1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Revelation 12: 1-12 is parenthetical and esoteric

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by tomwebster, Dec 2, 2008.

  1. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

    Messages:
    2,041
    Likes Received:
    107
    Revelation 12: 1-12 is parenthetical and esoteric, meaning it took place earlier and is an inner view of what took place. This all has to do with the structure in Scripture, particularly here in Revelation. Some might not understand this, just put it on the shelf for a while. Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great G3173 wonder G4592 in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: G3173μέγαςmegasmeg'-asIncluding the prolonged forms, femine μεγάλη megalē, plural μέγάλοι megaloi, etc.; compare also G3176, G3187], big (literally or figuratively, in a very wide application): - (+ fear) exceedingly, great (-est), high, large, loud, mighty, + (be) sore (afraid), strong, X to years.G4592σημεῖον, sēmeionNeuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder G4592 in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. This " war in heaven" was fought back in the first earth age, it is not yet to be fought. It happened all ready.Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. These twelve verses happen in heaven and is the fourth vision "in heaven."Rev 12: 13 -13: 18 is the results "on earth" of the "war in heaven." If you superimpose 12: 1-12 over 12:13 - 13: 18. You will see how the match. The same thing is true throughout Revelation (see your Companion Bible "structure of the book as a whole" pg 1883)Pastor Murray talked about "sēmeion" in one of the last PO's, but he stopped "sēmeion" too soon.
     
  2. Wayne Murray

    Wayne Murray New Member

    Messages:
    183
    Likes Received:
    0
    Hey Tom,When did the war in heaven end, is it written? Is war in heaven spiritual in nature? The repeating of the word “and” at the start of consecutive paragraphs is the figure of speech called Polysyndeton. Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end. Such an example is Revelation chapter twelve where there are (16) “ands” with one exception in verse twelve.Rev.12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: wonder G4592 semeion (say-mi'-on) Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.a woman G1135 gune (goo-nay') Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.(BM) pg.98 TWELVE GOVERNMENTAL PERFECTIONA great sign seen in heaven, a wife brilliantly clothed who stands above sublunary things, with a crown of 12 sparkling gems. Our tabernacle was spiritual and the heavens a curtain.Psa.104:1-2 Bless the LORD, O my soul. O LORD my God, Thou art very great; Thou art clothed with honour and majesty. 2 Who coverest Thyself with light as with a garment: Who stretchest out the heavens like a curtain: We see in the sign Virgo the virgin a grand representation of God’s wife spiritual Israel. Joseph’s dream,Gen.37:9-10 And he dreamed yet another dream, and told it his brethren, and said, Behold, I have dreamed a dream more; and, behold, the sun and the moon and the eleven stars made obeisance to me. 10 And he told it to his father, and to his brethren: and his father rebuked him, and said unto him, What is this dream that thou hast dreamed? Shall I and thy mother and thy brethren indeed come to bow down ourselves to thee to the earth?Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end.Rev.12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.pained G928 basanizo (bas-an-id'-zo) From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.G931 basanos (bas'-an-os) Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.Deut.32:31 For their rock is not as our Rock, even our enemies themselves being judges. Spiritual seduction by Lucifer “the morning star”, or the king of Tyrus “a rock or stone”, by his merchandise and traffic of deceit. Spiritual Israel marked by a touchstone and the labor pangs of a new age.The LORD speaking of the king of Tyrus,Ezek.28:16-18 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. merchandise, traffic H7404 rekullah (rek-ool-law') Feminine passive participle of H7402; trade (as peddled): - merchandise, traffic. Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end.Rev.12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. wonder G4592 semeionred G4450 purrhos (poor-hros') From G4442; fire like, that is, (specifically) flame colored: - red.G4442 pur (poor) A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.Deut.32:33 Their wine is the poison of dragons, and the cruel venom of asps.poison H2534 chemah (khay-maw') From H3179; heat; figuratively anger, poison (from its fever): - anger, bottles, hot displeasure, furious (-ly, -ry), heat, indignation, poison, rage, wrath (-ful). See H2529.H3179 yacham (yaw-kham') A primitive root; Probably to be hot; figuratively to conceive: - get heat, be hot, conceive, be warm.Another great sign seen in heaven, signs of universality, 7 heads (dominions) and 10 horns (powers).(BM) pg.80 SEVEN COMPLETENESS-SPIRITUAL-PERFECTION(BM) pg.91 TEN LAW AND RESPONSIBILITY (ORDINAL PERFECTION)God knew what Lucifer said in his heart,Isa.14:13-14 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of GOD: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the MOST HIGH. Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end.Rev.12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.The dragon’s tail of close followers, drag in a net of deceit, 1/3 of the sons of God, and did cast them to the earth.Here we have come to a “cross” road, so to speak. God overthrows the dragon, katabole in the Greek but translated “foundation”.The LORD speaking,Jer.4:23-27 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light. 24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly. 25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled. 26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the LORD, and by His fierce anger. 27 For thus hath the LORD said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end. Gen.1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. Yet will I not make a full end: and the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, the birth of a new age.Virgo the virgin now represents the promised SEED of the woman through the womb, Jesus Christ.The dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.The LORD speaking of the king of Tyrus,Ezek.28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Gen.3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat. beguiled H5377 nasha (naw-shaw') A primitive root; to lead astray, that is, (mentally) to delude, or (morally) to seduce: - beguile, deceive, X greatly, X utterly.Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end.Rev.12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. Eph.1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times He might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in Him:I Cor.15:22-28 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For He hath put all things under His feet. But when He saith all things are put under Him, it is manifest that He is excepted, Which did put all things under Him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto Him, then shall the Son also Himself be subject unto Him that put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.
     
  3. tomwebster

    tomwebster New Member

    Messages:
    2,041
    Likes Received:
    107
    QUOTE (Wayne Murray @ Dec 25 2008, 11:45 AM)
    Hey Tom,When did the war in heaven end, is it written? Is war in heaven spiritual in nature?
    The war was fought at the end of the First Earth age; Satan was kicked off of the mercy seat. He has been going to and fro ever since.QUOTE
    The repeating of the word “and” at the start of consecutive paragraphs is the figure of speech called Polysyndeton. Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end. Such an example is Revelation chapter twelve where there are (16) “ands” with one exception in verse twelve.Rev.12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: wonder G4592 semeion (say-mi'-on) Neuter of a presumed derivative of the base of G4591; an indication, especially ceremonially or supernaturally: - miracle, sign, token, wonder.a woman G1135 gune (goo-nay') Probably from the base of G1096; a woman; specifically a wife: - wife, woman.(BM) pg.98 TWELVE GOVERNMENTAL PERFECTIONA great sign seen in heaven, a wife brilliantly clothed who stands above sublunary things, with a crown of 12 sparkling gems. Our tabernacle was spiritual and the heavens a curtain.…Rev.12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.pained G928 basanizo (bas-an-id'-zo) From G931; to torture: - pain, toil, torment, toss, vex.G931 basanos (bas'-an-os) Perhaps remotely from the same as G939 (through the notion of going to the bottom); a touch stone, that is, (by analogy) torture: - torment.…Rev.12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. wonder G4592 semeionred G4450 purrhos (poor-hros') From G4442; fire like, that is, (specifically) flame colored: - red.G4442 pur (poor) A primary word; “fire” (literally or figuratively, specifically lightning): - fiery, fire.…Rev.12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.The dragon’s tail of close followers, drag in a net of deceit, 1/3 of the sons of God, and did cast them to the earth.…Each paragraph of a Polysyndeton is independent, essential, and emphatic, without any culmination at the end.Rev.12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to His throne. …
    You might want to look at the structure of Rev 12 in your Companion Bible, if you have one, and see that structure goes from Rev 12: 1 through 12, and the word you pointed out, " G4592 semeion" extend for all 12 verses. These verses are "parenthetical and esoteric, meaning it took place earlier and is an inner view of what took place." in the earlier.
     
Loading...