Reader Poll - Where did the Bible come from?

[Peterlag]

Books containing the letters are somewhat rare and difficult to find. I should have bought the one I found in a bookstore that I read through. (Paul's letters are short...paper and ink were expensive at the time) I haven't found another even with a Google search. I keep hoping though.

My experience with this and I have never found it to be otherwise is that these letters or new found scrolls are never Scripture. I know enough about Scripture to know when I see real Bible or just a man writing letters. Based on everything I have ever saw I doubt that these letters of Paul are Scripture.

 

[Randy Kluth]

The reason inspiration doesn't catch it for you is because you're not one of the ones being inspired.

You may have misunderstood--maybe not? What I was saying is that "inspiration" alone doesn't catch it for me. Lots of artists claim they were "inspired"--that is not the same thing as being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Certainly, I believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in determining what books should serve as canon. They were books that were inspired in such a way as to present truth that is reliable for the Church, building a foundation for future historical development.

 

[Peterlag]

You may have misunderstood--maybe not? What I was saying is that "inspiration" alone doesn't catch it for me. Lots of artists claim they were "inspired"--that is not the same thing as being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Certainly, I believe in the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in determining what books should serve as canon. They were books that were inspired in such a way as to present truth that is reliable for the Church, building a foundation for future historical development.

My point is inspiration is not that big of a deal once you plug into it. I have two very good friends who tell me that I'm probably wrong in the way I understand the spirit. And yet these same two guys tell me they never heard from God.

 

[Randy Kluth]

My point is inspiration is not that big of a deal once you plug into it. I have two very good friends who tell me that I'm probably wrong in the way I understand the spirit. And yet these same two guys tell me they never heard from God.

It's a mistake to listen to guys like that! Anybody so careless as to contradict themselves in that way should be taken with a mountain of salt.

 

[St. SteVen]

I don't see any letters there. Just a report talking about them.

This is a good source for early church writings.
Have you read the Didache? Polycarp? Clement of Alexandria? ...
The Gospel of Thomas? (I doubt it) - LOL

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

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[JohnDB]

My experience with this and I have never found it to be otherwise is that these letters or new found scrolls are never Scripture. I know enough about Scripture to know when I see real Bible or just a man writing letters. Based on everything I have ever saw I doubt that these letters of Paul are Scripture.

Right, Paul's lost letters aren't really lost or are they scripture....they are very much Paul's writing....just not scripture.

When people read them they get the same feeling I get about them...."Yep, that's Paul! But the letters aren't scriptures" They do reference the same things as his other letters so we aren't losing anything.

The Apocrypha writings are another example of "not scripture" even though they were included along side of scripture for a long time. The history they contain isn't accurate either. It gets close to being accurate but still has errors within it AND it contradicts scriptures with some of the things it promotes. (Like Purgatory) These writings do give us some insights to the 500-600 years between the Testaments. And for that they are okayish.
Even the religious fiction story "Enoch, The Seventh from Adam" gives us insights into commonly known myths....and Jesus quoted the book a few times. Sure, the parts quoted are now scripture because Jesus said it. But that doesn't make the book scripture. And the book itself claims it's not scripture in the first chapter...but people want it to be. (Multiple authorship is declaring it fails the first test of scripture) also literary analysis shows it was written somewhere around 100 BC in Egypt.

Mary's gospel, Gospel of Thomas and etc are works written sometime after the Church ruled the world. (Just after Constantine) because nobility would pay for these things...so people would create them and sell them. Because nobility didn't know scripture didn't care to know it and was just going along with the "Christian Fad" of the Leadership.

 

[Peterlag]

This is a good source for early church writings.
Have you read the Didache? Polycarp? Clement of Alexandria? ...
The Gospel of Thomas? (I doubt it) - LOL

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

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I looked over the gospel of Thomas. And nothing caught my attention.

 

[St. SteVen]

I looked over the gospel of Thomas. And nothing caught my attention.

I would anticipate the same level of disappointment with the lost letters of Paul.

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[Wick Stick]

Fifth option. Not everything, but quite a bit.

I hold all the books of prophecy to be inspired, including Deuteronomy and Psalms (which are prophetic books but usually classed as Law and Poetry, respectively).

What isn't inspired? The books of History (Jos - 2Ch, Ezra, Nehemiah). The Poetic books that aren't written by David (Esther, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, Songs). The historical bits of the New Testament. The 3 Pastoral epistles that were deemed to be Paul's but aren't actually (1Ti - Titus).

For many books, it's a mixture. The author may not be a prophet, but he recounts places where prophets speak, and I take those bits as inspired. For some books that ends up being most of the book (e.g. Exodus). The words of Jesus - inspired. Words attributed directly to God - inspired. Any place where the author claims to give a word of prophecy or speak by way of inspiration - inspired.

Essentially, I hold to a rule - if it says it's inspired, believe it.

 

[St. SteVen]

Fifth option. Not everything, but quite a bit.

I see it that way as well. Thanks.

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[Peterlag]

I would anticipate the same level of disappointment with the lost letters of Paul.

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I would however, read every word if I thought it was really written by Paul.

 

[St. SteVen]

I would however, read every word if I thought it was really written by Paul.

Would you read his grocery list?

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

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[St. SteVen]

For many books, it's a mixture. The author may not be a prophet, but he recounts places where prophets speak, and I take those bits as inspired. For some books that ends up being most of the book (e.g. Exodus). The words of Jesus - inspired. Words attributed directly to God - inspired. Any place where the author claims to give a word of prophecy or speak by way of inspiration - inspired.

Agree.

I find it interesting that so many Christians are so loyal to the words of the Bible, but have no idea where it came from.

The typical reaction when I want to talk about it.


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[Athanasius377]

Agree.

I find it interesting that so many Christians are so loyal to the words of the Bible, but have no idea where it came from.

The typical reaction when I want to talk about it.
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The issue of the Canon is pretty fascinating history. Some of the books I have found helpful are:
-The Old Testament Canon of the New Testament Church and Its Background in Early Judaism by Roger Beckwith
-The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce
-The Question of Canon and Canon Revisited by Michael Kruger

Being ignorant of things like the origin of the biblical canon is how folks like Bart Erman are created.

 

[Athanasius377]

This is a good source for early church writings.
Have you read the Didache? Polycarp? Clement of Alexandria? ...
The Gospel of Thomas? (I doubt it) - LOL

Early Christian Writings: New Testament, Apocrypha, Gnostics, Church Fathers

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I would also mention that New Advent, while a Romish run site does put on its site the classic Schaff series' Ante and Post Nicene Fathers. Its a wealth of information from the Early Church Fathers though be aware there may be more than one recension on a given work and the website owners will usually take the latest version of a given text like Ignatius of Antioch.

 

[JohnDB]

Agree.

I find it interesting that so many Christians are so loyal to the words of the Bible, but have no idea where it came from.

The typical reaction when I want to talk about it.
View attachment 44297

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Yeah....I'm not one of those.

After careful reading and studying the scriptures and looking carefully at what was said, why it was said in the way it was said. The cannon of scriptures is a miracle. There is no other collection of history, letters, wisdom, and prophesy that is anywhere near the same. It was either written by madmen geniuses or God....

No one argues about Homer's Illead the same way they argue about scriptures and we only have 4 copies of Homer's work.

Nevermind the minor inconclusive differences that are argued incessantly by KJV advocates. The scriptures are preserved.

Here's a link to the Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy:

The CHICAGO STATEMENTS on INERRANCY and HERMENEUTICS

The Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy and the Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics in their entirety with exposition.

defendinginerrancy.com

 

[Athanasius377]

Last I looked there weren't any perfect human authors...anywhere! Last I looked, people wrote books--God may have written the 10 Commandments. Inspiration doesn't quite catch it--poets are "inspired," but they are not necessarily accurate in presenting truth. The Bible presents truth, inspired by God.

Good poll! I hope people vote. Should be interesting!

I would have preferred "God Breathed" as 2 Tim 3:16 states in the ESV but "inspired" is the older english form of the same Greek word θεόπνευστος, or Theopneustos.

 

[ScottA]

God used fallible human authors, but God was the "Editor for Truth" and ensured their words were true.

Do you believe that carried through in the whole process involved to put a Bible in our hands today?

Yes. God's word is His providence alone.

Proverbs 16:9​

A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps.​

 

[Peterlag]

Would you read his grocery list?

Bibliolatry: Worship/knowledge of the book MORE than the author

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Yes... the entire grocery list.

 

[Wick Stick]

I would have preferred "God Breathed" as 2 Tim 3:16 states in the ESV but "inspired" is the older english form of the same Greek word θεόπνευστος, or Theopneustos.

Did you know that is the only place in the Bible that uses that word?

You've got a lot resting on that one word.