question about crosses

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epostle1

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Job has a good reply in post #38. I'm not familiar with the *alleged falling away*. When I say the *god you worship*, I'm admitting I don't worship the same god as the Catholic Church, that's all. And it looks like the Second Council of Nicaea does command (require) the veneration of images.


quote-i-believe-in-god-not-in-a-catholic-god-there-is-no-catholic-god-there-is-god-and-i-believe-in-pope-francis-388028.jpg

 

tabletalk

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I did ask for a quote. I gave you the canons of that council, you gave no quote from the said council, yet you still want to stick to a false accusation. Is it that you believe anti-Catholics over and above original documents? Again, veneration of images cannot be commanded or required because they are personal devotions and impossible to quantify. The whole notion of veneration of images being commanded or required is absurd. It's not much different from admiring the "image" of the artist on the cover of your favorite Christian CD. If your pastor commands or requires you to play certain CD's he would be overstepping his authority.

"The holy, great and universal synod
, by the grace of God and by order of our pious and Christ-loving emperor and empress, Constantine and his mother Irene, assembled for the second time in the famous metropolis of the Nicaeans in the province of the Bithynians, in the holy church of God named after Wisdom, following the tradition of the catholic church, has decreed what is here laid down."

I agree that "The whole notion of veneration of images being commanded or required is absurd."
The Council decreed. The Council Anathematized. It sounds pretty serious to this Protestant, but I did not find the word "command" in the proceedings, so you seem to be right.
 

Job

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No. God gave us creative abilities and a brain, He expects us to use them. The true image of Jesus is found on the face of our neighbor, especially the poor.
Then why do all your statues and paintings resemble the same person? Shouldn't all the faces be different?

And why do you choose to worship through a false image of Jesus? I don't get it. What is the significance of that image? What is the significance of all the false images that are venerated?

Isn't it idolatry to show reverence to a false image?


Just asking...
.
 

epostle1

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"The holy, great and universal synod, by the grace of God and by order of our pious and Christ-loving emperor and empress, Constantine and his mother Irene, assembled for the second time in the famous metropolis of the Nicaeans in the province of the Bithynians, in the holy church of God named after Wisdom, following the tradition of the catholic church, has decreed what is here laid down."

I agree that "The whole notion of veneration of images being commanded or required is absurd."
The Council decreed. The Council Anathematized. It sounds pretty serious to this Protestant, but I did not find the word "command" in the proceedings, so you seem to be right.
Then why do all your statues and paintings resemble the same person? Shouldn't all the faces be different?

And why do you choose to worship through a false image of Jesus? I don't get it. What is the significance of that image? What is the significance of all the false images that are venerated?

Isn't it idolatry to show reverence to a false image?

Just asking...
.
Holy images, paintings, statues, are never worshiped. They serve as devotional aids. Are nativity scenes, found in millions of Protestant homes at Christmas time, idolatry? Does anybody worship the 3-4 inch figures? Christians in the ancient catacombs of the 1sr 3 centuries did all kinds of artwork. You keep forgetting almost no one could read, so they used Bible based visuals. I'm afraid your iconoclasm has been drilled deep into your brain. Any physical object that is worshiped is an idol. A statue of Jesus is not worshiped, it is a visual aid to help bring our minds to Jesus, not to the statue.


images_q_tbn_ANd9_Gc_TWDY0_IDOKZ8_T22d_JSQWt78_Vn0o_MGz.jpg

Here is a good Protestant "idol" of John Calvin who despised all statues. :confused:
But a statue of Jesus with children is idolatry???​
 

epostle1

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The Eucharist of the Catholic Church: Aren't the bread and wine physical objects which are worshipped?
You are changing the topic because Protestant iconoclasm is not based on reality but mostly the influence of John Calvin. Religious statuary, properly used, is a thoroughly biblical practice.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

It looks like Protestant iconoclasts should correct God.

David gave Solomon the plan
"for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

It looks like Protestant iconoclasts should correct God.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes,
"On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as many Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying,
‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane,

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.



 

Job

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Holy images, paintings, statues, are never worshiped.
Here is something I found while browsing through the Code of Canon Law.

Can. 1171 Sacred objects, which are designated for divine worship by dedication or blessing, are to be treated reverently and are not to be employed for profane or inappropriate use even if they are owned by private persons.


There's more if you would like to see for yourself. Follow the link.

PART II: THE OTHER ACTS OF DIVINE WORSHIP

TITLE I: SACRAMENTALS (Cann. 1166 - 1172)
Code of Canon Law - IntraText
 

Job

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A statue of Jesus is not worshiped, it is a visual aid to help bring our minds to Jesus, not to the statue.
Here's how the catholics bring their minds to Christ. They use these images as mediators between themselves and God. Read it. In the words of the catholic church. (highlights are mine)

2132 The Christian veneration of images is not contrary to the first commandment which proscribes idols. Indeed, "the honor rendered to an image passes to its prototype," and "whoever venerates an image venerates the person portrayed in it."70 The honor paid to sacred images is a "respectful veneration," not the adoration due to God alone:

Religious worship is not directed to images in themselves, considered as mere things, but under their distinctive aspect as images leading us on to God incarnate. the movement toward the image does not terminate in it as image, but tends toward that whose image it is.71



This was copied from Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText
.
 

bbyrd009

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You are changing the topic because Protestant iconoclasm is not based on reality but mostly the influence of John Calvin. Religious statuary, properly used, is a thoroughly biblical practice.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: "And you shall make two cherubim of gold [i.e., two gold statues of angels]; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be" (Ex. 25:18–20).

It looks like Protestant iconoclasts should correct God.

David gave Solomon the plan
"for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan" (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was "by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all," included statues of angels.

It looks like Protestant iconoclasts should correct God.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes,
"On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim."

During a plague of serpents sent to punish the Israelites during the exodus, God told Moses to "make [a statue of] a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and every one who is bitten, when he sees it shall live. So Moses made a bronze serpent, and set it on a pole; and if a serpent bit any man, he would look at the bronze serpent and live" (Num. 21:8–9).

One had to look at the bronze statue of the serpent to be healed, which shows that statues could be used ritually, not merely as religious decorations.

Catholics use statues, paintings, and other artistic devices to recall the person or thing depicted. Just as it helps to remember one’s mother by looking at her photograph, so it helps to recall the example of the saints by looking at pictures of them. Catholics also use statues as teaching tools. In the early Church they were especially useful for the instruction of the illiterate. Many Protestants have pictures of Jesus and other Bible pictures in Sunday school for teaching children. Catholics also use statues to commemorate certain people and events, much as many Protestant churches have three-dimensional nativity scenes at Christmas.

If one measured Protestants by the same rule, then by using these "graven" images, they would be practicing the "idolatry" of which they accuse Catholics. But there’s no idolatry going on in these situations. God forbids the worship of images as gods, but he doesn’t ban the making of images. If he had, religious movies, videos, photographs, paintings, and all similar things would be banned. But, as the case of the bronze serpent shows, God does not even forbid the ritual use of religious images.

It is when people begin to adore a statue as a god that the Lord becomes angry. Thus when people did start to worship the bronze serpent as a snake-god (whom they named "Nehushtan"), the righteous king Hezekiah had it destroyed (2 Kgs. 18:4).

The bottom line is, when God made the New Covenant with us, he did reveal himself under a visible form in Jesus Christ. For that reason, we can make representations of God in Christ. Even Protestants use all sorts of religious images: Pictures of Jesus and other biblical persons appear on a myriad of Bibles, picture books, T-shirts, jewelry, bumper stickers, greeting cards, compact discs, and manger scenes. Christ is even symbolically represented through the Icthus or "fish emblem."

Common sense tells us that, since God has revealed himself in various images, most especially in the incarnate Jesus Christ, it’s not wrong for us to use images of these forms to deepen our knowledge and love of God. That’s why God revealed himself in these visible forms, and that’s why statues and pictures are made of them.

Since the days of the apostles, the Catholic Church has consistently condemned the sin of idolatry. The early Church Fathers warn against this sin, and Church councils also dealt with the issue.

The Second Council of Nicaea (787), which dealt largely with the question of the religious use of images and icons, said, "[T]he one who redeemed us from the darkness of idolatrous insanity, Christ our God, when he took for his bride his holy Catholic Church . . . promised he would guard her and assured his holy disciples saying,
‘I am with you every day until the consummation of this age.’ . . . To this gracious offer some people paid no attention; being hoodwinked by the treacherous foe they abandoned the true line of reasoning . . . and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane, asserting that the icons of our Lord and of his saints were no different from the wooden images of satanic idols."

and they failed to distinguish the holy from the profane,

The Catechism of the Council of Trent (1566) taught that idolatry is committed "by worshipping idols and images as God, or believing that they possess any divinity or virtue entitling them to our worship, by praying to, or reposing confidence in them" (374).

"Idolatry is a perversion of man’s innate religious sense. An idolater is someone who ‘transfers his indestructible notion of God to anything other than God’" (CCC 2114).

The Church absolutely recognizes and condemns the sin of idolatry. What anti-Catholics fail to recognize is the distinction between thinking a piece of stone or plaster is a god and desiring to visually remember Christ and the saints in heaven by making statues in their honor. The making and use of religious statues is a thoroughly biblical practice. Anyone who says otherwise doesn’t know his Bible.


prolly gonna lose some punch, coming from a guy dressed like a fascist holding a gun who calls some guy "father" though. Whaddya think?
 
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Helen

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As I mentioned earlier...I am not big into crosses...but..when the anti-christians want the removed, band, or whatever...suddenly I am "interested"

This is what Franklin Graham said today!

quote....
< "Even though thousands upon thousands of people have been blessed by a cross here for over 75 years, because four people complained (two of whom we’re told have since moved to Canada), a federal judge has ruled that this 34-foot tall cross on public property in Pensacola, FL, has to come down. We have organizations like the American Humanist Association and the Freedom From Religion Foundation to thank for ridiculous changes like this. The Bible tells us that the cross is an offense. That's because it represents the saving power of the Lord Jesus Christ who rose from the grave after three days to redeem us from the penalty of our sins. I agree with former Arkansas Governor Mike Huckabee—they could donate that spot and the cross there to an independent organization to keep it up. Or—Christians and churches in Pensacola could multiply that cross by 100x across that city and others. Even better yet, we could multiply the message of the cross by sharing the Gospel with everyone we know “for it is the power of God unto salvation." >

The great push in our our countries to 'bring down' everything Christian is on..it has been subtly done for years...but now it is becoming more openly aggressive.


 
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epostle1

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Here is something I found while browsing through the Code of Canon Law.
Can. 1171 Sacred objects, which are designated for divine worship by dedication or blessing, are to be treated reverently and are not to be employed for profane or inappropriate use even if they are owned by private persons.
There's more if you would like to see for yourself. Follow the link.
PART II: THE OTHER ACTS OF DIVINE WORSHIP
TITLE I: SACRAMENTALS (Cann. 1166 - 1172)
Code of Canon Law - IntraText
"treated reverently" can only mean idolatry to the Christian Taliban.
 

Job

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That's not what I asked, and you know it. It's a simple straightforward question. Do you have a photo of your mother?
Of course I do. I have pictures of my dad, all my siblings. I have hundreds of pictures from when I was in the military....

And no. I don't need those pictures to remind me of who they are. I don't stare into them hoping to open some line of communication.

My images and the images of the catholic church are not the same.
.