Revelatin and Truth

[Justin Mangonel]

I believe that,

"All truth is given through revelation from God."

And,

"Outside God given revelation there is no truth."

The mistake that many make is that they believe that they can
somehow come to knowledge of the truth independent of God. Like the
Bible is some vast puzzle they just need to fit together correctly. The more
intellectual they are (or believe themselves to be) the more prone they are to this type of hubris. I see this
type of thinking in both the religious and secular world where people believe that they can arrive
at truth through their intellect. Sometimes people take credit for arriving at truth themselves when it was, in fact, reveled to them
from God (again this applies to both religious and secular circles)

Life through revelation is how we were intended to live but mankind chose to
live by the knowledge of good and evil. Unfortunately even some Christians are
unwittingly living by the forbidden fruit and calling it God.

I really don’t like intellectual Christianity…I think it is killing our
souls and driving away those who need salvation

Why does this matter? It is because many are basically preaching
another gospel when we intellectualize the words of Jesus to a point where they
have little to do with the demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit shown
through the apostle. I think that most people would agree that the church of
today is not the church of the first century. I don't think this is
maturity either but rather a collective insecurity brought on by fear because
we have drifted so far away from our Father.

People pontificate about their doctrinal stances but I wonder how many have
seen a miracle let along performed one in recent memory?

Blessings,

Justin

 

[williemac]

The forbidden tree was not about mere knowledge. It was about knowledge through experience. I may know about pregnancy, but can never really know what it is like to give birth, being a man. In the same way, the tree gave them the knowledge of good and evil through an act of disobedience. This awakened the conscience.

Therefore, it is not the intention of God to deny us the aquisition of knowledge in general. This was not the point. However, revelation of truth does indeed come from God. And furthermore, it is in our minds that we receive this revelation and understanding. So it is not even possible to seperate the intellect from our understanding of truth. The intellect is involved. And it is certainly involved in the teaching and learning of truth, something that God has put in place within our fellowship.

Paul said that all scxripture is inspired of God and is profitable for teaching (doctrine), reproof, correction, and instruction in righteousness (2Tim.3:16). This indicates that certain revelation of truth came to those who are the authors of scripture. This does not mean that we in reading scripture need the exact same anointing that they had when writing it. We have a brain. However, there are certainly many truths that are spiritual and require the Holy Spirit to anoint us with the understanding.

All this to say that this is not a black and white all or nothing type of subject. In some cases it is enough that the initial revelation came from God when the scripture was written. The gospel is an example. The message is out there. It is clear enough. God can speak to sinners through His word. The deeper truths are another thing.

As far as saying that the church of today is not the same as in the first century...that is over simplified in my opinion. The fact is, the century we are in has its own uniqueness and flavor. The church had better not be the same. Paul said he was all things to all people. There is room for different approaches with different cultures. Fortunately, the modern church has not altered the essential truths. Other truths are debated, but hey, this is not new. Timothy was called to correct doctrinal error. Some things have not changed. Case in point, the Holy Spirit is still here and dwelling in millions of people. He has not left the church.

I don't think that God has been blind sided by the things that time has changed. Jesus promised that He would build His church. That is not our job. We had better be careful what we criticize, lest we unwittingly point the finger at our Lord.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't think that God has been blind sided by the things that time has changed. Jesus promised that He would build His church. That is not our job. We had better be careful what we criticize, lest we unwittingly point the finger at our Lord.

That seems pretty passive to me. Sanctification is actually a lot of work.

I think the OP's point was that Christians with an abundance of head knowledge without requisite heart knowledge tend towards self-righteousness, which is a stench in GOD's nostrils. Justin, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

It is interesting the way that you divide the knowledge of good and evil
from the experience of good and evil. I will have to think about
that. However, my initial thought is that is too fine a
distinction. Are you saying that God gives us the knowledge of good and
evil when it was forbidden from us in the first place? I think not.
Or do we somehow obtain it independent of sin now days.

I am quite sure, though, that the church has been altered in almost all
essential truths and is very far removed from the church of the first
century. It is just that we have difficulty seeing the forest for the
trees. Take for example the doctrine of salvation by faith. The
major part of what is termed Christianity (the Catholic Church) believes in salvation
through works. This is definitely not the teaching of the New Testament.
Vast swathes of Christianity do not believe in baptism by immersion, another
departure from the original teachings. Still others do not believe in the
in filling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues.
A rejection of an essential process in our maturity in Christ. Finally,
almost all normative Christianity believes that God is somehow a
trinity...something that would have been a stoning offence in Christ's
time.

These things I have mentioned are deceptions that have been arrived at by
men who thought themselves reasonable and godly. This is why I say that
it is through revelation that we must live because left to our own devices we
will deviate from God’s path and end up someplace very different than where He
intended.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Justin Mangonel

I think the two go together , and that is part of the design

The gospel can be utterly simple for explaining salvation

Yet the bible is also utterly complex , and theologically deep for the scholar

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Dear W,

I am quite sure, though, that the church has been altered in almost all essential truths and is very far removed from the church of the first century. It is just that we have difficulty seeing the forest for the trees. Take for example the doctrine of salvation by faith. The major part of what is termed Christianity (the Catholic Church) believes in salvation through works. This is definitely not the teaching of the New Testament. Vast swathes of Christianity do not believe in baptism by immersion, another departure from the original teachings. Still others do not believe in the in filling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues. A rejection of an essential process in our maturity in Christ. Finally, almost all normative Christianity believes that God is somehow a trinity...something that would have been a stoning offence in Christ's time.

These things I have mentioned are deceptions that have been arrived at by men who thought themselves reasonable and godly. This is why I say that it is through revelation that we must live because left to our own devices we will deviate from God’s path and end up someplace very different than where He
intended.

Blessings,

Justin

Hi Justin,

Your response is excellent. I do take one exception, that was about works ("salvation through works. This is definitely not the teaching of the New Testament.") There are two types of 'works' mentioned in the New Testament. There is the 'works of law' and also 'the works of faith'. We are justified by our 'works of faith' just as Abraham was.

Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jas 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jas 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jas 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Again, Abraham did not obtain righteousness by works of law but by works of faith. This is why he is the father of all who have this type of faith.

This has been covered in:
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/17653-hermeneutics-101-works-of-law-vs-works-of-grace/

I am in total agreement with the rest of what you posted above.

Blessings

 

[williemac]

That seems pretty passive to me. Sanctification is actually a lot of work.

I think the OP's point was that Christians with an abundance of head knowledge without requisite heart knowledge tend towards self-righteousness, which is a stench in GOD's nostrils. Justin, please correct me if I'm wrong.

Thank you for pointing that out. I understand the observation you are making concerning the op, and have a passion for challenging the doctrinal errors mentioned in reply#4. However, I was merely touching on one aspect concerning how we receive truth. Asfar as sanctification goes,I don'tknow why you mentioned it. I was not referring to that subject , myself.

Justin: re:#4

The self righteousness problem is not so much rooted from a recent or even old inability to get the truth from scripture, in my opinion. It has been around from the beginning, so it is not unique to any era of the church.

I think one sees what he wants to see a lot of the time, and ignors the obvious in the process. This is a problem that comes about from the motive of one's heart. God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. There is a repentance required for salvation. Contrary to popular belief, the repentance required is not from sin, but from pride and self exaltation concerning the religious, and from unbelief concerning all.

But we can certainly make a case for the revelation required in a self righteous person, that he is incapable of attaining righteousness or justification through his own resources or effort. To that end, we do not preach grace to such a person. We preach the law, which obviously has not yet accomplished its goal of conviction in such a person. People tend to lower the standard of the law in order to feel that they can reach it. However, I still suspect that the root of this is in the motive of the heart


Blessings, Howie

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear R,


Well said and I agree about works arising out of faith. We need to complete our faith but our works. Faith without works is like a seed laying dorment in the ground...it has the potential to bring forth life but unless springs forth and grows nothing useful happens.

Dear W,

Also well said. Of course I agree with you that it all boils down to the condition of our heart towards God. However, my point is that all truth in all areas can only come through revelation of the Spirit. This is fundimental to our understanding of how scripture is to be understood and interpreted. I would say also that we see with our hearts and the condition of our hearts towards God, who is truth, determines what can be revealed to us.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[williemac]

Dear R,


Well said and I agree about works arising out of faith. We need to complete our faith but our works. Faith without works is like a seed laying dorment in the ground...it has the potential to bring forth life but unless springs forth and grows nothing useful happens.

Dear W,

Also well said. Of course I agree with you that it all boils down to the condition of our heart towards God. However, my point is that all truth in all areas can only come through revelation of the Spirit. This is fundimental to our understanding of how scripture is to be understood and interpreted. I would say also that we see with our hearts and the condition of our hearts towards God, who is truth, determines what can be revealed to us.

Blessings,

Justin

Thank you. Yes, God looks at the heart. But since we were instructed to go our into all the world, and since we are Ambassedors for Christ as though God is pleading through us to the world to be reconciled (2C0r.5:19), the revelation of the gospel is something that anyone can receive and understand. But it is ultimatley what is in their heart that wil determine their response.
The Holy Spirit will convict the world of sin, as Jesus said. That is the initial revelation. And I believe it is not limited to a select few, but to those who have ears to hear. (pretty much most people that I have ever known). I don't know of many people,who don't know they are sinners.
But even on this site we cn see those who still feel they are obligated to help Jesus with the salvation through thier works. Self righteousness will deny the revelation given through the word. The works that come out of faith are natural. They are called fruit, because a fruit tree automatically produces fruit, unless this is opposed by the tree (parable of the sower).
There are those who are using the James reference to promote works for salvation, as we know. These works are works without faith, not from faith. They don't realize that the proper works are coming from a place of knowing one has life, having received it by faith, not from a place of woking to assure their life .Where's the faith in that? Blessings, Howie

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear W,

Works natural proceed out of true faith. Revelation naturally proceeds out of true relationship. Many have a form of godliness but lack and sometimes even deny the power thereof. This power is the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is simply the Spirit of our Father and not the third person of the trinity. What we need to do, as a people, is to go back to the beginning and start living as God intended and as the last Adam lived. People are generally blind not because they cannot see but because they will not see.

Blessings,

Justin

 

[mjrhealth]

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

Cant get it from reading the bible, nor going to church, bible college cds, books, tapes records. man, videos. only from God alone do we get revelation, but than if you never ask Him how will you ever know.

In All His Love

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

But even on this site we cn see those who still feel they are obligated to help Jesus with the salvation through thier works. Self righteousness will deny the revelation given through the word. The works that come out of faith are natural. They are called fruit, because a fruit tree automatically produces fruit, unless this is opposed by the tree (parable of the sower).
There are those who are using the James reference to promote works for salvation, as we know. These works are works without faith, not from faith. They don't realize that the proper works are coming from a place of knowing one has life, having received it by faith, not from a place of woking to assure their life .Where's the faith in that? Blessings, Howie

Except ye abide in the vine ye cannot bear fruit. The works of faith are putting to death the old man so that we do abide and do bear fruit. We are active participants in that work. That is our sanctification.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear All,

We know from scripture that works can justify no one. However, if we are saved that salvation will naturally be evidenced by works that flow from our faith in Christ Jesus. Therefore, our works do not play a part in our salvation but merely indicate that we are saved.

Blessings,

Justin.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Dear All,

We know from scripture that works can justify no one. However, if we are saved that salvation will naturally be evidenced by works that flow from our faith in Christ Jesus. Therefore, our works do not play a part in our salvation but merely indicate that we are saved.

Blessings,

Justin.

That seems to contradict the saying that faith without works is a dead faith unable to bring life or salvation.

 

[Justin Mangonel]

Dear C,

No, no really. Faith without works is non-existant...meaning if there are not works that flow from your salvation you cannot say that you are saved. Works to don save your but they are evidence that you have been changed through salvation.

Blessings,

Justin