Proof: being born-again is different than being “baptized with the Holy Spirit”

[Rex]

Here's the problem I see and why I view the Pentecostal faith at arms length. It because tongues are the keystone of pentecostal belief, its there foundational testimony its a part of worship its the sign of being of the pentecostal faith. It is the central point. The faith threw belief rotates around this gift. Yet its not necessary nor is it taught that it must be manifest in every spirit baptism.

My observation with the flood of TV evangelist like Mike Murdoch and Benny Hen, most of these men have for the most part given secular people much in the way of discrediting the gospel, from purchasing gods blessings to witnessing bazaar manifestations "slain in the spirit" even speaking in tongues with no interpretation, You can follow most of these TV teachers roots right back to a pentecostal type church. They proudly and apparently demonstrate the power of god at their own discretion, and this comes to the very heart of the matter. The name it and claim it crews, Jesus set examples for us, in doing so, He himself said that the Father is greater than He. He prayed and asked the Father in one of his most reveling prayers before he went to the cross it included not my will but your will. This humility is completely absent in the Pentecostal form of worship. It looks very similar to Numbers 20 when Moses said, to the people “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” Do you see some self edification in these words?

If this rock as I believe represents Christ risen, Moses is in effect not approaching it in humility nor is he speaking to it, instead he speaks to the people in a self edifying manor then strikes "demands" the rock bring its gift. This my friend is a warning about self edification by thinking you yourself command and weld the staff of God. In the same way these TV teachers command the spirit of god, but yet Jesus asked that the spirit be sent he didn't command, "I shall ask the Father and He will send". No man knows from where it comes from or where it goes.

One the of most abused verse is "If I be in you and you be in me ask what ever you wish" If you truly be in Christ do you think you are fulfilling Gods plan by edifying yourself and asking for gifts that will not last? Jesus himself had no place to lay his head, do you see him praying for the comforts of the world? Oh please Father give me a home and a few servants, no instead we always see him praying to and for the glory of God be manifest and even in that asking not demanding, he was obedient unto death, today people are obedient so long as the ride is nice and comfy. These men have received their reward, they stand before men and proudly display there ability to command god and receive the treasure the world chases after. I have heard Murdock say many times "paraphrased" just send me a $1000 seed, just believe in me and what I teach and god will give you the desires of your heart $$$ jackpot. The desires of the heart just keep that in mind as you pray and come before God,

Even the healing of your body, I have heard and seen testimony about people that chase these TV preachers around from place to place to be healed, to me that revels something about there hearts, "it all about me baby" its all about me. There not content there not happy there not walking in faith that God will provide just as Israel demonstrated in the wilderness, no matter how many times the Lord delivered them they never learned to be content, they never entered into the rest found in the Lord.

These are the hearts of people people that follow God with false motives and self edifying hearts committed to themselves instead of God. And guess what Gods going to give them just what they have asked for. The desire of their heart.

Numbers 20
2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the Lord! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the Lord appeared to them.

"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most assuredly, I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him. Pray like this 'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Let your Kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the Kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.'
"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you don't forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
"Moreover when you fast, don't be like the hypocrites, with sad faces. For they disfigure their faces, that they may be seen by men to be fasting. Most assuredly I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you fast, anoint your head, and wash your face; so that you are not seen by men to be fasting, but by your Father who is in secret, and your Father, who sees in secret, will reward you." -- Matthew 6:5-18

Just as God told Moses to take the staff; Pentecostals weld the gift of tongues as thought it were the staff of "Moses" God.
When you carefully compare what is in the bible with what is taught, tongues are not to be the central Assyrian pole we are told threw scripture to erect for ourselves and dance around. Nor the ark of covenant.

I care very little about making friends here that's never been my desire, I don't seek to surround myself with like minded people mainly because like minded people are not to common. In-spite of popular belief the path is narrow and few find it. In a nutshell the Pentecostal churches are largely responsible IMO for birthing the crazy TV nut cases and negative christian review from those that are not saved. In the same vein, as secular commentary speaking about what is going on in the world of Christianity, look to the pope. I tell you the truth Satan has the eyes of the world exactly where he wants them. No reasonable person would look at ether of these examples and say to themselves I want to be a part of that, I wouldn't and don't myself.

Bottom line, its not a personal attack on you or your church its properly understanding and believing the word. Tongues are not evidence of being born again, and I believe their are two types of tongues, one type that manifest at Pentecost for the Jews and repeated in acts with Cornelius and the Gentiles.
An other type that needs interpretation that is personal and uneek that Paul spoke of as being the least of gifts. Just as their are two baptisms water and spirit.

You used Mark, and is true but Jesus was clearly speaking directly to the 11 in disgust He rebuked their unbelief, and hardness of heart Mark 16:14 , He then prophesied of Pentecostal to them and we see this manifest in Acts. Later came Paul, as well who was bitten by a serpent. Paul never mentions the proof, evidence of tongues as you and Pentecostals believe.

Scripture doesn't support your belief, its as simple as that. You compare the birthing of gift to the Jews first and then to the Gentiles, like Moses striking the rock the second time, demanding and demonstrating the second is the same as the first, and God clearly indicates that's not so. You demand that the first instance of the going forth of the spirit should be the same in every case. That is simply not true. If we follow that logic, then Jesus baptism by John we should all presume as soon as we are water baptized we receive the HS. Some teach this but its simply not true again. Jesus was the first, just as the Jewish disciples were the first, Cornelius and his house were the first Gentiles, and Peter testified it was the same spirit manifestation. just as Jesus was prepared at Johns baptism so were the disciples "jews" and Cornelius's house "gentiles" pre---> prepared. Demanding this gift be manifest in the same measure and proportion to you and everyone that is born of the spirit as it first entered the world, is self edifying and not supported by scripture.

I believe that tongues were the first biblical evidence of people receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus it is the initial meaning first evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the fruit of the Holy Spirit and holiness are the main evidence of the inner abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.( Hebrews 12:14,Matthew 7:16). For the word of the Lord Jesus declares that "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9).

 

[John Zain]

Rex, I'll take some of the burden off Alan and explain ...

You have your eyes on man ... instead of on the Lord and His precious Scriptures.

News Flash! ... We should only be interested in Scripture and the early church.

Time to get with da program.

P.S. notice that I don't waste many words.

 

[Rex]

Thanks John and a news flash for you as well, someone that starts a tread titled
Proof: being born-again is different than being “baptized with the Holy Spirit”

Is clearly preoccupied with the elementary teachings of the gospel. Perhaps some day you will grow up and leave the elementary things behind as well as the church that keeps you in diapers. Perhaps you will someday understand that tongues, baptism and the laying of hands are not the staff of Moses nor are they the ARK of the covenant, maybe just maybe you'll drop the bottle of milk and seek the substance and truth in maturity and leave behind those that reverent the milk bottle. Just like those who time after time had to be delivered in the wilderness, just as those that went out of Egypt, Moses lifted the serpent before the people, delivered them in there unbelief time and time again its no wonder the doctrine of demonology also finds its roots in the Pentecostal faith, Moses himself tired of changing diapers and warming bottles.

Grow up John its past time, you need to lay the bottle down and TASTE the substance.

Hebrews 6
6 Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, 2 of the doctrine of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment. 3 And this we will[a] do if God permits.
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away,[b] to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
7 For the earth which drinks in the rain that often comes upon it, and bears herbs useful for those by whom it is cultivated, receives blessing from God; 8 but if it bears thorns and briers, it is rejected and near to being cursed, whose end is to be burned.


Angelina
"Let's quit fiddling with religion and do something to bring the world to Christ." ~ Billy Sunday

I don't have a clue who Billy Sunday is I have never studied him but I like this message.
Google: a rich baseball player from Iowa, evangelical. Quit fiddling with religion I like it.

 

[IanLC]

The Word stands alone. I do not chase TV preachers or healing revivals and no where did I say that tongues were an evidence of salvation. It is the biblical initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 10:44, Acts 19:1-6). More than tongues the Pentecostal faith has stressed to salvation in Jesus alone(Acts 4:12) me sanctification and holiness in heart and lifestyle. For Hebrews 12:14 declares "For without Holiness no man shall see the Lord!"

 

[Rex]

The Word stands alone. I do not chase TV preachers or healing revivals and no where did I say that tongues were an evidence of salvation. It is the biblical initial evidence of the baptism of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 10:44, Acts 19:1-6). More than tongues the Pentecostal faith has stressed to salvation in Jesus alone(Acts 4:12) me sanctification and holiness in heart and lifestyle. For Hebrews 12:14 declares "For without Holiness no man shall see the Lord!"

I said it was a part of, a keystone of the Pentecostal belief.
You agreed when I asked you directly.
You said tongues will accompany the HS, unless you don't believe the HS is evidence of salvation. Or baptism of the HS has some meaning other than being born again or receiving the HS. Which points towards the thread title, how is being born of the spirit different than being born again or baptized in the HS, it sounds rather strange, just as strange as tongues always accompanying the baptism of the HS.

To me its not a joking matter to place prerequisites on something as important as the HS If its not clearly pointed out by the Apostles.
Were talking about people being lead to believe that the indwelling of the H Spirit is followed by a false belief or teaching or in your case an opinion.
Just the same as teaching you receive the HS when you are water baptized it's equally deceptive, causes confusion and in short a false testimony.

I believe that tongues were the first biblical evidence of people receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus it is the initial meaning first evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the fruit of the Holy Spirit and holiness are the main evidence of the inner abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.( Hebrews 12:14,Matthew 7:16). For the word of the Lord Jesus declares that "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9).

I might add nor do I care that my rep has went from 65 to 40 since I have been debating Pentecostals about demonology and tongues.

 

[biggandyy]

If you confess and believe Jesus IS Lord, you WILL be saved. That's all there is folks. Really. It's that simple.

 

[Foreigner]

I am frankly surprised this discussion has gone on this long.

Millions of people around the world have given their lives to Jesus and have the Holy Spirit dwelling inside them who have not received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

They are true Christian brothers and sisters who Christ will welcome into the kingdom.

Many will feed the hungry, clothe the naked, lead others to Christ, etc.

Having said that, it is a loss for them not to have sought and received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is the gateway to the Gifts of the Holy Spirit.

It is through the Gifts of the Holy Spirit that they could have had an even more fruitful Christian walk.

 

[Rex]

I am frankly surprised this discussion has gone on this long.

That may be, and the site has the right to moderate as they see fit.
Heres a point
Remember the thread "Is the pope the anti christ" you posted in it.
well it popped up last night with all the replies deleted, it was re-dated and simply a thread starter with no replies, I posted "it looks like the cleaning lady came threw and deleted all the post"
Today I see it's completely removed, the point is why allow such topics to begin if during the course of discussion you dislike the results?
As well deleting all the replies and letting the question stand? for what? in the hope that something changes?

Like I said, Denver and staff have the right to do and enforce as they please,
But one is left to wonder about cause and effect with no clear explanation, only fosters blind speculation.
How about deleting the replies locking the thread and defining the problem so people can learn and understand, rather than middle of the night undefined edits.
It makes me wonder how many other times this has taken place.

 

[John Zain]

I am frankly surprised this discussion has gone on this long.

I don't understand why you are surprised.
Don't you know that most people have been brainwashed with 1900 years of false doctrines about this?
Shall we list all of the reasons for the development of these false doctrines?
If one was to stop and think, IMO these reasons should be obvious.

 

[rockytopva]

If every Christian remained warm, loving, full of faith, hope, and charity... I would say there would be no need to seek anymore spiritually from God. The problem is that Christians go out of the Spirit and into the flesh. Even Pentecostals, who claim the fullness of the Spirit, can go out of the Spirit and into the flesh and become just as bad as those they try to convert with their Pentecostal dogma. I was brought up in the Marine Corps and the Baptist church. I had thought that all Catholics were going to hell and that speaking of tongues was of the devil.

All that changed when I came here to farm-land here in south western Virginia. I started working with mom's kin and the people were very much joyful, happy, and alive. I started going to the Pentecostal church with them and then the Holy Spirit started speaking through me as well. Everything was warm, loving, just like episodes out of the Waltons.

I have come to learn that these revivals all started with John Wesley. And so Virginia come to develop its own unique brand of Methodism. To describe these services I must turn to George Clark Rankin who worked this areas Methodist circuit. Here is the url in which must be opened with IE... http://docsouth.unc.edu/fpn/rankin/rankin.html And a few excerpts...

I had associated with me that year a young collegemate, Rev. W. B. Stradley. He was a bright, popular fellow, and we managed to give Wytheville regular Sunday preaching. Stradley became a great preacher and died a few years ago while pastor of Trinity Church, Atlanta, Georgia. We were true yokefellows and did a great work on that charge, held fine revivals and had large ingatherings.

The famous Cripple Creek Campground was on that work. They have kept up campmeetings there for more than a hundred years. It is still the great rallying point for the Methodists of all that section. I have never heard such singing and preaching and shouting anywhere else in my life. I met the Rev. John Boring there and heard him preach. He was a well-known preacher in the conference; original, peculiar, strikingly odd, but a great revival preacher.

Page 241 The rarest character I ever met in my life I met at that campmeeting in the person of Rev. Robert Sheffy, known as "Bob" Sheffy. He was recognized all over Southwest Virginia as the most eccentric preacher of that country. He was a local preacher; crude, illiterate, queer and the oddest specimen known among preachers. But he was saintly in his life, devout in his experience and a man of unbounded faith. He wandered hither and thither over that section attending meetings, holding revivals and living among the people. He was great in prayer, and Cripple Creek campground was not complete without "Bob" Sheffy. They wanted him there to pray and work in the altar.

He was wonderful with penitents. And he was great in following up the sermon with his exhortations and appeals. He would sometimes spend nearly the whole night in the straw with mourners; and now and then if the meeting lagged he would go out on the mountain and spend the entire night in prayer, and the next morning he would come rushing into the service with his face all aglow shouting at the top of his voice. And then the meeting always broke loose with a floodtide.

He could say the oddest things, hold the most unique interviews with God, break forth in the most unexpected spasms of praise, use the homeliest illustrations, do the funniest things and go through with the most grotesque performances of any man born of woman.

It was just "Bob" Sheffy, and nobody thought anything of what he did and said, except to let him have his own way and do exactly as he pleased. In anybody else it would not have been tolerated for a moment. In fact, he acted more like a crazy man than otherwise, but he was wonderful in a meeting. He would stir the people, crowd the mourner's bench with crying penitents and have genuine conversions by the score. I doubt if any man in all that conference has as many souls to his credit in the Lamb's Book of Life as old "Bob" Sheffy.

It was about that time that the Methodist church began to take the Laodicean swing from hot-->lukewarm -->cold.

John B. Cobb, Jr., Ph.D. is Professor of Theology Emeritus at the Claremont School of Theology, Claremont, California... A Methodist theologian, he had this to say about the lukewarmness that has invaded the church (This page is not working today, sorry)...

John Wesley, the founder of the Methodist movement, to which I belong, had strong views about money. In his later years, surveying the remarkable success of the movement he had started, he said that he had no fear about its continuation. His great fear was for its inner spirit. He had observed two things. First, although most converts to Methodism were poor, many moved into the middle class. Second, middle class Methodists divided their loyalties between God and the acquisition of wealth. For the latter I have chosen to use the word familiar to us from the King James and early revised versions of the Bible: Mammon.

The upward mobility Wesley observed with distress is easily understood. In the spirit of the earlier Reformers, Wesley taught that Methodists should earn all they could, save all they could, and give all they could. He himself earned quite a lot through his many publications, lived frugally, and gave away what he did not need. Hence he accumulated no private treasure to distract his attention from doing God's work. His followers became disciplined workers and lived frugally. Many of them were generous with their money. But this generosity did not prevent the accumulation of some capital and its wise investment. The security and growth of this capital became a matter of concern to them, competing for their attention with their service to God.


When we ask why Methodists have grown lukewarm, it is well to accept Wesley's own analysis as an important part of the answer. We have grown lukewarm because we have become rich. Despite Jesus' specific denial of this possibility, we try to serve both God and Mammon. I fear that, in this respect, we do not differ greatly from Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and even Lutherans.


The Virginian Methodist revivals here in Virginia would turn to Church of God, Pentecostal Holiness, Congregational Holiness, and Assembly of God revivals. And I cannot fault the Methodist for we 'daughter denominations' took the same steps as the Methodist church and, in the words of the Methodist theologian John B. Cobb, "I fear that, in this respect, we do not differ greatly from Baptists, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and even Lutherans."


Departure from revival is something that nobody wants to deal with these days and that is annoying to me. Everyone can loose the leading of the Holy Spirit and become just as bad as everyone else outside their school of thought.

 

[justaname]

A little story I have about tongues. My neighbor who is Romanian by birth migrated to America and stayed with her sister at a place where they worked. After some time working there they decided it was time for them to move on but being new to the country and English not being their native tongue, they had difficulty communicating. She prayed and asked God for the words to communicate her situation to their overseer and said that she never spoke better English in her entire life.


Now I want to look at the Acts account. Remember at Jesus' time on earth He is the tabernacle. In His absence the Holy Spirit has been sent.


4 Gathering them together, He commanded them not to leave Jerusalem, but to wait for what the Father had promised, “Which,” He said, “you heard of from Me;
5 for John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now.”
6 So when they had come together, they were asking Him, saying, “Lord, is it at this time You are restoring the kingdom to Israel?”
7 He said to them, “It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority;
8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

These men did not have the promised baptism here because the time had not yet come. These men lived in a time that is much different than the one we live in now when the promise has been fulfilled. They had to wait for that promise to come, which happened at Pentecost.


1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.


This is interesting to point out here because so many today believe nonsensical language is the same as the language described biblically, where here clearly it is not.

Now, I am not intending to point out that what many see as the gift of tongues is false, only that biblical evidence strongly suggests something different than what may be interpreted today.

As I have been moving forward in my Christian walk I have yet to witness any manifestation of tongues in this manner other than the one I mentioned above, which truly I never witnessed.

To the Holy Spirit baptism point. I can not say I have ever witnessed or saw the laying of hands process, nor can I say the gifts have ceased. Most who dispute the idea of this being a valid practice cite this verse.

8 Love never fails; but if there are gifts of prophecy, they will be done away; if there are tongues, they will cease; if there is knowledge, it will be done away.
9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away.

Pretty weak argument IMO.
This is actually an interesting topic and if there is any validity to it I pray the Holy Spirit consumes my thoughts with the desire of receiving such a thing.

 

[John Zain]

They had to wait for that promise to come, which happened at Pentecost.


1 When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place.
2 And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.
5 Now there were Jews living in Jerusalem, devout men from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the crowd came together, and were bewildered because each one of them was hearing them speak in his own language.

It is wonderful that someone sees that "the promise" was not the arrival of the Holy Spirit per say,
but it was the Pentecostal outpouring (with the evidence of tongues).
"The gift" also refers to this.

It is not so wonderful that people don't accept the Day of Pentecost as a one-time occurrence.
God was jump-starting the whole Christian church thing ... with a real BANG!
This day did not have to be a pattern for things to come!
Witness many other of God's unique (one-time) miraculous events, such as:
Moses and the Red Sea, the talking donkey, etc.

IMO, you have the right attitude about seriously seeking the baptism with the Holy Spirit.
Stand on Matthew 7:7-12 ... ... and I'm sure that Jesus will bless you!

 

[biggandyy]

The topic is about Baptism, not tongues. Please stay on topic.

 

[IanLC]

Matthew 3:11 ""I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire."

Hebrews 6:4-5 "For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit,who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age,"

 

[justaname]

The topic is about Baptism, not tongues. Please stay on topic.

The reasoning for the mention of tongues is because it seems to a manifestation that displays itself upon the laying of hands, thereby the two go together. In fact there are certain denominations that claim without this particular manifestation the validity of your salvation is brought into question.

Now I do not assert that either must take place, tongues or the laying of hands, for this baptism or salvation.

What I do question is the validity of the manifestation of the gift in the believer, which brings into question the validity of the baptism itself. Not to say the practice itself is not valid, but if the manifestation of tongues is not equivalent to the biblical account, then logically one may deduce that the baptism is most likely not equivalent to the biblical account.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

(1) Luke 24:49 “Behold, I (will) send the promise of My Father upon you;
but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with (spiritual) power from on high.”

Luke gives more details about Jesus’ instructions above:
(2) Acts 1:4-8 “He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise
of the Father … you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit … you shall receive power when the
Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.”

(3) Acts 2:1-4 “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come … Then there appeared to them divided
tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

The Judean Jews wanted the same experience as others had earlier in the day:
(4) Acts 2:37-39 “ ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ Then Peter said to them,
‘Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is
to you and to your children, and all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
The sequence in this case would be: repentance, salvation, water baptism, Spirit baptism.
But, Peter knew from earlier in the day (3) that water baptism was not required for Spirit baptism.

Hi John,
How is it one can ignore the words of Jesus:
Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
Joh 3:4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, (3)Except a man be born of (1)water and of the (2)Spirit, he (3)cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

1. Born of water

2. Born of the Spirit.

3. Only way to be born again

It does take both, according to Jesus. One can receive the Holy Ghost and still not be born again. This is scripture, and so is the following.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the (1)Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid (2)water, that these should not be (2)baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he (3)commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

(1) Holy Ghost - Spirit

(2) Water - Baptized

(3) Commanded - Has to be done

Peter was given the keys to the kingdom and he replied when asked 'what shall we do?" by those that had not been born of the water or the Spirit.

Act 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

 

[teamventure]

Rocky, you're born of spirit when the holy spirit enters you at coversion. not when you are "baptized in the holy spirit" if that is even biblical.

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky, you're born of spirit when the holy spirit enters you at coversion. not when you are "baptized in the holy spirit" if that is even biblical.

Hi teamventure,
What has been pointed out, I hope, is the fact that being born again is two fold, if we don't count the blood of Jesus, Water and Spirit.

God has chosen, by his blood, to cleanse us of or sin by water, and seal us with the Holy Ghost.

1Jn 5:8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

We must have our sins remitted, no other way to heaven.

Peter said to be baptized for the remission of sin.
a. Release, as from a debt, penalty, or obligation.
b. Forgiveness; pardon.

1Ti 5:24 Some men's sins are open beforehand, going before to judgment; and some men they follow after.
*Our sins go before us when we are baptized so we will not face judgement when we leave this world.

Rom 3:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

Mar 1:4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.

Luk 1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

Luk 24:47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Mat 9:17 Neither do men put new wine into old bottles: else the bottles break, and the wine runneth out, and the bottles perish: but they put new wine into new bottles, and both are preserved.

Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

 

[John Zain]

Rocky,

Have you carefully studied the info in the OP, and have you prayed about it?
After all of this, do you have any specific questions about what's in the OP?

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Rocky,

Have you carefully studied the info in the OP, and have you prayed about it?
After all of this, do you have any specific questions about what's in the OP?

Are you saying that in a Christian forum, one cannot quote scripture. I do that because we are told that this is the way we know truth from error. If I say something that goes against scripture, not what men say, I will acknowledge my error.