Question: 1 Corinthians 15:3-6

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
I would respond to your comments but I really don't understand what you are saying. Maybe you could restate your post for me?
Joe

You apparently were stating a case for universal salvation (for all people). But such a position would mean there was actually nothing to be saved, and no one in need of being exposed in the flesh (no "man of sin" to be revealed). But we do know that such a man of sin was indeed to be revealed, who being evil and of the darkness was not merely to be brought to light and exposed, but to be destroyed. As Light does not convert darkness, it destroys it by elimination. God is not a converting fire, but "a consuming fire."

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe apparently was stating a case for universal salvation (for all people). But such a position would mean there was actually nothing to be saved, and no one in need of being exposed in the flesh (no "man of sin" to be revealed). But we do know that such a man of sin was indeed to be revealed, who being evil and of the darkness was not merely to be brought to light and exposed, but to be destroyed. As Light does not convert darkness, it destroys it by elimination. God is not a converting fire, but "a consuming fire."

Dear ScottA,
Yes, during the conversion process, the man of sin/child of the Devil is destroyed. But before he is destroyed, the person will be born again as a child of God. Scripture calls this process "conversion".

Conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by judgment. The Early and Latter Rains give the person their new birth. However, the spiritual things that make up the child of the Devil still remain within the person. It is those things that Christ will remove and destroy. If Christ did not destroy them, a spiritual war would continue to be fought between the child of God and the child of the Devil within the person.

Here is how Christ describes the judgment portion of an Elect person going through the conversion process.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came (judgment from the Holy Spirit), and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (the spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (the Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (the marred spirit that has a carnal nature/also called the Great Harlot), and the other left (the person's new spirit that has a divine spiritual nature).

Those who are "taken" are cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

The verse below also describes the judgment portion of conversion:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind/children of the Devil): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind because they are condemned already).

Also, Christ was sent by the Father to save all mankind. To say that He will fail is blasphemy. Most people who deny that Jesus is the Savior of the world do so because they believe that mankind has a free will ability that is either too stubborn or too evil for Christ to overcome. However, scripture clearly teaches that mankind does not have a free will ability. What scripture teaches is that mankind has a "will" and that "will" is no problem for Christ turning it any which way He wants:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I just recently discussed most of these truths with you on the forum and you were not able to receive them. I see no sense in starting another discussion with you since it will only end the same way.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
Yes, during the conversion process, the man of sin/child of the Devil is destroyed. But before he is destroyed, the person will be born again as a child of God. Scripture calls this process "conversion".

Conversion requires Christ to give a person both the Early and Latter Rains, followed by judgment. The Early and Latter Rains give the person their new birth. However, the spiritual things that make up the child of the Devil still remain within the person. It is those things that Christ will remove and destroy. If Christ did not destroy them, a spiritual war would continue to be fought between the child of God and the child of the Devil within the person.

Here is how Christ describes the judgment portion of an Elect person going through the conversion process.

Mat 24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39 And knew not until the flood came (judgment from the Holy Spirit), and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 40 Then shall two be in the field (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (the spirit of anti-Christ), and the other left (the Holy Spirit). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill (contained in one person); the one shall be taken (the marred spirit that has a carnal nature/also called the Great Harlot), and the other left (the person's new spirit that has a divine spiritual nature).

Those who are "taken" are cast into the Lake of Fire for destruction.

The verse below also describes the judgment portion of conversion:

Isa 66:16 For by fire (judgment) and by his sword (Word of God) will the LORD plead with all flesh (all mankind/children of the Devil): and the slain of the LORD shall be many (all mankind because they are condemned already).

Also, Christ was sent by the Father to save all mankind. To say that He will fail is blasphemy. Most people who deny that Jesus is the Savior of the world do so because they believe that mankind has a free will ability that is either too stubborn or too evil for Christ to overcome. However, scripture clearly teaches that mankind does not have a free will ability. What scripture teaches is that mankind has a "will" and that "will" is no problem for Christ turning it any which way He wants:

Prov 16:1 The preparations of the heart in man, and the answer of the tongue, is from the LORD.

Prov 16:9 A man's heart deviseth his way: but the LORD directeth his steps.

Prov 20:24 Man's goings are of the LORD; how can a man then understand his own way?

Prov 21:1 The king's heart is in the hand of the LORD, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.

I just recently discussed most of these truths with you on the forum and you were not able to receive them. I see no sense in starting another discussion with you since it will only end the same way.

Joe

One can only arrive at such a doctrine by mixing the Son of God with the son of perdition (Satan), whom is not saved by the Son but lost. Just "as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous", so too are all in the son of perdition (Satan) destroyed: "a third."

The logic that you have expressed is understandable, but limited. Certainly all that you listed is true--"except", the exception that is also defined in the scriptures. If you will notice those passages which you quoted are immediately followed by the parable of ten virgins, five of whom Jesus will not save; and also by the Son of Man judging the nations, of whom are some who will go away into everlasting punishment. A third do perish for eternity. Not as a failure by Christ, but an exception written and defined as a third of all. Satan is destroyed, and all who are his.

 

[FaithWillDo]

One can only arrive at such a doctrine by mixing the Son of God with the son of perdition (Satan), whom is not saved by the Son but lost. Just "as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous", so too are all in the son of perdition (Satan) destroyed: "a third."

The logic that you have expressed is understandable, but limited. Certainly all that you listed is true--"except", the exception that is also defined in the scriptures. If you will notice those passages which you quoted are immediately followed by the parable of ten virgins, five of whom Jesus will not save; and also by the Son of Man judging the nation, of whom are some will go away into everlasting punishment. A third do perish for eternity. Not as a failure by Christ, but an exception written and defined as a third of all. Satan is destroyed, and all who are his.

Dear ScottA,
You are not seeing the true Christ. The true Christ is all powerful, merciful and patient. There isn't any scripture that says Christ will abandon the foolish virgins (the apostate church) upon their bodily resurrection. It is true that the foolish virgins will not be found in the Lamb's book of Life, nor will they be heirs of Abraham who will receive the promised rewards, but they will still be saved along with the unbelievers before Christ finishes His work and the ages come to an end.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (judgment in the Lake of Fire)

There is no point in presenting more and more scriptures to you since you cannot understand and receive what they teach. Your only hope of being an heir of Abraham is to pray for understanding. Then, if you are one of the Elect, Christ will respond to your prayer and pour out the Latter Rain (the baptism). Only then will Christ remove His veil so that you can truly know Him.

Prov 2:1 My son (the Elect), if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 YES, IF YOU CALL OUT FOR INSIGHT AND RAISE YOU VOICE FOR UNDERSTANDING, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Paul's conversion also presented this truth:

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias (a type for Christ); and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: FOR, BEHOLD, HE PRAYETH, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight (spiritual understanding).

I can't help you unless the Lord helps you first. If He does, I would be willing spend all the time necessary to help you see the true Christ.

Joe

 

[Grailhunter]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

NotTheRock….congrats on being knowledgeable of the scriptures.

But for some questions it may not give definitive answers. Some things we may not be able to comprehend. The spirit world, Heaven, Hell, and your question that alludes to the state we are in after our physical body dies.

In your opening post you refer to those asleep. Our spirit or soul still exists forever. But still the state of the soul is not well explained. Is it in the grave? Some would suggest Sheol. The Bible does not shutdown Sheol or even define it well. But still are we conscience or unconscious? What does a soul or spirit look like?

Then the question; are souls waiting for the day of resurrection of the body and Judgment Day? Some believe that we go immediately to Heaven or Hell. If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal that seems the case….It also suggests that a person in Hellfire can talk to those in Heaven. Most Theologians will not put a stamp of literal on the story of the rich man and Lazarus. More or less a moralistic story.

And then there is scenario of Rapture which again is not well explained. And those that resurrected after Christ’s death…what happened to them? And then you have the descending of the city of the New Jerusalem?

So in the end we cannot answer every question about the “after life” But I will go out on a limb and tell you my opinion. Conscience or unconscious we all go to a level of Sheol. I believe the term “asleep” alludes to this. Asleep being a soft term. At this point the next event is resurrection and Judgment Day. In my Fathers house are many mansions. It would be good to know more about Heaven.

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
You are not seeing the true Christ. The true Christ is all powerful, merciful and patient. There isn't any scripture that says Christ will abandon the foolish virgins (the apostate church) upon their bodily resurrection. It is true that the foolish virgins will not be found in the Lamb's book of Life, nor will they be heirs of Abraham who will receive the promised rewards, but they will still be saved along with the unbelievers before Christ finishes His work and the ages come to an end.

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. (judgment in the Lake of Fire)

There is no point in presenting more and more scriptures to you since you cannot understand and receive what they teach. Your only hope of being an heir of Abraham is to pray for understanding. Then, if you are one of the Elect, Christ will respond to your prayer and pour out the Latter Rain (the baptism). Only then will Christ remove His veil so that you can truly know Him.

Prov 2:1 My son (the Elect), if you receive my words and treasure up my commandments with you, 2 making your ear attentive to wisdom and inclining your heart to understanding; 3 YES, IF YOU CALL OUT FOR INSIGHT AND RAISE YOU VOICE FOR UNDERSTANDING, 4 if you seek it like silver and search for it as for hidden treasures, 5 then you will understand the fear of the Lord and find the knowledge of God.

Jer 33:3 ‘Call to Me, and I will answer you, and show you great and mighty things, which you do not know.’

Paul's conversion also presented this truth:

Acts 9:10 And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias (a type for Christ); and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and enquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: FOR, BEHOLD, HE PRAYETH, 12 And hath seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight (spiritual understanding).

I can't help you unless the Lord helps you first. If He does, I would be willing spend all the time necessary to help you see the true Christ.

Joe

Your doctrinal onion has too many layers, evident in your first paragraph. "It is finished."

You contradict and do not reconcile all scripture. And you accuse me in your ignorance, even presuming to preach to me whom you do not know as one sent by God to correct the likes of you. As for Paul--he gave witness of me, and you do not know me.

Even so, as you have offered, I offer also to you. Let God be praised!

 

[ScottA]

NotTheRock….congrats on being knowledgeable of the scriptures.

But for some questions it may not give definitive answers. Some things we may not be able to comprehend. The spirit world, Heaven, Hell, and your question that alludes to the state we are in after our physical body dies.

In your opening post you refer to those asleep. Our spirit or soul still exists forever. But still the state of the soul is not well explained. Is it in the grave? Some would suggest Sheol. The Bible does not shutdown Sheol or even define it well. But still are we conscience or unconscious? What does a soul or spirit look like?

Then the question; are souls waiting for the day of resurrection of the body and Judgment Day? Some believe that we go immediately to Heaven or Hell. If the story of the rich man and Lazarus is literal that seems the case….It also suggests that a person in Hellfire can talk to those in Heaven. Most Theologians will not put a stamp of literal on the story of the rich man and Lazarus. More or less a moralistic story.

And then there is scenario of Rapture which again is not well explained. And those that resurrected after Christ’s death…what happened to them? And then you have the descending of the city of the New Jerusalem?

So in the end we cannot answer every question about the “after life” But I will go out on a limb and tell you my opinion. Conscience or unconscious we all go to a level of Sheol. I believe the term “asleep” alludes to this. Asleep being a soft term. At this point the next event is resurrection and Judgment Day. In my Fathers house are many mansions. It would be good to know more about Heaven.

It is good of you to pose questions, and good also to announce your opinion as opinion. May the Lord bless you!

There are, however, answers to all of those questions--"all truth" was and is the promise of Christ.

• "Sleep" is the state of all who are born into this world. From which we are then awaken, either in part as born again but remaining in the world where things remain under a measure of darkness until the last, or in full when we pass fully from the flesh. "Sheol" or "hell" are terms used in scripture to elude to the potential and fear of never awakening. This life has moments like that, but more importantly, this life is us on the brink of total destruction.
• The soul or spirit looks like the wind to those of the flesh, but the spirit sees both the things made manifest of flesh or the elements, and also the things of the Spirit (otherwise unseen). The spirit to the Spirit is that image made manifest. As man is made in the image of God, so is the spirit also visible to the Spirit.
• There is no "waiting" except in the flesh. We wait for Christ to knock on the door, and when He does and we answer and let Him in, we then wait for the passing of the flesh.
• As for what is "literal", nothing in this world is literal per se--that is literal according to literal as God defines literal rather than as men do. All that is made manifest--all the world, including mankind, even Christ--is "image" given to form--unto death.
• The "Rapture" simply refers to the rapturous event mostly occurring in heaven when one is born [again] of the spirit of God. It might just as well be called a "rush."
• As for the resurrection, each person is raised up "but each one in his own order" or time in history. "Some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt." With the exception being those born [again] of the spirit of God while remaining in this world in the flesh, which is given in part as the firstfruits of the Spirit for the comparatively quick study of the gospel unto the Gentiles (unlike Israel who received "here a little there a little" for their generations lead up to the coming of Messiah).
• The "afterlife"--life after this--is heaven to those who rise to everlasting life, and hell or everlasting contempt to those who perish.

 

[Grailhunter]

It is good of you to pose questions, and good also to announce your opinion as opinion. May the Lord bless you!

There are, however, answers to all of those questions--"all truth" was and is the promise of Christ.

• "Sleep" is the state of all who are born into this world. From which we are then awaken, either in part as born again but remaining in the world where things remain under a measure of darkness until the last, or in full when we pass fully from the flesh. "Sheol" or "hell" are terms used in scripture to elude to the potential and fear of never awakening. This life has moments like that, but more importantly, this life is us on the brink of total destruction.
• The soul or spirit looks like the wind to those of the flesh, but the spirit sees both the things made manifest of flesh or the elements, and also the things of the Spirit (otherwise unseen). The spirit to the Spirit is that image made manifest. As man is made in the image of God, so is the spirit also visible to the Spirit.
• There is no "waiting" except in the flesh. We wait for Christ to knock on the door, and when He does and we answer and let Him in, we then wait for the passing of the flesh.
• As for what is "literal", nothing in this world is literal per se--that is literal according to literal as God defines literal rather than as men do. All that is made manifest--all the world, including mankind, even Christ--is "image" given to form--unto death.
• The "Rapture" simply refers to the rapturous event mostly occurring in heaven when one is born [again] of the spirit of God. It might just as well be called a "rush."
• As for the resurrection, each person is raised up "but each one in his own order" or time in history. "Some to everlasting life, and some to everlasting contempt." With the exception being those born [again] of the spirit of God while remaining in this world in the flesh, which is given in part as the firstfruits of the Spirit for the comparatively quick study of the gospel unto the Gentiles (unlike Israel who received "here a little there a little" for their generations lead up to the coming of Messiah).
• The "afterlife"--life after this--is heaven to those who rise to everlasting life, and hell or everlasting contempt to those who perish.

I did not say that there were not differing opinions out there. And opinions are OK. But I was referring to scriptural specifics ….details.

And the word Hell cannot be in the actual scriptures. No Greek or Hebrew equivalent. Which is one of the reasons for the confusion in the New Testament….they used descriptions and examples and alternative words like Hades which is not a firey place of torment. Hades is a Greek god that presides over a realm of the same name.

Hell….Anglo Saxon….Old English in the 8th century AD.
Hell really exists as a place of eternal fiery torment but it was actually new information in the New Testament. Yahweh did not threaten the Jews with fiery place of torment, nor define the devil.
Which is why the Jews did and don’t believe in a devil or Hell even to this day.

 

[bdavidc]

When Paul said that some of Jesus's followers were "asleep", it sounds like their spirits weren't in Heaven with God. Am I interpreting this correctly? If so, why weren't they alive in Heaven? Jesus said those that trust in him would never die.


1 Corinthians 15:3-6 esv
"For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. 6 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep."

Paul was using the biblical figure of speech for physical death when he said that some had “fallen asleep.” He did not mean they had died spiritually or gone into some coma of the soul. The body “sleeps,” but the soul of the believer is right away with the Lord.

Paul stated it so plainly in 2 Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” There is no in-between gap or holding pattern for the spirit. At death, the believer’s spirit goes immediately to be with Christ, but the body lies in the grave until the resurrection.

“Sleep” is the metaphor for what death looks like from the human, earthly viewpoint. The body is asleep and awaits the resurrection. Jesus Himself used the same word in John 11: 11, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.” Then, to take away misunderstanding, He clarified the matter plainly, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14).

So those “asleep” in 1 Corinthians 15 are dead physically, but alive spiritually with the Lord. At the resurrection, their bodies will be raised and glorified to be reunited with their spirits (1 Thessalonians 4:14–17).

Yes, Jesus was telling the truth when He said, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (John 11:26). The believer’s body dies, but their spirit never does. Death for the Christian is a doorway, not a termination.

 

[ScottA]

I did not say that there were not differing opinions out there. And opinions are OK. But I was referring to scriptural specifics ….details.

And the word Hell cannot be in the actual scriptures. No Greek or Hebrew equivalent. Which is one of the reasons for the confusion in the New Testament….they used descriptions and examples and alternative words like Hades which is not a firey place of torment. Hades is a Greek god that presides over a realm of the same name.

Hell….Anglo Saxon….Old English in the 8th century AD.
Hell really exists as a place of eternal fiery torment but it was actually new information in the New Testament. Yahweh did not threaten the Jews with fiery place of torment, nor define the devil.
Which is why the Jews did and don’t believe in a devil or Hell even to this day.

That is all very interesting, but that is not the point--not greatly important. For instance, even "sheol" is not in the most popular King James Version of the Bible, and is only a word suggesting what was to come regarding death. Other translations and other words also only suggest what was to come regarding death. Such has been the view "through a glass, darkly"...or "dimly", in other words or translations. Whatever.

The point rather, is the true of what was unknown in times past, was to be "finished" with the promise and coming of "all truth." This is that time.

 

[NotTheRock]

Paul was using the biblical figure of speech for physical death when he said that some had “fallen asleep.” He did not mean they had died spiritually or gone into some coma of the soul. The body “sleeps,” but the soul of the believer is right away with the Lord.

Paul stated it so plainly in 2 Corinthians 5:8, “We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.” There is no in-between gap or holding pattern for the spirit. At death, the believer’s spirit goes immediately to be with Christ, but the body lies in the grave until the resurrection.

“Sleep” is the metaphor for what death looks like from the human, earthly viewpoint. The body is asleep and awaits the resurrection. Jesus Himself used the same word in John 11: 11, “Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.” Then, to take away misunderstanding, He clarified the matter plainly, “Lazarus is dead” (John 11:14).

So those “asleep” in 1 Corinthians 15 are dead physically, but alive spiritually with the Lord. At the resurrection, their bodies will be raised and glorified to be reunited with their spirits (1 Thessalonians 4:14–17).

Yes, Jesus was telling the truth when He said, “Whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die” (John 11:26). The believer’s body dies, but their spirit never does. Death for the Christian is a doorway, not a termination.

Great explanation. Thank you.