Questions for those who believe in modern day prophecies

[David H.]

Thanks so much for joining in David H. I really appreciate your reply (as well as others).

Thanks Scoot for your comment, You are right to be leary, and you should see this very gift (discerning of the Spirits) is what is missing... it is like having tongues without the interpretation of tongues, there is no edification for the Body of Christ, only the individual speaking them.

I Have no doubt many of these so called Prophets are seeing things, But are they from the LORD? Or another source? You asked what standard should we use to discern? The Word of God is first and foremost. Secondly, are they gainsaying? This can vary from monetary gain (Balaam's error) to self aggrandizement and exaltation (Pride) to desire for fame and notoriety. A true Prophet will refuse all of these things. Thirdly, is there conviction from the Holy Ghost there or smooth words that please and foster complacency?

A true Prophet will not point you to themselves but to Christ and the cross, a true prophet will not speak smooth words, but hard words. A true prophet is Hated by many, and understood and received by a few. Often times their words are speaking to the heart of People and will not come to be seen as truthful till sometime later. The true prophet edifies by conviction and repentance, not by building up the whitwashed tombs in the lives of People. (Ego and self esteem).

Paul equated Prophecy as the highest of the Gifts of the Spirit, so we do need these words, now more than ever. For a famine is coming of hearing the word of God. (Amos 8:11)

Just because there is failure, does not mean the gifts have ceased, Only they have been drowned out by the Hoopla of Christianism. We are witnessing a revival of Christianism right now, but there is also a "quiet" revival of true Christianity occurring, in which the Outpouring of the gift of discerning the spirits is occurring.... they will have their eyes opened the rest will not, Hence the strong delusion.

 

[Hidden In Him]

All believers have Spiritual discernment, not all are given the gift of discerning Spirits. All believers have the ability to speak in tongues, not all have the gift of tongues. The Lack of discernment in this final church age is apparent, with many in the charismatic circles falling into harlotry and being swayed by seducing spirits such as the kundalinni spirits which are manifesting in them and being mistaken for the holy Spirit. Enlightenment being received from astral projection and spirit guides (New age) being mistaken for teaching from the Holy Ghost, Divination from demonic sources being mistaken for prophecy from the Holy Ghost.... There is a total lack of discerning of the spirits found in this Postmodern church age.

That's an interesting take, and welcome to Christianity Board.

I would certainly hold the above as necessitating the gift of discerning of spirits, only as of yet I view most false prophecy as originating more in the minds of men than through demonic inspiration.

But if you have interest, I'd be curious to exchange thoughts on who you regard to be true prophets in the earth at the current time. I can send you a private conversation if you are interested.

God bless, and welcome again to the Forum.
HiH

 

[Bobby Jo]

... you should see this very gift (discerning of the Spirits) is what is missing...

... as is MANY of the Ministries in the church, because the HIRELING circumvents the operation of the body of Christ.

1 Cor. 14:26 What then, brethren? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification.​

Or so it would seem, week after week, after week, after week, after week, -- well you get the idea ...
Bobby Jo

 

[Keraz]

I would certainly hold the above as necessitating the gift of discerning of spirits, only as of yet I view most false prophecy as originating more in the minds of men than through demonic inspiration.

This I agree with! But most of it is from demonic inspiration.
We have no prophets now....Psalm 74:9-11

The entire Prophetic Word in our Bibles, covers all that we need to know about Gods Plans for our future. And after the next prophesies event; the Lords Day of fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal, the eyes of the blinded and the ears of the deafened, will be opened. Isaiah 35:4-5, Isaiah 29:18-24

 

[Hidden In Him]

This I agree with! But most of it is from demonic inspiration.
We have no prophets now....Psalm 74:9-11

Hi, Keraz.

About this psalm, it was written as the Babylonian captivity was underway, so the "enemies" spoken of in v.10 were not spiritual there but literal.

But I do think spirits are behind much of the false doctrines the church adopted, which feeds into men subscribing to false interpretations of prophecy and dreams as well, so there is certainly a connection.

That was an interesting quote you provided. I appreciate it.
- H

 

[Bobby Jo]

... only as of yet I view most false prophecy as originating more in the minds of men than through demonic inspiration. ...

... But most of it is from demonic inspiration. ...

I would argue along with HIH, in that because "we see through a glass darkly", some prophetic events may be expected to be fulfilled in a certain TIME-FRAME; certain LOCALITY; certain FASHION; etc. And so the "Teacher" makes assumptions based upon his/her best rendering of the Scripture, -- which may not occur as anticipated.

And this "Teacher's" perspective can be skewed by a myriad of aspects including FALSE TEACHINGS FROM THE CHURCH, typical of the FALSE: "seven-year-tribulation"; "pre-/mid-/post- tribulation" doctrine; "RCC assignment of the a/c"; etc. Or the "Teacher" may simply not be adequately familiar with the Original Text, and misconstrues the meaning of the passage.

We ALL make mistakes in ALL facets of life, and I don't think a spelling error is due to "DEMONIC INSPIRATION".

Bobby Jo

 

[Scoot]

Thank you so much David again for your reply... I appreciate your replies, and on each one - there's something that rings with concerns I have had for so long that have been ignored locally. ie:

I Have no doubt many of these so called Prophets are seeing things, But are they from the LORD? Or another source?

This is a question I have asked so often. The people that I have been with I believe are genuine and desire to serve God. But when they claim they've heard from God, and then it later turns out to be obviously false, or there are numerous people hearing the opposite from God, no one I've associated directly seems to be willing to consider that there may be other spirits involved. Each is certain they're hearing from God, or at the very worse made a 'fleshly' mistake - nothing about being influenced by other spirits as though it's not possible. No consideration seems to be given to 1 John.

I'm wanting to be very careful here not to 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. All this has given me serious promptings to reconsider all in this area because I know what I've seen needs to be seriously questioned. This has me currently in an position where I'm considering what ceassationists believe and why - but also open too that gifts may have continued but what we're seeing now is the enemy counterfeiting so much that it's casing people to doubt that there's any real genuine out there.

I really appreciate all that have responded - because I've had far more people here willing to discuss these matters than I find in person who just want to shut me up from asking questions.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The questions I have for those who believe the gift of prophecy still exists today are as follows:

1) Do you believe that a modern day prophet should be set to the same standards as biblical prophets, or do you believe that prophecy has changed - and if so can you give biblical references as to why you believe this?

The way you frame the question is a bit suspect. The OT standard for a true Prophet was that he didn't make mistakes. This was never meant to indicate the Prophet was sinless. It had to do with his prophecy accurately representing God's word in a particular matter--not that the Prophet is flawless on all matters.

For example, I believe there have been genuine prophets or seers who have accurately represented God's word insofar that what they saw and presented was accurate insofar as they could do so. Their theology could be bad, and they may not fully comprehend the totality of the matter. But if the thing they predicted actually came to pass, and could be seen to be God's word, they were to be viewed as legitimate Prophets, despite their human flaws.

2) Do you believe that a true prophet speaks correctly all the time, or only most of the time, or only some of the time - and there is room for little or much error and false prophecies with a true ministry? (And again, if so - could you please show scripture that supports this or give reason why you believe)?

The Scriptures portray the biblical Prophets as flawed men--just like the rest of us. Elijah was a flawed man, just as we all are. Jeremiah complained. Other Prophets were corrected. Their accurate representation of God's word was seen in their prediction of God's judgment against Israel's sins in a time when false prophets defended Israel and ignored their sins. The judgments came to pass, just as predicted. It did not mean the Prophets were perfect.

3) Do you discern between a true prophet of God, and a false prophet of today? How do you know what to believe and what not? What standard do you use for discerning?

It is the same standard today. The world denies its sins, and much of Christianity, in a time of laxity, tends to ignore the dangers of sin, as well, with an unjustified emphasis on "grace." True prophets see past this false leniency and unbiblical "tolerance," to declare God's continuing judgments against sin. They see judgments coming, and they do come, as ordered.

4) What role do you believe the church has (if any) in pointing out false prophets and at what point should this be done - or should it never be done because we risk speaking out against The Holy Spirit if we're wrong with our conviction?

I think Christians should speak their mind because we've been called to have the mind of Christ and to speak God's truth into all matters. I myself have questioned supposed "Prophets," due to their human flaws. The flaws I saw were real, and perhaps had to be exposed. But the legitimacy of their prophecies also had to be acknowledged. It has taken me awhile, but I've begun to see them as legitimate Prophets.

and finally
5) If true prophets today are permitted to get it wrong on numerous occasions - what do you see the benefit of modern day prophecies to be? (If we can't be sure whether or not a prophecy is correct, and we can't rely on it to be true)?

The role of prophecy is to encourage our endurance in a time when we don't appear to be "blessed" by God. When we falsely think the world does not deserve judgment we are "thrown off our horses" when things go south in our society.

We need to hear the Prophets, and to recognize that we are becoming too lax, and compromising the Kingdom of God. We need to focus in on the true attitude of God towards sin in our society, and to stop compromising with paganism.

That is the purpose of the Prophets, to make known God's attitude towards sin, so that we, as God's People, continue to serve God in truth and in spirit. We need to be true witnesses to God, our Father, in this world, so as to draw all those who seek Him.

I've had issues with David Wilkerson, who was a Pretribulationist and who believed America was "Harlot Babylon." I disagree with both those positions. And I've had issues with the "Kansas City Prophets" because I heard there were moral issues with some of them, and heard they sometimes they "got it wrong." Some of the Prophets, like Sadhu Sundar and Neville Johnson, have spoken of extravagant visions that make it very hard to take seriously.

And yet, over time, it appears that despite their personal "issues," many of their prophecies had a focus born of the word of God, and inspired both faith and real fulfillments. And so, I've come to not look to them so much as to listen to what God may be saying through them. It isn't that hard to recognize when a prophecy given is a prophecy focused on exposing sin and a prophecy that actually comes to pass.

All of these Prophets have given prophecies that condemn sin and yet offer a path through God's judgments. And their predictions often have amazingly accurate fulfillments.

 

[marksman]

Hi all,

A little while ago I created a thread Genuine Questions for Cessationist's

I'd like to start by saying thanks to all those who are not cessationists that respected my request and allowed me to hear out what cessationists believe and the cessationists that answered the questions I had without it getting into a debate.

I would like to again kindly ask the same now, but in reverse.

This time, I'm chasing answers from continuists who believe in modern day prophecy.

So if I could politely ask those who are cessationists or don't believe in prophecy to not reply on continuists behalf or debate as I did in the other thread - with the exceptions:

- To reply if you have genuine questions or follow up questions like me for those who believe to answer, or

- To post a response with a link to another thread that might be relevant (if posting here would mean starting a debate instead of hearing continuists answer questions), so we can keep this one on track as a Q&A).

The questions I have for those who believe the gift of prophecy still exists today are as follows:

1) Do you believe that a modern day prophet should be set to the same standards as biblical prophets, or do you believe that prophecy has changed - and if so can you give biblical references as to why you believe this?


2) Do you believe that a true prophet speaks correctly all the time, or only most of the time, or only some of the time - and there is room for little or much error and false prophecies with a true ministry? (And again, if so - could you please show scripture that supports this or give reason why you believe)?


3) Do you discern between a true prophet of God, and a false prophet of today? How do you know what to believe and what not? What standard do you use for discerning?


4) What role do you believe the church has (if any) in pointing out false prophets and at what point should this be done - or should it never be done because we risk speaking out against The Holy Spirit if we're wrong with our conviction?


and finally


5) If true prophets today are permitted to get it wrong on numerous occasions - what do you see the benefit of modern day prophecies to be? (If we can't be sure whether or not a prophecy is correct, and we can't rely on it to be true)?


(Again, like the other thread - this is not intended to spark debate - but I'm genuinely interested to hear from those who believe that modern day prophecies still exist and where they stand on these questions).

My questions come from years of hearing failed prophecies in our own church and seeing people dodge and deflect these questions more than address them - and I guess more recently after considering the thread Cindy Jacob prophesies Revival over Australia and New Zealand. .

(Having found out that it appears she's prophesied in the past and gotten things wrong just like the church I have been brought up with - and it seems to be ignored from my perspective... I'm trying to gain a genuine understanding of why people continue to listen to her, and why I should consider what she's saying).

At present I am unsure about modern day prophecies, and I have an open mind on both continuists vs cessationists and am working my way through this - but regardless I currently hold a view that a true prophet will prophecy correctly continually and am trying to gain and understanding of why so many people I respect think differently to this.

Thanks so much!

Scoot.

I don't know if you can do this subject justice unless you understand the role of the prophet in the OT and the role in the church today. You will, of course, know that several of the OT books are written by prophets and these prophets speak into whole nations, not just personal prophecies which is the norm today. The OT prophet often spoke of tribulation that the Jews would suffer, going into captivity and what would happen if they didn't change their ways. And of course, as we know what they prophesied came to pass.

Then there was a 400-year silence, the period between the Old and New Testaments. If there were prophecies they were not recorded.

Jesus spoke of prophets as people that were not without honor except in their own country. So if a prophet wanted credibility he had to go somewhere other than where he was born. It did not state why the prophet did not have credibility in his own country but for some reason, that was the case.

When it comes to the NTC, there is a very clear indication that prophets were part of the life of the church. In Ephesians 4 v 11 it says that Christ, amongst the five different ministries he gave the church were prophets. I am of the opinion if he gave some to be prophets, then there should be prophets in the church for the building up of the saints and the work of ministry.

I would suggest that leaders tend to avoid this aspect of church life and spend most of the time building up themselves and their own ministry as that is a stepping stone to the bigger more important churches. Unless you have been successful in a smaller church you are not likely to be invited onto the leadership team of a larger church.

In the NTC a prophet generally speaking was an itinerant ministry, one that often went with that of the apostle. Both were involved in preaching the gospel and starting and establishing churches. Don't forget that their concept of church is quite different from ours. Theirs was the church at Corinth indicating that there was only one church in Corinth and if the church came together it meant every believer in Corinth.

Today we do not talk about the church in Alabama. We talk about this church or that church, this group or that group, this mission, or that mission. In other words, a fragmented church that has some or little contact with each other. I am quite sure if Paul rose from the dead and saw the church today he would be quite aghast at the division that there is.

The problem today is that the ministry of a prophet is not recognized in most cases so when someone is espoused as a prophet all they get usually is criticism because they are not perfect and they are under judgment if their prophecies are called into question. We seemed very loathed to admit that they do get prophecies right because what they get wrong has more validity than what they get right.

Because there was no New Testament in the NTC and the OT did not have a lot of use as most people could not read, the main source of information from God was the Holy Spirit who spoke supernaturally through signs and wonders and of course the prophet who spoke from God as in Agabus prophecy about the coming famine.

Just maybe we don't hear too much from prophets because we don't want to hear from prophets. As someone once said if you don't want revival you won't have revival.

All my studies suggest that all we want is a three-point sermon on Sundays i.e. three points and a delusion (sorry that is meant to be a conclusion). The question is if you had a prophet be it homegrown or a visiting prophet, would you allow him to speak from God and if so would you listen to him? Until you know the answer to that question the whole exercise is moot.

 

[GTW27]

Thanks Scoot for your comment, You are right to be leary, and you should see this very gift (discerning of the Spirits) is what is missing... it is like having tongues without the interpretation of tongues, there is no edification for the Body of Christ, only the individual speaking them.

I Have no doubt many of these so called Prophets are seeing things, But are they from the LORD? Or another source? You asked what standard should we use to discern? The Word of God is first and foremost. Secondly, are they gainsaying? This can vary from monetary gain (Balaam's error) to self aggrandizement and exaltation (Pride) to desire for fame and notoriety. A true Prophet will refuse all of these things. Thirdly, is there conviction from the Holy Ghost there or smooth words that please and foster complacency?

A true Prophet will not point you to themselves but to Christ and the cross, a true prophet will not speak smooth words, but hard words. A true prophet is Hated by many, and understood and received by a few. Often times their words are speaking to the heart of People and will not come to be seen as truthful till sometime later. The true prophet edifies by conviction and repentance, not by building up the whitwashed tombs in the lives of People. (Ego and self esteem).

Paul equated Prophecy as the highest of the Gifts of the Spirit, so we do need these words, now more than ever. For a famine is coming of hearing the word of God. (Amos 8:11)

Just because there is failure, does not mean the gifts have ceased, Only they have been drowned out by the Hoopla of Christianism. We are witnessing a revival of Christianism right now, but there is also a "quiet" revival of true Christianity occurring, in which the Outpouring of the gift of discerning the spirits is occurring.... they will have their eyes opened the rest will not, Hence the strong delusion.

Blessings in Christ Jesus! Speak more David H. and be not detered in what you find here. What you have said is true. The Lord will allow many to be caught unaware. Even in here. The warnings will come, and yet they will not listen. This is to fulfill, what already has been spoken.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... there was a 400-year silence, the period between the Old and New Testaments. ...

Interesting comment, given that there was an ~ 1,800-year silence between the Apostles (~100A.D.) and the time-of-the-end (1914 as accounted in Dan. 11:2), although we know that England (the "lion" in Dan. 7) became a Most Powerful Nation in the early 1700's which could suggest a ~1,600 year silence.

Interesting how GOD manages HIS Scriptures!
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

... The Lord will allow many to be caught unaware. Even in here. The warnings will come, and yet they will not listen. This is to fulfill, what already has been spoken.

I chuckled when I read your "Even in here" statement!
Bobby Jo

 

[David H.]

I would certainly hold the above as necessitating the gift of discerning of spirits, only as of yet I view most false prophecy as originating more in the minds of men than through demonic inspiration.

But if you have interest, I'd be curious to exchange thoughts on who you regard to be true prophets in the earth at the current time. I can send you a private conversation if you are interested.

Yes, the mind of man is a culprit as well, But that mind is where the demons operate, and this is the battleground. Seductions manipulate the mind, Seductions turn your focus to carnal things such as earthly success and self aggrandizement, we see this happen over and over again in these Prophets....

Just to give some examples from the Pentecostal movement, I thought William Branham was truly a prophet, but he fell into Balaam's error and gainsaying. What he was given early on was good until he wrote himself into his prophecies and elevated his own position as the messenger of Laodicea.... from there it was downhill as he devolved into false doctrines and teachings.
One who we have very little from, But who I consider a true Prophet is Robert Burnell, who wrote "Escape from Christendom" I have not seen any of his other writings nor is there much on him on the web apart from this vision, but the words he gave are very prophetic, and have proven true. If You have never read that I encourage you to do so. I Understand he has joined up with Rick Joyner as well, who I consider heretical with his NAR teachings.
Outside of Pentecostalism I have found the words of A.W. Tozer to be very prophetic to the days we are living in now. He was more of a seer than a prophet, but what he saw was from God and was full of Holy Ghost discernment. From His criticism of the fundamentalists to his criticism of the Pentecostal and Calvinist, He was Holy Spirit taught, which very few of today's leaders are anymore. he was not afraid to write what he was given to write.

This falling into Balaam's error and gainsaying is taking its toll on many modern prophets. With the rise of the web and social media, it is easy to put your prophecy out there and receive praise and that goes to your head. For example, Jonathon Caan, who spoke profoundly early on has gotten the "Elijah syndrome" now. Others have been coopted by the politics of the country, such as Mark Taylor. Will God use these people again, or will they be fallen prophets? I do not know. God has a way of restoring them at times. But this is where we stand now regarding prophecy in the church, will they all repent when the outpouring of the gift of discerning of the spirits is given? It depends on how much they love the world and the things of the world at the time.

 

[David H.]

I'm wanting to be very careful here not to 'throw the baby out with the bath water'. All this has given me serious promptings to reconsider all in this area because I know what I've seen needs to be seriously questioned. This has me currently in an position where I'm considering what ceassationists believe and why - but also open too that gifts may have continued but what we're seeing now is the enemy counterfeiting so much that it's casing people to doubt that there's any real genuine out there.

There is a simple solution here, and that is one of focus. To expand on your analogy, You have the Baby in the water with the continuationist camp, and you have the soap and no water in the cessationist camp. Do Not be afraid to go to the cesattionionist side and find the bar of soap, and bring that to the bath tub with the water and the baby, as that is when cleansing happens. Do you understand this? We all Know in Part, In Fellowship we will more fully see the whole. There are Brothers and sisters in the cessationist camp, who for one reason or another are afraid of the other camp for their focus is on the soap and not on the water, But you need both to fully cleanse the baby. Human pride is what keeps the two groups divided, which were meant to be as one, perfectly one.

When you see this you can learn to apply these same principle to all the divides in the church, Calvin and Arminius, Eternal security and conditional security, law keeping vs. free grace, etc. Clean out the "ism" of Christianism, and all you have left is Christian, and Christ.

 

[Hidden In Him]

One who we have very little from, But who I consider a true Prophet is Robert Burnell, who wrote "Escape from Christendom"

I hold Escape From Christendom in very high regard as well.

About Joyner supporting the movement, a look at the Wiki on NAR leads me to think the Cessationist crowd may simply be at work again making false accusations based on assumption. Highly suspect is the fact that several of the characters associated with NAR actually have little virtually nothing to do with one another.

From the Wiki article:

Member
Though few, if any, organizations publicly espouse connection to the NAR, a movement known for dominion theology and a belief in the continuing ministries of apostles and prophets alongside those of evangelists, pastors, and teachers, there are several individuals often associated with this movement including:

• Lou Engle, founder of TheCall[7]
• Bill Johnson, head pastor of Bethel Church
• Guillermo Maldonado, co-founder and senior pastor of El Rey Jesús
• Rick Joyner, founder of MorningStar Ministries
• John P. Kelly, founder of John P. Kelly Ministries and Convening Apostle
• C. Peter Wagner, founder of Global Harvest Ministries[1]
• Ché Ahn, Harvest International Ministries[8]
• Todd White, Lifestyle Christianity[8]
• Randy Clark, Global Awakening[8]
• Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Copeland Ministries[9][10]

C. Peter Wagner of Global Harvest Ministries considers that the year 2001 was the beginning of the second apostolic age, for the movement holds that the lost offices of prophet and apostle were restored in that year.[11]

After being named as part of the NAR, and critics believing that Bethel Church was instrumental in leading some Christians to embrace tenets of NAR, Pastor Johnson of Bethel became regularly listed as an NAR leader. Johnson admitting that he does believe in the apostolic and prophetic ministries, he denied however in an official statement that his church had any official ties to the NAR."[12]

When Rick Joyner of the MorningStar Ministries was listed, he announced that "there will likewise be a horde of false apostles released" continuing: "Our team received two very specific dreams warning about false 'apostolic movements' that were built more on organization than relationship. The dreams indicated that these were trying to bring forth apostles that were really more like corporate CEOs, and the movement that they led had the potential to do great damage to the church. The enemy's intent with this false apostolic movement was to have the church develop a deep revulsion to anything that was called apostolic."[13]

Wagner, the founder of the movement, is a Dominionist, as is Maldonado and possibly some of the others. But Joyner has consistently distanced himself from Dominionism despite being continually accused of believing in it. The trouble is, groups like NAR and others before it have used the language of Joyner to reinterpret what is being said, so that a spiritual "revolution" is turned into an NAR revolution.

Link 13 above is from the following, in which Joyner uses the language of spiritual revolution as he has since 1980. But I think too many people are accusing him of believing in and supporting things he doesn't. If Joyner has made one mistake, it is associated himself with other people to try and "train" other prophets. It might be well-meaning, but my personal opinion is that true prophets tend to be loners, and for very good reason. I think the people he has put around him have done him more harm than good, and distracted Him from his calling if anything.

Revolution

Outside of Pentecostalism I have found the words of A.W. Tozer to be very prophetic to the days we are living in now. He was more of a seer than a prophet, but what he saw was from God and was full of Holy Ghost discernment. From His criticism of the fundamentalists to his criticism of the Pentecostal and Calvinist, He was Holy Spirit taught, which very few of today's leaders are anymore. he was not afraid to write what he was given to write.

This falling into Balaam's error and gainsaying is taking its toll on many modern prophets. With the rise of the web and social media, it is easy to put your prophecy out there and receive praise and that goes to your head. For example, Jonathon Caan, who spoke profoundly early on has gotten the "Elijah syndrome" now. Others have been coopted by the politics of the country, such as Mark Taylor.

I tried reading a little of Jonathon Cahn. He struck me as very lightweight. I think Taylor was accurate, but I know nothing else about him outside the Trump prophecies. Never have read any of Tozer. Lord willing maybe I will be led to pick up some of his works some day.

God bless, and thanks for the reply. Not that I am a 100% Joyner supporter - like I said, he screwed up when he associated himself with others instead of remaining separated unto God, and somewhat guilty himself of "building an organization" at the expense of relationship - but I do think his analysis is essentially correct here and agrees with yours. Before the manifestation of any significant portion of true prophets and eventually apostles emerges, there will be a horde of false ones released. And as we are seeing now, a revulsion for the real thing is already being created in advance, so that when the real thing arises it will be rejected.

 

[David H.]

About Joyner supporting the movement, a look at the Wiki on NAR leads me to think the Cessationist crowd may simply be at work again making false accusations based on assumption. Highly suspect is the fact that several of the characters associated with NAR actually have little virtually nothing to do with one another.

You may be right here and I have not done due dilligence on Joyner in this regard, NAR is heretical though, and as the wiki states, many do not make claim to it who are tied to it.

Link 13 above is from the following, in which Joyner uses the language of spiritual revolution as he has since 1980. But I think too many people are accusing him of believing in and supporting things he doesn't. If Joyner has made one mistake, it is associated himself with other people to try and "train" other prophets. It might be well-meaning, but my personal opinion is that true prophets tend to be loners, and for very good reason. I think the people he has put around him have done him more harm than good, and distracted Him from his calling if anything.

True Prophets are loners in the sense that they see men as God sees them. I think of Hosea here as a prime example, he was taken and told to marry a harlot so that he could understand the heart of God for the people of Israel and their harlotry. It is from this hard experience he learned the How God sees things and feels and hurts when his people fall into sin. God Showed Isaiah the wickedness of the People from God's eyes and all he could say is woe is me for i am undone, a man of unclean lips among a people of unclean lips (Isaiah 6:5). This is where Unction is born and the Prophecy begins, in utter brokeness, and not in self glorification. this is why the words of a prophet are not smooth, but hard and maligned by men. This is why no true prophet dares take glory upon themselves that is due to God.

I agree with you there is a flood of false prophets to discredit the true ones. It is getting to the point now that hearing hard words is no longer tolerated in churches so as not to offend. The churches are not safe spaces, but the places we need to hear the Word of truth and be convicted by the Holy Ghost to repent. That goes for non believers and Christians alike. When the church becomes a place of complacency and comfort is when she dies. Many are already dead.

Re: Tozer... He wrote the following:
If Christianity is to receive a rejuvenation, it must be by other means than any now being used. If the Church in the second half of this century is to recover from the injuries she suffered in the first half, there must appear a new type of preacher. The proper, ruler-of-the-synagogue type will never do. Neither will the priestly type of man who carries out his duties, takes his pay and asks no questions, nor the smooth-talking pastoral type who knows how to make the Christian religion acceptable to everyone. All these have been tried and found wanting.

Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many), he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom. Such a man is likely to be lean, rugged, blunt- spoken and a little bit angry with the world. He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness to die for the glory of the One and the salvation of the other. But he will fear nothing that breathes with mortal breath. The Size of the Soul, 128-129.

This I feel is what the final outpouring of the discerning of spirits will look like IMO. Then read Luke 21:12-19

 

[n2thelight]

All I can say is that all prophecy comes from God,if it's not in His Word it's not happening.
The prophets have already spoken.

 

[David H.]

All I can say is that all prophecy comes from God,if it's not in His Word it's not happening.
The prophets have already spoken.

n2,
Question for you, Do you believe there is a "latter rain" to come? When Peter quotes Joel at Pentecost he left the parts out of the latter rain, because he knew what he was receiving was the early rain.
Read Acts 2:16-21
Now compare to Joel 2:23-32

Notice the parts on the former and latter rain were not included in Peter's speech. Now this would not be that big a deal except that James makes mention of this Latter rain at the time when the Lord returns. Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain. (James 5:7)

Yes, the written prophecies have all been written, but not all of them have been unsealed and revealed, so there is no new scripture being written, but there is revelation and unsealing occurring. By shutting the door to this revelation, you are Locking Jesus out no different than the Pentecostals do with their lack of discerning of the spirits, and having opened the door to all manner of seducing spirits.

Paul said: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (1 cor. 2:7)
Paul was revealing mysteries already in the Word of God such as the gospel to the Gentiles, and we too in these end times will also reveal and unseal them so that it will be plain that the Lord showed us the end from the beginning Isaiah 46:10.

According to 1 cor. 13, when is it that cessation of the gifts does occur, the answer is right there in scripture, the question is are we there yet?
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away. (verses 8-10)

Has that perfect come? Have we reached the fulness of Christ yet? Ephesians 4:11-16, Revelation 3:20 The following is from Thayer's Lexicon Re: what it means to Sup with Him.... " I will make him to share in my most intimate and blissful intercourse:"

In Closing the door to such revelation you are closing the door in the face of Christ Jesus and locking him out of your fellowship. This is the very thing that leads to Christianism. Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away. (2 Timothy 3:5)

 

[Bobby Jo]

... the written prophecies have all been written, but not all of them have been unsealed and revealed, ...

I'm not sure you're aware of what HAS been unsealed. (Ref. Dan. 12:4 & 9) Certainly we haven't seen the Trumpet and Bowls, but lacking Ezekiel 38 & 39, quite a bit HAS been unsealed starting with WWI onward; and Israel was CALLED, and BECAME a nation.

Perhaps you should know that we stand at the door of Dan. 11:40,

Dan. 11:40 “At the time of the end the king of the south (the U.S.) shall attack him; but the king of the north (Russia) shall rush upon him like a whirlwind, with chariots and horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall come into countries and shall overflow and pass through. 41 He shall come into the glorious land. And tens of thousands shall fall, but these shall be delivered out of his hand: Edom and Moab and the main part of the Ammonites. 42 He shall stretch out his hand against the countries, and the land of Egypt shall not escape. 43 He shall become ruler of the treasures of gold and of silver, and all the precious things of Egypt; and the Libyans and the Ethiopians shall follow in his train. 44 But tidings from the east (China) and the north (dissent within Russia) shall alarm him, and he shall go forth with great fury to exterminate and utterly destroy many. 45 And he (the U.N.) shall pitch his palatial tents between the sea and the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, with none to help him.​

But if a person were prudent, he would start at 11:2 (WWI), and arrive at 11:40 just to make sure everything is in proper CONTEXT, and not jumping to CONCLUSIONS as so many ill advised individuals yield.

Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

...
Another kind of religious leader must arise among us. He must be of the old prophet type, a man who has seen visions of God and has heard a voice from the Throne. When he comes (and I pray God there will be not one but many), he will stand in flat contradiction to everything our smirking, smooth civilization holds dear. He will contradict, denounce and protest in the name of God and will earn the hatred and opposition of a large segment of Christendom. Such a man is likely to be lean, rugged, blunt- spoken and a little bit angry with the world. He will love Christ and the souls of men to the point of willingness to die for the glory of the One and the salvation of the other. But he will fear nothing that breathes with mortal breath. The Size of the Soul, 128-129.
...

Looks to me like you're describing Trump and Pence, -- who I already anticipate are the Two Witnesses.

Interesting!
Bobby Jo