Rape, Murder and Dismemberment

[Clarity]

I'm in the process of answering that question here... join me!

 

[tomwebster]

I'm in the process of answering that question here... join me!

NO! I simply want to know the source of your material.

 

[Clarity]

Hello Tom,

I'm just using the scriptures. I'm mostly using the ESV (English Standard Version) as you'll probably gather.
I was brought up reading from the KJV which I still love and use as my primary study Bible. I also find the NET (New English Translation) a useful Bible in my studies.

Thanks for the enquiry!

 

[Comm.Arnold]

It appears to be because every man did what was right in his own eyes.

 

[Rach1370]

Well, I'd say one of the easiest answers is that the Bible, in one way or the other, discusses all the worst things in life. How about sin? The rebellion against God...the worst thing humanity has ever done.
I think a big part of it is awareness. How many non Christian people go through life unaware of the sin that is destroying them? Pride, for example? It's all about self these days, self esteem, self actualization, self fulfillment, looking out for number one, the nuturing of our childrens self. It all leads to self idolatry, which can destroy a person from the inside out.
God, because He loves us, tells us of these horrible things, shows us how destructive they can be, to ourselves, to others and to our relationship with God.

That's my take on a lot of it, anyway. If you're talking about some of the more jaw dropping things that happened in the OT under Gods own commands, well, I'll have to get back to you!! Am sure that had a good and just purpose, just unsure what that may be at this point!!

 

[Clarity]

It appears to be because every man did what was right in his own eyes.

That it is!

Well, I'd say one of the easiest answers is that the Bible, in one way or the other, discusses all the worst things in life. How about sin? The rebellion against God...the worst thing humanity has ever done.
I think a big part of it is awareness. How many non Christian people go through life unaware of the sin that is destroying them? Pride, for example? It's all about self these days, self esteem, self actualization, self fulfillment, looking out for number one, the nuturing of our childrens self. It all leads to self idolatry, which can destroy a person from the inside out.
God, because He loves us, tells us of these horrible things, shows us how destructive they can be, to ourselves, to others and to our relationship with God.

That's my take on a lot of it, anyway. If you're talking about some of the more jaw dropping things that happened in the OT under Gods own commands, well, I'll have to get back to you!! Am sure that had a good and just purpose, just unsure what that may be at this point!!

Thanks for this Rach.
Yes you are so right, God doesn't shield us from the worst that our nature can produce but He provides ample warning and guidance as to how to avoid slavery to sin.

I am particularly interested in your identifying of 'the nurturing of our children's self' as a characteristic of modern society.
You may have put your finger on something I've noticed but not been able to articulate... can you expand on what you mean by this phrase?

Thankyou.

 

[Rach1370]

Thanks for this Rach.
Yes you are so right, God doesn't shield us from the worst that our nature can produce but He provides ample warning and guidance as to how to avoid slavery to sin.

I am particularly interested in your identifying of 'the nurturing of our children's self' as a characteristic of modern society.
You may have put your finger on something I've noticed but not been able to articulate... can you expand on what you mean by this phrase?
Thankyou.

It's so important for our children to feel loved, feel valued, feel important, but we need them to realise this through the love and purpose of God. Schools today teach that kids must love themselves to get ahead. It's all about knowing how special they are and then funneling that into whatever they desire to do with their lives. I think the result of this is spoiled, selfish kids who think of others only once they themselves have been satisfied.
We all have a duty to care for ourselves, but why do we do this? Should we do it because we are the reigning king and Lord of our own lives, or because we are loved of and by God?
I just think it's warped to spend a kids whole childhood telling them that they are number one, and then wonder why they struggle to put others first. We wonder why the divorce rate is going up...it's because we can't have a successful marriage when we don't think of the other person...at all!

Anyway, I could proabably go on, but I hope you get the general idea! We are important through Jesus, not through our own stunning personalities!

 

[aspen]

Well, I'd say one of the easiest answers is that the Bible, in one way or the other, discusses all the worst things in life. How about sin? The rebellion against God...the worst thing humanity has ever done.
I think a big part of it is awareness. How many non Christian people go through life unaware of the sin that is destroying them? Pride, for example? It's all about self these days, self esteem, self actualization, self fulfillment, looking out for number one, the nuturing of our childrens self. It all leads to self idolatry, which can destroy a person from the inside out.
God, because He loves us, tells us of these horrible things, shows us how destructive they can be, to ourselves, to others and to our relationship with God.

That's my take on a lot of it, anyway. If you're talking about some of the more jaw dropping things that happened in the OT under Gods own commands, well, I'll have to get back to you!! Am sure that had a good and just purpose, just unsure what that may be at this point!!

The Bible is the Biography of Humanity, written by God, through the hand of humanity. The OT is a record of where we started out (in a perfect relationship with God), and how we got where we are (separated from God); God declaring Himself, once more; and humanities multitude of horrific responses to God's declaration. The NT is a record of God's perfect response to His own declaration - Jesus; His example for us - love; and His Holy Spirit who leads us on in our justification and sanctification, back to where we started from in perfect relationship with God

I AM; therefore, i love

 

[Clarity]

It's so important for our children to feel loved, feel valued, feel important, but we need them to realise this through the love and purpose of God. Schools today teach that kids must love themselves to get ahead. It's all about knowing how special they are and then funneling that into whatever they desire to do with their lives. I think the result of this is spoiled, selfish kids who think of others only once they themselves have been satisfied.
We all have a duty to care for ourselves, but why do we do this? Should we do it because we are the reigning king and Lord of our own lives, or because we are loved of and by God?
I just think it's warped to spend a kids whole childhood telling them that they are number one, and then wonder why they struggle to put others first. We wonder why the divorce rate is going up...it's because we can't have a successful marriage when we don't think of the other person...at all!

Anyway, I could proabably go on, but I hope you get the general idea! We are important through Jesus, not through our own stunning personalities!

Thanks a lot for this Rach. I couldn't agree more. Its humanism really isn't it.
I particularly like this line: We are important through Jesus, not through our own stunning personalities!
This is so contrary to the modern spirit... be yourself, express who YOU are, find YOUR passion... all well and good but where does 'self denial' come into it? Where does dying to self and letting Jesus live in me have a place in a mind consumed with the former?
Anyway. I think we agree.

The Bible is the Biography of Humanity, written by God, through the hand of humanity. The OT is a record of where we started out (in a perfect relationship with God), and how we got where we are (separated from God); God declaring Himself, once more; and humanities multitude of horrific responses to God's declaration. The NT is a record of God's perfect response to His own declaration - Jesus; His example for us - love; and His Holy Spirit who leads us on in our justification and sanctification, back to where we started from in perfect relationship with God

I AM; therefore, i love

Thanks aspen.
Good points. Yes, one of the things I'd like to in a new study (perhaps after I finish the Judges study) is demonstrate the beautiful symmetry of the scripture. Gen 1-3 parallel with Rev 19-22 in a most remarkable way demonstrating Eden restored, man once again in perfect fellowship with his Creator and the breach caused by the 1st Adam, healed by the 2nd. Thanks again.

 

[rockytopva]

To refer to the Earth is to refer to the morbid things of creation. If God left out the morbid things in the bible then he would have a book that wouldn't relate to the planet Earth.

 

[Alethos]

Clarity

A pensive work from a time where men revealed all that is ugly in this dark world. This story is filled with awful acts of violence and divine justice (Judges 20:21). I cannot help but feel for the writer of Judges who painfully recorded all the barbarian and sinful acts that allow us to see our own personal failings and imperfections.

In some strange way this requires our gratitude.

The Master revealed to us the source of these frightful acts in (Matt 15:19) but here in Judges 19 we see them acted out in cruelty. While Judges 20 offers little comfort seeing so many brothers perish.

As a side note, during your studies have you considered which of the Mosaic Laws were broken by Benjamin and that horrendous event of the Levites concubine? And what of Dan?

I was reading Deut 13:12,13,14,15,16 and wondered if these gathered peoples in Judges 20:3 were all thinking and fulfilling the legal requirements of Deut 13:14??? If so, these leaders were very diligent in upholding the Law don’t you think?

Also, was idolatry the source of this crime? It doesn’t appear to be Gibeahs sin, but still may qualify for some form of apostasy? Deut 23:17, 18 must have been taking place for this incident to occur. Maybe these practices had their roots Amorite customs (Judges 11:23)??
I must say one looks forward to reading the book of Ruth :mellow:

But on a serious note this was an age of violence and prepares us for the time when the rider of the white horse will gather his saints in one and make war!

Alethos

 

[rockytopva]

In my view of the church ages...

My Take on the Churches


The Pergamean church age was the one right after the time of the martyrs (Smyrnaen), in which there were 10 persecutions (Revelation 2:10) as so verified in the Foxes book of Martyrs. Pergomos means towers in the Greek probably because that is where they dwelt... In fortified structures.

"A sword age, a wind age, a wolf age. No longer is there mercy among men." - The Sybil's Prophecy

These barbaric times would last as long as the founder of the Pergamean church age, Constantine, city of Constantinople would stand. Very harsh times! Making the stories of the book of Judges look like fairy tales!

 

[Duckybill]

Some will complain that the Bible is too graphic or brutal. I think that's one of its great assets. It shows just how depraved humans can be.

 

[Alethos]

Some will complain that the Bible is too graphic or brutal. I think that's one of its great assets. It shows just how depraved humans can be.

I agree with you here Ducky.

 

[Clarity]

Hi Alethos,

A pensive work from a time where men revealed all that is ugly in this dark world. This story is filled with awful acts of violence and divine justice (Judges 20:21). I cannot help but feel for the writer of Judges who painfully recorded all the barbarian and sinful acts that allow us to see our own personal failings and imperfections.
In some strange way this requires our gratitude.

Yes I agree that God deserves our gratitude for preserving a record of human nature 'warts and all' in the scriptures.

As a side note, during your studies have you considered which of the Mosaic Laws were broken by Benjamin and that horrendous event of the Levites concubine? And what of Dan?

Yes re Benjamin. he phrase ‘abomination’ (zimmâ) and ‘outrage’ (nĕbālâ) used in the Levites speech in chapter 20 are used in contexts in the law which speak particularly of sexual perversity. Ironically, that's in my next post - coming later today! ;-)
Regarding Dan, there's some obvious ones like setting up graven images and basic idolatry which leap out of chapter 18, but we haven't heard the last of Dan in this study by any means... guess I can only say... 'stay tuned'!

I was reading Deut 13:12,13,14,15,16 and wondered if these gathered peoples in Judges 20:3 were all thinking and fulfilling the legal requirements of Deut 13:14??? If so, these leaders were very diligent in upholding the Law don’t you think?

Absolutely. Again, see my next post!

Also, was idolatry the source of this crime? It doesn’t appear to be Gibeahs sin, but still may qualify for some form of apostasy? Deut 23:17, 18 must have been taking place for this incident to occur. Maybe these practices had their roots Amorite customs (Judges 11:23)??

I don't think idolatry was at the base of Gibeah's crime. Seems to me it was just old fashioned male lust out of control... however, there seems to have certainly been a desensitization to abhorrent Caananite practices, so its feasible that idolatry was in the background somewhere.

Thanks for your thoughts. Really nice to see someone's reading this stuff and giving it some decent thought!

 

[Clarity]

In my view of the church ages...

My Take on the Churches


The Pergamean church age was the one right after the time of the martyrs (Smyrnaen), in which there were 10 persecutions (Revelation 2:10) as so verified in the Foxes book of Martyrs. Pergomos means towers in the Greek probably because that is where they dwelt... In fortified structures.

"A sword age, a wind age, a wolf age. No longer is there mercy among men." - The Sybil's Prophecy

These barbaric times would last as long as the founder of the Pergamean church age, Constantine, city of Constantinople would stand. Very harsh times! Making the stories of the book of Judges look like fairy tales!

Thanks rocky.

Just shows that the Gentile haven't been much better in responding to the pearl of great price than the Jews.

In my view of the church ages...

 

[Clarity]

Some will complain that the Bible is too graphic or brutal. I think that's one of its great assets. It shows just how depraved humans can be.

Amen.

 

[Comm.Arnold]

Some will complain that the Bible is too graphic or brutal. I think that's one of its great assets. It shows just how depraved humans can be.

h34r: Brutal honesty is brutal.

 

[aspen]

Some will complain that the Bible is too graphic or brutal. I think that's one of its great assets. It shows just how depraved humans can be.

I agree with you, as well. In fact, if the Bible left out all the brutality it would fail as a historical document and considered simply another fairytale.