Predestination .
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Actually, James 2 does not say anything concerning election. It rather has to do with proper Christian conduct. The context deals with the rich and the poor. Who makes the rich and poor? Who is sovereign over all? As the Scripture says, “The LORD maketh poor, and maketh rich: he bringeth low, and lifteth up” (1 Sam. 2:7). Thus, God makes one person rich and another He makes poor – all for His glory and yet He is NOT a respecter of persons, for to say so would mean that He had “evil thoughts” (Jam. 2:4) and is a sinner (Jam. 2:9). Rather, God, the Judge of all the earth, does right in making one poor and another rich. “Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?” (Rom 9:21). God makes us as it pleases Him.Matthew does not appear to believe that the God of all the earth is a respecter of persons when he writes:
Matt. 11:20-26 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
As seen above, at times in God’s sovereignty and providence, he DOES NOT do certain things for certain people that WOULD LEAD to repentance for them. Rather, He literally hides His salvation from some (1 Cor. 2:6-16) and Christ says this is good in His Father's sight. The Judge of all the earth, does right – So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy (Rom. 9:16). We may not always understand His ways – which are higher than our ways and thoughts (Isa. 55:8-9), but this does give us the right to say “there unrighteousness with God?” (Rom. 9:14).As far as “free-will” there is no such thing. Even God does not have “free-will.”
Matt. 11:20-26 Then began he to upbraid the cities wherein most of his mighty works were done, because they repented not: Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes. But I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for Tyre and Sidon at the day of judgment, than for you. And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day. But I say unto you, That it shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom in the day of judgment, than for thee. At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes. Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
As seen above, at times in God’s sovereignty and providence, he DOES NOT do certain things for certain people that WOULD LEAD to repentance for them. Rather, He literally hides His salvation from some (1 Cor. 2:6-16) and Christ says this is good in His Father's sight. The Judge of all the earth, does right – So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy (Rom. 9:16). We may not always understand His ways – which are higher than our ways and thoughts (Isa. 55:8-9), but this does give us the right to say “there unrighteousness with God?” (Rom. 9:14).As far as “free-will” there is no such thing. Even God does not have “free-will.”
Eagle-- thank you very much
I appreciate you helping me outand when I don't understand, that is exactly what I tell myself. I know that the Lord is fair in His judgement, and He is good. but I don't understand why He would hide salvation from others. Can you help me out on this?
(Morning_Joy;34556)
Eagle-- thank you very much
I appreciate you helping me outand when I don't understand, that is exactly what I tell myself. I know that the Lord is fair in His judgement, and He is good. but I don't understand why He would hide salvation from others. Can you help me out on this?
As already proven from Scripture that is His will in some cases (Matt. 13:10-15). He chose whom His elect were before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11). The sheep not the goats, the wheat not the tares were written in the Lambs Book of Life from before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; 17:8). Thus, as God is sovereign in all he moves history in His own direction. The names in His Book are His word: “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it” (Isa. 55:11).However. some will mistakenly insist that this is unfair (Rom. 9:14). But God as the Judge of all the earth, is under no obligation to save any. He could, as He did with fallen angels, provide no salvation and still be holy, just, and good. But in His mercy (Rom. 9:15) He choose some according to His pleasure and counsel (Eph. 1:5, 11). His choice was based upon nothing in us or anything we would do. As John states, “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13; Rom. 9:11, 16). As Paul states if you attempt to make this a work of man in any sense of the word, "it is no more of grace" (Rom. 11:6).
Eagle-- thank you very much
As already proven from Scripture that is His will in some cases (Matt. 13:10-15). He chose whom His elect were before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1:4-11). The sheep not the goats, the wheat not the tares were written in the Lambs Book of Life from before the foundation of the world (Rev. 13:8; 17:8). Thus, as God is sovereign in all he moves history in His own direction. The names in His Book are His word: “So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it” (Isa. 55:11).However. some will mistakenly insist that this is unfair (Rom. 9:14). But God as the Judge of all the earth, is under no obligation to save any. He could, as He did with fallen angels, provide no salvation and still be holy, just, and good. But in His mercy (Rom. 9:15) He choose some according to His pleasure and counsel (Eph. 1:5, 11). His choice was based upon nothing in us or anything we would do. As John states, “Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:13; Rom. 9:11, 16). As Paul states if you attempt to make this a work of man in any sense of the word, "it is no more of grace" (Rom. 11:6).
I agree with youyou are right. Even if God had not made us, He would still be God. I think it says something about that in the book of Malachi, or Micah. but in my opinion, I think God lets people choose Him. I believe God knew who would choose Him, so He called them His elect. Maybe God could say "Okay, you're coming to be with me for all eternity.", if He wanted to. Well, there's probably a better way to write that out. But anyway, I think that since we recognize that God is good and just in all His ways, I should always remember that. I'm not saying that my belief on God is necessarily correct; it's just something I strongly believe in. I will give you guys an example. You don't have to agree with me.
But if I miss anything, please let me know. remember Adam and Eve in Eden? God knew that they would rebel against Him, yet He showed love to them anyway. But He did set boundries. He provided the perfect fellowship with their Creator, but unfortunately, they listened to Satan instead. Does this mean that God's love wasn't sufficient, or that it was wrong for Him to have fellowship with them? Of course not. God didn't fail to love them; instead, they failed to love God.
In the same way, I believe God has provided the perfect salvation for all of us. I believe He wants us ALL to accept Him. But not everybody will accept His gift on the cross.
Morning_Joy said,but in my opinion, I think God lets people choose Him. I believe God knew who would choose Him, so He called them His elect.
First, if I agreed with you here (respectfully, I do not) then you still have the same problem you are attempting to avoid. You are attempting to protect God from being “unjust” in election. Your intentions are noble. However, if God, who knows all and who foreordains all, knows that a person will not choose Christ (and He does) and does not change it, then God still foreordained them to Hell. This is passive, but it is still God’s foreordination. Thus, you have not solved your problem. God could have changed it, but did not.Second, much of the confusion here is in the false doctrine of free-will. Even God does not have a free-will. God cannot deny His holy nature. It is impossible for God to lie, die, or sin. God’s will is not free, but rather bound to His holy nature. God cannot will to die. God cannot will to lie. God cannot will to sin. His nature is both love and just – not some love and some justice, but 100% love and 100% justice. Man, made in God’s image, is also bound to his nature, but his nature is not holy. Since the Fall, God says man is “dead” in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1, 5). His will is not free to choose God – dead men do not choose. Christ reveals through His miracles man’s total inability. The blind cannot not see, until Jesus heals them. The man with a withered hand cannot reach out till his hand is healed. The lame may not walk to God, until they are made whole. The deaf and mute cannot hear or speak the Gospel, until they are healed. Man has no ability in himself to choose…. Nor in his hating God does he desire too … They are like Lazarus in the grave. The resurrection words must be called forth by the Spirit and then the grave cloths may be removed.Third, part of the problem in understanding this is observing the ordo salutis. This is the order of salvation. Typically, the list of events looks like this: election, effectual calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. The scripture states that man will be willing in the day of His power. The elect are first called and then regenerated so they can see (John 3:3) and enter (John 3:5) into the Kingdom of God. Regeneration comes before choosing, because otherwise one would never as dead men and literal haters of God, choose God. Without regeneration first, “There is none that seeketh after God” (Rom. 3:11). If choosing salvation is good, then we must first be regenerated because, “there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3:12).Now since God knows His elect, He knows whom will choose Him, because He enables them through regeneration to choose Him. Thus, God foreknows because He has foreordained. Fourth, your system makes salvation a work of your choosing first. If it is of works then it is no more of grace (Rom. 11:6). This is contrary to scripture (Eph. 2:8-10).
Morning_Joy said,In the same way, I believe God has provided the perfect salvation for all of us. I believe He wants us ALL to accept Him. But not everybody will accept His gift on the cross.
I am not sure what you were attempting to prove/state by your example of Adam and Eve before the fall – whom differ from us who are born into iniquity (Psa. 51:5). However, I will respond to this statement above. You state that:
1. God provides a perfect salvation for all.2. But not everybody will accept His gift on the cross.
Let us examine this. If God has provided a perfect salvation for all then that means He has forgiven every sin in the whole world that was, is, and could ever be committed. That is every sin without exception. Now you say not everyone accepts this gift! However, is not unbelief a sin? Is it not a sin for which Christ died? If not, then none could be saved. If so, then according to your “belief” all must be saved. However, I am sure that you would agree with me that not everyone is saved - Universalism. Christ died for the sins of the elect. He died for their sins only. He died for all their sins – even their sin of unbelief. I agree that man does choose Christ, BUT only after they are first regenerated.
First, if I agreed with you here (respectfully, I do not) then you still have the same problem you are attempting to avoid. You are attempting to protect God from being “unjust” in election. Your intentions are noble. However, if God, who knows all and who foreordains all, knows that a person will not choose Christ (and He does) and does not change it, then God still foreordained them to Hell. This is passive, but it is still God’s foreordination. Thus, you have not solved your problem. God could have changed it, but did not.Second, much of the confusion here is in the false doctrine of free-will. Even God does not have a free-will. God cannot deny His holy nature. It is impossible for God to lie, die, or sin. God’s will is not free, but rather bound to His holy nature. God cannot will to die. God cannot will to lie. God cannot will to sin. His nature is both love and just – not some love and some justice, but 100% love and 100% justice. Man, made in God’s image, is also bound to his nature, but his nature is not holy. Since the Fall, God says man is “dead” in trespasses and sin (Eph. 2:1, 5). His will is not free to choose God – dead men do not choose. Christ reveals through His miracles man’s total inability. The blind cannot not see, until Jesus heals them. The man with a withered hand cannot reach out till his hand is healed. The lame may not walk to God, until they are made whole. The deaf and mute cannot hear or speak the Gospel, until they are healed. Man has no ability in himself to choose…. Nor in his hating God does he desire too … They are like Lazarus in the grave. The resurrection words must be called forth by the Spirit and then the grave cloths may be removed.Third, part of the problem in understanding this is observing the ordo salutis. This is the order of salvation. Typically, the list of events looks like this: election, effectual calling, regeneration, faith, repentance, justification, adoption, sanctification, perseverance, glorification. The scripture states that man will be willing in the day of His power. The elect are first called and then regenerated so they can see (John 3:3) and enter (John 3:5) into the Kingdom of God. Regeneration comes before choosing, because otherwise one would never as dead men and literal haters of God, choose God. Without regeneration first, “There is none that seeketh after God” (Rom. 3:11). If choosing salvation is good, then we must first be regenerated because, “there is none that doeth good, no, not one” (Rom. 3:12).Now since God knows His elect, He knows whom will choose Him, because He enables them through regeneration to choose Him. Thus, God foreknows because He has foreordained. Fourth, your system makes salvation a work of your choosing first. If it is of works then it is no more of grace (Rom. 11:6). This is contrary to scripture (Eph. 2:8-10).
Morning_Joy said,In the same way, I believe God has provided the perfect salvation for all of us. I believe He wants us ALL to accept Him. But not everybody will accept His gift on the cross.
I am not sure what you were attempting to prove/state by your example of Adam and Eve before the fall – whom differ from us who are born into iniquity (Psa. 51:5). However, I will respond to this statement above. You state that:
1. God provides a perfect salvation for all.2. But not everybody will accept His gift on the cross.
Let us examine this. If God has provided a perfect salvation for all then that means He has forgiven every sin in the whole world that was, is, and could ever be committed. That is every sin without exception. Now you say not everyone accepts this gift! However, is not unbelief a sin? Is it not a sin for which Christ died? If not, then none could be saved. If so, then according to your “belief” all must be saved. However, I am sure that you would agree with me that not everyone is saved - Universalism. Christ died for the sins of the elect. He died for their sins only. He died for all their sins – even their sin of unbelief. I agree that man does choose Christ, BUT only after they are first regenerated.
Eagle Thats ridiculous that Christ died only for the sins of the Elect trash doctrine Christ did die for all sin for all time for all. DO NOT SELL CHRISTS DEATH SHORTTo say differnt is to make this entire exsistance in the flesh a Big Joke God is playing on us all. Why even bother to have us go through this testing of flesh what would be the reason if all had already been selected?? This Calvanistic predestination of all is a false doctrine of men it isnt Biblical and it certally isnt what Christ taught. Like I said before if it wasnt for the fact that this doctrine accepts Christ it would be the anti religion it litterally discounts all that the plan of God is about.What did God say he wants above all? Our love thats why he gave us free will to come to him of our own free will grace is offered to all not all will claim it but this is not predestined or there would be no point God would have just saved the ones he knew would love and and come to him and killed the rest. He wouldnt have needed Christ or a plan of salvation.
John 4:42 - And said unto the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world.I John 4:14 - And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.II Peter 3:9 - The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.JagLovest thou in Christ Yahshua, Lord and Saviour of the world.
(Morning_Joy;34138)
I don't understandif they believe that God elected some to salvation, why do they not believe He elected some to go to hell?
Because of scripture passages that were given .Did you look them up in your bible?
I don't understandif they believe that God elected some to salvation, why do they not believe He elected some to go to hell?
Because of scripture passages that were given .Did you look them up in your bible?
Only one has been judged to perish Morning_joy and that is Satan everyone else can change their mind up to the last second of their own free will and chose to accept the grace that is offered
Eagle--I do not feel God is unjust in any way, and I'm not trying to protect Him from being "unjust" in election. I am only trying to protect His holy word. I'm not trying to make a false doctrine here. This is what I believe, and I base it on the Bible. I agree with the verses superjag used above. I used Adam and Eve as an example of those who reject God's gift. When Adam and Eve were created, they had a perfect fellowship with our Creator. But they were tempted by Satan in the garden, and they disobeyed God. Does this mean that it was wrong for God to love them in the first place, and surround them with His loving presence? of course not. God knew what they were going to do, yet He didn't love them any less. If God didn't create us, He wouldn't cease to be God. But He chose to create us so that we may love Him and He may love us; this is a perfect relationship.
The Creator with the created. Take a look at these three verses; I strongly believe these mean something: Genesis 3:9 "Then the Lord God called to the man, “Where are you?”John 1:14 "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us."Revelation 21:3 "And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God."In the Garden, God sought Adam. And I believe God seeks for each one of us to repent so that we may enter His kingdom through the sacrifice of His Son. It is written in God's word:Ezekiel 18:23 "Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?"Ezekiel 18:32 "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign LORD. Repent and live!" Luke 5:32 "I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance."2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."Jesus came to "seek and save what was lost." Luke 19:10I believe this is shown by Him making His dwelling among us. He seeked to save us and to restore what was broken in the garden of Eden: a relationship with the Creator. I believe He died for all of us. Jesus did not fail. He conquered death on the cross! Now, if someone is truly sorry for their sins, and they truly repent, they are a new creature in Christ and the righteousness of Christ in God's eyes. I believe God has called all of us to repentance, so that we may live a new life of forgiveness and a restored fellowship with the Lord. I am not suggesting that everyone should believe me and follow my belief. I'm not perverting God's word in any way. I am only stating what I believe, and I back up my belief with Scripture.
(kriss;34619)
Eagle Thats ridiculous that Christ died only for the sins of the Elect trash doctrine Christ did die for all sin for all time for all. DO NOT SELL CHRISTS DEATH SHORTTo say differnt is to make this entire exsistance in the flesh a Big Joke God is playing on us all. Why even bother to have us go through this testing of flesh what would be the reason if all had already been selected?? This Calvanistic predestination of all is a false doctrine of men it isnt Biblical and it certally isnt what Christ taught. Like I said before if it wasnt for the fact that this doctrine accepts Christ it would be the anti religion it litterally discounts all that the plan of God is about.What did God say he wants above all? Our love thats why he gave us free will to come to him of our own free will grace is offered to all not all will claim it but this is not predestined or there would be no point God would have just saved the ones he knew would love and and come to him and killed the rest. He wouldnt have needed Christ or a plan of salvation.
Where is your biblical evidence?
Eagle Thats ridiculous that Christ died only for the sins of the Elect trash doctrine Christ did die for all sin for all time for all. DO NOT SELL CHRISTS DEATH SHORTTo say differnt is to make this entire exsistance in the flesh a Big Joke God is playing on us all. Why even bother to have us go through this testing of flesh what would be the reason if all had already been selected?? This Calvanistic predestination of all is a false doctrine of men it isnt Biblical and it certally isnt what Christ taught. Like I said before if it wasnt for the fact that this doctrine accepts Christ it would be the anti religion it litterally discounts all that the plan of God is about.What did God say he wants above all? Our love thats why he gave us free will to come to him of our own free will grace is offered to all not all will claim it but this is not predestined or there would be no point God would have just saved the ones he knew would love and and come to him and killed the rest. He wouldnt have needed Christ or a plan of salvation.
Where is your biblical evidence?
(Morning_Joy;34138)
I don't understandif they believe that God elected some to salvation, why do they not believe He elected some to go to hell?
Morning_Joy,I appreciate your patience and your attempt to understand such a difficult subject. I struggled myself for years before it became clearer. As you study it will clear up some, though some mystery concerning this topic, the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, etc. will always be existent in all of us.Your will never read in the Bible the term “un-elect.” However, when this term is used in theology it means those whom God passed over and did not give His grace. The Bible clearly says that God’s grace is a gift – and none of us, including God are obligated to give a gift to everybody. Not one of you gave me a gift this past Christmas. Are you unholy, not right, because you did such a thing – NO. When we understand election as God’s sovereign choice of some persons to be saved, then there is necessarily another aspect of that choice, namely, God’s sovereign decision to pass over others and not to save them. This decision of God in eternity past is normally called reprobation (referring to the un-elect, the non-elect, etc.). Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice.In many ways, the doctrine of reprobation is one of the most difficult of all the teachings of Scripture for us to think about and to accept, because it deals with such horrible and eternal consequences for individuals made in the image of God. The love that God gives us for our fellow human beings and the love that he commands us to have toward our neighbor cause us to recoil against this doctrine, and it is right that we feel such dread in contemplating it. It is something that we would not want to believe, and would not believe, unless Scripture clearly taught it.But are there Scripture passages that speak of such a decision by God? Certainly, there are some. Jude speaks of some persons “who long ago were designated for this condemnation ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ” (Jude 4). Moreover, Paul, in the Romans 9, speaks in the same way of Pharaoh and others:
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills....What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? (Rom. 9:17–22).
Regarding the results of the fact that God failed to choose all for salvation, Paul says, “The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” (Rom. 11:7). And Peter says of those who reject the gospel, “they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do” (1 Pet. 2:8). Is Peter contradicting himself in 2 Peter 3:9 (Savior of the world) – see my other post – and how can Scripture contradict itself?In spite of the fact that we recoil against this doctrine, we must be careful of our attitude toward God and toward these passages of Scripture. We must never begin to wish that the Bible was written in another way, or that it did not contain these verses. Moreover, if we are convinced that these verses teach reprobation, then we are obligated both to believe it and accept it as fair and just of God, even though it still causes us to tremble in horror as we think of it. In this context, it may surprise us to see that Jesus can thank God both for hiding the knowledge of salvation from some and for revealing it to others:
Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was your gracious will" (Matt. 11:25–26).
Moreover, we must recognize that somehow, in God’s wisdom, the fact of reprobation and the eternal condemnation of some will show God’s justice and also result in his glory. Paul says, “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction” (Rom. 9:22). Paul also notes that the fact of such punishment on the “vessels of wrath” serves to show the greatness of God’s mercy toward us: God does this “in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy” (Rom. 9:23).We also must remember that there are important differences between election and reprobation as they are presented in the Bible. Election to salvation is viewed as a cause for rejoicing and praise to God, who is worthy of praise and receives all the credit for our salvation (Eph. 1:3–6; 1 Pet. 1:1–3). God is viewed as actively choosing us for salvation, and doing so in love and with delight. However, reprobation is viewed as something that brings God sorrow, not delight (Ezek. 33:11), and the blame for the condemnation of sinners is always put on the people or angels who rebel, never on God himself (John 3:18–19; 5:40). Therefore, in the presentation of Scripture the cause of election lies in God, and the cause of reprobation lies in the sinner. Another important difference is that the ground of election is God’s grace, whereas the ground of reprobation is God’s justice. The sorrow of God at the death of the wicked (“I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live,” Ezek. 33:11) helps us understand how appropriate it was that Paul himself felt great sorrow when he thought about the unbelieving Jews who had rejected Christ. Paul says:
I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. They are Israelites....(Rom. 9:1–4)
We ought also to feel this great sorrow as well when we think about the fate of unbelievers.But it might be objected at this point, if God genuinely feels sorrow at the punishment of the wicked, then why does he allow it or even decree that it will come about? The answer must be that God knows that this will ultimately result in greater glory for himself. It will show his power and wrath and justice and mercy in a way that could not otherwise be demonstrated. Certainly, in our own human experience it is possible to do something that causes us great sorrow but which we know will result in long-term greater good. And so, after this faint human analogy, we may somewhat understand that God can decree something that causes him sorrow yet ultimately will further his glory.
I don't understandif they believe that God elected some to salvation, why do they not believe He elected some to go to hell?
Morning_Joy,I appreciate your patience and your attempt to understand such a difficult subject. I struggled myself for years before it became clearer. As you study it will clear up some, though some mystery concerning this topic, the Trinity, the two natures of Christ, etc. will always be existent in all of us.Your will never read in the Bible the term “un-elect.” However, when this term is used in theology it means those whom God passed over and did not give His grace. The Bible clearly says that God’s grace is a gift – and none of us, including God are obligated to give a gift to everybody. Not one of you gave me a gift this past Christmas. Are you unholy, not right, because you did such a thing – NO. When we understand election as God’s sovereign choice of some persons to be saved, then there is necessarily another aspect of that choice, namely, God’s sovereign decision to pass over others and not to save them. This decision of God in eternity past is normally called reprobation (referring to the un-elect, the non-elect, etc.). Reprobation is the sovereign decision of God before creation to pass over some persons, in sorrow deciding not to save them, and to punish them for their sins, and thereby to manifest his justice.In many ways, the doctrine of reprobation is one of the most difficult of all the teachings of Scripture for us to think about and to accept, because it deals with such horrible and eternal consequences for individuals made in the image of God. The love that God gives us for our fellow human beings and the love that he commands us to have toward our neighbor cause us to recoil against this doctrine, and it is right that we feel such dread in contemplating it. It is something that we would not want to believe, and would not believe, unless Scripture clearly taught it.But are there Scripture passages that speak of such a decision by God? Certainly, there are some. Jude speaks of some persons “who long ago were designated for this condemnation ungodly persons who pervert the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ” (Jude 4). Moreover, Paul, in the Romans 9, speaks in the same way of Pharaoh and others:
For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills....What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction? (Rom. 9:17–22).
Regarding the results of the fact that God failed to choose all for salvation, Paul says, “The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened” (Rom. 11:7). And Peter says of those who reject the gospel, “they stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do” (1 Pet. 2:8). Is Peter contradicting himself in 2 Peter 3:9 (Savior of the world) – see my other post – and how can Scripture contradict itself?In spite of the fact that we recoil against this doctrine, we must be careful of our attitude toward God and toward these passages of Scripture. We must never begin to wish that the Bible was written in another way, or that it did not contain these verses. Moreover, if we are convinced that these verses teach reprobation, then we are obligated both to believe it and accept it as fair and just of God, even though it still causes us to tremble in horror as we think of it. In this context, it may surprise us to see that Jesus can thank God both for hiding the knowledge of salvation from some and for revealing it to others:
Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to babes; yea, Father, for such was your gracious will" (Matt. 11:25–26).
Moreover, we must recognize that somehow, in God’s wisdom, the fact of reprobation and the eternal condemnation of some will show God’s justice and also result in his glory. Paul says, “What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power has endured with much patience the vessels of wrath made for destruction” (Rom. 9:22). Paul also notes that the fact of such punishment on the “vessels of wrath” serves to show the greatness of God’s mercy toward us: God does this “in order to make known the riches of his glory for the vessels of mercy” (Rom. 9:23).We also must remember that there are important differences between election and reprobation as they are presented in the Bible. Election to salvation is viewed as a cause for rejoicing and praise to God, who is worthy of praise and receives all the credit for our salvation (Eph. 1:3–6; 1 Pet. 1:1–3). God is viewed as actively choosing us for salvation, and doing so in love and with delight. However, reprobation is viewed as something that brings God sorrow, not delight (Ezek. 33:11), and the blame for the condemnation of sinners is always put on the people or angels who rebel, never on God himself (John 3:18–19; 5:40). Therefore, in the presentation of Scripture the cause of election lies in God, and the cause of reprobation lies in the sinner. Another important difference is that the ground of election is God’s grace, whereas the ground of reprobation is God’s justice. The sorrow of God at the death of the wicked (“I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live,” Ezek. 33:11) helps us understand how appropriate it was that Paul himself felt great sorrow when he thought about the unbelieving Jews who had rejected Christ. Paul says:
I am speaking the truth in Christ, I am not lying; my conscience bears me witness in the Holy Spirit, that I have great sorrow and unceasing anguish in my heart. For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by race. They are Israelites....(Rom. 9:1–4)
We ought also to feel this great sorrow as well when we think about the fate of unbelievers.But it might be objected at this point, if God genuinely feels sorrow at the punishment of the wicked, then why does he allow it or even decree that it will come about? The answer must be that God knows that this will ultimately result in greater glory for himself. It will show his power and wrath and justice and mercy in a way that could not otherwise be demonstrated. Certainly, in our own human experience it is possible to do something that causes us great sorrow but which we know will result in long-term greater good. And so, after this faint human analogy, we may somewhat understand that God can decree something that causes him sorrow yet ultimately will further his glory.
Eagle--If you believe God is limited to saving only some, then why did God create everybody else? Why doesn't God just make everyone perish except His elect?I believe it's because everybody exists by His will. Revelation 4:11 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive glory and honor and power, for you created all things, and by your will they were created and have their being."God doesn't show favoritism. He doesn't choose some to be saved, and some not to. Instead, like I previously posted, I believe He allows anyone to come to Him in sincere repentance. God's word even says being a respecter of persons is a sin.Why would God want to reject anyone who would come to Him in truth?2 Peter 3:9 "The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to you-ward, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance."I noticed that you added the word "elect". This verse doesn't say "elect", it says "any" and "all". If he meant to say "all of the elect", he would have said that. He didn't say "all of you", either. I believe all means all. If I say "Any may come to my birthday party", I'm saying that if someone wishes to come with me to my birthday party, they may come if they are sincere about it. I didn't limit certain people; I said "any".
Jon-Marc
New Member
I cannot and will not believe that God would give us a free will, and then deprive us of that free will by not allowing us to choose whether or not we want to accept Him. Adam and Eve CHOSE to disobey God and eat of the forbidden fruit. It wasn't a matter of not having a choice. If they had no choice, then why give them the opportunity to choose, which God did? Of course, God knew they would eat of the tree, but He still gave them the opportunity not to do so. Also, if we have no choice, then God is unjust in condemning anyone when they have no choice in the matter.
As far as superjag’s verses they need to be interpreted in context. See my explanation to him in the other post.
When Adam and Eve were created they were created PERFECT. There was no sin in them. After they sinned God still proved His love for them by making them garments of animal skin. Blood was spilled – i.e. an example of atonement made. God loved(s) Adam and Eve – and I do not say differently. However, in your explaination of things you left out God’s view on justice. He judged the human race in Adam (Gen 3:14-19; Rom. 5:12-18). Where you ONLY concentrated on the “love of God” the Scripture also includes the “justice of God.” This is an unbalanced view of who God is. This is also seen in the church today. If I asked almost anyone here if they can quote John 3:16, most, if not all would say, “Yes.” However, if I asked if anyone here can quote John 3:17-21, much which deals with God’s justice, I doubt if there would be that could fulfill this task. Much of the churches view of God is scewed ….
Yes they do mean something:
And why did call to Adam and Eve? Was it because they were WILLING to commune with God? No, they went and hid (Gen. 3:11). They not only did some general hiding but they covered their own nakedness with fig leaves (Gen. 3:7) attempting to hid behind other parts of God’s perfect creation. God called them (and He already knew where they were at -- omniscience) to demonstrate that He must first seek out those that are lost. God is seen as saving them in his covering them with the first blood shed upon earth (Heb. 9:22). Note it was God that covered them and not they that covered themselves (Gen. 3:21). This shows that Adam and Eve were elect. Nowhere does it say that God treats all mankind as if they are elect – rather the Bible also teaches reprobation in the same chapter seen in the “seed” of the serpent, in Cain in the following chapter, and it may be traced throughout the rest of Scripture ….
God's presence on earth does not disprove His election -- rather it is the outworking of election.
This speaks of the elect already in heaven. This speaks of the bride – the invisible church (Rev. 21:3; Eph. 5:25-33). Moreover, this cannot include the whole human race as it comes after the judgment of the reprobate in Rev. 20:11-15.
Yes, God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but this does not stop Him from (1) first appointing their death (Heb. 9:27) and (2) judging them for their sins (Rev. 20:11-15). No one enjoys going into surgery for cancer or …., but we still do it. See my post about reprobation ….
See my post about reprobation ….
Here you have proven election and reprobation! Jesus did NOT come to call certain people – those whom He refers to as righteous – that is the “self” righteous. However, He did come to call those whom He calls sinners – those who recognize they are sinners, which is a gift of the Holy Spirit (2 Tim. 2:24-26).
See my previous post on 2 Peter 3:9.
Yes, but the verse before this, verse 9, states, “Jesus said to him, "Today salvation has come to this house, because this man, too, is a son of Abraham.” The “lost” is identified as the true seed of Abraham, whom are all lost until Christ seeks them out and saves them! Paul says, “And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise” (Gal. 3:29).
The Scripture says for his own glory. Paul says in Romans 9:17-24:
God is longsuffering, but His judgment is coming. – see Romans 9 above
Yes, everyone exists by His will – He is sovereign. However, He makes some vessels of honor and other for dishonor. – See Romans 9 above.
Can you prove this from Romans 9? Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated?
What evidence do you have that the enemies of God, the haters of God, desire to come? The Scripture says that NONE seek after God (Rom. 3:11). They are dead in trespasses and sins and have no ability to come (Eph. 2:1, 5). There is “no fear of God before their eyes” (Rom. 3:18).As Jesus said, “No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44) and “But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father” (John 6:64-65).
And what would you do if the whole world showed up. Truthfully, you would not be prepared for this event, because that is not what you meant by the term “any.” You meant “any” within all those in the sound of your voice. Thus, you yourself “limit” the term.Is the term “all” ever used in a “limited” way in Scripture? Does the word “all” in scripture always mean all men without exception or may it mean something else at times? As we will discover, the word all almost never carries the sense of all men without exception. Terms are restricted by their biblical context for their meaning. For instance, speaking to his disciples, Jesus said in Matthew 10:22:
Do you hate the disciples? I would hope not! Neither did the disciples hate one another – save maybe Judas. Christ, fully man (and God), did not hate all the disciples. Thus, the use of a biblical term must be seen in their context. Would it not be better to understand the use of all men above as meaning “many” or “all kinds or sorts of men?”Look at another example in Mark 11:29-33 (KJV):
Did everyone without exception consider John the Baptist a prophet – a true prophet? If the chief priests, and the scribes, and the elders (Mark 11:27) did then Jesus would not be having this discussion! This cannot mean all men without exception, for many of the Pharisees did not regard John as a prophet. It simply means that most people among them regarded John a prophet.How does John use the term all men? Does he always use it of every person without exception? John 3:26 states:
Does this mean that everyone without exception was being baptized? Did all the scribes and Pharisees come? Were they all baptized too? Is this what we are suppose to understand? No, for if this was the case Jesus would have had no enemies, for “all” would have already repented. This simply means John (Matt. 3:5-6; Mark. 1:5) was baptizing a great number of all kinds of people.You and I use the terms all and all men in similar ways when we speak today. An attorney cordially says to his secretary, “Bring me all the documents.” Does he mean all the documents in the world, or all the documents in his office, or all the documents for a particular case? Context would give us the meaning, but this attorney would have to have a huge desk to hold all the documents in the world! Though we, and the Bible, use such terms in such ways we are not lying; we are just using common everyday language to express things in a way a common person would understand them. Acts 26:4 states:
Did all the Jewish babies know who Paul was? Moreover, the Jews were scattered in many nations. This cannot mean that all the Jews scattered throughout the world knew of Paul. Nor, does this mean that every Jew within Israel knew Paul personally. It simply means that a great number of Jews knew Paul’s manner of life.Thus, when the phrase all men is used in different contexts we must ask – “What does this mean in this context?” You all have a nice day, I need to do some work. :angel9:
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