Purgatory,as explained from the NT

[Webers_Home]

.
Webster's defines "posit" as: to assume or affirm the existence of; viz:
postulate.

What Rome did in the councils of Florence and Trent, was to first of all posit
the existence of a purgatory. This essential fact can be easily discerned in
the language of paragraphs 1030, 1031, and 1032 of the Catechism. Rome
had to do that because there is no clear-cut mention of a purgatory in the
Bible. They then searched high and low to find verses that suggest their
posit is true.

That's what's known as the practice of doing violence to the Bible and
forcing it to mean things it doesn't say in writing; which is kind like holding a
conch's shell to one's ear and claiming to hear the ocean's roar. Is the ocean
in the conch shell? No; it just sounds like it's in there. Though the conch
shell came from the ocean; it cannot be expected to produce an ocean; for
example:

†. 2Pet 3:16 . . Some of brother Paul's comments are hard to understand,
and those who are ignorant and unstable have twisted his letters around to
mean something quite different from what he meant: just as they do the
other parts of Scripture-- and the result is disaster for them.

You know; I cannot help but wonder how on earth the single largest
Christian denomination in the whole world-- with some of the world's best
and brightest linguists and Bible scholars at its disposal --ever got to the
point where its Magisterium became ignorant and unstable. It's boggling.

Anyway, after formulating it's official purgatory doctrine, it then became a
Church tradition; which is, of course the best they could label it since
purgatory is a formulated doctrine rather than a revealed doctrine.

CCC.1031 . .The Church gives the name Purgatory to this final purification of
the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.
The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the
Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to
certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:

To its credit, Rome calls its purgatory doctrine a "tradition" rather than a
revelation.

Traditions aren't eo ipso evil. I mean, after all, those passed down by the
apostles are legitimate.

†. 2Thss 2:13-15 . . But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you,
brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for
salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which
He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus
Christ. Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you
were taught, whether by word or our epistle.

It's important to note in CCC.1031 that Catholicism's purgatory isn't
apostolic, but rather legislated by the Catholic Councils of Trent and Florence.
In other words: their purgatory is proprietary. Which gives rise to the question:
Is Rome's purgatory real or not? Well, I would have to say it probably isn't
because I seriously doubt it's possible for Rome's councils to just up and legislate
a purgatory into existence. If the Bible's God hasn't had a purgatory all along then
I seriously doubt He would go to the trouble of accommodating Rome by creating
a one ex post facto purely for the sake of validating Council legislation.

Buen Camino
/

 

[Foreigner]

I think there are many misconceptions about what Purgatory is and what it isn't.

I also think it is possible to explain Purgatory, mainly from the NT but using some OT (without Maccabees ) but this is not the thread to do it in now.

-- If you choose to do it, please include the justification for the Catholic Church saying you can shorten your time in Purgatory by acts - some of them financial - here on earth.

 

[epostle1]

-- If you choose to do it, please include the justification for the Catholic Church saying you can shorten your time in Purgatory by acts - some of them financial - here on earth.

A Primer on Indulgences

Myths about Indulgences

I think there are many misconceptions about what Purgatory is and what it isn't.

I also think it is possible to explain Purgatory, mainly from the NT but using some OT (without Maccabees ) but this is not the thread to do it in now.

I disagree. What is hidden in the Old is revealed in the New. The whole of scripture must be in harmony. But I am prepared to discuss purgatory strictly on the mercy and justice of God, without Bible quotes. The 'reformers' threw the baby out with the bathwater when they invented Justification By Faith Alone (JBFA), but I digress.

 

[Foreigner]

The Catholic church is teaching that even after you confess your sins and are granted forgiveness, you are still on the hook in the afterlife as far as punishment for those sins.

That is simply not the case. Jesus' blood paid the penalty of our sins. There is no additional billing after we die for sins He has forgiven us.

Yes, if you die without having confessed/addressed certain sins, God is going to have to mitigate that one way or another in His perfect will.


But for those who have specifically and in a heartfelt manner confessed specific sins and sought to repent completely, to say that they will still owe some sort of cosmic penalty for those sins.....is ridiculous.

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." - Heb. 8:12
"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." - Psalm 103:12

The Catholic stance conflicts with God's Word.

 

[epostle1]

The Catholic church is teaching that even after you confess your sins and are granted forgiveness, you are still on the hook in the afterlife as far as punishment for those sins.

That is a misconception. Purgatory is not about punishment for sins. Nowhere does scripture refer to sins as "wood, hay or straw" that needs purification so that just pure gold is left. I don't think you have a rudimentary understanding of purgatory.

That is simply not the case. Jesus' blood paid the penalty of our sins. There is no additional billing after we die for sins He has forgiven us.

There is no additional billing for a rock I throw through your window. I have to pay for it or my repentance means nothing. The Cross does not pay for the window. That is my responsibility. Similarly, the Cross does not pay for the broken windows of my life that I never got around to paying for. You do not go to hell for stealing a pen from work. You cannot enter heaven with imperfections. Few people die in a perfect state. God is all just and all merciful. In your theology, your sins get covered. In my theology, my true repentance, forgiveness and absolution further transforms my inner being. I don't go to confession to be a good Catholic, I go to confession to be a better person.

Yes, if you die without having confessed/addressed certain sins, God is going to have to mitigate that one way or another in His perfect will.

Agreed.

But for those who have specifically and in a heartfelt manner confessed specific sins and sought to repent completely, to say that they will still owe some sort of cosmic penalty for those sins.....is ridiculous.

Yes, it is ridiculous.

"For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." - Heb. 8:12

Paul is citing Jeremiah where he prophecys about the closing of the Old Covenant where justification is ultimate, not instant. This verse does not refute or negate purgatory.

"as far as the east is from the west, so far has he removed our transgressions from us." - Psalm 103:12

Yes, he removes sins, he doesn't cover them up. This affirms the Catholic stance.

The Catholic stance conflicts with God's Word.

I beg your pardon? (pun intended)

 

[us2are1]

I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, most of you anti-Catholics really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

So, read carefully. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and most of you Bible Alone adherents apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Regarding Purgatory, the word is nowhere in the Bible. But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you? Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name. Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be able to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire. And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved. So, Mr.& Mrs.Infallible Interpreter of Scripture, where is it that, after a man dies, and his works are judged, that he can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved? Hell? Nope. One suffers loss as through fire in Hell, but we both know that no one gets out of Hell. Heaven? Nope. Someone who is in Heaven is indeed saved, but we both know no one suffers loss in Heaven. So, where is it that after one dies, one could suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?

There is no purgatory in the bible. So whether you made it up or your captors made it up, call it what you like. Just leave God and Christ out of it. Because there is no purgatory in their gospel.

 

[epostle1]

There is no purgatory in the bible. So whether you made it up or your captors made it up, call it what you like. Just leave God and Christ out of it. Because there is no purgatory in their gospel.

Wrong.
Here is over 30 citations with a brief exegesis of the text, and 28 ECF quotes spanning the first 6 centuries of Christendom. Purgatory has always been a norm of Christianity until it was jettisoned by human opinion in the 15th century.

 

[Groundzero]

Wrong.
Hereis over 30 citations with a brief exegesis of the text, and 28 ECF quotes spanning the first 6 centuries of Christendom. Purgatory has always been a norm of Christianity until it was jettisoned by human opinion in the 15th century.

Works that were inspired by God or man?! Cause the Scripture verses don't support purgatory, and the Church 'father's' writings are just that: writings. Writings that were inspired by men, not the Almighty God. I would even call into question whether some of those men were True Believers. History isn't always written by who's right. It's often written by the victor, and as we well known, there are many lies that perpetrate through history. Just because it's 'history', doesn't mean it's gospel truth.

And jettisoned by human opinion?!

Seriously? As far as I'm aware, the RCC still believes in purgatory, or else we wouldn't be discussing it here

 

[neophyte]

Groundzero,Kepha has directed you to those Bible verses that explain purgatory, why don't you believe those verses?
.
Hereis over 30 citations , if you will not accept the interpretation of the verses given, please give your interpretion, then we can compare.

 

[Groundzero]

What? And have to explain painfully simple verses that have been made way to complicated in a futile attempt to support purgatory? No thanks. Three mangled and misinterpreted verses were more than enough for me. (And correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the verses I addressed were the 'key' verses that supposedly teach us that purgatory exists.)

 

[epostle1]

Works that were inspired by God or man?! Cause the Scripture verses don't support purgatory, and the Church 'father's' writings are just that: writings. Writings that were inspired by men, not the Almighty God. I would even call into question whether some of those men were True Believers. History isn't always written by who's right. It's often written by the victor, and as we well known, there are many lies that perpetrate through history. Just because it's 'history', doesn't mean it's gospel truth.

And jettisoned by human opinion?!
Seriously? As far as I'm aware, the RCC still believes in purgatory, or else we wouldn't be discussing it here

Your post is not a reply, it is a reaction. Scripture supports purgatory. So does all of Christian history. So does Judaism. Tell ya what, Groundzero, I won't present my scriptural, historical, Judaic evidence supporting purgatory if you don't impose your unproven assertions. We'll get along just fine.

The unanimous ECF's teachings testify to what has been believed consistently for 2000 years. You dismiss them at your peril. Purgatory has always been a norm of Christianity until it was jettisoned by human opinion in the 15th century. You must have skipped over "in the 15th century" , which refers to the so-called reformers. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough. Christianity without consistency is not Christianity. It is impossible for the Catholic Church to jettison any belief that came to us from Jesus and the Apostles. The reformers did that. You simply chose to deny the evidence to defend a paradigm and call it "truth".

"Denialism is choosing to deny reality as a way to avoid an uncomfortable truth.[sup][1][/sup] Author Paul O'Shea remarks, "[It] is the refusal to accept an empirically verifiable reality. It is an essentially irrational action that withholds validation of a historical experience or event"...[sup][2][/sup]

...Anthropologist Didier Fassin distinguishes between denial, defined as "the empirical observation that reality and truth are being denied", and denialism, which he defines as "an ideological position whereby one systematically reacts by refusing reality and truth".[sup][21][/sup]
Individuals or groups who reject propositions on which a scientific or scholarly consensus exists can engage in denialism when they use rhetorical tactics to give the appearance of argument or legitimate debate, when in actuality there is none.[sup][5][/sup] Rick Stoff quotes Chris Hoofnagle, a senior staff attorney at the Samuelson Law, Technology & Public Policy Clinic and senior fellow at the Berkeley Center for Law and Technology, at the University of California-Berkeley Boalt Hall School of Law:

Then there are those who engage in denialist tactics because they are protecting some 'overvalued idea' which is critical to their identity. Since legitimate dialogue is not a valid option for those who are interested in protecting bigoted or unreasonable ideas from scientific facts, their only recourse is to use these types of rhetorical tactics.[sup][22][/sup] "
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denialism​

Historical revisionism is either the legitimate scholastic re-examination of existing knowledge about a historical event, or the illegitimate distortion of the historical record such that certain events appear in a more or less favourable light...
...In attempting to revise the past, illegitimate historical revisionism appeals to the intellect—via techniques illegitimate to historical discourse—to advance a given interpretive historical view, typically involving war crimes or crimes against humanity. The techniques include presenting known forged documents as genuine; inventing ingenious, but implausible, reasons for distrusting genuine documents; attributing his or her own conclusions to books and sources reporting the opposite; manipulating statistical series to support the given point of view; and deliberately mis-translating texts (in languages other than the revisionist's).[sup][4][/sup] Practical examples of negationism (illegitimate historical revisionism) include Holocaust denial and some Soviet historiography.[sup][5][/sup][sup][6][/sup] Contemporarily, hate groups practice negationism on the Internet. In literature, the effects of historical revisionism are usually described in science fiction novels such as Nineteen Eighty-Four (1949), by George Orwell. Moreover, some countries have criminalised the negationist revision of certain historical events.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_%28negationism%29

Wow. I've read 'poisonous' statements before, but this one is dripping with it. You sure you should be addressing people this way, even if they are in the wrong?

Let me make something clear: not all Christians believe in a Trinity, so I wouldn't even try using that as an argument. Because it's only going to work for some people, and even then, it doesn't pose an obstacle.

Now for a definition of purgatory. You seem to neglect posting the correct definition as defined by the Catholic Church. From the Catholic Encyclopedia, http://www.newadvent...then/12575a.htm


Purgatory (Lat., "purgare", to make clean, to purify) in accordance with Catholic teaching is a place or condition of temporal punishment for those who, departing this life in God's grace, are, not entirely free from venial faults, or have not fully paid the satisfaction due to their transgressions.
The faith of the Church concerning purgatory is clearly expressed in the Decree of Union drawn up by the Council of Florence (Mansi, t. XXXI, col. 1031), and in the decree of the Council of Trent which (Sess. XXV) defined:

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of theFathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful" (Denzinger, "Enchiridon", 983).​

Now tell me, doesn't it sound a bit sus that this doctrine is founded on ANCIENT TRADITION of fallible men? I'll say, I read the 'Scriptural' evidence. It consists of three Scripture verses which I will now proceed to address.

Mat 12:32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
I could get technical, but I really couldn't be bothered, because simplicity is just as good, if not better. Is there something wrong with the clear message Jesus was conveying? Those who blaspheme the Holy Ghost will NEVER find forgiveness. Jesus made it clear, that there will never be a stage in this life, or that of the beyond, where one will find forgiveness. It's too late once you've done it. Jesus speaks of a finality here, not a mythical place called purgatory where people who aren't so bad go to get cleansed.


1Co 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1Co 3:12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1Co 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1Co 3:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I believe Webers_home addressed this verse sufficiently. This is not talking about everyone. This is talking about Believers. And it's referring to what they build on Christ. At the end of the day, we can do so many things for Christ, but if it's not what God wanted us to do, it's all for nothing. Sort of like what Paul was speaking of in 1 Cor 13. We can speak with the tongues of angels and so many wonderful things, but without Charity, it availeth nothing.

And now for what is probably the 'strongest' verse in support of purgatory:

Luk 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Now I don't profess to be a learned man, theologian, or what not. But I would venture to say, that paradise is a waiting place for those ALREADY saved, not for those who are getting purified! This thief on the cross realized who Jesus was, in an enormous leap of faith, requested Jesus to remember him when he entered his kingdom. Notice Jesus reply, you will be with me in paradise. Paradise comes from the greek, referring to a park, an Eden. Jesus' kingdom, is the Eden that we lost. It's what man is searching for even today, but still hasn't found. The only way to regain Eden is through Jesus Christ.
The conclusion couldn't be more obvious. Paradise is not purgatory, because I really doubt that Jesus' kingdom is called purgatory! Jesus' kingdom consists of those who HAVE been saved, not those who MAY get saved.

Purgatory is for the saved, and paradise is not heaven. That's why you can't get it.

So where's all the rest of the proof for purgatory? Ummmm, oh, there we are! The 'ancient' church fathers! Like, I-don't-know-this-guy and I-don't-know-this-guy. Man, that feels so reliable. I think purgatory is sitting on some pretty shaky grounds, if its only real foundation are the words of men!

While we're on the topic of Purgatory, does that mean you believe in indulgences as well? Because indulgences play a part in purgatory . . . . :/


Forgive me, I didn't read your post thoroughly.

How could the thief be in paradise while Jesus was on earth you ask? I'll tell you how!
Jesus was God. God is omnipresent. Apparently that means that he is present everywhere. When Jesus came to earth, robed in a body of flesh, it didn't mean that he had surrendered his divine nature. He was still God, he still inhabited EVERY nook and crany of the universe, but he also had a human nature.
Jesus was omnipresent, omnipotent, and omniscient, or else he isn't God. If you believe he is God, then you have just got your answer.
Jesus wasn't confined to his physical body. He was everywhere, and poof, there goes your little 'challenge'.

The reformers were out to prove the Church had no authority to bind and loose. They invented the false doctrine of Justification By Faith Alone which eliminated purgatory by default. Modern Protestants create a straw man by ignoring or redefining "binding and loosing", a rabbinical term.

A **killer** proof for the Scriptural nature of Purgatory can be found by comparing Luke 16:19-31 with Luke 23:43. In Luke 16, Jesus speaks of the poor man Lazarus being taken up to the "Bosom of Abraham." However, despite what is commonly presumed, this cannot be Heaven, since souls did not enter Heaven at this time (not even according to Jewish theology), but awaited Jesus' death, Resurrection, and Ascension for this. Until the Lord opens the gates of Heaven ("I go to prepare a place for you"), it was not possible for humanity to enter into the Presence of God. Rather, the God-man needed to do this first in order to make a place for humanity before the Throne of the Father. Rather, this "Bosom of Abraham" in Luke 16 is what Jewish oral tradition refers to as "the Paradise of the Fathers" --the Garden of Eden, which was withdrawn from the earth; the Jewish equivalent to the Greco-Roman/pagan idea of the "Ellesian Fields" --a pleasant place, but part of Sheol/Hades/Death nonetheless.

Now, ... To show that this is the case, one only need to look at Luke 23:43, where Jesus tells the Good Thief, " **This day** you will be with me **in Paradise.** " Notice, here, that Jesus does not say, " ...in Heaven." ...And this is because, as we all know, Jesus did NOT go to Heaven THAT DAY. Rather, Jesus spent 3 days in the tomb! ...Not rising until Sunday morning. ...And we know from Scripture (e.g. 1 Peter 3:19 & 4:6) that Jesus' soul spent **that day** AMONG THE DEAD in Sheol. ...And, as John 20:17 hammers home for us, EVEN ON SUNDAY MORNING, Jesus had STILL "not yet ascended to the Father." So, the "Paradise" Jesus is talking about in Luke 23 is **absolutely** not Heaven itself. Rather, He is talking about the Paradise of the Fathers, and he is promising the Good Thief (a justly-condemned Jewish criminal) that, far from being condemned to Gehenna, he will be with Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and all the righteous patriarchs (models of Judaism) in the Paradise of the Fathers. And this would have been enough for this Jew to die in peace --saved from hell, yet not fully-sanctified so as to immediately enter Heaven.

 

[Foreigner]

Posted Yesterday, 09:56 PM

Foreigner, on 26 September 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

The Catholic church is teaching that even after you confess your sins and are granted forgiveness, you are still on the hook in the afterlife as far as punishment for those sins.

That is a misconception. Purgatory is not about punishment for sins. Nowhere does scripture refer to sins as "wood, hay or straw" that needs purification so that just pure gold is left. I don't think you have a rudimentary understanding of purgatory. - Kepha


-- http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/resources/apologetics/catholic-doctrines-and-practices/a-primer-on-indulgences/

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven,"

That is from the link you provided ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Sure SOUNDS like they are talking about the punishment of sins. Perhaps it is their use of the word "punishment" that gives that impression.

Semantics aside, it claims that in the afterlife there is still a required reckoning for sins committed on earth, even though the person has sought sincere forgiveness and Christ has granted it completely.

Sin on earth usually has earthly repercussions. Seeking God's forgiveness on earth means you do all you can here on earth to make amends for what you have done. In some cases there is little that can be done, and some there is much.

If you have truly sought forgiveness and done all you can to make amends when possible, there is NOTHING are far as a reckoning after you die.
To assume there is makes null and void the concept of the grace and mercy we are granted through Christ's death on the cross.

The very definition of God's mercy given to those who have sought heartfelt forgiveness NEGATES the concept of Purgatory.

Something else to ponder:
If Purgatory was real, then Jesus would not have been able to say to the sinner on the cross next to him: "TODAY you will be with me in paradise."
After all, even though Jesus forgave him, there are still "the effects of past, forgiven sins" that still must be addressed, no?
Remember, that man had spent his entire life sinning without seeking forgiveness up until that last moment.
The only other option is that he went to paradise, was yanked out later to endure Purgatory, and only then allowed into heaven. That makes no sense whatsoever.


The Primer you linked uses this scripture:
"The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." [2 Sam. 12:13-14; RSV]

It shows right there that the repercussions for earthly sin were dealth with on earth, as I said.
Also, have you really NOT noticed that the way God handled sin, pennance, and a wide variety of other issues was much different in the OT than when Jesus walked the earth, both before and after his crucifixion?


"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

If Purgatory were a correct concept, then this scripture can't possibly be true, because people on earth could not be directly drawn up to Christ and be with him. Again, that is because - as your link puts it - there are "the effects of past, forgiven sins" that still need to be dealt with.

It appears that it is you who is lacking "rudimenatary understanding."

 

[Episkopos]

I can give you ample biblical backing for Purgatory, but the problem is, most of you anti-Catholics really don’t want to know, do you? You prefer ignorance and falsehood to knowledge and truth.

So, read carefully. Jesus said to the thief on the cross, “TODAY thou shalt be with me in Paradise,” and most of you Bible Alone adherents apparently interpret Paradise as being Heaven and TODAY as being the end of that 24–hour calendar day they were in, right? Well then, let me ask you a question about that, All of you Infallible Interpreters of Scripture – how do you reconcile that statement of Jesus on the cross with His statement to Mary Magdalene two days later when He tells her that He has not yet ascended to the Father? In other words, how could the thief on the cross be with Jesus in Paradise “TODAY,” when two days later Jesus still hadn’t made it to Paradise?

Regarding Purgatory, the word is nowhere in the Bible. But, the word “Trinity” is nowhere in the Bible, either, yet you believe in the Trinity don’t you? Sorry, but there is evidence of Purgatory in the Bible, even if it is not mentioned by name. Here’s a quick biblical question about Purgatory that you will not be able to answer: In 1 Cor 3:10–15, it talks about how every man’s work will be made manifest on “the day” – their judgment day – and that every man’s work will be tested by fire. And that there will be some who have works that will be burned up, and they will suffer loss, as through fire, yet still be saved. So, Mr.& Mrs.Infallible Interpreter of Scripture, where is it that, after a man dies, and his works are judged, that he can suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved? Hell? Nope. One suffers loss as through fire in Hell, but we both know that no one gets out of Hell. Heaven? Nope. Someone who is in Heaven is indeed saved, but we both know no one suffers loss in Heaven. So, where is it that after one dies, one could suffer loss as through fire, yet still be saved?

First...thanks for the hostility! It warms the heart to realize that love is flowing in your heart in these discussions.

The 1 Cor, 3 reference is to the judgment seat of Christ for all believers. Some will be resurrected to honour and some to dishonour. If by purgatory you mean a judgment in fire to see what are works are made of...then that is in agreement with the word. The idea that all are "saved" and have the same quality of life after is not in the bible. In a great house there are both vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour, So there are those who will abide in light with God and those who will be cast out into outer darkness to wander for ever without a home.

Salvation simply means you don't die.....you could naked and blind, toothless and armless and still be saved.

 

[neophyte]

First...thanks for the hostility! It warms the heart to realize that love is flowing in your heart in these discussions.

The 1 Cor, 3 reference is to the judgment seat of Christ for all believers. Some will be resurrected to honour and some to dishonour. If by purgatory you mean a judgment in fire to see what are works are made of...then that is in agreement with the word. The idea that all are "saved" and have the same quality of life after is not in the bible. In a great house there are both vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour, So there are those who will abide in light with God and those who will be cast out into outer darkness to wander for ever without a home.

Salvation simply means you don't die.....you could naked and blind, toothless and armless and still be saved.

You have the wrong concept of purgation.

 

[epostle1]

First...thanks for the hostility! It warms the heart to realize that love is flowing in your heart in these discussions.

The 1 Cor, 3 reference is to the judgment seat of Christ for all believers. Some will be resurrected to honour and some to dishonour. If by purgatory you mean a judgment in fire to see what are works are made of...then that is in agreement with the word.

Yes. 1 Cor. 3:12-15 is a great definition of Purgatory. We cannot enter heaven with works that can be consumed. We must enter heaven only with works to our credit that can survive the fire. Thus God, who loves us so, provides a way for us to rid ourselves of the wood, hay, and straw in our lives so that we can enter heaven perfect and holy.

Again, this is NOT about purging sin, it is about purging the consequences of sin (paying for the broken windows) and about purging our imperfections in living the Christ-life. The not-so-good works are the wood, hay, and straw that will burn up in the purging. The good works are the gold, silver, and precious stone that will survive the purging.

Some evangelicals call this the "Judgment Seat of Christ". Our salvation is not being judged here, rather how well we lived our life for Christ is being judged. While some Evangelicals refer to this as Judgment Seat of Christ and Catholics call it Purgatory, it is the same thing.

The idea that all are "saved" and have the same quality of life after is not in the bible. In a great house there are both vessels of honour and vessels of dishonour, So there are those who will abide in light with God and those who will be cast out into outer darkness to wander for ever without a home.

Salvation simply means you don't die.....you could naked and blind, toothless and armless and still be saved.

Agreed, but I would add that those in purgatory are not in the category of those who are cast out. They are saved, but not yet purified.

 

[Brother James]

I kind of like how many Orthodox Jews view the issue of what happens after we die. Their position is that they simply don't know. Now, we Christians know that God gives us life everlasting. Eternal life is the gift of God to us as believers. How exactly He does that and how He conducts the details of the judgement(s), and so forth, is entirely in His hands. And, as the Jews teach, what ever God has in store is absolutely perfect. It will be for my best interest what ever He does for me. I need not worry about any purgatory or limbo or hell or heaven or a new earth or golden streets or pearly gates or anything. He has promised me life everlasting. I believe Him. None of the rest of this matters, and if I misunderstand about purgatory, so what? If I need such purification, well, he's only doing that for my benefit, right? I believe He did everything needed for my sins on the cross, but even if I'm wrong, so what?

 

[Foreigner]

Since Kepha threw our his little barb and then completely ignored my post, I thought I'd give him another chance:


Posted Yesterday, 09:56 PM

Foreigner, on 26 September 2012 - 12:52 PM, said:

The Catholic church is teaching that even after you confess your sins and are granted forgiveness, you are still on the hook in the afterlife as far as punishment for those sins.

That is a misconception. Purgatory is not about punishment for sins. Nowhere does scripture refer to sins as "wood, hay or straw" that needs purification so that just pure gold is left. I don't think you have a rudimentary understanding of purgatory. - Kepha


-- http://www.catholicn...on-indulgences/

"An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven,"

That is from the link you provided ^ ^ ^ ^ ^
Sure SOUNDS like they are talking about the punishment of sins. Perhaps it is their use of the word "punishment" that gives that impression.

Semantics aside, it claims that in the afterlife there is still a required reckoning for sins committed on earth, even though the person has sought sincere forgiveness and Christ has granted it completely.

Sin on earth usually has earthly repercussions. Seeking God's forgiveness on earth means you do all you can here on earth to make amends for what you have done. In some cases there is little that can be done, and some there is much.

If you have truly sought forgiveness and done all you can to make amends when possible, there is NOTHING are far as a reckoning after you die.
To assume there is makes null and void the concept of the grace and mercy we are granted through Christ's death on the cross.

The very definition of God's mercy given to those who have sought heartfelt forgiveness NEGATES the concept of Purgatory.

Something else to ponder:
If Purgatory was real, then Jesus would not have been able to say to the sinner on the cross next to him: "TODAY you will be with me in paradise."
After all, even though Jesus forgave him, there are still "the effects of past, forgiven sins" that still must be addressed, no?
Remember, that man had spent his entire life sinning without seeking forgiveness up until that last moment.
The only other option is that he went to paradise, was yanked out later to endure Purgatory, and only then allowed into heaven. That makes no sense whatsoever.


The Primer you linked uses this scripture:
"The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." [2 Sam. 12:13-14; RSV]

It shows right there that the repercussions for earthly sin were dealth with on earth, as I said.
Also, have you really NOT noticed that the way God handled sin, pennance, and a wide variety of other issues was much different in the OT than when Jesus walked the earth, both before and after his crucifixion?


"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

If Purgatory were a correct concept, then this scripture can't possibly be true, because people on earth could not be directly drawn up to Christ and be with him. Again, that is because - as your link puts it - there are "the effects of past, forgiven sins" that still need to be dealt with.

It appears that it is you who is lacking "rudimenatary understanding."

 

[neophyte]

Foreigner,
The concept of an after-death purification from sin and the consequences of sin is also stated in the New Testament in passages such as 1 Corinthians 3:11–15 and Matthew 5:25–26, 12:31–32.
The doctrine of purgatory, or the final purification, has been part of the true faith since before the time of Christ. The Jews already believed it before the coming of the Messiah, as revealed in the Old Testament (2 Macc. 12:41–45) as well as in other pre-Christian Jewish works, such as one which records that Adam will be in mourning "until the day of dispensing punishment in the last years, when I will turn his sorrow into joy" (The Life of Adam and Eve 46–7). Orthodox Jews to this day believe in the final purification, and for eleven months after the death of a loved one, they pray a prayer called the Mourner’s Kaddish for their loved one’s purification.
Jews, Catholics, and the Eastern Orthodox have always historically proclaimed the reality of the final purification. It was not until the Protestant Reformation in the sixteenth century that anyone denied this doctrine. As does the many writings from the early Church Fathers show, purgatory has been part of the Christian faith from the very beginning.

 

[Foreigner]

I hate to break it to you Neophyte, but none of the scriptures you provided HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH PURGATORY.
It appears you haven't even read them, but if you have, read them in context and see for yourself. If you won't read the whole chapter, at least read the two or three verses before and after the ones you posted. You will see for yourself they have NOTHING to do with Purgatory.

As far as Macabees and "making atonement for the dead"....yeah, there is a reason that book isn't actually in the Bible.

I have at least provided scripture that calls Purgatory into question.
Instead of trying to counter with scripture that doesn't support Purgatory in any way, why not address those scriptures I have provided:


"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:43
-- If Purgatory were real then this is not possible for a man who spent his whole life engulfed in sin right up until the moment of his death.
Again, it would have to mean he was allowed into paradise, then sent to Purgatory, then to Heaven. No, I don't think so.


"The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." [2 Sam. 12:13-14; RSV]
-- Punishment/payment for earthly sin that has been forgiven by God is 'collected' on earth.



"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

-- Again, if Purgatory were required than these people would not be able to be caught up in the air with Jesus and be with Him forever.
They would have to leave earth, go through their time in Purgatory, and THEN be with Christ. Again, I don't think so.




.

 

[epostle1]

I hate to break it to you Neophyte, but none of the scriptures you provided HAVE ANYTHING AT ALL TO DO WITH PURGATORY.
It appears you haven't even read them, but if you have, read them in context and see for yourself. If you won't read the whole chapter, at least read the two or three verses before and after the ones you posted. You will see for yourself they have NOTHING to do with Purgatory.

This is just an assertion. A noisy gong, a clanging symbol.

As far as Macabees and "making atonement for the dead"....yeah, there is a reason that book isn't actually in the Bible.

It is in the Bible. Martin Luther threw out 7 books because they did not suit his opinions.

I have at least provided scripture that calls Purgatory into question.
Instead of trying to counter with scripture that doesn't support Purgatory in any way, why not address those scriptures I have provided:


"Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise." - Luke 23:43
-- If Purgatory were real then this is not possible for a man who spent his whole life engulfed in sin right up until the moment of his death.
Again, it would have to mean he was allowed into paradise, then sent to Purgatory, then to Heaven. No, I don't think so.

This was addressed in post #31, in great detail. Scroll up.

"The Lord also has put away your sin; you shall not die. Nevertheless, because by this deed you have utterly scorned the Lord, the child that is born to you shall die." [2 Sam. 12:13-14; RSV]
-- Punishment/payment for earthly sin that has been forgiven by God is 'collected' on earth.

That's true, but it doesn't negate a final purification. David had to endure a great loss for his sin, on earth. But there are many sins we commit where the justice of God is not met on earth, but they are not deserving of eternal damnation. A final purification is needed BECAUSE of the mercy of God. He wants his children to share everlasting life with Him, and there can be no sin in heaven.

"For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever." - 1 Thess. 4:16-17

-- Again, if Purgatory were required than these people would not be able to be caught up in the air with Jesus and be with Him forever.
They would have to leave earth, go through their time in Purgatory, and THEN be with Christ. Again, I don't think so.

That verse does not negate purgatory, it has to do with the Second Coming. Not everyone needs to be purified after death.

I kind of like how many Orthodox Jews view the issue of what happens after we die. Their position is that they simply don't know. Now, we Christians know that God gives us life everlasting. Eternal life is the gift of God to us as believers. How exactly He does that and how He conducts the details of the judgement(s), and so forth, is entirely in His hands. And, as the Jews teach, what ever God has in store is absolutely perfect. It will be for my best interest what ever He does for me. I need not worry about any purgatory or limbo or hell or heaven or a new earth or golden streets or pearly gates or anything. He has promised me life everlasting. I believe Him. None of the rest of this matters, and if I misunderstand about purgatory, so what? If I need such purification, well, he's only doing that for my benefit, right? I believe He did everything needed for my sins on the cross, but even if I'm wrong, so what?

Agreed, Br. James. So what? Your saved either way.