Remit and Retain?

[VictoryinJesus]

Struggling with (John 20: 21-23)

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

​After reading John 20 countless times, it wasn't until yesterday that this passage stopped me from reading any further. It was the words remit and retain.

​Retain: to continue to hold; to keep in possession; not to lose, or dismiss; to keep in paid, to restrain; to prevent.
​Remit: to send back; to surrender; to resign; to restore; to send off or away; to forgive; to pardon; to remove; to loose; to release

Was this a command to the twelve disciples only? The verse seems to be connected to what the Lord told Peter in Matthew 16 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

But then there is (Matthew 18: 15-20) that says: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

 

[lforrest]

I would say it does apply today. One doesn't go around forgiving others for various unspecified sins willy-nilly. There should always be an effort on the part of the offender to be forgiven as it shows repentance.

Matthew 6:14–15 warns against failing to forgive such a person. God hates hypocrites, and that is what we are if we should fail to offer the forgiveness we have been given.

I believe the key is repentance, and perhaps it is left to the Church to decide if repentance is genuine or not.

 

[Stranger]

Struggling with (John 20: 21-23)

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

​After reading John 20 countless times, it wasn't until yesterday that this passage stopped me from reading any further. It was the words remit and retain.

​Retain: to continue to hold; to keep in possession; not to lose, or dismiss; to keep in paid, to restrain; to prevent.
​Remit: to send back; to surrender; to resign; to restore; to send off or away; to forgive; to pardon; to remove; to loose; to release

Was this a command to the twelve disciples only? The verse seems to be connected to what the Lord told Peter in Matthew 16 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

But then there is (Matthew 18: 15-20) that says: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

This authority is given by Christ to the Church. The Church seldom uses it today because they are so apostate.

Paul tells us in (1Cor. 5:1) that the Church there had a man who was having relations with his fathers wife, and yet the leaders of the Church were doing nothing. Paul warned them that they need to excommunicate this one from the Church. And in so doing, they were turning this one over to Satan, because he was now outside the covering of the Church. (1Cor.5:4-5) " In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

When the believer is part of a local church, that church serves as his covering from the evil spirit world. But if the believer blatantly goes off into sin and refuses to repent, then the church is to set him outside and not allow him in, therefore turning him over to Satan. Because they no longer serve as his covering. (1Cor. 5:12-13) " For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

This concerns not your salvation as to going to heaven. But it affects your relationship with God and other believers. This man was turned away from the fellowship, and in so doing was turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved. The result was that he repented and Paul exhorted the believers to receive him back into fellowship. (2 Cor. 6-7) " Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. "

Just as Paul said, (2Cor.2:10), "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ."

Christ gives this authority to the Church. It is real, and God honors it when it is exercised. It is serious. But today....most churches are not serious.

Stranger

 

[VictoryinJesus]

This authority is given by Christ to the Church. The Church seldom uses it today because they are so apostate.

Paul tells us in (1Cor. 5:1) that the Church there had a man who was having relations with his fathers wife, and yet the leaders of the Church were doing nothing. Paul warned them that they need to excommunicate this one from the Church. And in so doing, they were turning this one over to Satan, because he was now outside the covering of the Church. (1Cor.5:4-5) " In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

When the believer is part of a local church, that church serves as his covering from the evil spirit world. But if the believer blatantly goes off into sin and refuses to repent, then the church is to set him outside and not allow him in, therefore turning him over to Satan. Because they no longer serve as his covering. (1Cor. 5:12-13) " For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person."

This concerns not your salvation as to going to heaven. But it affects your relationship with God and other believers. This man was turned away from the fellowship, and in so doing was turned over to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved. The result was that he repented and Paul exhorted the believers to receive him back into fellowship. (2 Cor. 6-7) " Sufficient to such a man is this punishment, which was inflicted of many. So that contrariwise ye ought rather to forgive him, and comfort him, lest perhaps such a one should be swallowed up with overmuch sorrow. "

Just as Paul said, (2Cor.2:10), "To whom ye forgive any thing, I forgive also: for if I forgave any thing, to whom I forgave it, for your sakes forgave I it in the person of Christ."

Christ gives this authority to the Church. It is real, and God honors it when it is exercised. It is serious. But today....most churches are not serious.

Stranger

Seriousness understood.

I am not under the protection of a local church. I have been reclusive my entire life. My long list of phobias go back to childhood. Whenever I force myself to go to church I am able to remain in the service only for a short time before a panic attacks sends me out the nearest exit. Finally I stopped forcing the constant battle, which was exhausting, and surrendered to the fact that maybe God's will is for me to not be in a church building. I have avoided the church for most of my life. No need to tell me I am wrong and it is God's will for me to be involved in a local church. I am praying for Him to overcome this bondage of fear because I can't do it.

Thank you for including other scripture supportive of John 20.

 

[Stranger]

Seriousness understood.

I am not under the protection of a local church. I have been reclusive my entire life. My long list of phobias go back to childhood. Whenever I force myself to go to church I am able to remain in the service only for a short time before a panic attacks sends me out the nearest exit. Finally I stopped forcing the constant battle, which was exhausting, and surrendered to the fact that maybe God's will is for me to not be in a church building. I have avoided the church for most of my life. No need to tell me I am wrong and it is God's will for me to be involved in a local church. I am praying for Him to overcome this bondage of fear because I can't do it.

Thank you for including other scripture supportive of John 20.

Your quite welcome. I would think you could talk to a pastor of a church and tell him you wanted to join the church but that you have these problems. I'm sure he and others would understand. It is better to go of course, but if you can't, you can still come under the covering of the Pastor and leadership of the Church. They and the members could be praying for you, and if you care to, receive an occasional visit from them. Just a thought.

Stranger

 

[tom55]

Struggling with (John 20: 21-23)

"Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained."

​After reading John 20 countless times, it wasn't until yesterday that this passage stopped me from reading any further. It was the words remit and retain.

​Retain: to continue to hold; to keep in possession; not to lose, or dismiss; to keep in paid, to restrain; to prevent.
​Remit: to send back; to surrender; to resign; to restore; to send off or away; to forgive; to pardon; to remove; to loose; to release

Was this a command to the twelve disciples only? The verse seems to be connected to what the Lord told Peter in Matthew 16 "And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

But then there is (Matthew 18: 15-20) that says: "Moreover if thy brother shall trespass against thee, go and tell him his fault between thee and him alone: if he shall hear thee, thou hast gained thy brother. But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican. Verily I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven. For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."

The command was NOT for The Twelve only. Jesus taught the Twelve the Truth and he conveyed special gifts upon them. One of them, as you pointed out, the forgiveness of sins. They were instructed to go and teach others what they were taught. They laid hands on their successors and transferred their gifts to them (apostolic succession): All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation.

Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.

To say that Christ did not confer a true power to forgive sin is to take away the whole ceremony and takes away the real meaning or Christ words.

Where in scripture does it say that the Apostles were the only ones with this gift and they could not convey it to their successors?

 

[VictoryinJesus]

tom55, The question of "was John 20: 21-23 to the twelve disciples only or to the church" was my question, not an implication that scripture says it was for the twelve only. Thank you for your comments and clarity. I understand your defense of the truth.

 

[tom55]

tom55, The question of "was John 20: 21-23 to the twelve disciples only or to the church" was my question, not an implication that scripture says it was for the twelve only. Thank you for your comments and clarity. I understand your defense of the truth.

With all do respect here is the question you presented: Was this a command to the twelve disciples only?

You DID NOT ask: "was John 20: 21-23 to the twelve disciples only or to the church"

 

[VictoryinJesus]

tom55, I won't try to justify my question or lack of understanding before you. Thank you for caring enough to set me straight. There are those that are just beginning to study scripture and need milk instead of meat, those ready for meat, and those that already have it all figured out and need no help.

 

[tom55]

tom55, I won't try to justify my question or lack of understanding before you. Thank you for caring enough to set me straight. There are those that are just beginning to study scripture and need milk instead of meat, and those that already have it all figured out and need no help.

With all do respect. There is no "lack of understanding".

You asked:

Was this a command to the twelve disciples only? You DID NOT ask "was John 20: 21-23 to the twelve disciples only or to the church"

I understand the ORIGINAL question completely.

If you want to change your question then do it. Don't accuse me of a lack of understanding. Take some responsibility!!

My answer was based on YOUR SPECIFIC question. Not the alternative question you suggested one day later.

My answer still stands: The command was NOT for The Twelve only.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Ok. I will take responsibility. Obviously I did not ask the right question. I thought including Matthew 18: 15- 20 was enough. Error on my part. Another error on my part: I wrote " my question and lack of understanding"... there is no "your lack of understanding" so obviously I have a writing problem. I have been struggling over whether or not posting on a forum is serving any real purpose while people are hurting, or if this just a distraction and an opportunity for me to feel good and show how smart I am. Now I know the answer. It is vanity. I won't be back.

 

[Angelina]

I hope you don't go VictoryinJesus. It's really good to have you here, bless ya!

 

[mjrhealth]

Hi Victory In Jesus, just remember that your victory is in Christ, not in knowledge not in wisdom not in works, its all in Him. Go find Him He is just waiting for those who will call upon Him so few will give Him there time to seek Him. If you call He will answer Like the story of the man who asks for a loaf of bread from His neighbor. Ask Him be patient would love to hear from You.

In all His most abundant and amazing Love..

The end is coming, the darkness will only grow thicker till His light shines and blows it all away.

 

[epostle1]

Remit/Retain \ Binding and Loosing​

​

Binding and loosing is a rabbinical term according to the Jewish Encyclopedia. The power of binding and loosing was always claimed by the Pharisees... the Pharisees, "became the administrators of all public affairs so as to be empowered to banish and readmit whom they pleased, as well as to loose and to bind."

In imparting to his apostles his own power to forgive sins, the Lord also gives them the authority to reconcile sinners with the Church. This ecclesial dimension of their task is expressed most notably in Christ’s solemn words to Simon Peter: "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." The office of binding and loosing which was given to Peter was also assigned to the college of the apostles united to its head. (CCC 1444)
The words bind and loose mean: Whomever you exclude from your communion, will be excluded from communion with God; whomever you receive anew into your communion, God will welcome back into his. Reconciliation with the Church is inseparable from reconciliation with God.

Matt. 16:19 - whatever Peter binds or looses on earth is bound or loosed in heaven / when the Prime Minister to the King opens, no one shuts. This "binding and loosing" authority allows the keeper of the keys to establish "halakah," or rules of conduct for the members of the kingdom he serves.

Matt. 23:2-4 - the "binding and loosing" terminology used by Jesus was understood by the Jewish people. For example, Jesus said that the Pharisees "bind" heavy burdens but won't move ("loose") them with their fingers. Peter and the apostles have the new binding and loosing authority over the Church of the New Covenant.