Pray Instead?

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Your attitude is jingoist in nature, not spiritual.

You may continue to wave your striped flag and pray to it if you wish. That is your perogrative as a citizen of this nation.

You can also choose to ignor the precedent of scripture with regard to wicked leadership. That's up to you as well.

That God may be included in your exclusionary nationalistic expectations is up to the Almighty.
I pretty much think scripture tells the tale of what He thinks about hypocrisy and debauchery at the high levels of government. The revelation of history in turn speaks of the judgment He is working upon us.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist or a theologian to miss it, just a blind fanatic.

 

[Foreigner]

You may continue to wave your striped flag and pray to it if you wish. That is your perogrative as a citizen of this nation.

-- Gosh, thanks. It's sure swell of you to give prayer your seal of approval

That God may be included in your exclusionary nationalistic expectations is up to the Almighty.

-- So by following God's divinely inspired scripture such as:

exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

.....I am showing "exclusionary nationalistic expectations?" I can live with that.

I pretty much think scripture tells the tale of what He thinks about hypocrisy and debauchery at the high levels of government.

-- Yes. God destests that. Which is why He calls on us to pray for them. That way they will either gain wisdom or be restricted in the amount of damage they can do. Simple stuff.

You don't need to be a rocket scientist or a theologian to miss it, just a blind fanatic.

-- Yes, you have demonstrated that many times.

 

[[email protected]]

Am I certain of God's attitude about political wickedness?

With regard to refusing to support or encourage the policies of a government that has designs against it's own people? yes.
With regard to supporting those who are called by the name of Christ? yes.
With regard to seeking God's righteousness in our land? yes.
With regard to knowing right and wrong? yes.
With regard to God's law? yes.
Applying Biblical precepts? yes.

My undivided allegiance is to Christ, not the government of the united States or any country.
Allegiance demands support in every way.
That's where I draw the line.
That's where we differ.

The German people prayed for their Hitler and the southern people prayed for Confederate slavery.
God didn't hear their prayers because their cause was wicked.
You don't deny the wickedness of the Confederacy and NAZIism. Not even once.
hmmm

I have stated previously the SIN in doing so, yet you have no answer to that.
You have no answer whatsoever about the Biblical and historical precedent of God's refusal to hear or answer prayers on behalf of political wickedness.

I submit that you prefer to support wickedness in the American government rather than pray for (and support) those whom it enslaves and corrupts.
If you'd been born German you'd have made a good NAZI, or a good rebel in the Confederacy.
You have no answer to my statement about God's refusal to hear such prayers.

.......and you call me a fanatic.

 

[Foreigner]

With your last post being the latest example, Yes I am saying you are a fanatic.

Example:
"My undivided allegiance is to Christ, not the government of the united States or any country.
Allegiance demands support in every way.
That's where I draw the line.
That's where we differ."

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Your words.

Unfortunately for you, I have made no statement whatsoever that would give you reason to believe I have that type of allegiance to the US, or that it supercedes my commitment to God. How desperate you must be to make such a dishonest assumption.

Please try to grasp this:

Praying for the United States gov't to do what is right in God's eyes is NOT the same as giving blanket support in all that the U.S. currently does.

As a matter of fact, in many cases it is just the opposite.

I am a little surprised you can't wrap your head around that.





Example 2:
"The German people prayed for their Hitler and the southern people prayed for Confederate slavery.
God didn't hear their prayers because their cause was wicked.
You don't deny the wickedness of the Confederacy and NAZIism. Not even once.
hmmm"

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ Again, your words.

Problem is, your silly unsupported, insulting implication that I fit into that group.

You imply that if someone is praying for their leaders, they are automatically praying their leaders will be successful in their terrible/evil plans.

That is of course an absolutely false premise on your part. One I hope is born out of ignorance and not intentional deceit on you part.

I will type slowly in hopes that you will grasp this:

When...you...pray...for...someone...who...is...doing...evil...you...pray...specifically...that...God...will...cause...them...to...stop...doing...that...evil.

You do not pray - as you so wrongly implied I do - that they are successful in their evil.

Simple stuff, big guy.





As I have said repeatedly, I feel we should pray for our leaders as God requires in His divinely inspired scriptures:

exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


Please quit skipping over it and actually READ IT ^ ^ ^ ^ ^. It prays that our leaders will be influenced in a way that allow us to live a life "in all godliness." That ain't gonna happen unless our leaders are not sinning and going against God.

I can't type any slower or use any smaller words than that. Either you get it or you don't.


It (still) comes down to this:
- God says pray for your leaders
- You say we should not

Following God's instructions will trump what you say every...single...time.

 

[[email protected]]

Following God's instructions will trump what you say every...single...time.

You have provided no such proof of instructions......and continue to quote the same tired line over and over again.

It might be nice if you made a statement that wasn't so two dimensional.

 

[[email protected]]

My best friend died this morning at 8:47am.

A lot of people were praying for him to pull through, but it was an exercise in futility. I was with him until very late last night in his last lucid moments. His body was alternatively racked with spasms of pain and all I could do was sit there. He called for me several times.

This morning he was not very responsive. Took a little food without losing it. In the end he went quietly. My wife and I were present when he breathed his last.

So many people prayed during his illness. Phone calls have all been made now with the sad news.

A lot of prayers went unheard this week. My poor friend is gone now and there is nothing left but tears and empty words and a new hole in the ground.

So keep praying for this country if you must. Your petitions for the continuance of the wickedness of this nations' leaders are about as certain to be answered as those for my poor friend.
In the end you'll be asking the same frustrated questions I'm asking now and getting the same silence in answer.

I know you'll keep praying and telling yourself it will do some good. It won't, but a lie sometimes is all we have.
I was hoping to spare someone else the empty hope, but alas there is nothing but lies and death all around.
Enjoy your prideful petitions while you may. It's all we have in this world.

 

[Foreigner]

I have moved from laughing at your intentional obfuscations to actually worrying about your mental health, rjp.


Trying to tie in the death of a close friend as a way to intentionally lie about what I say we are called to do, and at the same time calling God's scripture "the same tired line" shows you have issues in your life. Apparently 1 Tim.2: 1-2 is not the divinely inspired Word of God, but - as you say - "the same tired line."


I have gone from seeing you as a joke to genuinely feeling sorry for you.


You say, "You have provided no such proof of instructions" but I have:
exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country.


You somehow translate that into, and I quote: "Your petitions for the continuance of the wickedness of this nations' leaders are about as certain to be answered as those for my poor friend."


Using the death of a friend who quite literally isn't even cold yet, to intentionally misconstrue what I have said is as low as it is sick.


It is my sincere opinion that you need to seek professional mental help.


Please do it quickly.




.

 

[[email protected]]

I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country.

I accept your 'say'.

I can agree with that.

What I do not agree with is blind nationalism wrapped in Christian prayers.
I'm not accusing you of that now, just making an observation that it exists and that God does not respect it.

As for seeking help, I spent three weeks trying to make an appointment with the pastor of my church.

Three weeks, Mr. Foreigner.

After three weeks I gave up. The man was too busy, you see.

If you see me as sick, then your vision is as blurry as our eyes were on that awful day we watched our friend die.
It's called grief and it does not always reason well.

 

[goodshepard55]

Well just to add my 2 cents in here...I agree we should pray for our nations, but really the only way to change things are......We Christians get off our backside, get out actively in our neighborhoods, change them by showing who Christ is...not preaching, but being COMMUNITY.....then expand out of the neighborhood to work places...then to the school system...into businesses....into government.....who ever is in charge of a business, educational system...government in our towns....influence our towns, business, or education......Christians have to get into important places to change our nations....why do you think the muslims are having such an effect? ......they are getting into positions to change the systems....not the radical muslims either...but the one next door that seems so quiet and nice...the one that does not know Jesus, because we as children of God only tell them we are Christian.....not hello, my name is ____, I am your neighbor and would like to have a BBQ and I am inviting you along....SHOW God's love...don't preach, and if they start a conversation on being muslim....listen...ask them to ask Jesus into their dreams/visions with mohammad ..when they see him bow before the Lord..they start to ask important questions, that is how they change...we can not argue religion with anyone, we can pray, but we have to get out and try to change the way people see us....we have to show them GOD LOVES ALL.....we have to get into important places.......

Sorry I will get off my soapbox now.....LOVE you my family....

Shep

 

[rockytopva]

Pray without ceasing.- 1 Thessalonians 5:17

Now that's a short verse!

 

[Foreigner]

I accept your 'say'.

I can agree with that.

What I do not agree with is blind nationalism wrapped in Christian prayers.
I'm not accusing you of that now, just making an observation that it exists and that God does not respect it.

As for seeking help, I spent three weeks trying to make an appointment with the pastor of my church.

Three weeks, Mr. Foreigner.

After three weeks I gave up. The man was too busy, you see.

If you see me as sick, then your vision is as blurry as our eyes were on that awful day we watched our friend die.
It's called grief and it does not always reason well.

-- rjp, my issue was that you made accusations towards me that were completely inaccurate.
I showed you time and time again so you would make new accusations and throw scripture having nothing to do with my position to accuse me of several unsubstantiated things.
A persual of your and my previous posts show that clearly.

I am sorry you pastor could not see you for three weeks. I find that inexcusable. In the meantime there are other avenues. Pastors of different churches (I have had to go this route when I was overseas or otherwise out of town) or asking my friends to prompt the pastor as well.

I do see you as having issues. The fact that you chose to ignore statements and decide in your own reality what was really meant is not normal.

The forcefulness and consistency with which you have done this is disconcerting.

Good luck.

 

[[email protected]]

Well just to add my 2 cents in here...I agree we should pray for our nations, but really the only way to change things are......We Christians get off our backside, get out actively in our neighborhoods, change them by showing who Christ is...not preaching, but being COMMUNITY.....then expand out of the neighborhood to work places...then to the school system...into businesses....into government.....who ever is in charge of a business, educational system...government in our towns....influence our towns, business, or education......Christians have to get into important places to change our nations....why do you think the muslims are having such an effect? ......they are getting into positions to change the systems....not the radical muslims either...but the one next door that seems so quiet and nice...the one that does not know Jesus, because we as children of God only tell them we are Christian.....not hello, my name is ____, I am your neighbor and would like to have a BBQ and I am inviting you along....SHOW God's love...don't preach, and if they start a conversation on being muslim....listen...ask them to ask Jesus into their dreams/visions with mohammad ..when they see him bow before the Lord..they start to ask important questions, that is how they change...we can not argue religion with anyone, we can pray, but we have to get out and try to change the way people see us....we have to show them GOD LOVES ALL.....we have to get into important places.......

Sorry I will get off my soapbox now.....LOVE you my family....

Shep

This is exactly my philosophy. Too many Christians state openly and flatly that political involvement (including community action) is wrong. That attitude infuriates me.
"Let's just pray," they say. There is a time to get off one's knees and get to work.

Climb back on your soapbox. It's good to hear that stuff.

The forcefulness and consistency with which you have done this is disconcerting.

If you wish to make an impression on concrete you have to act like a jackhammer.

I didn't attack you personally, just your position.

For the record, I've attempted to see several other church leaders with the same result.
I've stated elsewhere the spiritual desert in central Florida.
I've stated loud and long of the nearly total lack of concern on the part of church leadership for the individual, for the community and for the nation.

There's a lot of fine real estate development going on, though.

 

[Foreigner]

I didn't attack you personally, just your position.

-- On the contrary. A quick perusal of the previous posts shows you both attacked me and misconstrued my position.

 

[[email protected]]

-- On the contrary. A quick perusal of the previous posts shows you both attacked me and misconstrued my position.

And you are innocent of such an attitude yourself?

I've stated time and again and shown effective and truthful examples from the Bible and history that God does not hear prayers uttered on behalf of debauched governments. You have constantly and consistently declared those statements and examples to be in error, providing absolutely nothing to support your own argument except the thin propagandistic device of repetition and character assassination.

(One of the precepts of propaganda is to repeat a slogan over and over and over. Repetition numbs the mind and creates a false legitimacy. NAZI Germany used this method with great success as does modern Communism and American commercial advertising & militarism.)

Repitition does not equate to truth. Neither do your pseudo-medical estimates of my capacity to reason.

In an earlier post you wrote:
"I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country."

Despite your venemous response, I still think this is a good prayer. Not likely to be answered, but a good prayer. My point is that similar ones have been spoken for forty or fifty years and there isn't the remotest sign that they have been heard or will be answered. Things are getting worse, not better.

If you wish to continue to pray for our leaders, whose every design and effort is betrayal of the American people to the financiers and the Pentagon, then knock yourself out.

You'll have calluses on your knees before you see an answer.

What do I pray? I pray for God's mercy upon all those who are called by Christ's name in this country, including you.

If there's something sick about that, then sue me.

 

[Foreigner]

And you are innocent of such an attitude yourself?

I've stated time and again and shown effective and truthful examples from the Bible and history that God does not hear prayers uttered on behalf of debauched governments. You have constantly and consistently declared those statements and examples to be in error, providing absolutely nothing to support your own argument except the thin propagandistic device of repetition and character assassination.

(One of the precepts of propaganda is to repeat a slogan over and over and over. Repetition numbs the mind and creates a false legitimacy. NAZI Germany used this method with great success as does modern Communism and American commercial advertising & militarism.)

Repitition does not equate to truth. Neither do your pseudo-medical estimates of my capacity to reason.

In an earlier post you wrote:
"I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country."

Despite your venemous response, I still think this is a good prayer. Not likely to be answered, but a good prayer. My point is that similar ones have been spoken for forty or fifty years and there isn't the remotest sign that they have been heard or will be answered. Things are getting worse, not better.

If you wish to continue to pray for our leaders, whose every design and effort is betrayal of the American people to the financiers and the Pentagon, then knock yourself out.

You'll have calluses on your knees before you see an answer.

What do I pray? I pray for God's mercy upon all those who are called by Christ's name in this country, including you.

If there's something sick about that, then sue me.

-- Wow, you truly do have issues...

As you pointed out, this was my response: "I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country."

And I used God's Word to support that: exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2

You say I can "misquote" scripture all I want and the say - and I am quoting you:

"This is such a thing as right and wrong.
Using scripture to justify the illegal, unjust, immoral actions of a corrupt government won't get one's prayers heard.

My country right or wrong doesn't work with God. You don't have to be a rocket scientist or theologian to figure that one out.
Unfortunately the idea that "my country" could be wrong is usually over the head of those who see stars and strips instead of the cross (or maybe because the cross lately is covered by the flag).

Ask yourself if your convictions are inspired by American exceptionalist patriotism or from an honest intent to seek God's heart in righteousness and truth.

In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why." - rjp


It is sad when after speaking with you a person is left having to decide whether they should question your honesty or your grasp on reality.


.

 

[goodshepard55]

Thank rjp...I have seen neighborhoods change from one of drugs dealing to quiet streets, one of all night parties to one of ....lets have a family get together for the whole neighborhood.....I have a friend that has just sent our 300 invites to all his neighbors on his block, for a BBQ....guess how many have already RSVP.....ALL....I pray for my area, I see change, but it is because we get out and meet the neighbors, share with our neighbors...when that area is better we move....been in this area now for 3 months and the families are tired of the parties all night...so we are going to change it in our neighborhood with the help of all the neighbors....we share how to do this with others, they ask why we care, then we tell them about how God has shown us this is what community is.....God goes before us, but we have to walk in the steps he has placed before us....so be bold, if your neighbor is a drug dealer start praying to God to move them, but get out there and meet them and the others, bring the others in on the problem and get to moving them out of the neighborhood with good old fashion, I am in your face brother because I love you but really hate the fact you are selling drugs to my neighborhood kids...so let me pray for you...let me help you with some things so you won't have to do this to eat or feed your kids.....works....I can testify to that....

 

[[email protected]]

Hey Shep:

Yes we had a neighbor that was selling drugs. Notice I wrote 'was'. After much prayer I got busy. No BBQ, but other methods which worked well too. I watched while middle school kids came to his doorstep with paper bags and had them filled with dope. The police, as usual, were reluctant to do anything about it - until a fire was lit under them. Bye bye dope guys.

In God's grace several years before that and in another city I witnessed local cops taking bribe money. After working with the FBI, I waited patiently and saw the ENTIRE police force including the chief hauled off to prison. Seems they were dealing with stolen gasoline across state lines. It all started when the Lord had me witness the money exchange. The Lord made me invisible at the time. I stood right out in the open not twenty yards away and they never saw me. One of them was a K9 cop with his dog. Even the pooch didn't see me.

It's not the first time invisibility has happened to me either. Not really invisible, but if people (and dogs) can't see you, then it's the same. On another occasion I stood under a light at night. The only light in the area. Everything else was dark except under the light where I stood. People were looking for me and I saw them walk right by me - never saw me at all. Is that cool or what?

Because of this and other things I don't have a very high regard for police around here. They are as crooked as a dog's hind leg, but with prayer and a miracle or two things sometimes change.

Of course some non-believers might say I'm crazy for saying that - but it's true enough.

Ask yourself if your convictions are inspired by American exceptionalist patriotism or from an honest intent to seek God's heart in righteousness and truth.

Please define what you mean by American exceptionalist patriotism in this sentence.

 

[Foreigner]

Please define what you mean by American exceptionalist patriotism in this sentence.

-- Actually rjp, YOU are going to have to do that. I was quoting you word for word.

Notice in my last post that I am quoting you exactly.

And please don't say you weren't quoted correctly. I cut and paste it from an earlier post of yours in this thread.


Your exact quote again was:

"Ask yourself if your convictions are inspired by American exceptionalist patriotism or from an honest intent to seek God's heart in righteousness and truth." - rjp


You followed that line with this little accusatorial gem:

"In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why." - rjp


I apparently earned that response from you for saying:

"I say God wants us to pray for the leaders of our country in hopes that they will turn away from their wickedness, repent from their evil actions, and do what is best for the citizens of the country."

...and supporting that with the scripture:
exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, [and] giving of thanks, be made for all men; for kings and all that are in high place; that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and gravity." - 1 Tim. 2:1-2


I must confess I am curious how my stance can possibly be translated into - as you accuse:

"In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why." - rjp



.

 

[[email protected]]

I know what I said and what I meant when I wrote about American exceptionalist nationalism.

I perceive, however, that I'm having difficulty with understanding what YOU MEAN when you write such things.

That's why I asked for your definition and clarification.

Constant reiteration of slogans and scripture does little to clarify a dialogue. It only aggravates misunderstanding.

 

[Foreigner]

I know what I said and what I meant when I wrote about American exceptionalist nationalism.

I perceive, however, that I'm having difficulty with understanding what YOU MEAN when you write such things.

That's why I asked for your definition and clarification.

-- You are asking what I meant when it is something YOU said.

Please reread ANY of my posts in this thread. I have NEVER said: ""In all our dialogue, you continue to support the country - never a righteous attitude. I wonder why."

Those are YOUR exact words. I have never said anything of the sort.

Please provide the exact quote I have made or go take your medication.