Remember Lot

[tomwebster]

We are lights wherever we go. I got pumped alot over the fact that I joined a rugby league team. Look at them, they're a swearing, drinking mob. I was accused of trying to evangelise by joining them. Actually, I was just living life! I'm not playing rugby league for the express purpose of being a witness. I'm playing because that is my passion. For those who say it's worldly, I beg to differ, there was a time when all the league players WERE Christian. They aren't anymore. Could it be that something is wrong with Christianity?!
Lot was just a man, trying to live the way God wanted him to in a region of total depravity. I admire him. The Bible says nothing about him being strong or doing any great exploits, but yet, he remained righteous and stood tall for God in a city that was totally corrupt.
Let's flip the coin. Was Abraham really any better off? Not really. Listen to what the Scripture said about the inhabitants of Canaan just four hundred years later: Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants. Abraham was perhaps not in so bad a region, but it was bad all the same! I get sick of hearing people tell me that rugby league is so vile. I firmly believe that the GREATEST danger to a Christian is from those who profess Christianity.
I've been a little round-about in my explanation. Let me answer this directly now. "Something to consider is that Lot lived among the Sodomites and I don't think he was sent there by God to evangelize." Guess what? If NO ONE will dare to stand up in these areas of darkness, how will those people be saved? Except one dare to walk up to the gates of Hell and command them to open, nothing is going to happen! How will they hear without a preacher? I'm not about to condemn Lot because he lived in Sodom, anymore then I condemn those who work with homosexuals, which is absolutely nil.

gz, you are talking as if you think Lot lived in the time of grace. He didn't, he lived in a time even before the Law was given. God didn't want Abraham to live with the other people of the land, that is why God called Abram (Abraham) out of Ur.

Grace has only been on the table for the last two thousand years, before that there was not grace. And grace will end in the near future and we will enter judgment.

 

[Groundzero]

Is there any scriptural support for your thought?

There is no Scriptural base: I think however, that if we think common sense, which seems to be lacking, that it would be obvious that this sanctification can only continue until that child becomes responsible for his/her own salvation. This is completely off-topic. If you want, start another forum over this subject. But please, I don't really want to get into a long discussion over the sanctification of children in a forum about Lot.

 

[jiggyfly]

There is no Scriptural base: I think however, that if we think common sense, which seems to be lacking, that it would be obvious that this sanctification can only continue until that child becomes responsible for his/her own salvation. This is completely off-topic. If you want, start another forum over this subject. But please, I don't really want to get into a long discussion over the sanctification of children in a forum about Lot.

Not really, no need for a discussion at any depth since there is no scriptural support.

 

[Groundzero]

gz, you are talking as if you think Lot lived in the time of grace. He didn't, he lived in a time even before the Law was given. God didn't want Abraham to live with the other people of the land, that is why God called Abram (Abraham) out of Ur.

Grace has only been on the table for the last two thousand years, before that there was not grace. And grace will end in the near future and we will enter judgment.

At what point did God NOT try and reach humanity? Abraham still had interaction with the people of the land. Every one of has have different callings on our life. Are we going to claim that Lot didn't follow his calling when it is never mentioned in Scripture and we are just humans? God said Lot was righteous. I am going to put up an alternate story for Lot that shows him as that. Not some backslider or unrighteous man that many consider him to be.

 

[Groundzero]

Well, he offered his own daughter to have sex with a mob - Clinton only lied about having sex - maybe Lot was righteous because he wasn't a Democrat?

You obviously choose to ignore the fact that Lot is called righteous in Scripture.

There are three things to consider here:

1. The tradition of the time was to protect your guests with you life. Lot placed everything on the line for his guests, even his life. Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him. No doubt people will contend this. The Scripture I just posted should be sufficient evidence that Lot was ready to place all on the line for his guests. To close the door after him was to leave him with no escape in front of an angry mob. Lot knew what they were like. He was taking an enormous risk, and he even was ready to place his family in jeopardy for it.

2. It never actually happened. Lot perhaps knew that they wouldn't accept the offer because they were that warped, or perhaps that was the only way he could think of to get rid of them. We cannot actually know if he would have actually done what he said he would do. Many times we say things that we never actually mean. Lot was a human, just like you and me.

3. This continues on the previous point. Even if Lot did err in what he said, does that make him unrighteous?! God forbid! We ALL fall, but that doesn't mean it's all over! We seem to be so harsh on Lot just because of something he said, while other great men of God committed even more serious sins.

I think those three points should be sufficient to refute the previous question mark over Lot being righteous.

 

[aspen]

You obviously choose to ignore the fact that Lot is called righteous in Scripture.

There are three things to consider here:

1. The tradition of the time was to protect your guests with you life. Lot placed everything on the line for his guests, even his life. Gen 19:6 And Lot went out at the door unto them, and shut the door after him. No doubt people will contend this. The Scripture I just posted should be sufficient evidence that Lot was ready to place all on the line for his guests. To close the door after him was to leave him with no escape in front of an angry mob. Lot knew what they were like. He was taking an enormous risk, and he even was ready to place his family in jeopardy for it.

2. It never actually happened. Lot perhaps knew that they wouldn't accept the offer because they were that warped, or perhaps that was the only way he could think of to get rid of them. We cannot actually know if he would have actually done what he said he would do. Many times we say things that we never actually mean. Lot was a human, just like you and me.

3. This continues on the previous point. Even if Lot did err in what he said, does that make him unrighteous?! God forbid! We ALL fall, but that doesn't mean it's all over! We seem to be so harsh on Lot just because of something he said, while other great men of God committed even more serious sins.

I think those three points should be sufficient to refute the previous question mark over Lot being righteous.

I have no doubt that Lot was righteous - just like Noah - in comparison to his generation. I certainly would not want to waste time stretching the fabric of morality and logic, trying to justify his character - the guy offered up his daughters to a mob and then let his daughters get him drunk and had sex with them - give me a break!

 

[Groundzero]

I have no doubt that Lot was righteous - just like Noah - in comparison to his generation. I certainly would not want to waste time stretching the fabric of morality and logic, trying to justify his character - the guy offered up his daughters to a mob and then let his daughters get him drunk and had sex with them - give me a break!

Oh really?! As far as I was aware, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, what he thinks is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, if Lot was called righteous, it was because he attained the mark that God had set. Not because he was a little better than those around him.

You have ignored my last point. I said that EVEN if he did err in what he said, does that make him worthless like so many think? NO!!!!! We all have slips of tongue. You voted that Lot is definitely not righteous. I don't know how you can think that way. 2nd Peter makes it clear that Lot was righteous. As I have already stated, nowhere does Scripture condemn Lot.

 

[aspen]

Oh really?! As far as I was aware, God is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, what he thinks is the same yesterday, today, and forever. Therefore, if Lot was called righteous, it was because he attained the mark that God had set. Not because he was a little better than those around him.

You have ignored my last point. I said that EVEN if he did err in what he said, does that make him worthless like so many think? NO!!!!! We all have slips of tongue. You voted that Lot is definitely not righteous. I don't know how you can think that way. 2nd Peter makes it clear that Lot was righteous. As I have already stated, nowhere does Scripture condemn Lot.

I never said Lot was worthless.

Romans 3:10
as it is written, “ THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

 

[Groundzero]

I never said Lot was worthless.

[font="Verdana][size="2"]Romans 3:10
as it is written, “ THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;[/size][/font]

You have said he is unrighteous.

If you wish to take that Scripture literally, what about all these Scriptures?

2Pe_2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds


1Pe_3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

 

[aspen]

You have said he is unrighteous.

If you wish to take that Scripture literally, what about all these Scriptures?

2Pe_2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds


1Pe_3:12 For the eyes of the Lord are over the righteous, and his ears are open unto their prayers: but the face of the Lord is against them that do evil.

1Pe_4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Heb_11:4 By faith Abel offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, by which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts: and by it he being dead yet speaketh.

And I explained why. You on the other hand, are calling Paul a liar when he quotes the OT. Then, you turn around and concede that Lot may have messed up a little bit - we all do it.....

He turned his daughter over to a mob to be raped and he allowed his daughters to get him drunk and have sex with him. If you feel comfortable dismissing that behavior, go ahead. I am resting my case.

 

[veteran]

He turned his daughter over to a mob to be raped and he allowed his daughters to get him drunk and have sex with him. If you feel comfortable dismissing that behavior, go ahead. I am resting my case.

That's a lie. Lot did not turn his daughters over to be raped. It didn't happen if you'd simply read the Scripture.

Nor was Lot responsible for what his two daughters did in getting him drunk to preserve his seed.

By your own words you convict yourself for it shows you have no intention of allowing God's Word to speak, but to serve your own political agenda against The Bible instead.

 

[aspen]

That's a lie. Lot did not turn his daughters over to be raped. It didn't happen if you'd simply read the Scripture.

Nor was Lot responsible for what his two daughters did in getting him drunk to preserve his seed.

By your own words you convict yourself for it shows you have no intention of allowing God's Word to speak, but to serve your own political agenda against The Bible instead.

Oh brother! Maybe Lot should have read the story too - then he would have really known how it was all going to turn out. Keep defending him Veteran!

 

[Groundzero]

Oh brother! Maybe Lot should have read the story too - then he would have really known how it was all going to turn out. Keep defending him Veteran!

Aspen, it's not about defending Lot. He's already finished his course on earth and as far as God is concerned, he was righteous. We know that much from Scripture. What is really being defended here is Scripture. The Scripture states Lot is righteous. Yes, I have some interesting scenarios coming up about Lot. Just haven't had time!

 

[aspen]

Aspen, it's not about defending Lot. He's already finished his course on earth and as far as God is concerned, he was righteous. We know that much from Scripture. What is really being defended here is Scripture. The Scripture states Lot is righteous. Yes, I have some interesting scenarios coming up about Lot. Just haven't had time!

And if the Bible said that he grew wings and flew away from Sodom every night to skin people alive for fun, you would believe it was an attack on scripture if people interpreted it in a less than literal manner. I know the drill.

 

[Groundzero]

And if the Bible said that he grew wings and flew away from Sodom every night to skin people alive for fun, you would believe it was an attack on scripture if people interpreted it in a less than literal manner. I know the drill.

I understand that there are places in the Bible where there are allegories, but I can't see how this applies to Lot! If you want to interpret Scripture however you want, fine. As far as I have studied, nowhere is Lot condemned, but rather praised. Therefore, there must be good in him. Of course, many differ.

 

[aspen]

I understand that there are places in the Bible where there are allegories, but I can't see how this applies to Lot! If you want to interpret Scripture however you want, fine. As far as I have studied, nowhere is Lot condemned, but rather praised. Therefore, there must be good in him. Of course, many differ.

Nope. The story of Lot is not allegory. It is an inspired, cultural story that was passed down orally for centuries until around 500 BC when it was written down by the Hebrews in Babylonian captivity. God chose to tell the story of humanity and our relationship with God through humans and from a human perspective. The message of the Bible is inspired by God, but the words are crafted and written down by humans. No one in the ancient world did word studies on the Torah! Who knows what the author actually meant by using the word righteous to describe Lot? it seems to me (based on Lot's atrocious behavior) that he was calling Lot righteous to highlight how horrific the people of Sodom really were. In any case, the word righteous was never meant to define the entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah or justify or excuse Lot's behavior.

Our Enlightenment rooted obsession with picking apart the language of the Bible was helpful at one time, but it has really distorted our understanding of the big picture in recent years.......

 

[Groundzero]

Nope. The story of Lot is not allegory. It is an inspired, cultural story that was passed down orally for centuries until around 500 BC when it was written down by the Hebrews in Babylonian captivity. God chose to tell the story of humanity and our relationship with God through humans and from a human perspective. The message of the Bible is inspired by God, but the words are crafted and written down by humans. No one in the ancient world did word studies on the Torah! Who knows what the author actually meant by using the word righteous to describe Lot? it seems to me (based on Lot's atrocious behavior) that he was calling Lot righteous to highlight how horrific the people of Sodom really were. In any case, the word righteous was never meant to define the entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah or justify or excuse Lot's behavior.

Our Enlightenment rooted obsession with picking apart the language of the Bible was helpful at one time, but it has really distorted our understanding of the big picture in recent years.......

Rofl. So you mean to tell me, that the Book of Second Peter was written in 400 BC!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You mean to tell me, that Jesus talked about the days of Lot, and it was all based on some oral repetition down the centuries of a man who was unrighteous!? I think I have already stated, YOUR righteousness is not decided by comparing you to others!!!!! God alone decides if you are righteous based on you, not those around you! I'd like to see the base for you thinking that righteous doesn't actually mean righteous! I'm sure that when Peter wrote that his soul was righteous and this man was righteous, he MEANT EVERY BIT OF IT!


You obviously are one of those people who like to make excuses for what you don't like in the Bible, including this discussion about Lot. I can tell you right now, that if we can explain words in the Bible as easily as you did, such as, 'who knows what the author actually meant by righteous?', WHAT CAN WE TRUST IN THE BIBLE?! NOTHING!


For Your Information: People have, even before the Enlightenment, ripped Lot down because of his 'scandalous behaviour.' Get real! The worst Lot did was have a slip of tongue in the heat of a moment! Maybe you would do alot better in his shoes!


Now a question about Lot for everyone: Was Lot fearful and a wimp as so many say he was? (before we go rattling off about Zoar and the mountains, have a look at geography. It might be informative

)

 

[veteran]

Nope. The story of Lot is not allegory. It is an inspired, cultural story that was passed down orally for centuries until around 500 BC when it was written down by the Hebrews in Babylonian captivity. God chose to tell the story of humanity and our relationship with God through humans and from a human perspective. The message of the Bible is inspired by God, but the words are crafted and written down by humans. No one in the ancient world did word studies on the Torah! Who knows what the author actually meant by using the word righteous to describe Lot? it seems to me (based on Lot's atrocious behavior) that he was calling Lot righteous to highlight how horrific the people of Sodom really were. In any case, the word righteous was never meant to define the entire story of Sodom and Gomorrah or justify or excuse Lot's behavior.

Our Enlightenment rooted obsession with picking apart the language of the Bible was helpful at one time, but it has really distorted our understanding of the big picture in recent years.......

Are you a homosexual aspen? Do you support sodomy?

 

[aspen]

Are you a homosexual aspen? Do you support sodomy?

I am not homosexual. Are you a homosexual? I have been married to one person for16 years after dating for 4 years.

I have stated many times that I believe homosexuality is a sin, but I do not think it was the primary sin of Sodom. The primary sin was sodomy - refusing hospitality.

 

[Insight]

Hello,

The difficulty with this subject is whether one takes a macro or micro view of Lot’s life. If we took a telescope and zoomed in on our lives, especially on the awful bits, how would we be viewed by the Spirit? However, should the Spirit decide to reveal those events that present us in a more favourable light? Well, you get the picture.

Did God bless Lot with a similar wealth to Abraham? We must say yes! In many ways, Abraham takes the part of the Father who was willing to sacrifice all for the welfare of Lot (us).

Aptly Lot's name means "veiled or covered", my view is it was given because he enjoyed the protection of Abram (my opinion) for most, if not all his life. And yes, he (we) made many mistakes, especially moving to Sodom, a vile city! (See Rom.11:7-8, 25; 2 Cor. 3:15,16)

Again, it is my view that Lot represents those in life who are guided by others, maybe men like yourselves have those who look up to you and see you as examples? But you see them as often failing when left to their own resources? Lot to me speaks of a man whose spiritual vision was “veiled” though he consciously understood what was right; his chosen circumstances often work against him to his hurt. It is also proved that Lot lacked the initiative that Abraham possessed, but again in our own lives we see, or, are these type of people. We can also prove that he struggled to manage his servants and asserting his authority did not come naturally, as it did Abraham.

Ultimately, if we are not able to accept the macro view of Lots’ life, as being righteous, I am left wondering how much further the Father should zoom out the telescope on my life?

“Let everyone answer in their own heart”

Insight