Predestination vs free will: is there really any conflict in Scripture?

[Jostler]

I'm going to link this thread back to a discussion from another, different thread, so some of the context may be lost on those reading this by itself. But the context isn't really necessary to understand the point I want to make.

This is a single example from the Word, that can potentially influence our biblical understanding of whole range of very controversial biblical topics, such as predestination, election, free will and the security of our salvation.

The answer to the question I posed in the thread title is "no, there are no conflicts in the Bible". The conflicts always come as a result of us misunderstanding the Bible.

(To be continued)

 

[MatthewG]

As long as you don’t jostle me out everything will be okay.

 

[Jostler]

Not my intention MatthewG, but we'll see how the Word unfolds.

 

[Jostler]

The text I want to look at is 1st Samuel 23. In that chapter we get a record of a place where God "forknew" two events, that never happened. The implications we can draw related to foreknowledge, predestination and free will should be self-evident....I think. We'll find out here shortly

 

[Jostler]

The first 5 verses set the stage. David is on the run from Saul, Saul knows David has been anointed King of Israel, but God hasn't yet removed Saul, so Saul is trying to kill David. David is in hiding...basically an "outlaw".

David overhears that the city of Keilah has been attacked by the Philistines, and the food Keilah grew that year is being stolen from them. Evidently Saul has not come to their aid. So David asks the Lord if he and his men should go help deliver Keilah, and their harvest from the Philistines.

 

[Jostler]

1 Samuel 23:1-5 NKJV — Then they told David, saying, “Look, the Philistines are fighting against Keilah, and they are robbing the threshing floors.” Therefore David inquired of the LORD, saying, “Shall I go and attack these Philistines?” And the LORD said to David, “Go and attack the Philistines, and save Keilah.” But David’s men said to him, “Look, we are afraid here in Judah. How much more then if we go to Keilah against the armies of the Philistines?” Then David inquired of the LORD once again. And the LORD answered him and said, “Arise, go down to Keilah. For I will deliver the Philistines into your hand.” And David and his men went to Keilah and fought with the Philistines, struck them with a mighty blow, and took away their livestock. So David saved the inhabitants of Keilah.

 

[Jostler]

God said "yes, go save Keilah". So David and his men did so. God gave them victory and they even plundered the Philistine's livestock. Pretty good result.

 

[Jostler]

But watch what happens next. David and his men entered the city...presumably to celebrate the victory , the harvest being saved and all that. But, Somehow Saul found out .

 

[Jostler]

1 Samuel 23:6-8 NKJV — Now it happened, when Abiathar the son of Ahimelech fled to David at Keilah, that he went down with an ephod in his hand. And Saul was told that David had gone to Keilah. So Saul said, “God has delivered him into my hand, for he has shut himself in by entering a town that has gates and bars.” Then Saul called all the people together for war, to go down to Keilah to besiege David and his men.

 

[Jostler]

Saul figured he had David for good now. David locked himself and his men inside a walled city. Saul figured all he has to do now is surround the city, cut off food and water going in....and just wait. He would tell the leaders of Keilah, "Just give me David, and everything will go back to normal. And if you don't, we'll just sit here until your kids are skinny and we'll starve you out. Just give us David and we go away, and you go on with life"

Siege warfare...

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Honestly, every angle of every contriversal theological point has verses people use for and against it. Free will vs predestination is just one example of this.

Now, can such be resolved by just looking at scripture? For an individual, yes, they can reach thier conclusion. And other person will likely reach another conclusion. So there’s not going to be a single universal answer accepted.

 

[Jostler]

Watch what happens next.

Next thing is David finds out what Saul is doing (spies on both sides must have been many). Anyway, David finds out Saul is mobilizing the army to come after him and his men. So he decides to ask the Lord what is going to happen, and the Lord tells him. David asks the Lord two questions. 1. "Is Saul really going to come down here to destroy Keilah because I'm here? And 2. "Will the men of Keilah force us out of the city?
God answered "yes" to both questions.

 

[Jostler]

1 Samuel 23:9-12 NKJV — When David knew that Saul plotted evil against him, he said to Abiathar the priest, “Bring the ephod here.” Then David said, “O LORD God of Israel, Your servant has certainly heard that Saul seeks to come to Keilah to destroy the city for my sake. “Will the men of Keilah deliver me into his hand? Will Saul come down, as Your servant has heard? O LORD God of Israel, I pray, tell Your servant.” And the LORD said, “He will come down.” Then David said, “Will the men of Keilah deliver me and my men into the hand of Saul?” And the LORD said, “They will deliver you.”

 

[Jostler]

Notice. God positively "foreknew", that Saul was coming to besiege the city, and He "foreknew" that the men of Keilah would turn David over to Saul. Funny thing is NEITHER of those things actually happened!

 

[Jostler]

1 Samuel 23:13 NKJV — So David and his men, about six hundred, arose and departed from Keilah and went wherever they could go. Then it was told Saul that David had escaped from Keilah; so he halted the expedition.

 

[Jostler]

David did what most would do, he CHANGED his mind about staying in Keilah, took his men and fled.

Saul heard about that, and decided to turn the army around and went back home.

 

[Jostler]

So, in spite of God's perfect foreknowledge, Saul never besieged Keilah, and the men of Keilah never handed David over to Saul. God "forknew two things...that never happened.

 

[Jostler]

I'll leave you to work out the implications, but at least in this case, God's perfect foreknowledge...didn't happen. The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

 

[TLHKAJ]

I'll leave you to work out the implications, but at least in this case, God's perfect foreknowledge...didn't happen. The actual outcome was determined by a man's free will choice.

Great summary of a very clear truth! Thank you for taking the time to create this thread.

 

[amigo de christo]

I'm going to link this thread back to a discussion from another, different thread, so some of the context may be lost on those reading this by itself. But the context isn't really necessary to understand the point I want to make.

This is a single example from the Word, that can potentially influence our biblical understanding of whole range of very controversial biblical topics, such as predestination, election, free will and the security of our salvation.

The answer to the question I posed in the thread title is "no, there are no conflicts in the Bible". The conflicts always come as a result of us misunderstanding the Bible.

(To be continued)

Correct there are no contradictions . IF something seems to contradict , its just a lack of our understanding .