreigner. I accept your apology.

Rach, your description of the Pope is tame compared to many others out there.

 

[Foreigner]

Nope. I started the thread because the article appeared online.
Sorry to to deflate your narcissism but you weren't even on my mind when I posted it.
Your response is not surprising, though. You couldn't address the issue. That would show you out of step with your own church.
So, typically for you, you had to try to deflect by discussing a completely different topic in a completely different thread.
I chose to ignore that and comment on this thread, and your conclusion? Well......once again you and facts are on opposite sides of the issue.


Again to the topic at hand:
You agree with PART of the Pope's position, but not with his policy.

You agree with him that it is a sin, but you obviously don't agree that it "threatens human dignity and the future of humanity itself” as the Pope said.

Because if you did, that would run contrary to your stated position that homosexuals should be allowed to marry and that anyone who opposes is 'violating civil rights.'

It really isn't possible to agree with your spiritual leader and yet still believe that letting homosexuals marry is more important than the "threat to human dignity and the future of humanity itself."

Or has your position on gay marraige changed?

Because, if it hasn't, then you are accusing the spiritual leader of your denomination of 'violating civil rights.'




.

 

[aspen]

Nope. I started the thread because the article appeared online.
Sorry to to deflate your narcissism but you weren't even on my mind when I posted it.

Oh I am sure you did. You were just turning to the Pope for some spiritual guidance hmm?

Your response is not surprising, though. You couldn't address the issue. That would show you out of step with your own church.
So, typically for you, you had to try to deflect by discussing a completely different topic in a completely different thread.
I chose to ignore that and comment on this thread, and your conclusion? Well......once again you and facts are on opposite sides of the issue.

I agree with the Pope that homosexuality is a sin - all sin has ramifications. The Pope believes that homosexuality threatens the existence of humanity - ok. I believe that it is a risk I am willing to take as a member of a free society. Also, banning same sex marriage is not going to stop same sex marriages from occurring.

Again to the topic at hand:
You agree with PART of the Pope's position, but not with his policy.

Where is the policy? The Pope is not making policy. If you are suggesting that I am trying to promoting same sex marriage within the Catholic Church or any other church that believes and teaches homosexuality is a sin - I am certainly not. Churches have the freedom to marry whom ever they want.

You agree with him that it is a sin, but you obviously don't agree that it "threatens human dignity and the future of humanity itself” as the Pope said.

Wrong. But even if I did disagree with him - as a former Catholic, you should be aware that Catholics do not have to agree with every word uttered from the lips of the Pope - we are called to follow our spirit lead consciences.

Because if you did, that would run contrary to your stated position that homosexuals should be allowed to marry and that anyone who opposes is 'violating civil rights.'

False dichotomy. The statement by the Pope and my beliefs can both be true.

It really isn't possible to agree with your spiritual leader and yet still believe that letting homosexuals marry is more important than the "threat to human dignity and the future of humanity itself."

Of course it is.

Or has your position on gay marraige changed?

Why would it?

Because, if it hasn't, then you are accusing the spiritual leader of your denomination of 'violating civil rights.'

Really? I didn't know the Pope voted in California.

 

[mcorba]

You guys need a relationship counsellor :-s

(null)

 

[aspen]

Why is everyone writing (null) after their posts now?

 

[lawrance]

Aspen there is 6 sides to a square and i think you can't see one side.
If you want to debate about the Garden it may be better to do so from a Spiritual foundation first not just a worldly, maybe best, that way we have a true foundation to start from.
Coming from the worldly point of view foundation, back to the Spiritual does not work.

 

[Hollyrock]

I agree with the Pope, same sex marriage is wrong because it goes against God's Word. We should pray for those precious people who live in error.

 

[Foreigner]

You were just turning to the Pope for some spiritual guidance hmm

-- Nope. But you did show that if he disagrees with you, then the spiritual leader of your denomination's deeply personal beliefs are "just an opinion" and nothing more, and Catholics (contrary to Catholic doctrine) are under no responsibility to see it as anything more than just an opinion.
What an awesome (but ill-informed) Catholic you are.

The Pope believes that homosexuality threatens the existence of humanity - ok. I believe that it is a risk I am willing to take as a member of a free society.

-- You are willing to risk the existence of humanity in order to push for something you know that God Himself opposes.
Arrogance aside, chosing to actively support that which you know God opposes is not what one would call a very bright move.

The Pope is not making policy. If you are suggesting that I am trying to promoting same sex marriage within the Catholic Church or any other church that believes and teaches homosexuality is a sin - I am certainly not.

-- You really need to read up a little. Catholics do not believe - nor are they taught - that the Pope's deep-seated beliefs on issues such as gay marraige, abortion, the death penalty, etc. are just guidelines that people should consider and then choose to follow or not, based on their own opinions.

According to our local priest, Bishops, Cardinals, and the Pope himself, you couldn't be more wrong.

Wrong. But even if I did disagree with him - as a former Catholic, you should be aware that Catholics do not have to agree with every word uttered from the lips of the Pope - we are called to follow our spirit lead consciences

-- Actually, Catholics are taught that what the Pope says on matters such as abortion, the death penalty, gay marraige, etc. is to be considered "spirit lead conscience" from the God-chosen overseer of their faith.
Therefore, chosing to disregard what he says....

The statement by the Pope and my beliefs can both be true.

So his belief that homosexual marraige "threaten's humanities very future" and your belief that Christians should support (or at least not oppose) gay marriage......can both be the correct beliefs?
Wow.....and again I say, Wow.

Because, if it hasn't, then you are accusing the spiritual leader of your denomination of 'violating civil rights.' - Me

Really? I didn't know the Pope voted in California. - Aspen

-- No, but he does strongly impact the beliefs of MILLIONS of actual Catholic voters in CA that actually vote their faith over man's call to sanction sin that deeply offends God.

Now, accoring to the standards you put forth in the past on this board, if that isn't "violating civil rights" then I don't know what is LOL

He also strongly impacts the faith and thus the actions in the other 49 states, as well as every country that the current 1.1 Billion Catholics inhabit.

Sorry to interject facts here, but one of us had to.

It really isn't possible to agree with your spiritual leader and yet still believe that letting homosexuals marry is more important than the "threat to human dignity and the future of humanity itself." - Me

Of course it is. - Aspen

-- We'll just let that one stand for all to see...




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[aspen]

I believe the Pope is a friend of God's and he is speaking sincerely. When he is speaking Ex Cathedra, I take his word as infallible. At other times, I recognize his authority and understand that I am knowingly disagreeing with a person's opinion that I value. It is not easy for me to disagree with the Church that I love and am committed to learning from, but it the case of homosexual marriage outside the church, I believe they have the right to the pursuit of happiness.

On this subject, I agree with Tony Campollo - homosexual marriage is better than fornication and adultery. I also believe that much of the devastation caused by homosexuals marrying heterosexuals and having kids, only to leave after 10 years could be avoided if people were not riddled by shame as well as homosexual thoughts and feelings.

 

[Foreigner]

I believe the Pope is a friend of God's and he is speaking sincerely. When he is speaking Ex Cathedra, I take his word as infallible. At other times, I recognize his authority and understand that I am knowingly disagreeing with a person's opinion that I value. It is not easy for me to disagree with the Church that I love and am committed to learning from, but it the case of homosexual marriage outside the church, I believe they have the right to the pursuit of happiness.

On this subject, I agree with Tony Campollo - homosexual marriage is better than fornication and adultery. I also believe that much of the devastation caused by homosexuals marrying heterosexuals and having kids, only to leave after 10 years could be avoided if people were not riddled by shame as well as homosexual thoughts and feelings.

- Thank you, Aspen.
I see where you are coming from.
I do ask one question, though. And I ask it sincerity, not confrontation.

How do you know the Pope isn't speaking Ex Cathedra?
The reason I ask is because my understanding is that the Pope never makes specific moral pronouncements that are in conflict with - or absent from - his pronunciations "from the chair."

As far as Tony Campollo and his opinion that "homosexual marriage is better than fornication and adultery," while it may not be adultery, in God's eyes, homosexual activity - whether within gay marraige or out - is still fornication.

My concern is that it will give those in that relationship the false idea that God smiles down upon their relationship because the sexual activity is within man's idea of what marraige is.

 

[aspen]

- Thank you, Aspen.
I see where you are coming from.
I do ask one question, though. And I ask it sincerity, not confrontation.

How do you know the Pope isn't speaking Ex Cathedra?
The reason I ask is because my understanding is that the Pope never makes specific moral pronouncements that are in conflict with - or absent from - his pronunciations "from the chair."

As far as Tony Campollo and his opinion that "homosexual marriage is better than fornication and adultery," while it may not be adultery, in God's eyes, homosexual activity - whether within gay marraige or out - is still fornication.

My concern is that it will give those in that relationship the false idea that God smiles down upon their relationship because the sexual activity is within man's idea of what marraige is.

You raise a valid point - the definition of Ex Cathedra is a teaching on faith and morals. Protestants are right to question this definition because it is hazy. For me, the Pope has to declare it Ex Cathedra or I do not take it that way.

I know what you are saying about homosexuals and the issue of fornication - for me it is a private comfort to know that they are trying to make a moral choice - from there it is up to God.

People know that Christians disagree with homosexuality, regardless of laws.

 

[Foreigner]

You raise a valid point - the definition of Ex Cathedra is a teaching on faith and morals. Protestants are right to question this definition because it is hazy. For me, the Pope has to declare it Ex Cathedra or I do not take it that way.

-- To me that seems simply to be a convenient dodge for a Catholic to not have to agree with the God supported, heartfelt moral stance of the leader of their church.

Especially when the Catholic church has never said that the Pope's position on a matter of moral or scriptural authority should only be believed and adhered to IF AND ONLY IF it is pronounced Ex Cathedra.

Is the Pope wrong when he says that abortion is wrong and runs contrary to what God desires and calls for?
If not, then as a Catholic, is it really acceptable to disagree with him and actively support a different opinion simply since he didn't say it "from the throne?"

Same with Gay marraige. Does him saying it is morally wrong but not saying it "from the throne" negate the statement's accuracy and give a Catholic the right to actively support what the Pope himself says, "undermines the family, threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself?”

It is convenient to say that if the Pope didn't say it Ex Cathedra that Catholics are then under no obligation to support him or hold the same opinion.

Ex Cathedra has been used roughly five times in the last thousand years. Does that REALLY mean that every other pronouncement on morals, beliefs and God by the Pope during that time holds no validity or responsibility of obedience from Catholics?

I believe you would say that it IS the responsibility of Catholics everywhere.....if you happened to agree with the Pope's position.

Let me put it another way:
If the Pope speaks on morals and beliefs and what he says agrees completely with what God says, does it make it any less of a responsibility for Catholics to agree and obey because it wasn't said Ex Cathedra?

If a Catholic can say about the Pope's moral and ethical proclamations "that's just his opinion" and take it as a "suggestion" rather than direction and instruction, then what the heck is the Pope's role within the church in the first place?

I know what you are saying about homosexuals and the issue of fornication - for me it is a private comfort to know that they are trying to make a moral choice - from there it is up to God.

-- But God has already done the "up to" part. He has spoken and his position is the final say. Your 'private comfort' is nice for you, but your support for our country to sanction what God Himself has called an 'abomination' hurts many homosexuals with a false sense of security and confirms for God that this nation has further turned its back on Him, thus encouraging Him to return the favor.

People know that Christians disagree with homosexuality, regardless of laws.

-- Yes. But they incorrectly assume there is no God, or that there is a God but he would not condemn them.
This error is perpetuated (if not magnified) by Christians who do not speak out about the dangers, call for the acceptance of gay marraige, and/or call for the ordination of gays, even those who are not practicing celibacy.

You cannot show true Christian compassion or be an example of who God is by not helping sinners to undstand why sin (not just this sin) is so very dangerous and that their eternal salvation is on the line. Not helping them understand how damaging and dangerous the sin in their life is is NOT the definition of 'loving them unconditionally.'

 

[aspen]

-- To me that seems simply to be a convenient dodge for a Catholic to not have to agree with the God supported, heartfelt moral stance of the leader of their church.

I am simply acknowledging that Ex Cathdra is not well defined. I am aware of my churches' stance on homosexuality and I am aware that my beliefs as an American citizen may clash with these views. Like I said before, disagreeing with my church is not something I take lightly.

Especially when the Catholic church has never said that the Pope's position on a matter of moral or scriptural authority should only be believed and adhered to IF AND ONLY IF it is pronounced Ex Cathedra.

On this subject I am following the instruction of my church by following my conscience.

Is the Pope wrong when he says that abortion is wrong and runs contrary to what God desires and calls for?
If not, then as a Catholic, is it really acceptable to disagree with him and actively support a different opinion simply since he didn't say it "from the throne?"

I believe abortion is wrong. It is the result of a tear in the fabric of morality due to cultural decline. It is also a failure of the church. So I think it is a bit short-sighted and ultimately futile for the church to simply declare the obvious without recognizing it's failure or offering a solution. But regardless, I choose to fight abortion by changing the adoption laws rather than outlawing the procedure. Without a viable solution to the problem of abortion, it will cause more evil to outlaw it.

Same with Gay marraige. Does him saying it is morally wrong but not saying it "from the throne" negate the statement's accuracy and give a Catholic the right to actively support what the Pope himself says, "undermines the family, threaten human dignity and the future of humanity itself?”

I am not sure how much more clear I can be.....my stance on homosexuality is in line with the church. My view on homosexuality is also in line with the constitution.

It is convenient to say that if the Pope didn't say it Ex Cathedra that Catholics are then under no obligation to support him or hold the same opinion.

Ok.

Ex Cathedra has been used roughly five times in the last thousand years. Does that REALLY mean that every other pronouncement on morals, beliefs and God by the Pope during that time holds no validity or responsibility of obedience from Catholics?

I think we have covered this.

I believe you would say that it IS the responsibility of Catholics everywhere.....if you happened to agree with the Pope's position.

I disagree. I think you know me well enough by now to realize that I am not the the Pope's enforcer. I do not push Catholic doctrine.

Let me put it another way:
If the Pope speaks on morals and beliefs and what he says agrees completely with what God says, does it make it any less of a responsibility for Catholics to agree and obey because it wasn't said Ex Cathedra?

If a Catholic member disagrees with the Pope, she should acknowledge the Pope's point and be clear that she is placing herself outside the opinion of the church. It is not a sin to disagree with the Pope.

If a Catholic can say about the Pope's moral and ethical proclamations "that's just his opinion" and take it as a "suggestion" rather than direction and instruction, then what the heck is the Pope's role within the church in the first place?

If any Catholic member decides to disagree with the Pope, they should realize that they are outside the opinion of the Catholic Church and be prepared to be wrong. I do not mind being wrong. It is always a possibility no matter how much I study or feel like I am right.

-- But God has already done the "up to" part. He has spoken and his position is the final say. Your 'private comfort' is nice for you, but your support for our country to sanction what God Himself has called an 'abomination' hurts many homosexuals with a false sense of security and confirms for God that this nation has further turned its back on Him, thus encouraging Him to return the favor.

God has given homosexuals the freedom to marry and have sex. I do not believe I have the right to stand in the way of God's freedom or the constitutional freedom for homosexuals to sin according to my Christian moral standards. Heterosexuals have the God given right and the constitution right to engage in fornication and adultery without the fear of criminal prosecution - I am not going to legally stand in their way.

-- Yes. But they incorrectly assume there is no God, or that there is a God but he would not condemn them.
This error is perpetuated (if not magnified) by Christians who do not speak out about the dangers, call for the acceptance of gay marraige, and/or call for the ordination of gays, even those who are not practicing celibacy.

If they do not believe in God, how does imposing a Christian based law from a God they do not recognize, lead them to God? Seems to me it would lead them to rebellion against a government that is imposing irrational laws. It might even look like the anger some Christian feel towards the possibility (however remote) of Sharia law being past in regions of America.

I do not support homosexual marriage in the church or ordination of practicing homosexuals.

You cannot show true Christian compassion or be an example of who God is by not helping sinners to undstand why sin (not just this sin) is so very dangerous and that their eternal salvation is on the line. Not helping them understand how damaging and dangerous the sin in their life is is NOT the definition of 'loving them unconditionally.'

I am not sure why you cannot accept that we approach Christian witnessing differently. You have expressed such strong opinions about the ineffective manner in which you belief I engage in witnessing. The problem is, you have no idea how I behave towards nonbelievers or believers in my everyday life. You have no idea if God has lead me to be the person who prepares the soil for the seeds or the planter or the reaper. I believe God has given me a strong witness and has worked through me daily to influence people and lead them to Him - even if it is subtle or doesn't register on the 'street witnessing' scale. All I can do it what God is leading me to do.

blessings