Predestination vs free will: is there really any conflict in Scripture?

[Jostler]

All don'


All don't have free will

If you're created in God's image, you have free will. And He won't override the free will He created us with. We can choose to reject Him if we insist. Choosing the lake of fire instead of Him certainly doesn't seem to be a smart choice, but if we insist, He will allow that choice to stand. He wants a family, with sons and daughters that CHOOSE to love Him, just like He chose to create us. He gave us free will, and we will be held accountable for how we use it.

 

[Jostler]

Psalm 89:14 NKJV — Righteousness and justice are the foundation of Your throne; Mercy and truth go before Your face.


Righteousness and Justice are as two great foundations undergirding His Throne. Righteousness and Justice are the foundation from which He rules. Justice is not even a comprehensible concept in a world of robots...it doesn't even make sense in a world with no free will. Yet He is uncompromisingly JUST.

 

[n2thelight]

If you're created in God's image, you have free will. And He won't override the free will He created us with. We can choose to reject Him if we insist. Choosing the lake of fire instead of Him certainly doesn't seem to be a smart choice, but if we insist, He will allow that choice to stand. He wants a family, with sons and daughters that CHOOSE to love Him, just like He chose to create us. He gave us free will, and we will be held accountable for how we use it.

What was Paul's free will and why did God interfere in that will ?

I'll let the scripture answer

Acts 9:15 "But the Lord said unto him, "Go thy way: for he is a chosen vessel unto Me, to bear My name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel:"

Now what does it mean to be and when was Paul chosen?

 

[TEXBOW]

I find it difficult to believe that God would (Theological Determinism / Predeterminism )all things before the creation of man. I realize some cling to the belief and will find scriptures they think support it. But if we believe he predestined all things we would have to believe he predestined the rapist, murderer, child molester and all other evil behavior and actions. I cannot accept that. The scriptures tell us in many places that God hates the wicked (Psalm 11:5). Why would he predestine something he hates? I do believe God has foreknowledge of man's choices. I believe that man's free can bring forth sin and all the things God hates. Man's free will is evident in the scripture, just look how many times the pronoun "Whosoever" is used to indicate that man has a choice. God clearly did predetermine he would create man who would live on this earth with a free will.

 

[Kermos]

So, in spite of God's perfect foreknowledge, Saul never besieged Keilah, and the men of Keilah never handed David over to Saul. God "forknew two things...that never happened.

You failed to examine the passage properly before you levied your evil accusation of "So, in spite of God's perfect foreknowledge, Saul never besieged Keilah, and the men of Keilah never handed David over to Saul. God "forknew two things...that never happened" (your words) against God.

First, regarding Saul coming down to Keilah, that process of Saul's travel was currently underway when the Word of God said "He comes down" (1 Samuel 23:11, there are translations that render this as "He will come down", but it is accurate as "He comes down" according to the Hebrew grammar and when the preceding verses alight context).

In a nearby earlier verse, it is written "So Saul summoned all the people for war, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men" (1 Samuel 23:11), so Saul was making way for Keilah.

Your deception regarding your first point in 1 Samuel 23 is exposed.

Second, regarding the men of Keilah surrendering David and David's men to Saul, again the Word of God reveals the intention of the hearts of the men of Keilah with "They are surrendering you" (1 Samuel 23:12, there are translations that render this as "They will surrender you", but it is accurate as "They are surrendering you" according to the Hebrew grammar and when the subsequent verses alight context).

Scriptural evidence shows that the men of Keilah were adversarial to David and David's men for it is written "David had escaped from Keilah" (1 Samuel 23:13). That is not merely departed from Keilah as if amicably, but that is ESCAPED from Keilah.

The men of Keilah's adversarial relationship to David appears to have included the men of Keilah colluding with Saul AT THE TIME THAT THE WORD OF GOD SAID TO DAVID "THEY ARE SURRENDERING YOU" (1 Samuel 23:13).

Your deception regarding your second point in 1 Samuel 23 is exposed.

The Word of God declared events in progress in these passages.

The Word of God did not state that Saul would successfully arrive at Keilah.

The Word of God did not state that the men of Keilah would successfully deliver David and David's men into the hands of Saul.

On the other hand, in this passage, God's foreknowledge is shown to be true because the Word of God did state that David would successfully conquer the Philistines who were fighting against Keilah.

The Word of God commanded "Arise, go down to Keilah, for I will give the Philistines into your hand" (1 Samuel 23:4), and there is prophecy by God about a future event.

Subsequently, it is written "So David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines; and he led away their livestock and struck them with a great slaughter. Thus David delivered the inhabitants of Keilah" (1 Samuel 23:4), and that is a proper example of God's foreknowledge. The prophecy was fulfilled!

Not only do you miserably fail in your endeavor to prove that God's foreknowledge is fallible, but you have successfully proven that you do not know who God says that God is.

God knows all things (John 16:30), and no one can thwart that which God knows will come to pass (Job 42:2).

I do not plan to follow this thread, so please do not expect any subsequent replies from me here. There is a similar post in this thread about Adam not having a freewill which means that no one there after has a free will either.

 

[Tong2020]

What if the future is truly open and God knows many futures? What if it's not predetermined at all?
How would this affect how we live?
Or do we all already live like that is true?

My view is that, God sees and knows both the beginning and the end, not beginnings, not ends. What do you say of all that which happens between the beginning and the end?

Tong
R3884

 

[marks]

What if the future is truly open and God knows many futures? What if it's not predetermined at all?
How would this affect how we live?
Or do we all already live like that is true?

The implication of this would be that God is not omniscient. Either He knows will WILL BE our future, or He does not possess all knowledge.

Much love!

 

[Renniks]

The implication of this would be that God is not omniscient. Either He knows will WILL BE our future, or He does not possess all knowledge.

Much love!

Ok I generally agree, except for when I don't. What if the future is unknowable?

 

[marks]

Ok I generally agree, except for when I don't. What if the future is unknowable?

Unknowable to God?

That would render the Scripture false which says that God knows how something will end even at it's beginning.

Much love!