Question: 1 Corinthians 15:3-6

[NotTheRock]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

 

[Lambano]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.

Paul places a heavy emphasis on the Resurrection. In the 1 Corinthians 15 eschatological scheme, when you die, you're dead. But God remembers you, and at the Resurrection, He makes you alive again in a pneumatikos (spirit-driven) body (verse 44).

Note that this is NOT the scheme that when you die, your soul/spirit immediately goes to Heaven or Gehenna and is aware of its surroundings. (Although in the 1 Corinthians scheme, you may not be aware of the passing time between death and resurrection, if you need to reconcile the two schemes. Hence the use of the term "sleep".) Both schemes have Biblical support.

 

[rwb]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

When reading the context Paul is making a case for what becomes of saints that have died in faith. They were witnesses for the bodily resurrection of Christ, yet some seem to doubt that the dead in Christ shall rise again. Death is not the end for those whose hearts and minds are fixed on Jesus before dying. Paul makes the argument, though some have died in faith, just as Christ was resurrected from the dead, so too would all who die in faith.

1 Corinthians 15:12-18 (KJV) Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen: And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain. Yea, and we are found false witnesses of God; because we have testified of God that he raised up Christ: whom he raised not up, if so be that the dead rise not. For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised: And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins. Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.

Paul then goes from speaking of WHAT happens to saints who physically die in faith, to speaking of HOW the dead in Christ, who have eternal/everlasting life through Christ continue to live even though death will physically take us. Because we do not put our hope in this life, but in the life, we shall have when this physical life is over.

We can die with assurance that the life we have in Christ is eternal because Christ is risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that had already died in faith.

1 Corinthians 15:19-20 (KJV) If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

Not only is Christ the first resurrection to physical life from death to never die again, but He is also the firstfruits of the spiritual body that after death ascends to heaven as living soul. This is what Paul means when elsewhere he speaks of being absent from his body of death to be present with the Lord in heaven. Paul understood that the eternal life we receive from Christ when we have been born again, is not physical life in this world, but spiritual life through Christ that shall never die. Because in this life we are at home in our body of flesh, but we are absent from the Lord who is in heaven.

2 Corinthians 5:6 (KJV) Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

2 Corinthians 5:8-9 (KJV) We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Philippians 1:20-24 (KJV) According to my earnest expectation and my hope, that in nothing I shall be ashamed, but that with all boldness, as always, so now also Christ shall be magnified in my body, whether it be by life, or by death. For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

 

[FaithWillDo]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

Dear NotTheRock,
When a person dies, they are dead. Their spirit will then return to God - but without a body, the person has no consciousness and no life. This was even true for Christ when He died on the cross. Christ really did die for the sins of the world. Without His bodily resurrection from the grave, Christ would have remained dead forever.

It is a false teaching that when a person dies, they will have life without being bodily resurrected.

Consider the lie that Satan told Adam and Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they sinned and spiritually died at that point. Their bodies also began the slow process of dying. It is this bodily death that was passed down to all of their offspring. However, the spiritual death that they experienced was not passed down. However, since "all have sinned", every person (like Adam & Eve) will spiritually die when they commit their first sin.

The verse below applies:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

How can we know that what I stated above is true? We can know it because of the life of Christ when He came in the flesh. Christ had the same physical body as Adam & Eve. Christ's body was going to suffer the same penalty of death that the bodies of Adam & Eve did. However, since Christ never sinned, Christ never spiritually died.

This verse applies:

John 19:36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.

The spirit word "bone" (also ribs) represents a person's spirit. Because Christ never sinned, His spirit never died (no bones were broken).

Because Christ never spiritually died, death could not hold Him in the grave. As a result, the Father bodily resurrected Christ after He had been in the grave for three days.

Christ's perfect sacrifice on the cross earned Christ the keys to death and hell (means the grave/unseen place). With these keys, Christ has promised to resurrect all mankind from the grave.

Those who are converted and have been made spiritually alive (the sheep) will receive life in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Those who remain unconverted and spiritually dead (the goats), will receive the judgment of the Law which is death. But because Christ loves all mankind, Christ will have mercy upon the goats prior to any of them perishing. His mercy will come to the goats as the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit which will give them faith and a new birth as a child of God. In other words, each person will be made spiritually alive. The newly born child of God will then be gathered to heaven, leaving the child of the Devil to suffer the penalty of death. This death satisfies justice. This entire process is called conversion.

These scriptures apply to Christ's judgment:

Mat 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; 45 That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun (Christ, the sun of righteousness) to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain (both the Early & Latter Rains) on the just and on the unjust.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Below are a couple of more points on whether or not mankind has life immediately after death:

Consider what Paul said to the Thessalonians (1Thes 4:13-18) who were concerned about their loved ones who had died (fallen asleep). Paul didn't tell them that their loved ones were alive in heaven. Paul told them about the coming bodily resurrection from the grave. It is the coming bodily resurrection that was to comfort them and give them hope about their loved ones. If a person remains alive after death, this would have been the perfect opportunity for Paul to have said so - but Paul didn't say so because it wasn't true.

Also, don't confused the bodily resurrection from the grave with the spiritual resurrection. They are two different things.

The "First Resurrection" mentioned in Rev 20:5-6 is talking about the spiritual resurrection. The spiritual resurrection happens when a person is converted.

When Christ was talking to Martha about the death of Lazarus, Martha was referring to the coming bodily resurrection from the grave but Christ responded to her about the spiritual resurrection.

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth (converted and made spiritually alive) in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

After a person has received both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by the judgment of the Day of the Lord, the person will be converted and will be spiritually resurrected. After this happens, the person will never spiritually die again - even if they sin because they are covered by the blood of Christ.

Note: The Early Rain is a small measure the Holy Spirit. It will not convert the person. The Latter Rain is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. It will give them their new birth as a child of God who can never spiritually die. After the new birth, judgment will follow to remove the "chaff" from within the person. The chaff is all the spiritual things within the person which has made them carnally minded and sinful; a child of the Devil. After this judgment is complete, the person will be made spiritually "perfect" and will now be able to be nourished by the Word of God until they are a matured into a man of full age who is able to discern good and evil (Heb 5:14). This new birth is mankind's salvation and is the end result of why the Father sent His Son into the world:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

"Fallen asleep" in this case means they have died. Meaning they were/are with the Lord (in heaven) and shall ever be.

 

[rwb]

When a person dies, they are dead. Their spirit will then return to God, but without a body, the person has no consciousness and no life. This was even true for Christ when He died on the cross. Christ really did die for the sins of the world. Without His bodily resurrection from the grave, Christ would have remained dead forever.

It is a false teaching that when a person dies, they will have life without being bodily resurrected.

Then why does Christ repeatedly say that whosoever believes in Him shall not/never die? Christ knows the body of flesh & blood of every living creature upon the earth is destined to die. When the Bible tells us the life that we possess in Christ is eternal, even knowing our body of flesh is destined to death, what part of man in Christ is eternal/everlasting?

Even the spirit that gave the physical body of Christ life returned to God when His body breathed it's last. Stephen also believed his spirit would return to God and called upon Him to receive his spirit.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The spirit that returns to God in unbelief has no hope of being with the Lord after death. In death they are regarded as those in darkness, and silence in the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10-12 (KJV) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalm 6:4-5 (KJV) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

Consider the lie that Satan told Adam and Eve:

Gen 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit, they sinned and spiritually died at that point. Their bodies also began the slow process of dying. It is this bodily death that was passed down to all of their offspring. However, the spiritual death that they experienced was not passed down. However, since "all have sinned", every person (like Adam & Eve) will spiritually die when they commit their first sin.

This is not the lie, in this, as you've shown the serpent spoke truth. The lie was they would be as gods, be the masters of their own destiny. Even faced with the curse of death, A&E chose death rather than to submit to obey the voice of God.

Genesis 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

 

[GRACE ambassador]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.

Precious friend, @NotTheRock, please prayerfully and carefully review for God's Bible Answer:

'Confusion' of What is Death...

Hope this helps.

Amen.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Then why does Christ repeatedly say that whosoever believes in Him shall not/never die? Christ knows the body of flesh & blood of every living creature upon the earth is destined to die. When the Bible tells us the life that we possess in Christ is eternal, even knowing our body of flesh is destined to death, what part of man in Christ is eternal/everlasting?

Even the spirit that gave the physical body of Christ life returned to God when His body breathed it's last. Stephen also believed his spirit would return to God and called upon Him to receive his spirit.

Luke 23:46 (KJV) And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Acts 7:59 (KJV) And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Ecclesiastes 12:7 (KJV) Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

1 Corinthians 15:44 (KJV) It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

1 Corinthians 15:46-49 (KJV) Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven. As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly. And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

The spirit that returns to God in unbelief has no hope of being with the Lord after death. In death they are regarded as those in darkness, and silence in the grave.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

Psalm 6:5 (KJV) For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 88:10-12 (KJV) Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah. Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction? Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalm 6:4-5 (KJV) Return, O LORD, deliver my soul: oh save me for thy mercies' sake. For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

Psalm 115:17 (KJV) The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.



This is not the lie, in this, as you've shown the serpent spoke truth. The lie was they would be as gods, be the masters of their own destiny. Even faced with the curse of death, A&E chose death rather than to submit to obey the voice of God.

Genesis 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Dear rwb,
You asked:
Then why does Christ repeatedly say that whosoever believes in Him shall not/never die?

I answered that question in my post. Christ is talking about converted believers who have been spiritually resurrected. Once a person has been "born again", they will never spiritually die again. Their salvation is secure. However, they will still physically die because of Adam's sin - just as Christ physically died because of Adam's sin.

You need to re-read my first post.

You said:
Even the spirit that gave the physical body of Christ life returned to God when His body breathed it's last. Stephen also believed his spirit would return to God and called upon Him to receive his spirit.

Yes, when we physically die, our spirit returns to God - but that does not mean we are alive and have consciousness. Even when unbelievers die, their spirit will likewise return to God. To be alive, a spirit must have a body, whereby it will have consciousness.

Let me ask you this - did you have life & consciousness in heaven before you were born with a physical body?

Since scripture says that your spirit "returns" to heaven when you die, then it stands to reason that you were with God in heaven before you were born.

Do you have any memories of this prior life in heaven?

For me, I do not. The reason why I do not is because I was not yet made into a living soul that had consciousness.

Consider what this scripture says:

Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.

Adam's physical body was formed from the dust of the ground. God then breathed Adam's spirit into it. After Adam's spirit received a body, it became a living soul which had conscious life. Without a body, there is no conscious life. It is because of this reason that the bodily resurrection from the grave is so important, because without it, no one has conscious life.

You said:
The spirit that returns to God in unbelief has no hope of being with the Lord after death. In death they are regarded as those in darkness, and silence in the grave.

The verses you quoted say no such thing. They are talking about all the dead and do not distinguish between the saved dead and the unsaved dead. You are reading into those verses things they do not say.

Read the first verse you quoted again.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 (KJV) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.

And now look at the first portion of the verse that I underlined where it says "For the living know that they shall die".

This is talking about mankind in general while a person is still alive in a physical body. All mankind knows that they are going to die someday.

If this portion of the verse was only talking about saved people, then how do you account for it saying that saved people know that they shall die? Isn't it your contention that saved people don't ever die but that they go on living in heaven when their physical body is destroyed?

You said:
This is not the lie, in this, as you've shown the serpent spoke truth. The lie was they would be as gods, be the masters of their own destiny. Even faced with the curse of death, A&E chose death rather than to submit to obey the voice of God.

Genesis 3:5 (KJV) For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.

Sin is the cause of death - both spiritual death and physical death.

Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

Satan told Eve that if she disobeyed God (which is sin), she would NOT die. This is the lie that Satan told her and it is the same lie that he feeds to his apostate church.

As for being gods who know good and evil, that is the destiny of mankind after a person is converted into a child of God. All of God's children are gods because of who their Father is.

Then, after a person is converted into a child of God, Christ will mature them into a perfect man of full age who can discern between good and evil.

Heb 5:14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

To be a god does not mean that a person is the one supreme being (God the Father) from which everything exists.

Have you not read what Christ stated below?

John 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? 35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken; 36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

Joe

 

[rwb]

Then why does Christ repeatedly say that whosoever believes in Him shall not/never die?

I answered that question in my post. Christ is talking about converted believers who have been spiritually resurrected. Once a person has been "born again", they will never spiritually die again. Their salvation is secure. However, they will still physically die because of Adam's sin - just as Christ physically died because of Adam's sin.

FaithWillDo, I could not answer your entire post due to length it would have required.

Yes, it is our spirit or breath of life that possesses eternal life through Christ from the moment we have been born again. The new birth in Scripture is not called a spiritual resurrection. It's called being born again! Why? Because resurrection to life is for the physically dead, not the spiritually dead. Paul tells us that when we were dead in trespasses and sins, we are made alive (quickened) (spiritually). Being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is not mortal death of the body. In unbelief we are still alive, but without ability to commune with God that we might born again.

Resurrection is how man who has been born again is bodily raised from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Jesus shows tells us we must be born again to know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God. He does NOT say we must be spiritually resurrected. Being born again, according to Christ is not being resurrected to spiritual life from spiritual death. Unlike resurrection that speaks of our mortal body, to be born again is to be born of water (Word/Christ/gospel) and the Spirit of Christ. Because that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born or the Spirit is spirit. Because the Spirit in us will never leave us is how our spirit shall never again die.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is because we are made spiritually alive (quickened) through Christ's Spirit in new birth that we have assurance of the bodily resurrection and shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

Yes, when we physically die, our spirit returns to God - but that does not mean we are alive and have consciousness. Even when unbelievers die, their spirit will likewise return to God. To be alive, a spirit must have a body, whereby it will have consciousness.

Not even death of our body shall separate us from Christ. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, for that reason only our spirit as living soul will ascend to heaven where we will wait for the completion of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and the seventh/last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. As we read the following verses it does not appear the spiritual body in heaven as living souls are silent there.

Romans 8:38-39 (KJV) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 15:2-4 (KJV) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Yes, it is our spirit or breath of life that possesses eternal life through Christ from the moment we have been born again.

Dear rwb,
You said:
Jesus shows tells us we must be born again to know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God. He does NOT say we must be spiritually resurrected.

Yes, being "born again" is one of many ways that describes that a person has been given a new spiritual life.

This new spiritual life is also called being "quickened" (Eph 2:1), harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven (parable of the Wheat and the Tares), transitioning from being a babe to a little child (Mat 18:3), conversion (Acts 15:3), becoming the Bride of Christ (Rev 19:7) and finally, it is also called the First Resurrection (the spiritual resurrection).

Scripture frequently describes the process of conversion using many different words and analogies. I'm sure my list is not complete.

To be converted, Christ will give a person the Early Rain (the small measure of the Holy Spirit. Then, after a time of waiting, Christ will "come again" (His second coming) and give the person the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is be followed by the spiritual fulfillment of the Lord's Supper (same as the Marriage Supper) and then judgment.

For the Elect, their time of judgment is called the Thousand Years Reign since the new born child of God will reign with Christ over the person's own judgment. This is why the Elect will not experience wrath during their time of judgment. However, for the goats in the final age, their judgement will begin BEFORE they are born again. They will experience the wrath of God for a time. But before they perish, they will be born again just as the Elect were in this present age.

Concerning the spiritual resurrection:

Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

In Rev 20:6, the First Resurrection is referring back to the process of conversion that was described in chapter 19 using the marriage analogy. The process begins for an Elect person when they receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain). This causes the bride to be made "ready" (faithful & chaste). With the believer's spiritual blindness then healed, Christ will appear and take His Bride back to heaven for the Marriage of the Lamb. This is the same event that is described in Mat 24:29-31 when the Elect are gathered to heaven. The Marriage of the Lamb then occurs (Christ in you):

Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The Marriage Supper of the Lamb will follow the marriage ceremony (these are all symbolic, they do not actually happen). At the supper, Christ will feed His new Bride bread and New Wine (truth). After the Bride has received her nourishment, judgment will fall on the person.

This time of judgment is called the Thousand Years Reign and the Supper of the Great God. During this judgment, the Bride (the new child of God) will reign with Christ to destroy the spiritual things within the person that has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful (the Man of Sin & Great Harlot). After they are destroyed, the person will be spiritually resurrected/quickened/born again/converted and harvested.

When Christ spoke with Martha, Christ responded to her about the spiritual resurrection and not the bodily resurrection that Martha was referencing.

Christ made this statement to her:

John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth (converted/spiritually resurrected/born again) in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

When a person sins, they will spiritually die. When a spiritually dead person is saved, they have been spiritually resurrected. This entire process of conversion is called the First Resurrection.

You said:
It is because we are made spiritually alive (quickened) (also spiritually resurrected) through Christ's Spirit in new birth that we have assurance of the bodily resurrection and shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.

I agree, but you shouldn't limit the ways Christ describes being quickened. Spiritual resurrection (First Resurrection) is one of those ways.

One other point: All mankind will be bodily resurrected. The spiritually resurrected sheep will receive a glorious incorruptible spiritual body in which they will reign with with Christ in the final age. The spiritually dead goats will receive a mortal body in which they will be judged in the Lake of Fire (a symbol for judgment/the Second Death/it is not literal fire).

Note: The Elect are shown to experience the Second Death in Rev 19:20. And as I said earlier, since the sheep were born again prior to the commencement of that judgment, they will not harmed during it. I have already experienced the Second Death when I was converted in 2005.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

You said:
Not even death of our body shall separate us from Christ.

True. But that only means that after we have died & have been bodily resurrected, our spiritual life in Christ will continue on as before. Death won't separate us from Christ (from our salvation).

If a converted believer doesn't die, why would we need to be bodily resurrected?

Also, if we don't die but continue living in heaven immediately after death, Paul would have gave the Thessalonians church that knowledge so as to comfort them about their loved ones who had died. But Paul did not tell them that because it was not true. Paul told them about the coming bodily resurrection from the grave and said for them to comfort one another with this truth.

You said:
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, for that reason only our spirit as living soul...

The "inheritance" the Elect will receive is to the reign with Christ in the final age in a spiritual body. A body of flesh and blood cannot inherit this reward.

Also, a "living soul" is the term used to describe mankind who is in a physical body. Once a child of God is bodily resurrected, they will become a "quickening spirit".

1Cor 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

You said:
...will ascend to heaven where we will wait for the completion of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven,

This belief is not taught in scripture. Paul referred to this concept about adding to God's Word:

1Cor 4:6 Now, brothers and sisters, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, “Do not go beyond what is written.” Then you will not be puffed up in being a follower of one of us over against the other.

You said:
and the seventh/last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. As we read the following verses it does not appear the spiritual body in heaven as living souls are silent there.

The Seven trumpets of Revelation are teaching about certain aspects of the pathway to salvation that each of the Elect will keep to be saved.

When the seventh angel sounds, the mystery of God (Christ in you) will be finished. In other words, the Elect person will be converted and saved.

The sounding of the seventh trumpet is a reoccurring event in the life of each Elect person. And likewise, the second coming of Christ is a reoccurring event to each of His Elect (is, was and will be coming). When Christ comes, He will bring salvation to them.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those (Elect babes who only have the Early Rain) who are waiting for him.

As for your final comment, John was seeing a "vision". The scenes in heaven were not literally happening. The scenes were symbolic for the purpose of teaching spiritual truths.

For example, the scene with the sealing of the 144,000. That scene represents when each Elect person is converted (sealed with the Holy Spirit) throughout this age. The second half of chapter 7 shows all the Elect standing before the throne and is symbolic of the Elect being gathered to heaven to dwell with Christ. It is a spiritual event that will happen to each of the Elect upon their conversion. It is not a literal group event that will happen in the future.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

FaithWillDo, I could not answer your entire post due to length it would have required.

Yes, it is our spirit or breath of life that possesses eternal life through Christ from the moment we have been born again. The new birth in Scripture is not called a spiritual resurrection. It's called being born again! Why? Because resurrection to life is for the physically dead, not the spiritually dead. Paul tells us that when we were dead in trespasses and sins, we are made alive (quickened) (spiritually). Being spiritually dead in trespasses and sins is not mortal death of the body. In unbelief we are still alive, but without ability to commune with God that we might born again.

Resurrection is how man who has been born again is bodily raised from death to life.

Ephesians 2:1 (KJV) And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:4-6 (KJV) But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;) And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Colossians 2:13 (KJV) And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Jesus shows tells us we must be born again to know (see) and enter the Kingdom of God. He does NOT say we must be spiritually resurrected. Being born again, according to Christ is not being resurrected to spiritual life from spiritual death. Unlike resurrection that speaks of our mortal body, to be born again is to be born of water (Word/Christ/gospel) and the Spirit of Christ. Because that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born or the Spirit is spirit. Because the Spirit in us will never leave us is how our spirit shall never again die.

John 3:3 (KJV) Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5-7 (KJV) Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

It is because we are made spiritually alive (quickened) through Christ's Spirit in new birth that we have assurance of the bodily resurrection and shall be changed from mortal to immortal and corruptible to incorruptible.



Not even death of our body shall separate us from Christ. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God, for that reason only our spirit as living soul will ascend to heaven where we will wait for the completion of the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven, and the seventh/last trumpet sounds that Christ has come again. As we read the following verses it does not appear the spiritual body in heaven as living souls are silent there.

Romans 8:38-39 (KJV) For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Revelation 6:9-11 (KJV) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 15:2-4 (KJV) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God. And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints. Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest.

Revelation 14:1-5 (KJV) And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.

Dear rwb,
FYI, I used to live in Rogers, Arkansas and have made many trips to Branson with my family to visit Silver Dollar City. We only moved to Colorado six years ago.
Joe

 

[rwb]

Yes, being "born again" is one of many ways that describes that a person has been given a new spiritual life.

Dear Joe,

To be born again means we have spiritually entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven. The only way according to Christ to both know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven is through the Spirit of Christ in us, "Ye must be born again".

I agree there are outward signs that a person has been born again, but new birth through Christ's Spirit is our only entrance into the Kingdom of God where we are spiritually alive forever.

This new spiritual life is also called being "quickened" (Eph 2:1), harvested into the Kingdom of Heaven (parable of the Wheat and the Tares), transitioning from being a babe to a little child (Mat 18:3), conversion (Acts 15:3), becoming the Bride of Christ (Rev 19:7) and finally, it is also called the First Resurrection (the spiritual resurrection).

Quickened is not the same thing as being physically resurrected to life again. Only our living spirit that does not have eternal life is made alive (quickened) that we might know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven spiritually, not physically. The quickening of our spirit is not the "first resurrection". Resurrection is only for the physically dead. The first resurrection, or the first to be physically resurrected to never die again is Jesus Christ.

When our spirit has been born again through the Holy Spirit in us, we have part in the resurrected life of Christ, the first resurrection.

Romans 6:4 (KJV) Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

Colossians 2:12 (KJV) Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

As you already know only those who have part in the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. (Rev 20:6)

For the Elect, their time of judgment is called the Thousand Years Reign since the new born child of God will reign with Christ over the person's own judgment. This is why the Elect will not experience wrath during their time of judgment. However, for the goats in the final age, their judgement will begin BEFORE they are born again. They will experience the wrath of God for a time. But before they perish, they will be born again just as the Elect were in this present age.

All of mankind is in this age of grace being judged according to the Gospel. Those who hear and by grace through faith believe are judged worthy, and being born again spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God in heaven. Those who hear and remain in unbelief are judged already and condemned forever IF they remain in unbelief. (Jo 3:18)

This time of judgement during time is symbolically written "a thousand years". This represents the entire New Covenant age when the Church is tasked with going unto all the nations of the earth proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God, so that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete.

Although in our lifetime believers and unbelievers alike must endure many trials and tribulations in this world, the wrath of God is reserved only for those who their whole lives remain in unbelief.

I know a common view is believing there will be another one thousand years of time given this earth when Christ returns, but this view forces much confusion and contradictions into the Word of God, and therefore it is not biblical.

Desiring to keep the replies a little easier to digest, I'll stop here for now, until I have a chance to myself digest all that you have said.

 

[rwb]

Dear rwb,
FYI, I used to live in Rogers, Arkansas and have made many trips to Branson with my family to visit Silver Dollar City. We only moved to Colorado six years ago.
Joe

Oh yes, we love the Ozarks! And Silver Dollar City, especially at Christmas is truly magnificent!

 

[rwb]

Yes, being "born again" is one of many ways that describes that a person has been given a new spiritual life.

Joe,

How would you define the living as being dead in sins?

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

How would you define the living as being dead in sins?

Dear rwb,
Here is the verse:

Col 2:13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, (this is before they were converted) God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins,

I will present three points concerning this verse.

1). The phrase "when you were dead in your sins" means that they were spiritually dead because of the sins that they themselves committed. They were still physically alive but their body was already dying before they ever sinned. It was dying because death was passed down from Adam.

This verse applies to Adam's sin and its effect on mankind:

Rom 5:15 But shall not the act of favour be as the offence? For if by the offence of one (Adam) the many have died, much rather has the grace of God, and the free gift in grace, which is by the one man Jesus Christ, abounded unto the many.

It would be easy to say that Adam's sin passed down both spiritual death and physical death except for one problem with that understanding. Christ was descended from Adam and He received a dying body from birth because of Adam's sin. However, because Christ Himself never sinned, He never spiritually died. Because Christ was spiritual alive when He tasted death, death could not hold Him in the grave. For this reason, His Father bodily resurrected Him after three days in the grave. For this reason, a person's spiritual death is not passed down from Adam. Their spiritual death came about by their own sins.

Here is a statement by Christ that is interesting:

Luke 9:59 And he said unto another, Follow me. But he said, Lord, suffer me first to go and bury my father. 60 Jesus said unto him, Let the dead (the spiritually dead) bury their dead (the physically dead): but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Since all mankind is spiritually dead while in their dying body of flesh, in order for a person to be saved, Christ will spiritually resurrect them before they physically die. Then, after they have physically died, they will be bodily resurrected to life because they are found to be spiritually alive upon their bodily resurrection. In other words, they are found be in the Lamb's Book of Life because they are spiritually alive when they stand before the White Throne of Christ. Because they are spiritually alive, nothing can separate them from Christ and their salvation - not even death.

2). The phrase "uncircumcision of your flesh" means that the person has not been circumcised in their heart. When Christ circumcises a person's heart, it means that they have been converted/spiritually resurrected. I did not think of this analogy when I made my list in my earlier post to you - there are so many.

3). The phrase "God made you alive with Christ" means that they have been made spiritually alive with Christ. In other words, they have been spiritually resurrected and born again (and all the other terms that represent the same thing).

I will take a look at your first post of this morning and will reply to it in a little while (the Lord willing).

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear Joe,

To be born again means we have spiritually entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven.

Dear rwb,
My response is going to come in two separate posts. I'm sorry but there was so much I wanted to present.

You said:
To be born again means we have spiritually entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven. The only way according to Christ to both know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven is through the Spirit of Christ in us, "Ye must be born again".

I agree there are outward signs that a person has been born again, but new birth through Christ's Spirit is our only entrance into the Kingdom of God where we are spiritually alive forever.

I completely agree with every word of your statement.

However (and this is a BIG "however"), the spiritual work that Christ must do within a person to convert them is a "great mystery" (Eph 5:32) and is not understood by the apostate churches of this world.

Note: Eph 5:32 is why I named my teaching website "The Great Mystery of Christ and His Church". A link is provided below my member name.

For a person to be converted and enter the Kingdom of Heaven, Christ will come to them at a time of the Father's choosing and do His spiritual work within them. The person has no say in the matter as to when Christ will come to them but scripture assures mankind that He will come to every person someday. He will come to a "few" in this age (the Elect) and He will come to the balance of mankind in the final age.

To begin the salvation process of an Elect person, Christ will come to them "suddenly" and give them a small measure of the Holy Spirit. In the farming analogy, this event is called the Early Rain.

Christ will give the person the Early Rain without their asking for it and without their permission to give it to them. He gives it to them because He loves them and because of what this verse below says:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

After a person has a small measure of the Holy Spirit, they will make a confession of faith after they hear the Word of God presented. It happens 100% of the time. It is at this point that the person will enter the church and will become a babe in Christ who can only draw milk (Christ and Him crucified, 1Cor 2:2). At this point, the Elect babe is "called to be a saint" and they are not a saint yet. This is true because every new babe in Christ remains spiritually blind, carnally minded and unconverted. A babe can understand and receive the physical work that Christ did under the Old Covenant but the spiritual work that Christ does under the New Covenant will be veiled from their understanding. In this sense, Christ remains veiled from them and hidden by the clouds. The veil is removed after the babe receives the Latter Rain.

Because of the babe's weak spiritual condition, the babe is easy prey for Satan. After Paul's death, Satan has devoured all the babes in the church. Nothing has changed even up to today. The pathway to salvation for every Elect babe includes a time of great tribulation that they spend in the apostate church. No one can avoid it.

After the babe's appointed time in the apostate church has been satisfied, Christ will return to them and pour out the Latter Rain (the baptism). With the baptism of the Holy Spirit, the person's spiritual blindness will be healed and their carnal mind will be changed into the mind of Christ. In this new condition, the person will be able to eat the true bread from heaven and drink the New Wine. This is the spiritual fulfillment of the Lord's Supper and the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. The person will then be born again (spiritually resurrected) as a child of God and will have entered the Kingdom of Heaven. This event is symbolized by Christ gathering the new child of God to heaven (Mat 24:29-31 & Rev 11:11-12). The person no longer dwells on the "earth" with the other unconverted babes. FYI, unbelievers dwell in the sea - the lowest level.

After a new child of God has been gathered to heaven, Christ will begin their judgment to remove the "chaff" from within them. There are many other terms used for the chaff, but essentially, the term "chaff" represents all the spiritual things within the person that has caused them to be carnally minded and sinful. After the Elect person's judgment is complete, they will be converted and will have experienced the First Resurrection.

Here are two examples of the pathway to salvation:

1). Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. This is when Paul became a babe in Christ. His three days in Damascus represented when he was made "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45); a man of sin. After His three days were complete, Christ returned (typed by Ananias) and poured out the Latter Rain. This is when the scales fell from Paul eyes. Paul was then told to "eat meat" so that he would be spiritually strengthened. The judgment portion of Paul's conversion testimony was not presented in scripture (here a little, and there a little applies).

2). The Apostles received the Early Rain at some point before they became disciples of Christ. Since this was before "Paul's departing" (Acts 20:29-31), the apostles never fell away and become apostate. They remained faithful while they waited for the Lord to return with the Latter Rain which they received on the Day of Pentecost. This was their day of salvation.

You said:
Quickened is not the same thing as being physically resurrected to life again.

I agree.

You said:
Only our living spirit that does not have eternal life is made alive (quickened) that we might know and enter the Kingdom of God in heaven spiritually, not physically.

In our unconverted condition, mankind's spirit is dead and that is why it must be "quickened" (made alive) for the person to be saved. After a person is quickened, they will enter the Kingdom of Heaven which is within them:

Luke 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: 21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Christ is the Kingdom of Heaven. When the Kingdom of Heaven comes within us, Christ is in us. Also, heaven is not a location as most understand it to be. Heaven is a spirit word that means the place where God dwells and that place is within each person who has the Holy Spirit. The person then becomes God's temple and is said to dwell in heaven with Him after they are converted.

You said:
The quickening of our spirit is not the "first resurrection". Resurrection is only for the physically dead. The first resurrection, or the first to be physically resurrected to never die again is Jesus Christ.

I can't agree with your comments. They are not supported by scripture. If a person has not been spiritually resurrected (quickened), they will not be found in the Lamb's book of Life because they remain spiritually dead.

I have discussed this issue in my other posts so I will not say much here. There are many terms for being "quickened". The First Resurrection (the spiritual resurrection) is just one of those many terms.

CONTINUED ON THE NEXT POST...

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear Joe,
To be born again means we have spiritually entered into the Kingdom of God in heaven.

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
As you already know only those who have part in the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. (Rev 20:6)

Yes, I have presented the Second Death in my other posts but I'm not sure you understand it yet.

Everyone will experience the Second Death which occurs in the Lake of Fire. The Elect experience the Second Death when they are judged during their time of conversion. But because they are born as a child of God PRIOR to their judgment commencing, they will not experience wrath (not be harmed during it). But the person they used to be (a child of the Devil/man of sin) will be harmed & destroyed.

To show that the child of God is not harmed, scripture shows that the man of sin (also called the chaff) is removed from within the person and cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed (Mat 24:37-41 and Rev 19:11-21). The child of the Devil/man of sin is who experiences the Second Death.

In the final age, since the goats are spiritually dead and sinful, they are the children of the Devil. Since their time of judgment commences at that time, they themselves will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will experience wrath for a time. But prior to their destruction, Christ will converted them into His children and then gather them out of the Lake of Fire. And just like the Elect, the child of the Devil will be remain and be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. This death will complete the person's process of conversion.

One other point: The process of conversion (Early Rain & Latter Rain and judgment) is a spiritual process and it happens within the person.

You said:
All of mankind is in this age of grace being judged according to the Gospel.

Only the Elect are being judged in this present age and this happens during their time of conversion. The balance of mankind will be judged upon their bodily resurrection that begins the final age.

You said:
Those who hear and by grace through faith believe are judged worthy, and being born again spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God in heaven. Those who hear and remain in unbelief are judged already and condemned forever IF they remain in unbelief. (Jo 3:18)

Those who hear and have faith are the children of God. The ones who cannot hear and remain in unbelief are the children of the Devil. Because the children of the Devil have sinned and cannot be saved, they are "condemned already". Because they cannot be saved, it is necessary for Christ to make the person into a new creation. This is also called being born again. This is conversion.

This verse applies:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel (child of the Devil) that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel (child of God), as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The verse below applies to the judgment portion of conversion and is how the old marred vessel is destroyed:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind/children of the Devil): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind because they are condemned already).

You said:
This time of judgement during time is symbolically written "a thousand years". This represents the entire New Covenant age when the Church is tasked with going unto all the nations of the earth proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God, so that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete.

The term "Thousand Years" is a spirit word that means the time of judgment when the Elect reign with Christ. It does not mean a literal amount of time as "man's wisdom" understands it (1Cor 2:13).

The Thousand Years also happens TWO times:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good (all who are judged are the children of the Devil): do not all go to one place? (Yes, the Lake of Fire for destruction)

The first time it happens is when the Elect (as a child of God/Bride) reign with Christ over their own judgment. The second time is when they reign with Christ over the balance of mankind in the final age.

You said:
Although in our lifetime believers and unbelievers alike must endure many trials and tribulations in this world, the wrath of God is reserved only for those who their whole lives remain in unbelief.

The wrath of God abides on all who have sinned (Rom 1:18). Since all mankind has sinned and has become the children of the Devil, all mankind will be judged and destroyed. Because of this truth and because Christ loves mankind, Christ will convert each child of the Devil into a child of God before anyone perishes. Only the child of God is without sin and they will be the only one who will live into eternity when the ages come to an end. At that time, mankind will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I, too, am trying to keep my posts shorter but I did not succeed with this one. Please take some time to pray about all the things that I have presented - and remember, God is the giver of good gifts to those who ask and having the ability to "see" is one of those good gifts.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Joe

 

[ScottA]

CONTINUED FROM THE PREVIOUS POST...

You said:
As you already know only those who have part in the first resurrection have no fear of the second death. (Rev 20:6)

Yes, I have presented the Second Death in my other posts but I'm not sure you understand it yet.

Everyone will experience the Second Death which occurs in the Lake of Fire. The Elect experience the Second Death when they are judged during their time of conversion. But because they are born as a child of God PRIOR to their judgment commencing, they will not experience wrath (not be harmed during it). But the person they used to be (a child of the Devil/man of sin) will be harmed & destroyed.

To show that the child of God is not harmed, scripture shows that the man of sin (also called the chaff) is removed from within the person and cast into the Lake of Fire to be destroyed (Mat 24:37-41 and Rev 19:11-21). The child of the Devil/man of sin is who experiences the Second Death.

In the final age, since the goats are spiritually dead and sinful, they are the children of the Devil. Since their time of judgment commences at that time, they themselves will be cast into the Lake of Fire where they will experience wrath for a time. But prior to their destruction, Christ will converted them into His children and then gather them out of the Lake of Fire. And just like the Elect, the child of the Devil will be remain and be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. This death will complete the person's process of conversion.

One other point: The process of conversion (Early Rain & Latter Rain and judgment) is a spiritual process and it happens within the person.

You said:
All of mankind is in this age of grace being judged according to the Gospel.

Only the Elect are being judged in this present age and this happens during their time of conversion. The balance of mankind will be judged upon their bodily resurrection that begins the final age.

You said:
Those who hear and by grace through faith believe are judged worthy, and being born again spiritually enter into the Kingdom of God in heaven. Those who hear and remain in unbelief are judged already and condemned forever IF they remain in unbelief. (Jo 3:18)

Those who hear and have faith are the children of God. The ones who cannot hear and remain in unbelief are the children of the Devil. Because the children of the Devil have sinned and cannot be saved, they are "condemned already". Because they cannot be saved, it is necessary for Christ to make the person into a new creation. This is also called being born again. This is conversion.

This verse applies:

Jer 18:4 And the vessel (child of the Devil) that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel (child of God), as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The verse below applies to the judgment portion of conversion and is how the old marred vessel is destroyed:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind/children of the Devil): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind because they are condemned already).

You said:
This time of judgement during time is symbolically written "a thousand years". This represents the entire New Covenant age when the Church is tasked with going unto all the nations of the earth proclaiming the gospel of the Kingdom of God, so that the spiritual Kingdom of God in heaven will be complete.

The term "Thousand Years" is a spirit word that means the time of judgment when the Elect reign with Christ. It does not mean a literal amount of time as "man's wisdom" understands it (1Cor 2:13).

The Thousand Years also happens TWO times:

Ecc 6:6 Yea, though he live a thousand years twice told, yet hath he seen no good (all who are judged are the children of the Devil): do not all go to one place? (Yes, the Lake of Fire for destruction)

The first time it happens is when the Elect (as a child of God/Bride) reign with Christ over their own judgment. The second time is when they reign with Christ over the balance of mankind in the final age.

You said:
Although in our lifetime believers and unbelievers alike must endure many trials and tribulations in this world, the wrath of God is reserved only for those who their whole lives remain in unbelief.

The wrath of God abides on all who have sinned (Rom 1:18). Since all mankind has sinned and has become the children of the Devil, all mankind will be judged and destroyed. Because of this truth and because Christ loves mankind, Christ will convert each child of the Devil into a child of God before anyone perishes. Only the child of God is without sin and they will be the only one who will live into eternity when the ages come to an end. At that time, mankind will cease to exist but the Kingdom of Heaven will be that much fuller.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

I, too, am trying to keep my posts shorter but I did not succeed with this one. Please take some time to pray about all the things that I have presented - and remember, God is the giver of good gifts to those who ask and having the ability to "see" is one of those good gifts.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Joe

Joe,

What you have described is a people (all people) that did need exposed or saved. But to the contrary, we know that God does nothing without purpose, which purpose was those who did need exposed and destroyed who were among us.

Darkness is not converted, but destroyed.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

What you have described is a people (all people) that did need exposed or saved. But to the contrary, we know that God does nothing without purpose, which purpose was those who did need exposed and destroyed who were among us.

Dear ScottA,
I would respond to your comments but I really don't understand what you are saying. Maybe you could restate your post for me?
Joe

 

[Behold]

though some have fallen asleep."

Those are the "dead in Christ".
Dead Christians.