Porphyry wants to know

[Matthias]

I see. So you have no response to what I wrote.

Much love!

This thread concerns the wideness (or narrowness) of God’s mercy in relation to the unevangelized. (The subject of Pinnock’s book.)

 

[marks]

What about those who had never even heard God’s promises?

This is your answer. The rest is irrelevant. What about the guy who hasn't heard? This:

God has always had his witness in creation, leaving man with no excuse. When I was 10 years old I knew God existed simply because I saw the world and understood it didn't just happen.

Romans 1 tells us everyone has this knowledge, but some don't want to know, so they choose to forget.

Romans 1:18-24 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

No one disbelieves God for "lack of evidence" or "lack of a witness".

This passage is clear. God has shown Himself to everyone though His creation, except some don't want to be responsible for that knowledge so they pretend they don't have it.

This OP question is foolishness, Biblically speaking, as it denies what God has Himself said. And who is asking? Not someone living in an isolated community, but someone who has already heard the Gospel, and wants to not be responsible.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

This is your answer. The rest is irrelevant. What about the guy who hasn't heard? This:

God has always had his witness in creation, leaving man with no excuse. When I was 10 years old I knew God existed simply because I saw the world and understood it didn't just happen.

Romans 1 tells us everyone has this knowledge, but some don't want to know, so they choose to forget.

Romans 1:18-24 KJV
18) For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19) Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21) Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22) Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23) And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.
24) Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

No one disbelieves God for "lack of evidence" or "lack of a witness".

This passage is clear. God has shown Himself to everyone though His creation, except some don't want to be responsible for that knowledge so they pretend they don't have it.

This OP question is foolishness, Biblically speaking, as it denies what God has Himself said. And who is asking? Not someone living in an isolated community, but someone who has already heard the Gospel, and wants to not be responsible.

Much love!

The OP question is the question asked by a pagan in the 3rd century. The passage in Romans is what I was waiting for someone to mention and then apply to the case of the unevangelized.

That’s what Pinnock is getting at in his book. That’s what I’d like my readers to think about and discuss.

There is a wideness in God’s mercy.

 

[Matthias]

“I am trying to change evangelical thinking on this subject”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, p. 15)

Should he have tried? Should evangelical thinking on this subject change? Will it change?

 

[marks]

That’s what Pinnock is getting at in his book.

I don't need a whole book to tell me what Paul wrote in half a page.

God was at work even in ancient pagan religions?

Are you trying to get us all to think that Jesus is behind the Corn God? And trusting in the Corn God gets you saved? Is that the idea?

No "God-speed" on that one!

 

[Matthias]

I don't need a whole book to tell me what Paul wrote in half a page.



Are you trying to get us all to think that Jesus is behind the Corn God? And trusting in the Corn God gets you saved? Is that the idea?

No "God-speed" on that one!

No. That isn’t the idea.

* Another thread driven into a ditch. *

 

[Wick Stick]

Why? She lived her life as well as, if not better than, the average Christian.

They're probably getting annihilated, too

 

[marks]

* Another thread driven into a ditch. *

You're the one driving. Think about it.

Much love!

 

[marks]

There once was a little old lady who lived in Fiji 10,000 years ago. She had never heard of God or Jesus. She knew nothing about the prophets of Israel. She had never heard of any promises made by a God. She didn’t observe any special holy days or practice any dietary laws. She lived and died without knowing anything about anyone who didn’t live in Fiji, nor about anything that happened beyond Fiji. She nevertheless lived out her days in ways that we would recognize were righteous.

What will God do with the little old lady from Fiji?

Speaking of driving . . . hypotheticals are like that, you make them go whatever direction you want, since they are not real, and as a personal imagination, you can reimagine them to your heart's content.

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Porphyry was a pagan critic of Christianity. His “foolishness” is the “foolishness” of an unbeliever in the early days of the way and is as relevant in our days as it was through all the centuries preceding it. It will be just as relevant until the Messiah returns.

We may think of Porphyry representing unbelievers in general.

Followers of the Messiah must be equipped to handle it, doing justice to the wideness in God’s mercy without misrepresenting it.

 

[Matthias]

They're probably getting annihilated, too

No wideness in God’s mercy for evangelical Christians?

 

[talons]

There once was a little old lady who lived in Fiji 10,000 years ago. She had never heard of God or Jesus. She knew nothing about the prophets of Israel. She had never heard of any promises made by a God. She didn’t observe any special holy days or practice any dietary laws. She lived and died without knowing anything about anyone who didn’t live in Fiji, nor about anything that happened beyond Fiji. She nevertheless lived out her days in ways that we would recognize were righteous.

What will God do with the little old lady from Fiji?

Oh man ! I don't like cleaning out the ditches with my auto .

God will treat her fairly , how do I know , these verses below in Romans 2 .

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I wonder did Porphyry have access to the writings of Paul ? The New Testament was not yet canonized .

 

[marks]

We may think of Porphyry representing unbelievers in general.

Then we should see this the way God does. Everyone knows God exists. Some don't want to be accountable to Him, so they pretend He doesn't, and come to believe their own lie.

Do you believe this is true?

Much love!

 

[Matthias]

Oh man ! I don't like cleaning out the ditches with my auto .

God will treat her fairly , how do I know , these verses below in Romans 2 .

14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

“God will treat her fairly” -> the cornerstone of the wideness in God’s mercy.

Scripture contains many examples of God’s mercy being showered on unbelievers.

I wonder did Porphyry have access to the writings of Paul ? The New Testament was not yet canonized .

I don’t know that he did. What we do know is that he had contact with Christians and that he wasn’t persuaded by their arguments. This particular question of his was intended by him to be a “kill shot”.

 

[talons]

Scripture contains many examples of God’s mercy being showered on unbelievers.

Yes indeed .

An aside to the discussion .
For those who hold to a doctrine of "sin nature " I would like to point out from these scriptures "by nature" the law was followed ! ! Sin nature is a farce .

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Wick Stick]

No wideness in God’s mercy for evangelical Christians?

Annihilation IS mercy. A reward on top of that is another level

 

[Matthias]

Yes indeed

In keeping with God’s character, even those who will be destroyed in the lake of fire will be treated mercifully.

An aside to the discussion .
For those who hold to a doctrine of "sin nature " I would like to point out from these scriptures "by nature" the law was followed ! ! Sin nature is a farce .

13(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)
16In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[lforrest]

People before the time of Jesus Christ people had to follow the written law or their conscience in the absence of God's law. Yet those who were observant would come to know of their inadequacy despite attempts to live righteously.

They recognized their sin and asked God for forgiveness, making sacrificial offerings. An angel of the Lord ensures all with ears to hear know the eternal gospel. He is responsible for spreading knowledge about the need to worship, make sacrifices, and to fear God's judgement.

I believe that Jesus preached to them in the grave, as through obedience they showed that they knew him despite their ignorance. But now the time of ignorance is over, and God demands repentance. This repentance is putting on the mind of Christ.

 

[Matthias]

Annihilation IS mercy.

I just posted the same sentiment to @talons.

A reward on top of that is another level

I don’t know what you’re getting at with this comment. There is no recovery, and therefore no reward, for those who will be annihilated.

God annihilating the evangelical Christians is beyond my attitude toward them.

 

[Matthias]

“Since God has not left anyone without witness, people are judged on the basis of the light they have received and how they have responded to that light. Faith in God is what saves, not possessing certain minimum information.”

(Clark H. Pinnock, A Wideness in God’s Mercy, pp.157-158)