question about crosses

[Job]

"treated reverently" can only mean idolatry to the Christian Taliban.

Only when preceded by the phrase: "...designated for divine worship."

 

[epostle1]

Of course I do. I have pictures of my dad, all my siblings. I have hundreds of pictures from when I was in the military....

And no. I don't need those pictures to remind me of who they are. I don't stare into them hoping to open some line of communication.

My images and the images of the catholic church are not the same.
.

But they are essentially the same, that is what you refuse to understand.

 

[epostle1]

Only when preceded by the phrase: "...designated for divine worship."

Wrong. Divine worship refers to the Mass or public liturgy. Provide the context. Keep annoying me with your anti-Catholic lies and you will join the other Christian Taliban in my ignorasium.

 

[Job]

Keep annoying me with your anti-Catholic lies

Those anti-catholic lies are coming straight from your catholic canon.

 

[Job]

you will join the other Taliban in my ignorasium.

Please don't assume that would bother me.

Just saying...

 

[bbyrd009]

Only when preceded by the phrase: "...designated for divine worship."

lol--zing!

 

[Job]

But they are essentially the same, that is what you refuse to understand.

Explain.

 

[bbyrd009]

Wrong. Divine worship refers to the Mass or public liturgy. Provide the context. Keep annoying me with your anti-Catholic lies and you will join the other Christian Taliban in my ignorasium.

yur about to get judged here Job look out lol

 

[bbyrd009]

he cannot possibly be annoying you, see; only you might be annoying him. We're about to see the violence inherent in the system here, wait for it...

 

[epostle1]

.

The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly pagan practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.

Now you are insulting God who commanded the Jews to make images for the Temple.
...........
The LORD said to Moses . . . you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. . . . There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel” (Exodus 25:1, 18-20, 22; cf. 26:1).

The Temple contained a vast number of statues and images including angels, trees, flowers, oxen, and lions (cf. 1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36). Solomon’s decision to include these religious images came from the gift of wisdom God had blessed him with (cf. 1 Kings 3:1-28). And far from being displeased by such images, “the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually” (1 Kings 9:3).

Obviously, God would not have blessed Solomon and “hallowed” his temple filled with statues and images if He did not approve of them — further proof that images can be good when used to order our minds toward God and heavenly realities.

But you are far from reality, bbyrd009, bye.

 

[bbyrd009]

Now you are insulting God who commanded the Jews to make images for the Temple.

c'mon kepha, angels are not worshipped, by Christians at least. Well, they are not supposed to be anyway--what with "Christians" praying to Christ or Mary, and confessing in dark closets, who knows

 

[epostle1]

Explain.

You have photos of your family that
1) are images
2) serve as reminders
3) you don't don't stare into them hoping to open some line of communication.

An image of Jesus or saint
1) are images
2) serve as reminders
3) we don't don't stare into them hoping to open some line of communication which is a false Protestant invention.

My images and the images of the catholic church are not the same.

Compare the two above lists. The ESSENCE is the same. You possess idols according to your unbiblical definition of idols. Better burn them or get your scriptures in order.
.

 

[Job]

.
Now you are insulting God who commanded the Jews to make images for the Temple.
...........
The LORD said to Moses . . . you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be. . . . There I will meet with you, and from above the mercy seat, from between the two cherubim that are upon the ark of the testimony, I will speak with you of all that I will give you in commandment for the people of Israel” (Exodus 25:1, 18-20, 22; cf. 26:1).

The Temple contained a vast number of statues and images including angels, trees, flowers, oxen, and lions (cf. 1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36). Solomon’s decision to include these religious images came from the gift of wisdom God had blessed him with (cf. 1 Kings 3:1-28). And far from being displeased by such images, “the LORD said unto him, I have heard thy prayer and thy supplication that thou hast made before me: I have hallowed this house, which thou hast built, to put my name there for ever; and mine eyes and mine heart shall be there perpetually” (1 Kings 9:3).

Obviously, God would not have blessed Solomon and “hallowed” his temple filled with statues and images if He did not approve of them — further proof that images can be good when used to order our minds toward God and heavenly realities.

But you are far from reality, bbyrd009, bye.

How many of these images in Solomon's temple were the object of worship?

 

[Job]

Compare the two above lists. The ESSENCE is the same.

None of my images bare the names of deceased saints. My images aren't called Jesus or Mary. The people in my images are real. I didn't have to make up their physical appearance. You can't say that. My images are in a box collecting dust. Your images are set up and displayed worldwide and everyone knows what they're used for.

So the essence isn't the same.
m

 

[epostle1]

Those anti-catholic lies are coming straight from your catholic canon.

I don't reply to multiple topic rants. And your multiple catechism quotes are out of context, and misrepresented not to mention a total failure to understand certain terminologies. Even to explain one paragraph to a hostile anti-Catholic is a waste of time because it all falls on deaf ears. Applying two words "divine worship" to images is a gross manipulation of the text and a lie. What you are really doing is defending the false iconoclasm of John Calvin.
You cannot make the distinction between the holy and the profane. According to your criteria, God instructed idols be made in Exodus 25:1, 1 Kings 6:23-35, 7:25, 36, for the Temple. You are in opposition to scripture.

 

[epostle1]

How many of these images in Solomon's temple were the object of worship?

None. Images in a Catholic church are not objects of worship either, but your blind prejudice doesn't permit you to see otherwise. Radical Protestant iconoclasm is a false man made tradition that began in the 16th century, mostly from Calvin's errors.
Do Catholics Worship Statues? | Catholic Answers

 

[epostle1]

None of my images bare the names of deceased saints. My images aren't called Jesus or Mary. The people in my images are real. I didn't have to make up their physical appearance. You can't say that. My images are in a box collecting dust. Your images are set up and displayed worldwide and everyone knows what they're used for.

So the essence isn't the same.
m

Yes it is. All images are idols according to you. Either burn those "graven image" photos or get real with Scripture. And no, not "everyone" is an ignorant anti-Catholic making up straw man fallacies.
Veneration of Images, Iconoclasm, & Idolatry (An Exposition)

 

[epostle1]

Idolatry: Catechism of the Catholic Church

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

footnotes:
44 Mt 6:24.
45 Cf. Rev 13-14.
46 Cf. Gal 5:20; Eph 5:5.
47 Origen, Contra Celsum 2,40 PG 11,861.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment

You still don't get it, do you Job.

 

[Job]

Idolatry: Catechism of the Catholic Church

2112 The first commandment condemns polytheism. It requires man neither to believe in, nor to venerate, other divinities than the one true God. Scripture constantly recalls this rejection of "idols, [of] silver and gold, the work of men's hands. They have mouths, but do not speak; eyes, but do not see." These empty idols make their worshippers empty: "Those who make them are like them; so are all who trust in them."42God, however, is the "living God"43 who gives life and intervenes in history.

2113 Idolatry not only refers to false pagan worship. It remains a constant temptation to faith. Idolatry consists in divinizing what is not God. Man commits idolatry whenever he honors and reveres a creature in place of God, whether this be gods or demons (for example, satanism), power, pleasure, race, ancestors, the state, money, etc. Jesus says, "You cannot serve God and mammon."44 Many martyrs died for not adoring "the Beast"45 refusing even to simulate such worship. Idolatry rejects the unique Lordship of God; it is therefore incompatible with communion with God.46

2114 Human life finds its unity in the adoration of the one God. The commandment to worship the Lord alone integrates man and saves him from an endless disintegration. Idolatry is a perversion of man's innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who "transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God."47

footnotes:
44 Mt 6:24.
45 Cf. Rev 13-14.
46 Cf. Gal 5:20; Eph 5:5.
47 Origen, Contra Celsum 2,40 PG 11,861.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - The first commandment

Still don't get it, do you Job.

You missed these.

2131 Basing itself on the mystery of the incarnate Word, the seventh ecumenical council at Nicaea (787) justified against the iconoclasts the veneration of icons - of Christ, but also of the Mother of God, the angels, and all the saints. By becoming incarnate, the Son of God introduced a new "economy" of images.

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. The movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71
-------------------------
If ones thoughts, prayers, whatever are flowing through these images and then onward to God, then these images are being used as mediators. There's no denying it.

 

[Job]

Still don't get it, do you Job.

This is what I get.

Deuteronomy 4
15 “Take careful heed to yourselves, for you saw no form when the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the midst of the fire,
16 lest you act corruptly and make for yourselves a carved image in the form of any figure: the likeness of male or female,


Those things the Pope has everyone staring at are idols. If it's an act of corruption to make these images, just imagine the corruption involved in having one.

That's what I get.
h