Proof: being born-again is different than being “baptized with the Holy Spirit”

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John Zain

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(1) Luke 24:49 “Behold, I (will) send the promise of My Father upon you;
but tarry in the city of Jerusalem until you are endued with (spiritual) power from on high.”

Luke gives more details about Jesus’ instructions above:
(2) Acts 1:4-8 “He commanded them not to depart from Jerusalem, but to wait for the promise
of the Father … you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit … you shall receive power when the
Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be witnesses to Me … to the end of the earth.”

(3) Acts 2:1-4 “When the Day of Pentecost had fully come … Then there appeared to them divided
tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit
and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.”

The Judean Jews wanted the same experience as others had earlier in the day:
(4) Acts 2:37-39 “ ‘Men and brethren, what shall we do?’ Then Peter said to them,
‘Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized (in water) in the name of Jesus Christ for
the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is
to you and to your children, and all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call.’ ”
The sequence in this case would be: repentance, salvation, water baptism, Spirit baptism.
But, Peter knew from earlier in the day (3) that water baptism was not required for Spirit baptism.

Normally, spiritual manifestations are evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit:
(5) Acts 8:14-18 “… (Peter and John) prayed for them* that they* might receive the Holy Spirit.
For as yet He had fallen upon none of them*. They* had only been baptized in the name
of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them*, and they* received the Holy Spirit.
And when Simon saw that through the laying on of hands the Holy Spirit was given,
he offered them money, saying, ‘Give me this power also …’ ”
* the Samarians … The Samarians had already believed, been saved and water-baptized.
Peter and John laid hands on them and prayed that they be Spirit-baptized.
And Simon the sorcerer saw the resulting manifestations!
This is often the pattern (see passages 4 and 8): saved, water-baptized, Spirit-baptized.

(6) Acts 10:44-48 “… the Holy Spirit fell upon all those (Gentiles) who heard the word
… the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also.
For they (Peter and his companions) heard them speak with tongues and magnify God.
Then Peter asked, ‘Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be
baptized (in water) who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?’

Peter recalls the experience with the Gentiles above:
(7) Acts 11:15-17 “… the Holy Spirit fell upon them (the Gentiles), as upon us (the Jews) at the
beginning. Then I remembered the word of the Lord, how He said, ‘John indeed baptized with water,
but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’ … God gave them the same gift as He gave us
when we believed on the Lord Jesus Christ …”

(8) Acts 19:5-6 “… they (the saved Ephesian disciples) were (water) baptized in the name of
the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came upon them,
and they spoke with tongues and prophesied …”

In passages (1) and (2), Jesus is speaking of what He will cause to happen in the future.

Please keep in mind that all of the details of any event are seldom recorded.

KEY PASSAGES ..... KEY WORDS
(1) Luke 24:49……………upon…promise…power…………………………………………………………………………………
(2) Acts 1:4-8……………upon…promise…power……………………………………………………H.S.baptism
(3) Acts 2:1-4……………upon………………………………………tongues………………………………H.S.baptism(*)
(4) Acts 2:37-39……………………promise………………………………………gift………………………………………………
(5) Acts 8:14-18………upon………………………power……………………………………hands………………………………
(6) Acts 10:44-48……upon………………………………………tongues…gift………………………………………………
(7) Acts 11:15-17……upon……………………………………………………………gift…………………H.S.baptism
(8) Acts 19:5-6…………upon………………………………………tongues………………hands………………………………
(*) obviously implied from passage 2
Actually, all of these passages are linked together to imply the H.S. baptism!

From the first 3 passages we learn that upon, promise, power, tongues refer to the H.S. baptism.

Next we learn that the promise is the gift, and the laying on of hands is involved.

And that’s it … we see that all 7 of these are linked together:
baptism with the Holy Spirit, upon, tongues, promise, gift, power, laying on of hands.

And none of this has anything to do with a person being born-again ...
where the precious Holy Spirit takes up residence INSIDE the believer, as stated in these 7 verses:

John 14:16-23, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16, Galatians 4:6, 2 Timothy 1:14, 1 John 3:24, 1 John 4:12-16.
 

Angelina

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You need to be born again to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God should already be there. Two different events yes but born-again has got to precede being baptized... :huh:

Be Blessed!!!
 

John Zain

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Angelina said:
You need to be born again to be baptized with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit of God should already be there.
Two different events yes but born-again has got to precede being baptized... :huh:
Yes, and many have received both (seemingly) simultaneously!

IMO, there are 2 opposing considerations to take into account with teaching about this baptism:
1) Positive: some people will be spurred on to "tarry" (like I did) until receiving it
2) Negative: some people without this baptism will feel inferior to others who have it

But, I feel the first is far more important than the second.

God's greatest healing evangelist in the past 100 years (IMO) was Smith Wigglesworth,
who was quite famous world-wide. He said:
"If you don't have the baptism with the Holy Spirit, you are living in a weak and impovershed condtion."
He was speaking about one's spiritual condition, of course.

I'm sure that I am speaking for all of us who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit
when I encourage the rest of you to go after this baptism with all that you have!

Belief is highly prized by the Lord Jesus, but unbelief turns Him away.
So, please take His encouragement to heart ... and don't forget the little persistent widow!

Matthew 7:
7 “Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened.
9 Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent?
11 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him!
 

Rex

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Here are some simple facts as I understand scripture.

The baptism of John "water" and the baptism of Jesus "spirit".

John was sent to prepare the way, he was not the way. The sign or seal if you will of John ministry was baptism, it was a preparatory action and symbolizing the repentance of sins, symbolic of the spiritual baptism, pointing to the removal of sin threw Jesus to allow the spirit a home in us. to prepare those that believed in his message and accepted the one to whom he pointed to, Jesus who would then baptize with the spirit.

Here is what I see, salvation was first presented to the Jews and the Jews alone. John only baptized Jews, preparing them as new wine skins, making ready themselves to put off the old covenant and receive the new. Preparatory---> prepare the way of the Lord. The preparatory ministry of John threw baptism was not completed until Jesus gave Himself as the sacrifice, the temple veil was torn, He was risen from the dead, then the preparatory action of baptize came into effect when the spirit was released at Pentecost. That is John ministry to prepare the Jews to receive the fullness and completion of the message they were entrusted and empowered to deliver first to themselves then to the nations of the world.

Jesus speaking to Nicodemus was speaking of this spirit birth, born again of spirit. It was not yet a reality it was yet to be manifest.
There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. --------->>>> 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.
To further expound on baptism the gentiles were not baptized, see my explanation above, it was Johns ministry.

Cornelius, and his house hold were never baptized yet they received the spirit by hearing the word, by the speaking of the word, water in the from of the Holy Spirit flowed out. Now this is the final manifestation of salvation promised to Abraham "all nations" and symbolically prophesied by God threw Moses. In the wilderness Mosses was first told to strike the rock "Jesus crucified" and water flowed out for the people of Israel. The second time Moses was instructed to SPEAK TO THE ROCK, "Cornelius and his household" but he didn't and in his frustration with the nation again struck the rock. I hope you know the story.

In my opinion in a similar fashion as Moses striking, instead of speaking, Peter after seeing Cornelius and his household had received the spirit by hearing, Peter then had them baptized.
I'm not saying don't be baptized, or to keep or not to keep a holy day, but the word is clear and the symbolism stretching back to Moses proves my point by hearing the word and believing you receive the Holy Spirit, {Before this John Baptism prepared the way for the Jews, before the Rock "Jesus" was struck}. Moses was instructed to speak to the Rock the second time, it has nothing to do with being baptized or striking the rock the first time. Your comparing the first instance of water from the rock "to Israel" to the second by speaking fulfillment of the promise to Abraham "all nations". Please stop striking the ROCK. Baptism was by John as one preparing the way, and yes today If you are baptized and have not yet received the spirit then it to is a symbolic action of repentance, preparing the way, but it is not by immersion, but by hearing and believing you are spiritually baptized.
 

afaithfulone4u

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Isn't it really that being saved is different that inheriting the kingdom of God?

1 Cor 3:10-18
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
KJV


1 Cor 6:8-10
8 Nay, ye do wrong, and defraud, and that your brethren.
9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
Gal 5:15-21
15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
KJV
 

MTPockets

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Jus' some comments to this Thread:

if you think that the reading of this rather lengthy Post will be tedious, let me assure you that the writing of it was significantly more difficult. Yet, I have the confidence that those who are sincerely seeking shall find; whether it will be someone in this Forum today or someone else who might stumble into the reading via Google Search 5 years down the road.

Ummm, in a nutshell, I guess the issue being addressed can be answered by acknowledging the distinction between the gospel of John the Baptist and the gospel of Jesus, At first glance, it doesn't appear to be any significant difference between the two. But let me explain:

First, remind yourself of this verse saying, "Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrines of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, with instructions about ablutions, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits", (Heb 6:1-3).
Then, take particular notice of the words "elementary doctrines".
After that,, please note that "repentance from dead works" is stated as an "elementary doctrine" ... a starting point, if you will.

The faithful of the Old Covenant fully knew the necessity of repentance; it's not as if John the Baptist somehow invented the requirement in the New Covenant.
So, if our repentance is 'elementary' ... the beginning of our Christian journey ,,, it goes without saying that there must be significantly more to the Christian experience than repentance/forgiveness of sin.
Oops! Did yuh catch those four words saying, "Go on to maturity"?
Well, keep those words in mind because a few verses later the writer pointedly continues saying, "But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation", (Heb 6:9).
Did you catch that? "Better things that accompany salvation".
So, evidently there is something better awaiting us after our repentance ...something more splendid which accompanies our being ransomed from the clutches of the sin and death.

The above mentioned is precisely the difference between the gospel of John the Baptist and the gospel of Jesus.
Jesus had "a more excellent ministry" than John the Baptist because He was "the mediator of a better covenant, "which was established upon better promises", (Heb 8:6).

Not surprisingly, seeking spiritual maturity is regarded as an illusion by many Christians. Jesus asked the rich young man, "Would you be perfect?"' What an offer! The Lord asked if this young man desired to be like Himself. He, however, did not respond. The man preferred earthly goods to heavenly ones. If we wish to be conformed to the image of the Son of God, (Romans 8:29), we have to begin at the foundation. It has to be laid in our lives if we are earnest to reach the purpose of God.

The bible doesn't contain a creed to which we have to agree or sign our name. Instead, it shows the way of life to be followed in order to reach the goal which God has set for us. This goal is very clearly indicated in the verse I quoted above. It is "maturity" ... the state of spiritual maturity.

The verse speaks about "elementary doctrines". The Christian's dally task is to build on these elementary doctrines.
The bible compares the growing up of a spiritual man with building a house, the establishing of a temple of God in the spiritual world. Many small temples joined together make one mighty edifice: the faithful church.

So, repentance is the first step we have to take in order to be on the way of true life.

The gospel of Jesus Christ starts with the call,"Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand", (Matt 4:17). A change of heart is required, a complete renewal of our unseen, inner man. Only then can we enter into the Kingdom of God where we find "righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit", (Rom 14:17). In our old, unrepentant condition, we were dead before God because of our sins. No one can serve two masters. No one can have contact with the evil one and real life at the same time; because the origin of all life is from God.

To be 'dead' means to have contact with the realm of darkness; to be a servant of the demons. When we obey the powers behind our darkness, they reward us with death;. that is: with alienation from God. Romans 6:23 says: "For the wages of sin is death", and in Isaiah 59:2 we read: "Your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God".. When we repented, we disengaged ourselves from the darkness. We refuse to obey their devilish promptings and we turn away from the "roaring lion" who chases us towards death. Inwardly, we tear away from our spiritual oppressors and cease to listen to their dark inspirations. We disengage our tired and guilt-laden human spirit from darkness and look to Jesus Christ; the bringer of salvation and the restorative power to our lives. We take refuge in God, (Heb 6:18).

Our transportation from darkness to light is what the bible calls man's regeneration. Just as at his birth a child emerges from his secret place and starts a new phase of life, likewise our inner man, after being born again, takes up his place in the spiritual world which is called the kingdom of heaven. Henceforth we Christian not only live in this visible or natural world, but first and foremost we function in the kingdom of God ... the lighter side of the spiritual world. For this ne citizenship to occur, it is necessary for our thoughts, (previously only occupied with the things of the earth), to be directed "on things above". This requires a total change or renewal of or mind, (Rom 12:2). This process of change, by which we are Born Again as a spiritual man, takes place in our inner man. It begins in our spirit and then continues in our soul and even in our body. It does not happen all at once; our renewal is a daily increase,

The bible tells us that Jesus died for the Sins of the whole world. Our evil words and acts brought into being our guilt before God in the unseen world. Jesus took care of our debt before God and settled our account. Just as in natural life we can change a gold ten dollar coin for a thousand or more dirty one penny pieces, so the Lamb of God substituted His pure and unblemished life for all men. Since we believe this truth, we have no debt with God whatsoever. Accordingly, we know ourselves as righteous. This assurance of faith gives us great joy. Jesus is "the Lamb of God, who takes away the (debt of) sin of the World", (John 1:29). His blood was shed in the natural world, and in the unseen world He paid for our debts with His life.

The next step is "faith toward God":
When we heard the glad tidings, a longing was created in us to possess the gospel's glorious offer of grace: forgiveness of guilt, righteousness, spiritual power holiness, childhood and sonship of God, kingship, and finally the government on the throne of God of the whole visible and invisible creation,
Our Savior said,: "Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest", (Matt 11:28). He had a good message for the sinners and the sick, for the invalid and the leper, for those who were in bondage and possessed by demons. Jesus promised to open the doors of the prison of sin and sickness, to break the fetters of their victims. Slaves of sin He would set free and the diseased He would heal.
Since we are are hungry and thirsty for righteousness for our body, soul and spirit, for a life of joy and gladness, our will became moved when we heard the gospel.
The apostle wrote, "'I am not ashamed of the gospel; it is the power of God for salvation to every one who has faith", (Rom 1:16). We too are not ashamed of the gospel because it is good. It reveals the thoughts towards man of a loving and merciful God. For this reason, not only did we break our spiritual contact with the powers of sin, we also began to disengage ourselves from the things which the earth has to offer. We have beheld Jesus, our Savior and God's plan of salvation.

Faith is a function of the spirit through which man is able to seize and appropriate the unseen things. It operates in the unseen, spiritual world, causing man not to accept only the things he sees and hears in the visible world. If we hold fast to the words of God, we have faith that "keeps the soul", (Heb 10:39).

Lots of Christians wrongly think that faith is a special gift of God which He only gives to a small group of elect. They say that those who have not received this gift then are unable to enter the Kingdom of God. They try and prove this by referring to Ephesians 2:8 which says: "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not your own doing, it is the gift of God". The word 'this', however, does not refer to faith, but to grace. The words "through faith" might be put in parentheses, for faith is the means by which we make grace our own. Then it says: "By grace you have been saved, (through faith), and this is not your own doing: it is the gift of God". Faith is not a gift of grace because our salvation is mercifully given to us. (By the way: I'm not discussing here about the special charisma of the Holy Spirit which is a gift which is given to some; just as the other ministries are mentioned in 1Cor 12:9).

Every spirit has faith. Even of the evil spirits are said to be capable of believing, (James 2:19). Faith, however, has to be directed at the Word of God. When the people of Thessalonica turned away from the idols, it was said of them, "But your faith, which is towards God, has reached all men's ears", (1Thess 1:8).
When we say we believe someone, this person must first have spoken to us. Therefore Romans 10:17 says: "So faith comes from what is heard. and what is heard comes by the preaching of Christ", If a person has said much to us and we thus know much about him, our faith and trust in him will be proportionally great.

Sometimes when I hear people say, "So-n'-so is such a believing man or woman", I'm tempted to ask, "What do they believe?". Such a believing person, one who has great faith, must know and be holding fast to many promises of our Lord so that they can be realized in his life. True faith is directed at the words of God as spoken through His prophets and, more in particular, at those spoken by Him in the latter days through His Son, (Heb 1:1).

Faith means seizing the unseen, for words represent thoughts and ideas and these cannot be perceived by the senses. True faith becomes active through the preaching of the words of God. Revelation 6:2 tells us that the Word goes out "conquering and to conquer". He who by faith abides in this Word, that is in Christ, he who holds fast to it in patience, shares and functions in this victory. Through faith, the human spirit adopts the thoughts of Cod. It is moved and saturated by them. This is the way in which the mind is changed and renewed. The New Birth which the bible mentions begins in the mind. To follow Jesus means to adopt His thoughts and these thoughts govern our words and behavior.

So it is that we can draw near to God "in full assurance of faith, with a heart sprinkled clean (by the blood of Jesus) from an evil conscience!", (Heb 10:22). In this way God begins the restoration of the creation. First He cleanses its king, (you and me), and through grace accepts us back into His presence. Since we accept the words of God, we believe what He says about us and confess that we are pure. .

Once Jesus said to his disciples: "You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you", (John 15:3). By believing the utterances of God. we confess that we are a New Creation. Henceforth, we call ourselves a child of God, a heir of Cod and a co-heir with Christ, (Rom 8:17). Through this faith, we accept the principle of the New Man. "The old man" and his former ways of thinking have died together with Christ.

Just like Jesus relinquished His life of His own volition, the Born-Again and renewed man relinquishes his old sinful behaviors and earth-centered life. We continually surrender it into death, to lead a new life, a life of faith in the heavenly places. We desire to be a spiritual man, that is, we wish to live. walk. fight and conquer in heaven. We seek the things which are above, where Christ is, (Col 3:2).

Many Christians dare not confess they are righteous even though they believe in Jesus Christ's vicarious suffering. We find them confessing that they will remain sinners until they die. In essence, they are testifying that they will remain in the clutches of the evil powers until their end. Surely, this kind of confession is evidence that they do not live through faith in God's promises. For this reason, they are reluctant to consider themselves as potential sons of God and have no confidence to accept the full riches of grace which God promised to His children. Neither do they advance in the Kingdom of God because they are unacquainted with spiritual strength and growth.

In Mark 16:17 Jesus said that those who believe will lay hands on the sick that these may recover, that they will cast out demons and glorify Him in new tongues. All these things are in our bible. :"To believe God" means to believe everything He has spoken, and to accept everything He has in grace given to us. If we do this, we are truly believers. Sadly, many Christians maintain that these wonderful promises were for the olden days only, and that deliverance and healing only happened 'way-back-then'. With such shallow faith, they reveal themselves as despising the eternal and unchangeable Word of God. Jesus foresaw this rejection of His words and pleaded, "Nevertheless, when the Son of man comes, will He find faith on earth?'".

The bible mentions "little faith" but also the increase of faith, and a great faith. Our faith can only increase when our knowledge is added unto. Not knowledge of natural things, but of spiritual things. The more we know of the spiritual world and its inhabitants, its forces and laws, the greater our faith becomes; and the more this becomes evident in our words and deeds.Jesus said about the centurion at Capernaum that he had great faith This was because of his knowledge of the unseen world. He had grasped the meaning of the words which Jesus spoke in parables about the Kingdom of Heaven. He had the ability to translate these images from the natural world into unseen realities. Thus he understood the way in which the healing of his slave had to come about. His regarded his servant's sickness as a lawless power and Jesus as the authority in the heavenly places.
His slave's healing was founded on laws of the spiritual world in which Jesus held a position above all, "whether thrones or dominions or principalities or authorities", (Col 1:16). Just as the centurion could command his soldiers on earth, so Jesus too was able to tell the authors of sickness in the unseen world to depart, (Luke 7:1-10).

I've heard this expression more times than I wish to recall: "You have to launch out in faith". I have never been able to comprehend this saying. It's more true that we have to abide in faith, walk in faith, struggle and fight in faith, and conquer in faith. Clearly, we must not launch out, but abide.

The next step Hebrews 6:1-3 addresses is the third part of the Christian foundation:
The author of Hebrews mentions "instructions about ablutions" or "baptisms". (The word used here is plural, indicating more than one ablution or baptism). So, I'll discuss the two baptisms in succession.

First, the baptism in water:
It is God's wish that, even at the the beginning of our Christian journey, we should testify of our faith in our complete regeneration or re-creation. We not only do so in words, but we also symbolize it through our being baptized in water.

When a Christian is baptized in water he testifies of the fact that his old life has been relinquished and a new life started. Full of expectation he will look forward to a life of fellowship with his Lord. His heart will yearn for this, and for the power to overcome evil and live a life of righteousness.

In Mark 16.16 Jesus said, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved". The word 'saved' means that the believer will be enabled to completely fulfill God's purpose with man. Not only that he will be justified and born again, but also continuing on the road of salvation towards attainiing the glory of sonship. This salvation culminates in a Christian's perfection and maturity. For he is an heir of God and a co-heir with Christ, (Rom 8:17). He partakes of the divine nature, (2Peter 1:4), and is predestined to reign on the throne of God over all the works of his hands, (2Tim 2:12 & Rev 5:10). Jesus Christ came to "bring many sons to glory", (Heb 2:10).

At our baptism we confess before God and men, before holy angels and fallen, that we have chosen Jesus. God has called us to obedience to His Son and demands our clear answer. In his baptism the believer testifies that he has entered into the "narrow gate", (Jesus Christ), and that he has put his feet on the road which leads upward in the Kingdom of God, (Matt 7:13). This decision to be baptized in water depends on the desire of the individual person who is baptized; not on the wish of his parents or educators as is the case in the sprinkling of infants. The biblical order is: He who believes and is baptized!

Obviously, a process, which so drastically changes a person's life that the Bible speaks about it as one of death, burial and resurrection cannot be depicted by the sprinkling of a few drops of water. Infant baptism as well as sprinkling are opposed to the intrinsic meaning of baptism. John immersed Jesus in the waters of Jordan, for it says: "After baptism Jesus came up out of the water at once", (Matt 3:16). On this occasion Jesus spoke these words, "Thus it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteousness". When Jesus used the word 'thus' He means to show that this is the way in which baptism should be conducted.

The bible further mentions "the washing of regeneration", (Titus 3:5). This means that the word of God is active as a cleansing bath in water. It is for this reason that the bible speaks about "the washing of water with the word", (Eph 5:27). As in natural life, water cleanses a person from dirt, llikewise the inner man is purified or cleansed of the guilt of his sins by a spiritual immersion in the ords of God. These words wash him and he is resurrected as a New Man in righteousness. The Lord said to His disciples, "You are already made clean by the word which I have spoken to you", (John 15:3).

The bible also says that with Jesus we were buried by baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life, (Rom 6:4). Here again there is mention of a spiritual event:a "baptism in his death"; a partaking in Jesus' death for our sins. Because Jesus died, God accepts that we too have died with Him; meaning: in our existence a separation has come into being between the life as we knew it before, directed and inspired by the things of this earth and the powers of darkness, and the life which we now live under the guidance and influence of the words of God. The way in which the believer functioned and reacted before, was of the earth, sometimes even from the devil. The believer disengages himself from this way of life. He puts off the old nature which is corrupt through deceitful lusts, (Eph 4:29), and focuses his attention on the things which God has said to him. He puts on the new nature which is created after the likeness of God, (Eph 4:4). The "glory of the Father" has raised Jesus from the dead; that is to say: His power or His Holy Spirit. This "glory" also raises the believer to a newness of life in which even his mortal body shares because it too experiences God's saving and healing power.

It is clear that this change from the old to the completion of the new takes much time. Baptism in water symbolizes the death of our old as well as the resurrection of our New Man. When we surrendered ourselves to be immersed, we relinquished our old nature in the water grave. Emerging from the water, we confessed our justification and the newness which had now begun. We put aside the things which were behind and pressed onward for the things to come for "no one who puts his hand to the plough and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God", (Luke 9:62).

And, what is more wonderful still: God Himself forgets the things which happened in our past and accepts us as His justified child.

The New Covenant has a sign in the heart which is the inner man, and a Covenant in the spirit, which is in the unseen world. In our days, many people migrate to another country. In their new land, they start a completely new life under new laws and norms. Our baptism also symbolized our inner man's migration from the world, and or our citizenship in the heavenly places, (Phil 3:20).

The bible says the Old Covenant is the one which vanishes away. But many Christians today refuse to let it vanish away.

Under the Old Covenant, everything was focused on the earth and the world which is perceptible to the senses. In the Better Covenant which is founded on better promises, everything becomes elevated at the spiritual world. In the New Covenant, only the true children of faithful Abraham are baptized, who are not born from flesh and blood, but who are born from God. Thus the Old Covenant had the circumcision which was made in the flesh by hands and created an outward sign. The New Covenant, however, has a spiritual circumcision, "In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of flesh in the circumcision of Christ, as you were buried with him in baptism", (Col 2:11-12). Therefore, after regeneration, the spiritual reality of circumcision has taken the place of natural circumcision.

Just as in natural life, the umbilical cord between mother and child is severed after birth, so in the inner man, the old life is separated from the new by the sword of the Spirit, the Word of God. The new man is separate from the old. In the unseen world this is a clear sign of the fact that a person has become a child of God. This circumcision of the heart is depicted by baptism in water. The old life is left behind in the water to be buried as a spiritual afterbirth. For that reason Bible says, "But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: 'The Lord knows who are his,' and 'Let every one who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity", (2Tim 2:19).

Again, the sprinkling of children could not possibly depict this process because it is impossible for other people to make these decisions on our behalf. Jesus never baptized children, but He laid hands on them and blessed them. He said, "For to such (non-baptized children) belongs the kingdom of God", (Mark 10:13-16). The fact that the disciples tried to keep the mothers from taking their little ones to Jesus, proves that they certainly were not accustomed to baptizing children! Because water baptism is first and foremost a confession, infant baptism is against the fundamental biblical order. Jesus said, "Every one who acknowledges me before men, I also will acknowledge before my Father who is in heaven", (Matt 10:32).

The sprinkling of children began because people mistakenly believed that small children shared in the Covenant between God and His people. So over the centuries, this became a tradition in a large majority of churches. They believed that baptism had taken the place of circumcision; although circumcision was the sign of belonging to Abraham's natural offspring. The New Covenant, however, does not take into account this line of natural generations. In the sprinkling of infants, no faith is required from the candidate, and there is no evidence of repentance. There also is no regeneration, but at best it is founded on a 'supposed' regeneration, which in no way is the assurance of faith. Sprinkling of children does not call to mind death and burial, neither the circumcision of the heart. So baptism has completely been robbed of its meaning. Sprinkling of infants is a matter of flesh and blood, an affair of parents and natural descendants.

Second, the baptism in Holy Spirit:
The baptism in the Holy Spirit is the characteristic element of the New Covenant. "Baptism now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God by a good conscience"., (1Peter 3:21). Since every believer wishes to consciously live, walk, struggle and overcome in the Kingdom of God, he must be endowed with "power from on high"; that is with power from the unseen world, (Luke 24:49), The baptism in the Holy Spirit provides Christians with the equipment to truly live a spiritual life. Then the spiritual gifts can develop in him which are indispensable for producing the fruits of the Holy Spirit and for building the church of Jesus Christ. Without this heavenly power, it is impossible to follow in the footsteps of Jesus. (There is an immense difference between following Jesus as the Lamb and that of following in His footsteps as King and Lord).

When Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, He became the first of many brethren. Together with John the Baptist, He "fulfilled all righteousness", because at the Jordan the whole way of salvation was revealed. Luke 3:21 tells us that Jesus was baptized in water. He was in the river together with John. The water was streaming from his head and hands.
Then the Son of man lifted his eyes towards heaven and prayed. He desired the "power from on high", the gift of the Holy Spirit. "Now when all the people were baptized, and when Jesus also had been baptized and was praying the heaven was opened, and the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in bodily form. as a dove". John, as well as Jesus, beheld the unseen world and saw the way in which this divine event took place. At that moment Jesus' human spirit was united with the Holy Spirit.

Jesus had been baptized in water, and in doing so He testified of his entrance into the Kingdom of God. Through the baptism in the Holy Spirit this Kingdom began to manifest itself in Him and through Him. Then the "powers of the age to come" started to function in Him, enabling Him to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of heaven as an experience ... as an insider. Jesus was then equipped for the ministry of casting out demons, healing the sick and to setting free the possessed, in order to triumph over the obstacles which restrained man from entering into the Kingdom of God. Our Lord said, "But if it is by the Spirit of God that I cast out demons, then the Kingdom of God has come upon you", (that is, has come within your reach), (Matthew 12:28). While there had been many prophets and great men of God in the Old Covenant, none of them went round to lay hands on the sick and deliver the possessed.

When we occupy our mind with the things that are above, that is, when we are occupied in prayer, then the first thing we may ask for is the baptism in the Holy Spirit. Our glorified Jesus is the Baptizer in the Holy Spirit, for it says, "Being exalted with the right hand of God, (that is the Holy Spirit), and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He has poured out this which you see and hear", (Acts 3:21).
In Luke 11:13 we read, "If you then who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will the heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him". So this verse clearly mentions children of God who pray for the Holy Spirit. They have been born again and entered into the Kingdom of heaven.
They have to pray for the Holy Spirit because He is not automatically given to the Christian, neither does He take up a dwelling place in man if the man does not wish so. Man has to ask for it in steadfast faith in God's promises that He will surely give the Holy Spirit to him. The child of God prays a prayer of the glad expectation of faith, knowing that Jesus, the Baptizer with the Holy Spirit, (Matthew 3:11), and Who had received the 'promise of the Father", will certainly answer him.

The disciples also received the Holy Spirit after prayer because it says, "And these with one accord devoted themselves to prayer", (Acts 1:14). They waited for the realization of the promise of the Father and their faith was evident from the great joy with which they continually praised God in the temple, (Luke 24:53).

The bible says, "To all who received Him He gave power to become children of God", (John 1:12).When we were Born Again, we were "made to sit with Him in the heavenly places". With our baptism in the Holy Spirit, Jesus began to "show the immeasurable riches of his grace" in us, (Eph 2:6-7). Yes, at our repentance, we began to experience the riches of grace already. But we have been invited to an immeasurable measure of grace that accompanies salvation. The Bible mentions this as, "From his fullness have we all received, grace upon grace", (John 1:16).

When Jesus was baptized in the Holy Spirit, the unseen world became revealed/opened to Him. It was at this moment that His ministry began. He was endowed with "power from on high". "And then, lo, a voice from heaven, saying: 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased'", (Matt 3:17). Jesus is our model and we earnestly desire to walk in His steps. When we ourselves were baptized in the Holy Spirit, the voice from heaven also becomes spoken to us us, saying, "You are a son of God with whom I am well pleased". From that moment onward, we rejoiced in the knowledge that we are heirs of God and co-heirs with Jesus Christ.

The baptism in water and the baptism in the Holy Spirit must to succeed each other; this is the foundation of the gospel. In our days, it oftentimes happens that someone is baptized in the Holy Spirit without having been first baptized in water. This is caused by an incorrect understanding of the baptism in water. For example, because of his wrong ideas, Peter did not dare baptize Cornelius and his household. But when the Holy Spirit fell on all of them, he said, "'Can any one forbid water for baptizing these people who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?", (Acts 10:47).

On the day of Pentecost, Peter outlined the scriptural order when he said, "Repent and be baptized every one of you ... and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit", (Acts 2:38). In Acts 8 we see this order being adhered to very clearly in the case of the Samaritans. First they believed what Phillip preached. Then they were set free from the unclean spirits. Then these 'men and women' bore witness of their newness of life by being baptized in water. They knew they were righteous and possessed a good conscience because, by His sufferings and death, Jesus had atoned for their sins. They were fully confident of being citizens of the kingdom of heaven.
So, then they had to take the next step on the way of faith. They desired the baptism in the Holy Spirit and received it when Peter and John had laid hands upon them. Only after this baptism in the Holy Spirit, did they become real New Covenant Christians. We find the same order in Acts 19:1-7, when Paul first baptized in the name of Jesus twelve disciples of John the Baptist and then laid hands upon them for the baptism in the Holy Spirit.

The Old Covenant did not know of any further edification after righteousness. It required an whole lifetime of effort to become righteous according to the requirements of the law. This was a never-ending demanding task. However, under the New Covenant we become righteous because we believe in the atonement through the blood of Jesus Christ.
By this faith we enter into the narrow gate and start off on the road which leads towards spiritual maturity, (perfection). In the sermon on the mount, the Lord Jesus said that we would be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. This word perfect also means 'mature.' Again, using the same word, the apostle mentions "mature manhood" in Ephesians 4.13. In Hebrews 5:14 the word in this sense: "the mature, those who have their faculties trained by practice to Distinguish good from evil".

In 2Timothy 3:16 Paul wrote concerning the purpose of his gospel that it leads man to completeness and perfection; equipping him for every good work. Jesus was equipped for good work and so will we if we are baptized in the same Holy Spirit and work with the same power and abilities.

The Old Covenant peoples did not know about the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, "For as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified", (John 7:39). The New Covenant is enacted on better promises, (Hebrew 8:6). The Old Covenant peoples did not know of anything of "those things which accompany salvation"; of those things after righteousness. For the Old Testament faithful, it was impossible to go the way of faith until they reached the goal. The bible says, "And all these, though well attested by their faith, did not receive what was promised, (that is the Holy Spirit), since God had foreseen something better for us, (Hebrews 11:39). We in the New Covenant are allowed to receive the promise of the Father. The Father and the Son wish to take up a dwelling place in us, through the Holy Spirit, (John 14:23).

Revelation 3:20 has this glorious promise: "Behold. I stand at the door and knock; if any one heals my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me". This is a very clear picture of the baptism in the Holy Spirit. When we open the door of our heart, the Holy Ghost will enter. Then our human spirit has fellowship with the Spirit of Christ and together they satisfy themselves from the bread of life, which is the Word of God.

It's not a wonder that faithful Abraham, "Looked forward to the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God", (Hebrews 11:10).
While it's true that many Christians seek the same city as Abraham, their hymns and conversation speak of their being pearly gates and streets of gold in the New Jerusalem. Unfortunately, because of improper teachings, a lot of sincere Christians remain distant from the fact that Jesus called His church to a much nobler purpose. We are to be more than the future inhabitants of the heavenly city. After all, we are a "temple of God in the spirit"; and a "royal priesthood". It takes an anointing to be a priest. Concerning Jesus our High Priest, it says that "God anointed Him with the Holy Spirit and with power", (Acts 10:30). In this same way, only the citizens of heavenly Jerusalem are anointed with the Holy Spirit and become formed as the temple of God.

Through the baptism in the Holy Spirit God not only is with His people, He is IN them His Spirit, together with the human spirit,constitutes a unity, a spiritual bond of marriage. This is why it reads, "He who is united to the Lord becomes one spirit with Him", (1Cor 6:17).
It is not good that the human spirit should be alone. As in natural life in a happy marriage man and wife both live in the same house and are one, so in the unseen world the Spirit of God and the human spirit are one. They dwell in the temple of God which is the human body.

We should all know that we do not enter into the full promises of the New Covenant automatically simply because of the fact that we live two thousand years after the birth of Christ. No, we become partakers of this Covenant because we experienced a personal 'Pentecost.'
It might be useful for us all to ask ourselves this question:
In which respect is what I have more than what the faithful of the Old Covenant had?
Do I have more than forgiveness of sins and righteousness?
Provided you really do have this in faith, do you really have that divine quality to speak as Jesus spoke and to think and act as He did?
Jesus expects His people to do even greater works than He did, (John 14:12), but this is impossible if they are not endowed with "power from on high". It's only through the baptism in the Holy Spirit that the Christian receives the possibility to deliver the creation, to heal and restore in the same way as the Lord did. Of the faithful of the New Covenant, Jesus said that they would cast out evil spirits, lay hands upon the sick that they should be healed, and speak in new tongues, (Mark 16:17).

As a first sign of our new spiritual life, the baptism in the Holy Spirit is accompanied by speaking in tongues. The sign of Pentecost is, "And there appeared to them tongues as of fire, distributed and resting on each of them", (Acts 2:3). These tongues were not 'of fire,' but 'AS of fire,' that is, they were a sign in the unseen, spiritual world. It was the disciples, not the onlookers, who saw this sign of the New Covenant.
As John the Baptist and Jesus saw the Holy Spirit descend "like a dove",' so the faithful in the upper chamber saw fiery tongues distributed in similar manner. This fire did not singe or sear, it was a spiritual fire, just like as when Moses saw the burning bush.
Speaking in tongues is not a function for the earth but for the spiritual world. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is an event in the heavenly places. Although it is manifested on earth, speaking in tongues has its purpose in the spiritual world.

When in the natural world a child is born it starts to make itself heard immediately and before long it imitates the sounds which it hears from its mother. Of course it does not understand the meaning of these sounds, but in proportion with its spiritual development the range of sounds increases and finally it also starts to understand what it says. Every normal human speaks a language. His spirit provides the ideas and his mind the words and sentences. Many people speak more than one language and are able to express themselves more or less fluently in these languages.

The Holy Spirit "knows everything" both in the natural and unseen world, (1John 3:20). He knows the tongues of men and of angels, (1Cor 13:1). So, we should not be thinking that it's such a great miracle when the Spirit of God who dwells in us prompts us to speak in languages which we have never learned. "And they began to speak in other tongues (languages), as the Spirit gave them utterance". On the day of Pentecost the foreigners were amazed and wondered, saying, "Are not all these who are speaking Galileans? And how is it that we hear, each of us in his own native language?", (Acts 2:4-8).
Paul admitted, "If I pray in a tongue my spirit prays, (by receiving the words from the Holy Spirit), but my mind is unfruitful", (1Cor 14:14). The Spirit of God inspires the words which otherwise are provided by the human spirit and regulated and controlled by the mind. Through this gift we speak "not to men but to God", (1Cor 14:2).

This basic gift of the Holy Spirit requires that our spirit is directed at and attuned to the Holy Spirit. If a child is not attuned to the mother it will not speak the sounds it hears from her. This first spiritual gift, this speaking in new tongues, is oftentimes a real stumbling stone for a natural minded Christian. Nevertheless, it is the means for the uplifting of the spiritual man's life and a proof "not for the believers but for unbelievers", (1Cor 14:4 & 22).

Concerning the baptism in the Holy Spirit, the Lord said to the woman at the well, "'Whoever shall drink of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life", (John 4:14). This spring of water will keep a Christian's life green and crisp and fruitful. It also means healing and life for an injured and groaning creation.

The Lord has promised: "He who believes in me, as the scripture has said, "Out of his heart shall flow rivers of living water. Now this He said about the Spirit, which those who believed in Him were to receive", (John 7:38-39).
 

Rex

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Oct 17, 2012
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Thanks you Pockets
For taking the time and effort in the strength of our Lord to expand the true meaning of the two baptisms.

I left a hole, a place If you will for those that know scripture to see,"quote below" not because I nor you have the power to revel, but the spirit within us does.
I want to drive home the OT message threw Moses that in itself is the story of rebirth, the coming out of Egypt into the promised land. Here in my post I simply said, "I hope you know the story"
I closed this paragraph in hopes those that know the words, that the spirit would then revel the truth, but I see there are people here on this forum that are very young and have not yet received the gift. Many have a limited biblical background or an incomplete understanding.


The part I left out

Cornelius, and his house hold were never baptized yet they received the spirit by hearing the word, by the speaking of the word, water in the from of the Holy Spirit flowed out. Now this is the final manifestation of salvation promised to Abraham "all nations" and symbolically prophesied by God threw Moses. In the wilderness Mosses was first told to strike the rock "Jesus crucified" and water flowed out for the people of Israel. The second time Moses was instructed to SPEAK TO THE ROCK, "Cornelius and his household" but he didn't and in his frustration with the nation again struck the rock. I hope you know the story.
The Rock that brought forth water is of course Jesus, water symbolic of the Holy Spirit flowed out giving life in the spirit just as it gives life to the flesh.
I want to pull the promise of Abraham further in to this symbolic meaning, to further reinforce the OT shadow with the reality "the fulfillment" of the NT.

15 Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven, 16 and said: “By Myself I have sworn, says the Lord, because you have done this thing, and have not withheld your son, your only son— 17 blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies. 18 In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” 19 So Abraham returned to his young men, and they rose and went together to Beersheba; and Abraham dwelt at Beersheba.
Look first at the words second time. "Then the Angel of the Lord called to Abraham a second time out of heaven," The first time was to stop Abraham from following what the Lord has instructed. The first time represents the flesh as we will see later as well. Abraham in his faith was doing. Repent for the kingdom of heaven is at hand, repent and be baptized in water.
11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, “Abraham, Abraham!”
So he said, “Here I am.”
12 And He said, “Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for now I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me.”
The Lord seen an knew in Abraham's heart he was going to do as the Lord had instructed him, "believe by faith" and sacrifice his only son. This is the Rock Moses first struck, God provided "Himself a sacrifice" just as He provided a ram to Abraham. The NT is full of teachings about the testing of your faith.

The second time the Lord calls, He Abraham receives the promise. Just as we see the two baptisms, the first John's preparatory water --->> Abraham's obedience--> preparatory John 14:23. The first is repentance, obedience, by faith. Then comes the promise to us, the HS, the promise to both Abraham's descendents and then to the nations. And again its in two stages just as we see the the Rock first struck, then spoken to. The spoken to Rock is Jesus setting on High at the right hand of the Father the first was Jesus in flesh being crucified. Two stages first the promise to Israel then to the nations. First water baptism then spirit baptism.

Abraham's descendents received the promise because of Abraham's action. Just as Israel received the promise threw Jesus actions. They became the first, they became the vessel that salvation would be delivered threw. They would receive the first fruits of Gods plan. The flesh threw the law given to Moses, preparing them to receive the gift of the promised land. This is John's baptism in a nut shell. To prepare the way of the Lord. First stage, water baptism, the flesh. Repent and be baptized.

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Abraham obeyed and the promise was given, just as we obey by faith and the promise is given "the HS".
But God in His infinite wisdom chose to send a warning threw Moses, a warning about not not being obedient, lacking faith, and or not properly understanding the message.

Numbers 20
New King James Version (NKJV)


Moses’ Error at Kadesh
20 Then the children of Israel, the whole congregation, came into the Wilderness of Zin in the first month, and the people stayed in Kadesh; and Miriam died there and was buried there.
2 Now there was no water for the congregation; so they gathered together against Moses and Aaron. 3 And the people contended with Moses and spoke, saying: “If only we had died when our brethren died before the Lord! 4 Why have you brought up the assembly of the Lord into this wilderness, that we and our animals should die here? 5 And why have you made us come up out of Egypt, to bring us to this evil place? It is not a place of grain or figs or vines or pomegranates; nor is there any water to drink.” 6 So Moses and Aaron went from the presence of the assembly to the door of the tabernacle of meeting, and they fell on their faces. And the glory of the Lord appeared to them.
7 Then the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, 8 “Take the rod; you and your brother Aaron gather the congregation together. Speak to the rock before their eyes, and it will yield its water; thus you shall bring water for them out of the rock, and give drink to the congregation and their animals.” 9 So Moses took the rod from before the Lord as He commanded him.
10 And Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly together before the rock; and he said to them, “Hear now, you rebels! Must we bring water for you out of this rock?” 11 Then Moses lifted his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came out abundantly, and the congregation and their animals drank.
12 Then the Lord spoke to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not believe Me, to hallow Me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.”
13 This was the water of Meribah,[a] because the children of Israel contended with the Lord, and He was hallowed among them.
This is the second time water was brought forth from the Rock. Symbolic of the second baptism. John prepared the way "the first", and Jesus confirms in the second baptism, the promise is confirmed, sent, the seal of the Holy Spirit, just as God confirmed in Abraham the promise " because you have obeyed My voice" Moses didn't obey just as many today don't obey or understand the true meaning and message of God. Many today believe and confuse the message of salvation; in that they never enter into the promised land. Just as Moses was not allowed to lead the people in and he himself never entered in. Why because he misrepresented God to the people. Today as well as in the days of the Apostles, many misrepresent God and in that they can not lead people out of Egypt "and into the promised land" they themselves can not enter in, just as Moses was beyond doubt one of the greatest men of old was refused the privilege of leading the people because of miss representation. How much more is this truth represented in many teachers today? Certainly God will never allow passage into the land without proper representation. He didn't with Moses and He won't with many today.

The same is true today about the teaching of salvation. Just as Moses missed represented the second baptism, the Spirit. The second calling of water from the rock by speaking to the rock. God blessed Mosses, and thank God for the warning that we may understand and enter into the promised land, Moses never went in. Do you understand that? He Moses never symbolic entered into the promised land. Just as many today by not understanding and/ or misrepresenting God never enter in. God reads hearts, and He and He alone sends the gift of the Holy Spirit, What do we see in this story of Moses? We see that If you don't follow "understand" then you don't enter in. I firmly believe that If you hold misconceptions about the word, salvation, If you don't properly understand in your heart and by faith just as Abraham did "you instead forsake being tested", you do not enter in. Look at the testing of faith Abraham went threw before he received the promise. Standing by faith ready to plunge a sacrificial knife into his "second" only son "the inheritance of God". The second again, the first was of the flesh the second from above.

Symbolic again, Eve had two sons Cain and Able---> Cain killed Able just as the Nation of Israel "the flesh" killed Jesus the promise of the spirit, Isaac had twins as well, so also was Esau the first then Jacob. Esau selling his birth right to Jacob, again the first of the two baptisms, as well as the first of salvation the Jews.
We see the nation of Israel being the first born in Jesus but the fleshly nation sold there birth right just as Esau did, and killed Jesus as Cain did--> but those of the promise of the spirit were saved. There is always two Israels, just as we see two baptisms, two sons, two nations Israel of the flesh and Israel of the promise.

We also have two natures, many don't take hold of the second.

There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.”[d] The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord[e] from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are those who are heavenly. --------->>>> 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear[f] the image of the heavenly Man.
I'm not a great writer, I struggle with the pen--> but I pray that in my weakness the Lord may be manifest.
 

MTPockets

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Aug 4, 2012
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Hi! 'Rex'
Ummm, I'm jus' on my way out the door here to do some mundane task that's become more urgent because of procrastination ... but I wanted to hurriedly say that it takes all kinds of personalities and talents to speak about the Word (thoughts) of God. Yeah, I tend to compose long-winded stuff ... others have the talent to make things 'short n' sweet' (I really envy these!) ... still even others have that uncanny ability to say something astonishing in a mere sentence which graps a hold of the inner-man in a most remarkable way.
So, Rex, you shouldn't be so harsh on yourself. I enjoy reading your comments/posts here very much. I actually look forward to seeing them.
No matter what happens, Rex, keep in the flow here ... speak from your heart ... whether you think they might be stumbling words 'er not. It isn't for you to judge the value of your thoughts (spiritual treasures); it is for the reader who has that task.
If the truth be known, I oftentimes think it might be a waste of time for me to offer my opinions in a forum such as this ... or anywhere on the Internet. Plus, it takes alot of time for me to put the ideas together and I don't always have the luxury of 'spare' time.
But I'm always reminded of the man who first introduced me to the Gospel. He too was busy and he too oftentimes thought that his street ministry was for naught. Goodness, he was the very last person anyone would have guessed to be wanting to speak with the vile and hopeless. But he did ... and I'm forever grateful for that.
So, Rex, keep smiling! God is good! There's a reason why you and I and everyone else keep coming back here day-to-day. It's just that we don't always recognize it so easily.
 

IanLC

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Encounter Team
Mar 22, 2011
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The disciples did not have the Holy Spirit when they believed but had to wait for the fulfillment of the promise at Pentecost (Acts 1:5;8). When Pentecost came the 120 in the Upper Room (including the disciples) were filled/ baptized with the Holy Spirit and the first evidence was speaking in other tongues (Acts 2:1-4). The disciples became apostles by the power and person of the Holy Spirit. The crowd that heard Peter's message believed in Jesus by Peter's preaching and yet Peter still told them to repent and be baptized in Jesus name and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost (Acts 2:38)! Every time the Holy Ghost filled people there was a manifestation (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 4:31, Luke 1:41, 67). The Gentiles believers received the Holy Ghost by hearing the word preached (Acts 10:44-46) and they spoke in tongues and prophesied! When the church asked for deacons the deacons had to be ones full of the Holy Spirit not just the average believers (Acts 6:1-3). This shows that even the apostles understood that there was a difference between a believers who do not have the Holy Spirit and those that do. In Acts 19:1-6 The Apostle Paul meets disciples that believed in Jesus but had not received the gift of the Holy Ghost he laid his hands on them and they received the Holy Ghost and spoke in tongues! Its a powerful experience for witnessing and living holy.
 

John Zain

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UHCAIan said:
This shows that even the apostles understood that there was a difference
between believers who do not have the Holy Spirit and those that do.
Yes, indeed ... and I just wanted to make sure there is no confusion about the above.

Believers "have" the Holy Spirit.
Those who have been baptized with the Holy Spirit have this in addition to "having" the Holy Spirit.
 

Rex

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So If I'm understanding you both correctly, you are saying that tongues are the evidence the proof of the HS?
 

IanLC

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Rex said:
So If I'm understanding you both correctly, you are saying that tongues are the evidence the proof of the HS?
I believe that tongues were the first biblical evidence of people receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus it is the initial meaning first evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the fruit of the Holy Spirit and holiness are the main evidence of the inner abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.( Hebrews 12:14,Matthew 7:16). For the word of the Lord Jesus declares that "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9).
 

Rex

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What I see at Pentecost is the disciples, those that received the spirit speaking in "tongues" some people heard and understood them clearly in their own language, others didn't understand a word and said they were drunk.

Peter then testified that Cornelius house received in the same way as they had. Now why would Peter make that distinction and not in every case say it was the same. I believe it was the promise to Abraham first to the Jews and then to the nations. Thats why Peter makes the notation that it was just as we had received they spoke in tongues, the pouring out of the HS on the Gentiles, which was also orchestrated by angels and visions prior to the event.

Pauls NT teachings are completely silent about the necessity or evidence of tongues in every case. He should have known he probably witnessed 10s of 1000s of HS births. Yet he never makes mention of its necessity of as a sign or evidence.
 

IanLC

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Rex said:
What I see at Pentecost is the disciples, those that received the spirit speaking in "tongues" some people heard and understood them clearly in their own language, others didn't understand a word and said they were drunk.

Peter then testified that Cornelius house received in the same way as they had. Now why would Peter make that distinction and not in every case say it was the same. I believe it was the promise to Abraham first to the Jews and then to the nations. Thats why Peter makes the notation that it was just as we had received they spoke in tongues, the pouring out of the HS on the Gentiles, which was also orchestrated by angels and visions prior to the event.

Pauls NT teachings are completely silent about the necessity or evidence of tongues in every case. He should have known he probably witnessed 10s of 1000s of HS births. Yet he never makes mention of its necessity of as a sign or evidence.
I beg to differ on that. The Apostle Paul clearly establishes tongues as an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." (1 Corinthians 12:7-10). The Apostle Paul says that not everyone speaks in tongues because not everyone understands the gift. The Apostle Paul also says that he speaks in tongues more than all of them (1 Corinthians 14:18). He also states that he wished that everyone spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5) and the Apostle Paul commands that people forbid not speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). He also goes into great detail on the proper use and function of tongues it edifies the believer and the congregation. Jesus also declared that in His name people would speak in new tongues (Mark 16:17). The prophet Isaiah also prophesies about this experience in Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people."
 

Rex

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By your own testimony you and Paul are not in agreement.

UHCAIan said:
I believe that tongues were the first biblical evidence of people receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and thus it is the initial meaning first evidence of receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit but the fruit of the Holy Spirit and holiness are the main evidence of the inner abiding presence of the Holy Ghost.( Hebrews 12:14,Matthew 7:16). For the word of the Lord Jesus declares that "You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ." (Romans 8:9).
UHCAIan said:
I beg to differ on that. The Apostle Paul clearly establishes tongues as an evidence of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. "Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." (1 Corinthians 12:7-10). The Apostle Paul says that not everyone speaks in tongues because not everyone understands the gift. The Apostle Paul also says that he speaks in tongues more than all of them (1 Corinthians 14:18). He also states that he wished that everyone spoke in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:5) and the Apostle Paul commands that people forbid not speaking in tongues (1 Corinthians 14:39). He also goes into great detail on the proper use and function of tongues it edifies the believer and the congregation. Jesus also declared that in His name people would speak in new tongues (Mark 16:17). The prophet Isaiah also prophesies about this experience in Isaiah 28:11 "For with stammering lips and another tongue will He speak to this people."
My next point where does Paul say because not everyone understands the gift
(1 Corinthians 12:7-10). The Apostle Paul says that not everyone speaks in tongues because not everyone understands the gift.
I'll leave the rest alone but you continue in what I see as a very liberal interpretation of Paul's teaching.
In 1 Cor 14 Paul is not speaking of the same tongues that fell at Pentecost, why do I know that because he tells them someone must interpret.
Do you see the need of an interpreter in Acts 2? He goes on to say that the one that speaks in this tongue edifies themselves. Thats not what happened at Pentecost. you do as you please the main reason I questioned you and John is I'm not going to allow your belief as you first stated, above to piggy back on mine and pockets post without being questioned.
 

IanLC

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I never piggy backed off what you said Rex. I do not know where that has come from. I do not have a liberal interpretation of Paul writing. Neither of my statements are in conflict with each other. The Apostle Paul said not all speak this stems from a lot of things lack of belief, knowledge, faith and understanding on tongues and the Holy Ghost. And second the tongues that were present in Acts and in Paul's writing are the same! The reason He spoke on tongues was to train up the gentile believers on the gift and the proper use of tongues. And as I have stated those that have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost will speak in tongues as revealed in the Holy Writ but the most important evidence is the fruit of the Holy Spirit and a lifestyle of holiness! You can speak in all the tongues you want if you are not sanctified and living holy no matter what your confession you will not see the Lord Jesus!
 

Rex

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Its simply distinguishing my belief from yours this is the only thing John starts post about, Pentecostal beliefs.
I just want it known I don't share the same enthusiasm, I have also made that clear in the believers being inhabited by demons thread.
I don't believe it and both doctrines lack NT evidence.
 

IanLC

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Rex said:
Its simply distinguishing my belief from yours this is the only thing John starts post about, Pentecostal beliefs.
I just want it known I don't share the same enthusiasm, I have also made that clear in the believers being inhabited by demons thread.
I don't believe it and both doctrines lack NT evidence.
This is a general statement. What doctrines lack New Testament evidence? And what is so wrong with being a Pentecostal Christian?
 

Rex

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I'll make it real simple, I asked you and John this question.

So If I'm understanding you both correctly, you are saying that tongues are the evidence the proof of the HS?

To which you replied.

Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit

Which can not be found in the NT teachings, but its taught in pentecostal churches.
Is that now clear? My disagreement with your "I believe tongues will accompany the HS baptism"
 

IanLC

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Rex said:
I'll make it real simple, I asked you and John this question.

So If I'm understanding you both correctly, you are saying that tongues are the evidence the proof of the HS?

To which you replied.

Yet personally I believe that speaking in tongues will accompany someone who has received the baptism of the Holy Spirit

Which can not be found in the NT teachings, but its taught in pentecostal churches.
Is that now clear? My disagreement with your "I believe tongues will accompany the HS baptism"
How is it not taught in New Testament teaching? It stated in the Book of Acts on several occasions (Acts 2:1-4, Acts 10:44, Acts 19:1-6) and in the Apostle Paul's teaching he speaks of tongues. So I am not understanding where you are culminating your opinion from? Tongues are the first (initial) biblical evidence of the baptism and infilling of the Holy Ghost! Along with a holy lifestyle and the fruit of the Holy Spirit! Tongues are NOT the only evidence holiness is one along with tongues. I would rather you live holy than speak in tongues! The Holy Spirit is a quickening spirit and a refining fire (Romans 8:11). And God is a consuming fire (Hebrews 12:29). And when Jesus gave up His Ghost/ Spirit the tombs of the dead men were opened and they began to walk. When you have received the Holy Ghost you will move and God will manifest His presence! That is why in Jude 1:20 the bible says "But you, dear friends, build yourselves up in your most holy faith and pray in the Holy Spirit." Not just regular prayer but Jude emphasized praying in the Holy Spirit! Likewise the Apostle Paul emphasizes it as well in 1 Corinthians 14:2 "For if you have the ability to speak in tongues, you will be talking only to God, since people won't be able to understand you. You will be speaking by the power of the Spirit, but it will all be mysterious." and 1 Corinthians 14:4 "A person who speaks in tongues is strengthened personally, but one who speaks a word of prophecy strengthens the entire church." and in Ephesians as a part of his teaching on spiritual warfare the Apostle Paul states in Ephesians 6:18 "And pray in the Spirit on all occasions with all kinds of prayers and requests. With this in mind, be alert and always keep on praying for all the saints.". The gift of tongues is a part of the New Testament and is biblical. And I leave you with this Ephesians 5:18 "Stop getting drunk with wine, which leads to wild living, but keep on being filled with the Spirit" and John 7:38 -39"Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him.By this he meant the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were later to receive. Up to that time the Spirit had not been given, since Jesus had not yet been glorified." also Matthew 3:11 ""I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire." and finally my brother in Christ Jesus one of my favorite scriptures:
2 Corinthians 1:22 "set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come." and Mark 16:17 "And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues" and Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."