"Prove it!"
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Well Aspen we can be leaders, you gotta get with it you look like you are about 35 or so ask yourself what the average non christian 35 year old does in your area. Do you love your enemies ?
Prentis
New Member
Well said. I think, to be honest, that the very fact we try to turn the need of understanding that nothing is ours into owning nothing is part of our mistake of trying to 'own' something. When we do that, we are trying to take the fact we should count nothing as our own, and make it literal.
But then a man who has nothing physically might consider Christ his, or his spiritual gift his, even if it isn't and fall into the same trap. Am I making any sense? I just think we need to be careful to always apply things according to spiritual understanding.
Let's do a breakdown then, where Aspen apparently sees through a different glass than many believers I know...
In 2 Cor.4, Apostle Paul revealed that per Christ Jesus and The New Covenant, the light which God commanded to shine in the darkness has now shined in the hearts of believers, "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor.4:6). It has shined upon those who believe, while it has not with those who are still blinded in unbelief.Paul goes on to explain the "treasure" is not of our "earthen vessels", so the excellency of the power would be of God and not us. Thus the actual ones that are still... groping in the dark are the unbelievers who are blinded to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We've already been given solid proof. It's simply a matter of believing God has done, and will do, what He said in His Word, as witnessed through His servants the prophets and Apostles about Christ's Blood shed on the cross for those who would believe...
Rom 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By Whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost Which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom we have now received the atonement.
(KJV)
In Psalms 22, God gave David to prophesy of Christ's crucifixion, which was around 1,000 years before... it would actually occur. David was given to describe even the events of those who would cast lots upon Jesus' robes. There are multitudes of Bible prophecies that God gave in His Word that came to pass as written. Who else has done that? There is no religion of man that can do that. How much solid proof then, does one really need that God truly exists? I can understand how the unbelieving don't know about that solid proof, because they won't read God's Letter He sent to us all.
That event was from the working of the unbelievers who were blinded. Per God's Word, we know... not all were blinded about God, for Shem's lineage from Noah was preserved, of whose lineage Christ would come.
Not all of them were in disbelief. God destroyed those who did remain in unbelief, as they never made it into the promised land He promised Abraham. Even in that time, there were some among the children of Israel that tried to raise up a rebellion against Moses, and God destroyed them, and the people left feared, and certainly then did believe.
The pagan Canaanites which the children of Israel did not completely destroy per God's command (Judges 2 & 3), caused much of the problem of paganism creeping into Israel, as God said He would leave them among Israel to try them, to see if Israel would follow Him, or not. So those pagans acted as purge upon the unfaithful only, to crop off the dead branches among the unfaithful of Israel. It's still... in effect for today for Christianity too. The end result in the days of those OT prophets? Many of them were killed for their Faith, while God still preserved those like Elijah. The faithful among Israel survived all that. And most of it would have been prevented if the children of Israel had only done what God commanded in destroying the specific pagan nations out of the land of Canaan which He passed His sentence upon because of their evil deeds.
The main ones demanding a miracle as a sign from Christ Jesus were the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees and priests that wanted to destroy Jesus; it was not the multitudes of people that followed Him that He taught. What the blind scribes and Pharisees asked for was a show, to prove Who He is. But the faithful, they simply 'asked' Jesus to heal them in full knowledge of Who stood before them. Big difference.
You must mean the period of Christian history where many different Bible translations existed, and was causing divisions in Christian Europe. This was one of the main reasons why king James of England commanded an English translation be done, and it was for the benefit of the English speaking peoples. It went against those in Rome who thought to rule over The Church in keeping Holy Writ away from the common people (which they still do today in many places in Europe). That the 1611 KJV Bible is still the best English translation to date reveals God's Hand in that working through king James and the translators.
Some of the practices by the Roman Church in early Europe were of men's doctrines and creeds made outside of Holy Writ. Same working the children of Israel had to go through with the pagan Canaanites, serving as a purge upon the unfaithful dead branches among God's people in that time. To not be able to recognize that is to not be able to recognize that working is still going on among Christianity today. To not understand it can mean not having discernment by The Holy Spirit.
By that, all you've done is reveal your Biblical illiteracy. For all that is written of in God's Holy Writ, though God's Word does not use any such "rapture" wordings that men's doctrines do. Confusion of those things in Holy Writ, once again, comes from the tests of men's doctrines that God has left among His people, to try them, to see if they will listen to Him and follow, or not. Same principle from all the way back in Judges 2 & 3 concerning God's testing upon the children of Israel by crept in unawares ordained to do that temptation of God's people (Jude 1). Reading and study in all of God's Word reveals this matter, many times.
My response in no.10 applies to this one too. For the events of endtime prophecy to be fulfilled 'as written', another Jewish temple in Jerusalem is required. The fact that orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have for many years now been gathering the materials to build it should be an eye opener about the plan to do just that. It's probably what has the nations of Islam all stirred up in the past few decades when the Jews began stock-piling articles for the new temple. The Sanhedrin in Jerusalem has formed up again, and the search for Levitical priests for the new temple of the lineage of the tribe of Levi started a few years ago. Even new cornerstones have already been cut.
All that reveals you are not paying attention to what God has already told His faithful, and that you are more interested in having it 'your own way' instead of how God says it will come to pass per His Holy Writ.
In 2 Cor.4, Apostle Paul revealed that per Christ Jesus and The New Covenant, the light which God commanded to shine in the darkness has now shined in the hearts of believers, "to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ" (2 Cor.4:6). It has shined upon those who believe, while it has not with those who are still blinded in unbelief.Paul goes on to explain the "treasure" is not of our "earthen vessels", so the excellency of the power would be of God and not us. Thus the actual ones that are still... groping in the dark are the unbelievers who are blinded to The Gospel of Jesus Christ.
We've already been given solid proof. It's simply a matter of believing God has done, and will do, what He said in His Word, as witnessed through His servants the prophets and Apostles about Christ's Blood shed on the cross for those who would believe...
Rom 5:1-11
1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
2 By Whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.
3 And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;
4 And patience, experience; and experience, hope:
5 And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost Which is given unto us.
6 For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.
7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.
8 But God commendeth His love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
9 Much more then, being now justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.
10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by Whom we have now received the atonement.
(KJV)
In Psalms 22, God gave David to prophesy of Christ's crucifixion, which was around 1,000 years before... it would actually occur. David was given to describe even the events of those who would cast lots upon Jesus' robes. There are multitudes of Bible prophecies that God gave in His Word that came to pass as written. Who else has done that? There is no religion of man that can do that. How much solid proof then, does one really need that God truly exists? I can understand how the unbelieving don't know about that solid proof, because they won't read God's Letter He sent to us all.
That event was from the working of the unbelievers who were blinded. Per God's Word, we know... not all were blinded about God, for Shem's lineage from Noah was preserved, of whose lineage Christ would come.
Not all of them were in disbelief. God destroyed those who did remain in unbelief, as they never made it into the promised land He promised Abraham. Even in that time, there were some among the children of Israel that tried to raise up a rebellion against Moses, and God destroyed them, and the people left feared, and certainly then did believe.
The pagan Canaanites which the children of Israel did not completely destroy per God's command (Judges 2 & 3), caused much of the problem of paganism creeping into Israel, as God said He would leave them among Israel to try them, to see if Israel would follow Him, or not. So those pagans acted as purge upon the unfaithful only, to crop off the dead branches among the unfaithful of Israel. It's still... in effect for today for Christianity too. The end result in the days of those OT prophets? Many of them were killed for their Faith, while God still preserved those like Elijah. The faithful among Israel survived all that. And most of it would have been prevented if the children of Israel had only done what God commanded in destroying the specific pagan nations out of the land of Canaan which He passed His sentence upon because of their evil deeds.
The main ones demanding a miracle as a sign from Christ Jesus were the unbelieving scribes and Pharisees and priests that wanted to destroy Jesus; it was not the multitudes of people that followed Him that He taught. What the blind scribes and Pharisees asked for was a show, to prove Who He is. But the faithful, they simply 'asked' Jesus to heal them in full knowledge of Who stood before them. Big difference.
You must mean the period of Christian history where many different Bible translations existed, and was causing divisions in Christian Europe. This was one of the main reasons why king James of England commanded an English translation be done, and it was for the benefit of the English speaking peoples. It went against those in Rome who thought to rule over The Church in keeping Holy Writ away from the common people (which they still do today in many places in Europe). That the 1611 KJV Bible is still the best English translation to date reveals God's Hand in that working through king James and the translators.
Some of the practices by the Roman Church in early Europe were of men's doctrines and creeds made outside of Holy Writ. Same working the children of Israel had to go through with the pagan Canaanites, serving as a purge upon the unfaithful dead branches among God's people in that time. To not be able to recognize that is to not be able to recognize that working is still going on among Christianity today. To not understand it can mean not having discernment by The Holy Spirit.
By that, all you've done is reveal your Biblical illiteracy. For all that is written of in God's Holy Writ, though God's Word does not use any such "rapture" wordings that men's doctrines do. Confusion of those things in Holy Writ, once again, comes from the tests of men's doctrines that God has left among His people, to try them, to see if they will listen to Him and follow, or not. Same principle from all the way back in Judges 2 & 3 concerning God's testing upon the children of Israel by crept in unawares ordained to do that temptation of God's people (Jude 1). Reading and study in all of God's Word reveals this matter, many times.
My response in no.10 applies to this one too. For the events of endtime prophecy to be fulfilled 'as written', another Jewish temple in Jerusalem is required. The fact that orthodox Jews in Jerusalem have for many years now been gathering the materials to build it should be an eye opener about the plan to do just that. It's probably what has the nations of Islam all stirred up in the past few decades when the Jews began stock-piling articles for the new temple. The Sanhedrin in Jerusalem has formed up again, and the search for Levitical priests for the new temple of the lineage of the tribe of Levi started a few years ago. Even new cornerstones have already been cut.
All that reveals you are not paying attention to what God has already told His faithful, and that you are more interested in having it 'your own way' instead of how God says it will come to pass per His Holy Writ.
I think knowledge is important. We can go through life having a vague notion that God loves us and that Jesus died for us, but until we really dig into the Bible and follow the progression of history...of man's sinful need and God's unending love, our love for God will remain as shallow as our understanding. Truly, the more I comprehend (in my very limited way!) just how much God has done for me and for the whole world, the more amazed and humbled I am...the more I love Him!
But having said that, I do believe that we can turn Christianity into a theology game. It becomes about being right...and the importance of having correct doctrine to point the finger at all the heretic's can lead a person away from the truth...that Christianity is about having a new heart in Christ. That new heart invades our lives...how we think, how we act, how we interact...how we view doctrine and bring that doctrine to bear in our own lives. I think as long as we hold tight to the idea that we need God living within us, that we are truly seeking a daily relationship with Him and that we should strive to grow in Him every day, then a deeper knowledge of the word He gave us shouldn't be harmful...only helpful towards that goal!
But having said that, I do believe that we can turn Christianity into a theology game. It becomes about being right...and the importance of having correct doctrine to point the finger at all the heretic's can lead a person away from the truth...that Christianity is about having a new heart in Christ. That new heart invades our lives...how we think, how we act, how we interact...how we view doctrine and bring that doctrine to bear in our own lives. I think as long as we hold tight to the idea that we need God living within us, that we are truly seeking a daily relationship with Him and that we should strive to grow in Him every day, then a deeper knowledge of the word He gave us shouldn't be harmful...only helpful towards that goal!
You bring up a good point, Prentis. I was thinking that if we all lived a monastic lifestyle, we would not have anything to share in a materialistic sense. God gives each one of us exactly what we need.
Bless you, brother.
-- If you are truly going to share the Gospel as Christ requires, you must include the WHOLE truth.
You can be delivered. Your sins can be forgiven. You can be a new creature in Christ. You can spend eternity in happiness with Christ.
But God also has expectations of those who are going to follow him.
The ones that only want to share the love part - at the same time doing a blanket criticism of those actually doing ALL of what Christ calls us to do - are part of the problem.
-- You at least need to be complete about what Christ "asked them to do."
Christ called them (and us) to share the Gospel message. The ENTIRE Gospel message.
The fact that He loves us enough to die for our sins, will change our lives if they let Him, and has a place waiting for us in Heaven if they follow Him.
BUT, He also has (justified) expectations. Striving to obey His Word and removing sin from their lives.
Jesus warned that we would be hated because of Him. Why?
Because some of what HE EXPECTS us to share goes against man's idea of what is okay and what isn't.
You fail to see that if you truly love someone then you are willing to share the truth with them. Not just the rosey parts, but the difficult parts, as well.
You continue to ignore how many time that Jesus Christ Himself warned about the dangers of sin and the perils of Hell in His ministry.
We are to share the Good News that Christ loves us and died for us....but we must also explain that His love has justifiable requirements, as well.
You, however, feel that a process OTHER than what Christ used is best.
Christians should witness in love but also let people know that there are certain things that God Almighty expects of them, too.
You want to give only half the equasion.
With that you are actually doing more harm than good and there will be a number of people standing before God sputtering, "But but but..."
And please spare me the blanket criticism of Christians spewing hatred and criticism.
The fact of the matter is that they are the small majority. I can personally attest that you can share with the lost and ensure they understand both how much Christ loves them and did for them AND what is expected of them by Christ.
You share by example, pointing out that Jesus loves them as much as He loves you and died for them just as much as He died for you.
But you also pointed out that your sin had to be addressed just as much as their sin needs to be addressed and that in God's eyes one type of sin is no better or worse than the other.
You accuse Ducky of "impeding the work of Christ" but your pick-and-choose Cafeteria Christianity is actually the problem.
Prentis
New Member
Exactly! :)
To the disciples, Jesus asked to follow him and leave everything behind, then in Acts though, they share everything and have much, and the Spirit does not tell them to get rid of it. That is because they all counted everything they had as being God's, and their brothers'. That is how we own nothing! :)
Paul also said he labored, made carpets, to pay for his own living, that he may bring glory to God!
Excellent Foreigner! We know Jesus loved and loves more than anyone...but we also know that in scripture, Jesus talks of hell more than anyone else. Why....to warn us.
Love is so important, but I think too often people excuse so much sin under the title of 'love'. I went to a wedding last weekend, and the minister prattled on about love, and that love is everything and if we have love, we have God. Man, I nearly puked! Love is not a conduit to God....love is from God. If we have God...if we are saved, born again Christians, then we have love, are called to love and have the most wonderful example of love to follow....Jesus! And what did Jesus do...He always included the good as well as the bad. If His only message was 'love everyone'...then His ministry would have taken only a week, not three years! He spent those three years teaching us to love, but also teaching us how to live; how to govern ourselves and shepard others and His wisdom is wonderful. Yes, love is important, but real love is telling the whole truth as Jesus sees it, not as we do.
Robbie
New Member
I trip out that on the one hand Jesus rebuked the pharisees for demanding a sign... and on the other hand Jesus said that unless people see signs and wonders they wouldn't believe...
When the unrighteous sinners saw signs and wonders when the sinners were healed through the forgiveness of sins... it created a love for Christ and God in their heart and belief...
Yet the self righteous pharisees couldn't even see the signs and wonders that were being done right in front of their face because of their wickedness and instead of belief it caused greater unbelief accompanied with anger and hate and malicious intent towards Christ and God even though they were the self proclaimed experts.
I like Aspen's post.. it's about knowing our Father personally... and the One that He sent... so we like them can Love forever... as ONE
When the unrighteous sinners saw signs and wonders when the sinners were healed through the forgiveness of sins... it created a love for Christ and God in their heart and belief...
Yet the self righteous pharisees couldn't even see the signs and wonders that were being done right in front of their face because of their wickedness and instead of belief it caused greater unbelief accompanied with anger and hate and malicious intent towards Christ and God even though they were the self proclaimed experts.
I like Aspen's post.. it's about knowing our Father personally... and the One that He sent... so we like them can Love forever... as ONE
What a great post!!!
I am 40 , actually - and I resettled in my college town, where mny of my classmates are ministering to the poor! I am involved in a really effective ministry - free counseling for troubled folks who cannot pay - I donate 1 day a week, as well as providing a sliding scale for my own clients. I am humbled by the work of my classmates and support them as much as I possibly can.
Hmm....you sure are wordy - It would be so much clearer to simply say "aspen is totally wrong, AMEN!"
Most monastics live active lives.
Look - as much as you have tried to silence me and parade me around your college classes - I really respect your ability to think through the Bible and Christian doctrine. Seriously!
If you really think about it - perfect love is repentance. Perfect love is what we were created to do. Perfect love is absolutely the most powerful force possible because it is the fastest way to reconciliation with God - Christ was willing to give His life to prove that!
Of course repentance - turning away from sinful habits is critical to reconciliation with God - how do we do that? We love perfectly!
I am surprised that you buy into the easy, lusty, artificial definition of love that the world promotes - I am not advocating for that at all - I am demanding what Christ demanded - perfect love that only the Spirit can teach - the kind of love that acts as a foundation of faith - not a glitzy sign board.
Com'mon Foreigner think about it! We were created to be in perfect relationship with the Father! That means perfect love - which was derailed by love for self - Christ re-focused or love back to the Father!
blessings
Sin separates humans from God. Anyone not preaching against sin is NOT showing love for the lost. Jesus and the Apostles preached against sin. They had true love for people.
Paul's love:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul didn't pull any punches.
Jesus' love:
Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
Paul's love:
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
9 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Paul didn't pull any punches.
Jesus' love:
Matthew 13:49-50 (NKJV)
49 So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come forth, separate the wicked from among the just,
50 and cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth."
How many times do I have to drill this into your head? Seriously Ducky - you are my density. Love is repentance. If you were working a job that allowed you to cut corners - turning around is doing the job as you were trained to do - no one cares about the regret and shame - all that matters is the job. Our job is to LOVE.
I guess until you understand that God means what He said.
2 Timothy 4:1-3 (KJV)
1 I charge thee therefore before God, (NOT A REQUEST) and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom; 2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
And that time is here.
-- Rach, you are spot on. Jesus, the very definition of love, "always included the good as well as the bad."
He warned people who wanted to follow Him of the difficulties they would face.
He said, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." - Matt. 16:24
Should this be the focus when we witness? Of course not.
But does it need to be given its due attention? Jesus thought so.
-- Kudos for the "Back to the Future" reference.
Indeed! I am hoping that you will quiet your fear and embrace the freedom of sound doctrine! Ducky - please! Stop hiding in the corner of literalism - look past your own nose and start preaching love rather than fear! Your knowledge of the scripture can really save lives.........
What I mean by this, is that too often sin is swept under the rug and excused by saying "It's loving...and if it's love, then God is okay with it". This is simply not true. Gay people love, unwed people love, even insane people love. Every one loves, in one way or another, by not all love and 'loving' acts are approved by God, and therefore should be approved by us.
We can see so very clearly how much love means to God, and how important it is for His people to love as well, but unless we are blind, we cannot deny that the Bible tells us that some things are just not okay...not even when they're done 'in love'. That's all I meant when I said that people excuse sin under the guise of love. If we're sinning, it cannot be a true, Godly love anyway. Make sense? I hope that restores your sense that you still know me!
Since you ignore the MANY Scriptures on the fear of the Lord then it is YOU who are hiding. I'll stick with the God of the Bible. I don't recognize your god.
Only if we don't ignore it.
2 Corinthians 7:1 (NKJV)
1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.
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