The problem I see here with all this that some seem to ignore is Christianity is not an academic study. All the academics are helpful,but you can not explain faith with words or brains or book learning, you can study and get deeper meaning to verses ect. but the minute you stop depending on God putting a knowing of understanig on your heart you will be lost forever in words and details. here a descripton I found of the fate of this kind of study:The promblem with compartmentalizing truth to the point that they can make unbiblical distinctions. An almost obsessive desire to categorize everything neatly has led various dispensationalist interpreters to hard lines not only between the church and Israel, but also between salvation and discipleship, the church and the kingdom, Christ's preaching and the apostolic message, faith and repentance, and the age of law and the age of grace. The age of law/age of grace division in particular has wreaked havoc on dispensationalist theology and contributed to confusion about the doctrine of salvation.And God is not the author of confusion you do not allow for the wonder of it all you miss Gods wonderful plan in totality by divideing and anlizing the details to death.
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Are you saying, Kriss, that those distinction in the list I provided are a figment of imagination? that there is no difference? nothing to rightly divide? or that God has not spoken at sundry (various) times and in divers manners (many ways)? For example, should we be teaching that it is time to build an ark? Or that when the LORD said HE came not but for Israel, did HE get that wrong somehow, and really meant that HE came for all people no matter what nation they were from? That the kingdom and the church are the same thing? Say it isn't soAs for me, I believe that the LORD's words are pure and Holy and have specific meaning in specific contextual settings. I don't think we should make them mean what our poor understanding affords.Where you mention 'An almost obsessive desire to categorize everything neatly...', I can only say that God has made these distinctions not me, and that All Scripture is profitable, and that although I honor all that is written, I must admit that when the letter head says thus saith the LORD to Israel, or the twelve tribes scattered abroad, I am keenly aware I am reading another of God's called out people, and yet, I do find that there are letters with my name on them, "YOU GENTILES", which are written specifically for my instruction and, if I want truth, for me to rightly divide in all acknowledgment.App. 113. CBTHE "KINGDOM" AND THE "CHURCH".From Appendixes 112 and 114 it will be seen that, if each use of the term "kingdom" has its own special and particular meaning and must not be confused with others that differ, there must be still greater confusion if any one of them is identified with "the Church", as is very commonly done : though which of the Kingdoms and which of the Churches is never definitely pointed out.The following reasons may be given which will show that "the Kingdom" and "the Church" cannot thus be identified :-- 1. The subjects of the former are spoken of as "inheriting", or as being "heirs of the Kingdom"; but we cannot speak of inheriting or being heirs of "the Church". 2. We read of the possibility of "receiving the Kingdom", but in no sense can any Church be spoken of as being received. 3. We read of "the elders of the Churches", messengers or servants of the Churches, but never of the elders, &c. of the Kingdom. 4. The word basileia, translated "kingdom", occurs 162 times, and in the plural only in Matt. 4:8. Luke 4:5. Heb. 11:33. Rev. 11:15. On the other hand, the word ekklesia occurs 115 times, and of these 36 are in the plural and 79 in the singular, all rendered "church" except in Acts 19:32, 39, 41, "assembly". 5. We read of "the children (or sons) of the Kingdom", but the Bible knows nothing of the sons of "the Church". 6. The characteristics of each are distinct. 7. The names and appellatives of "the Church" are never used of the Kingdom (Eph. 1:23; 2:21; 4:4, 16; 5:30. Col. 1:24. 1Tim. 3:15). 8. The privilege of "that Church" which consists of the partakers of "a heavenly calling", Heb. 3:1 (see Ap. 112. 4, 5); Rev. 20:4-6, will be to reign with Christ over the earthly Kingdom, whereas that Kingdom will be "under the whole heaven" (Dan. 7:27). 9. The Church" of the Prison Epistles (Eph., Phil., Col.) is here and now, in the world, and is waiting for its exanastasis, and its "heavenward call" (Phil. 3:11, 14); whereas the Kingdom is not here, because the King is not here (Heb. 2:8). 10. The Kingdom is the one great subject of prophecy; whereas the Church (of the Prison Epistles) is not the subject of prophecy, but, on the contrary, was kept secret, and hidden in God, until the time came for the secret to be revealed. (see Ap. 112. 5). It must be understood that this "secret" (Gr. musterion, see Ap. 193) did not and could not refer to Jews and Gentiles in future blessing, because this was never a secret, but was part of the original promise made to Abraham in Gen. 12:3, and was repeatedly spoken of throughout the Psalms and the Prophets. See Deut. 32:43. Ps. 18:49; 117:1. Isa. 11:1, 10, &c. Cp. Rom. 15:8-12, and the quotations there given.
I would agree, epouraniois, that time is not a factor in dispensations. I thought that I had made that clear.
I am sorry writer4hisglory, I went back and re read your post, and yes, you did make that clear. Please forgive me. Sometimes I read too fast.
(epouraniois;9407)
there doesn't seem to be concert amongst the ranks of those taking upon themselves the Label of Dispensationalist.
Agreed. I just meant to point Writer in a general direction with language that might be easily understood.
The Word dispensation is the translation of the Greek oikonomia.
I have been known to use the English "economy", which is a, uh, how do you say, well, anyway, it comes from the Greek word. God is up there doing his administering, and we are in a different age/period from the time before Christ, most definitely.
I will read up on the "house" thing. You post more than I can process, though. I am slow with assimilating things. I'd make a poor Borg, that's for sure. (Sorry, Star Trek joke).Oh, I read the article by Baker. I do read what you have posted to me, even if I haven't responded to it all.
there doesn't seem to be concert amongst the ranks of those taking upon themselves the Label of Dispensationalist.
Agreed. I just meant to point Writer in a general direction with language that might be easily understood.
The Word dispensation is the translation of the Greek oikonomia.
I have been known to use the English "economy", which is a, uh, how do you say, well, anyway, it comes from the Greek word. God is up there doing his administering, and we are in a different age/period from the time before Christ, most definitely.
(epouraniois;9466)
Are you saying, Kriss, that those distinction in the list I provided are a figment of imagination? that there is no difference? nothing to rightly divide? or that God has not spoken at sundry (various) times and in divers manners (many ways)? For example, should we be teaching that it is time to build an ark? Or that when the LORD said HE came not but for Israel, did HE get that wrong somehow, and really meant that HE came for all people no matter what nation they were from? That the kingdom and the church are the same thing? Say it isn't soAs for me, I believe that the LORD's words are pure and Holy and have specific meaning in specific contextual settings. I don't think we should make them mean what our poor understanding affords.Where you mention 'An almost obsessive desire to categorize everything neatly...', I can only say that God has made these distinctions not me, and that All Scripture is profitable, and that although I honor all that is written, I must admit that when the letter head says thus saith the LORD to Israel, or the twelve tribes scattered abroad, I am keenly aware I am reading another of God's called out people, and yet, I do find that there are letters with my name on them, "YOU GENTILES", which are written specifically for my instruction and, if I want truth, for me to rightly divide in all acknowledgment..
No of course the word has to be rightly divided I am saying that you can not treat the bible just as text to be categorized put in peg holes.Gods distinctions need to be made this is true but it alone also will teach you his word depending on who is doing the dividing and categorizing can make it say whatever they want. I am saying without Gods guidance man can not properly divide and categorize. Im saying you are a master at finding scripture to say what you want. (right or wrong) but fail to explain or understand the why of it.You talk only of what is proper in your opinion in a space of time but give nothing of the spiritual implications. You treat the word as a history book and fail to recognize the holiness of the words it is conveying. Another words your details on every little thing cause one to not get spiritual food nesscary to grasp the Word of God
Are you saying, Kriss, that those distinction in the list I provided are a figment of imagination? that there is no difference? nothing to rightly divide? or that God has not spoken at sundry (various) times and in divers manners (many ways)? For example, should we be teaching that it is time to build an ark? Or that when the LORD said HE came not but for Israel, did HE get that wrong somehow, and really meant that HE came for all people no matter what nation they were from? That the kingdom and the church are the same thing? Say it isn't soAs for me, I believe that the LORD's words are pure and Holy and have specific meaning in specific contextual settings. I don't think we should make them mean what our poor understanding affords.Where you mention 'An almost obsessive desire to categorize everything neatly...', I can only say that God has made these distinctions not me, and that All Scripture is profitable, and that although I honor all that is written, I must admit that when the letter head says thus saith the LORD to Israel, or the twelve tribes scattered abroad, I am keenly aware I am reading another of God's called out people, and yet, I do find that there are letters with my name on them, "YOU GENTILES", which are written specifically for my instruction and, if I want truth, for me to rightly divide in all acknowledgment..
No of course the word has to be rightly divided I am saying that you can not treat the bible just as text to be categorized put in peg holes.Gods distinctions need to be made this is true but it alone also will teach you his word depending on who is doing the dividing and categorizing can make it say whatever they want. I am saying without Gods guidance man can not properly divide and categorize. Im saying you are a master at finding scripture to say what you want. (right or wrong) but fail to explain or understand the why of it.You talk only of what is proper in your opinion in a space of time but give nothing of the spiritual implications. You treat the word as a history book and fail to recognize the holiness of the words it is conveying. Another words your details on every little thing cause one to not get spiritual food nesscary to grasp the Word of God
Im saying you are a master at finding scripture to say what you want.
And yet I am not found in self contradiction (or show any signs of double mindedness) do IActually, I try very hard to keep close to Scripture, hoping this may at some point become noticeable, showing what the Bible declares, not having so much any personal declaration other than acknowledgment as to who was written what, when, why, and where it occurs and the context therein given, and by whom ~Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. which is allied with 2 Tim. 2:15.While I may be wrong, it seems you are saying that by digging really deep into the word of God, it can be confusing, while I rather believe that by digging really deeply into the word of God the best treasures await finding.Just a reminder, I don't expect anyone to get spiritual direction from me, as it is the LORD who reveals. My goal is to share where things can be found. And these things do require more than a cursory review, they indeed do require prayerful study, again and again and again. Paul beseeches the saints to “walk worthy of the vocation” wherewith they had been “called”. The word “vocation” carries with it the idea of employment AND calling. The life’s work of the member of the Church, which is His Body, is that of walking “worthy”. All who are called into the many membered Body have the responsibility of a life that is equivalent to the call of grace. The inspired words of Scripture are words the Holy Spirit teacheth, 1Co 2:13.I ask that you not take my word on anything, only that you search and see if a thing is so.
And yet I am not found in self contradiction (or show any signs of double mindedness) do IActually, I try very hard to keep close to Scripture, hoping this may at some point become noticeable, showing what the Bible declares, not having so much any personal declaration other than acknowledgment as to who was written what, when, why, and where it occurs and the context therein given, and by whom ~Pro 3:6 In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. which is allied with 2 Tim. 2:15.While I may be wrong, it seems you are saying that by digging really deep into the word of God, it can be confusing, while I rather believe that by digging really deeply into the word of God the best treasures await finding.Just a reminder, I don't expect anyone to get spiritual direction from me, as it is the LORD who reveals. My goal is to share where things can be found. And these things do require more than a cursory review, they indeed do require prayerful study, again and again and again. Paul beseeches the saints to “walk worthy of the vocation” wherewith they had been “called”. The word “vocation” carries with it the idea of employment AND calling. The life’s work of the member of the Church, which is His Body, is that of walking “worthy”. All who are called into the many membered Body have the responsibility of a life that is equivalent to the call of grace. The inspired words of Scripture are words the Holy Spirit teacheth, 1Co 2:13.I ask that you not take my word on anything, only that you search and see if a thing is so.
Then what is the point do you think us all so dense we can not read the words ourselves you just spend words and time telling us what we already know but what does it mean your are just rewriting in chronalogical orderit is in the order its in for a reason. you completely miss the teaching of types, the details you exclude are the ones that teach. For example did you ever notice the details on how large the grapes were when Josuha sent out his spies to Jericho? it took two men to carry them back these were giants in jericho which leads you back to the second influx of fallen angles after the flood. As a christain I want to not only know when the flood was but the why. You spend so much time on the when you miss the why.
Yes, but we have not taken up that study to date have we? You seem to be getting angry. Will you now point out all of the studies that we have not yet shared in some hope of undermining what I have shared? May I politely suggest that we all take advantage of what the other has to offer, and allow God to do the revealing. Some of us may only be here for a short time, and we should make it of good use as 2 Tim 2:16-17 is suggestive, while Eph 5:16 has the idea of getting to the market place early to get the best bargains, while falling within a three verse contextually profound arrangement (and in the practice section/not the instructional section) we read ~Eph 5:15 See then that ye walk circumspectly, not as fools, but as wise, Eph 5:16 Redeeming the time, because the days are evil. Eph 5:17 Wherefore be ye not unwise, but understanding what the will of the Lord is. .Col 4:5 Walk in wisdom toward them that are without, redeeming the time.
I am not angry I am frustrated because you are wasting so much of what you have to offer I am sorry but I do not get much from your studies that's what frusrtates me. I get facts I already know or time lines I do care about.unless I am studing that subject. Frankly I am so sick of reading about Paul if I see one more Paul said I am going to scream. Could you at least mix it up. I would like to see a study on the Giants,kennites, Revelation anything but Paul. Have you ever read Swampfoxes sin in the Garden?
Then what is the point do you think us all so dense we can not read the words ourselveskriss
wow, that is a stumper there. because I am interested in showing forth what the words the Holy Spirit teacheth brings to bear on subject and object of the context, this links me with thinking others are somehow dense?I won't even ask where you got that from.I would point out though, in response, that during the Acts, we find in John's epistles, that they had no need that any man teach them, for they were filled by the Holy Spirit (paraklētos) at that time (as prophesied).But now (in the practice section) ~Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.But now we have need of teachers. In the body of Christ all are equal, all should be able to teach as well as receive sound doctrine in the form of sound words.
wow, that is a stumper there. because I am interested in showing forth what the words the Holy Spirit teacheth brings to bear on subject and object of the context, this links me with thinking others are somehow dense?I won't even ask where you got that from.I would point out though, in response, that during the Acts, we find in John's epistles, that they had no need that any man teach them, for they were filled by the Holy Spirit (paraklētos) at that time (as prophesied).But now (in the practice section) ~Eph 4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; Eph 4:12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ: Eph 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; Eph 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: Eph 4:16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.But now we have need of teachers. In the body of Christ all are equal, all should be able to teach as well as receive sound doctrine in the form of sound words.
(kriss;9488)
I am not angry I am frustrated because you are wasting so much of what you have to offer I am sorry but I do not get much from your studies that's what frusrtates me. I get facts I already know or time lines I do care about.unless I am studing that subject. Frankly I am so sick of reading about Paul if I see one more Paul said I am going to scream. Could you at least mix it up. I would like to see a study on the Giants,kennites, Revelation anything but Paul. Have you ever read Swampfoxes sin in the Garden?
Another wow moment for me here. While I am interested, and do study the WHOLE Bible, I am especially interested in those letters which are particularly written to me, having my name on the envelope and having to do with the one hope of my calling. Paul is the apostle who was SENT to the nations. When we receive the vessel's writings called Paul, we receive Him who SENT him. I personally cannot imagine getting sick of any portion of God's word, and certainly not those letters pertaining to my hope and vocational calling.
I am not angry I am frustrated because you are wasting so much of what you have to offer I am sorry but I do not get much from your studies that's what frusrtates me. I get facts I already know or time lines I do care about.unless I am studing that subject. Frankly I am so sick of reading about Paul if I see one more Paul said I am going to scream. Could you at least mix it up. I would like to see a study on the Giants,kennites, Revelation anything but Paul. Have you ever read Swampfoxes sin in the Garden?
Another wow moment for me here. While I am interested, and do study the WHOLE Bible, I am especially interested in those letters which are particularly written to me, having my name on the envelope and having to do with the one hope of my calling. Paul is the apostle who was SENT to the nations. When we receive the vessel's writings called Paul, we receive Him who SENT him. I personally cannot imagine getting sick of any portion of God's word, and certainly not those letters pertaining to my hope and vocational calling.
I didnt say care about it. I said or maybe meant is a better word that you have preached Paul for a month posted 100,000 words I am sick of studying what I already know over and over. As you said you are interested in what written to you I think the whole word of God is written to me. You seem to think only Paul wrote you.
I didnt say care about it
Of course you did, I quoted it.Nevertheless, are you saying that when God told Noah to build an ark, that you believe He told you to build an ark? I hope you can tell the difference. I am not being smart either, just pointing out the obvious, that God told different people different things at different times, as the word has declared; therefore I must believe this part as well as all other parts,but in their proper God given place. And I maintain that while we are privileged to read God's other children's letters, the law was not written to us, not written that we may take the law unto ourselves, no, it was specifically written for that one nation, apart from all other nations.Some letters are specifically written 'to the twelve tribes' for example, while others are written 'for you gentiles'. Do you not see any difference in the addressee?
Of course you did, I quoted it.Nevertheless, are you saying that when God told Noah to build an ark, that you believe He told you to build an ark? I hope you can tell the difference. I am not being smart either, just pointing out the obvious, that God told different people different things at different times, as the word has declared; therefore I must believe this part as well as all other parts,but in their proper God given place. And I maintain that while we are privileged to read God's other children's letters, the law was not written to us, not written that we may take the law unto ourselves, no, it was specifically written for that one nation, apart from all other nations.Some letters are specifically written 'to the twelve tribes' for example, while others are written 'for you gentiles'. Do you not see any difference in the addressee?
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