Revelation 12 walk through

[Douggg]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

 

[TribulationSigns]

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

My response to Douggg's erroneous interpreation will be lengthy, so it will be divided into several posts due to the size of the posts.

(Part One - Response to Revelation 12:1-4)

First, in verse one, the woman in Revelation 12 symbolizes the CONGREGATION OF GOD, COVENANT ISRAEL, which nation Israel represented in the Old Testament before the Cross and the Church represented in the New Testament after the Cross. The symbolism in Revelation 12 is of what took place with her both before Messiah came, and then after His ascension to the Throne after the Cross. The heaven here symbolizes the Kingdom of Heaven where the congregation dwells. Selah!

The verse two was talking about the Covenant Israel gave birth to our Lord and Saviour. He is the "SEED" of this woman who was prophesied to come from the very beginning in Genesis 3:15, was the prophecy established! Christ is that Seed of the woman (not nation Israel, but COVENANT ISRAEL), prophesied from teh beginning to bruise the head of Satan that Old Serpent. So Christ had to come forth from teh congregation Israel, as the seed of this woman! God NEVER said that the woman in the beginning is National Israel. She is covenant Israel that represents ALL ELECT from old and new testament that Christ came to save. Selah! The nation of Israel in the Old Testament as a kingdom representative of God's Kingdom was only a representation of that woman at that time!

When it speaks of her "travailing in birth", it is talking about the pains that the congregation was going through at the time before Christ was born. Israel was in a state of trouble. Her paths were crooked (meaning that they weren't taking the straight and narrow), and the prophets and priests were all gone out of the way. We read that the Kingdom of heaven suffered violence until John the Baptist and the violent take it by force (Matt. 11:12). John prophesied of making the crooked straight and prepared the way for the Lord. This was a time of great Apostasy and trouble in Israel and they pained to be delivered (Jeremiah 4:31). This Child's birth is the Only thing that could deliver her so that her joy could be fulfilled.

Selah!

The Dragon in verse three, meaning a serpent of sight (as if something to gaze or wonder after) is symbolic of Satan (verse 9 confirms this). I am not going into details on the meaning of his heads, horns, and crowns as I have explained before many times. He is adversarial spirit that works through men who attack Christ and His Saints.

Satan's tail in verse four is used as a synonym for false prophets who come to hurt and deceive the Children of God. The tail is the DECEPTION from the head. It is what follows the authority of the head and does it bidding. The symbolism of the tail is those under the authority of Satan who do his bidding. For example, they follow the authorty of the head. For example, take a look at Revelation chapter 9 where it speaks about the bottomless pit being opened and the plague of locusts that had "tails" like scorpions coming forth:

Revelation 9:10

• "And had TAILS like unto SCORPIONS, and there were stings in their tails: and their POWER was to hurt men five months."

This is symbolic language to indicate that they are the emissaries of Satan. The tail to "signify" they are under the Authority of the serpent or scorpion. Satan is symbolized in scripture as the scorpion and the Serpent, and likewise those who are of satan. Again, note later on in that same chapter of Revelation we read of the horsemen who had been bound, and were loosed from Euphrates:

Revelation 9:19

• "for their POWER is in their mouth, and in their TAILS: for their TAILS were like unto SERPENTS, and had heads, and with them they do hurt."

Again, we see the symbolism of power of the tail to hurt people, this time, not as of a scorpion, but as a serpent. You see they "both" represent the people who come under the power and authority of Satan. Both the Scorpion and the Serpent are symbolic of Satan. The servants of Satan come with his power to hurt, and that's the symbolism of the tail of the Dragon casting down the stars (messengers) of the Kingdom of heaven. Satan works out his power to Hurt men through his false prophets under his authority as the head. They are the tail.

In Revelation 12 the illustration is that Satan was attacking and bringing down the Congregation of Israel with great violence and warfare, casting Israel's Messengers down. This is what is recorded in:

Matthew 11:12

• "and from the days of John the Baptist until now, the Kingdom of heaven suffereth violence, and the violent take it by force".

This is the violence in view. This is the Woman in the Kingdom of Heaven having her stars cast down to the earth. Satan is the accuser of the Brethren. That's what Isaiah 40:1 means when speaking of the Coming of Jesus, saying, "Comfort ye Jerusalem, that her warfare is accomplished, the Voice of him that crieth in the Wilderness!" In other words, when John came, he heralded the news that the warfare, the violence in the Kingdom would be completed, because Christ would bring Peace to Jerusalem. The Violence that the Kingdom suffered because of Satan will come to an end!

(End of Part One, Revelation 12:1-4)

 

[TribulationSigns]

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

(Part Two - Revelation 12:5-6)

The language of "rule all nations with a rod of Iron" in Verse 5 confirms this Man Child is Christ. This matches the language of Christ coming in revelation 19:15 where out of his mouth goes a sword, and He shall rule them with a Rod of Iron. It's taken from Psalms Chapter 2, and the prophesy of the coming of Christ. There is no real question but this Man Child was Christ. The Rod of "RULE" is of Iron to symbolize that He Rules in strength. His Kingdom is a strong Kingdom and His rule is the Word of God! It's absolute! And He was caught up to God and His throne. That again is exactly what happened to Jesus after the Cross, and what He meant when He said that the travailing woman would have joy after she was delivered of the man child. He was caught up to God and is at His right hand, and His throne. He had already begun His Rule at the ascension, not sometime in the future. He rules through His Church on Earth where He has empowered Christian with the Holy Spirit to preach His Gospel! This is the Millennial Kingdom!

Selah!

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.

False! The verse 6 did not "jumps to the end times," like you think!

After Christ ascends to Heaven to the throne of God, the Dragon (Satan) wants to destroy this woman, but she is given two wings of a great eagle (Symbolizing the care and protection of the Lord God) and she flies into the wilderness where she has a place prepared for her where God "feeds" and nourishes her there for 1260 days. The 1260 days is symbolical time. It equates to time, times, and a half (see verse 14). That is to say, the entire time that this congregation of the Lord has a testimony to give in the wilderness of the world. She is nourished from the face of the serpent. In other words, Satan cannot come near to harm her. He has been bound or restrained by the cross of Christ that He cannot harm the woman (the children of God) so they can go forth with the true gospel that many are saved. The Lord provides bread for the Church for the time that she is fed in the wilderness, which is symbolically typed as 1260 days. It's not literally 1260 days (3 1/2 years) but spiritually it is.

This is intimately identified with when The Lord God freed Israel from bondage of Egypt and they had to spend time in the wilderness before they entered into their promised land. This woman, now representing the Church in the New Testament after the Cross, must spend time in the wilderness (Commemorated by the week of the Feast of Tabernacles) after she is freed from bondage to sin before she can enter the promised land. But God will protect her and keep her from harm. That is what the language of giving her two wings of an Eagle symbolizes. God did the same thing for Old Testament Israel as He brought them out of Egypt.

Exodus 19:4

• "Ye have seen what I did unto the the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles wings, and brought you unto Myself."

Likewise, God is bringing us unto Himself, and bearing us up on Eagles wings. This is not coincidence, it is because the Church/Congregation "IS" the Israel of God that was freed from bondage to Satan at the Cross! She always was, and always will be. She was freed from satan, and the power of death he brought, and she is protected from the face of the serpent by God. Satan can't harm her for he is bound from doing so (Matthew 12:29). That's the symbolism of her given eagles wings to fly into the wilderness and be nourished from the face of Satan for this time. The 1260 days in the wilderness is symbolic of the journey of the Church from the time she is freed from Bondage, to the time that her witness or testimony is finished (Revelation. 11:3, 7). Then the 1260 days she has been FED of God will have been accomplished. Revelation 11 speaks of it as the time the Testimony of the two Witnesses (Candlesticks, Prophets, Olive Trees) is finished. This is the time after 1260 days when the testimony of the Church is finished. Then there will be a short time of famine and tribulation as satan is loosed from the bottomless pit. And then Christ finally will return.

The connection here is that as Israel was freed from bondage to Egypt, and spent time in the wilderness before it could enter into the promised land, so also when Christ freed us (The Israel of God) from bondage to Satan, we also spend time in the wilderness of the world before entering into the spiritual promised land. The Feast of Tabernacles celebrates this wilderness journey. "One Week" is the celebration of the wilderness journey. It's the Length of the New Covenant with Israel which was confirmed (strengthened) by Messiah, the Prince (Daniel 9). This woman is fed in the wilderness for time, times and a half (3 1/2), but that is not her time in the wilderness. It's only the time that she is fed from the face of Satan. Which means, the rest of her time she is not fed away from the face of the serpent. That's the second half of the week, time, times and a dividing of time (3 1/2). When Satan is loosed to bring tribulation to the Church (Daniel 7:25). There is an abomination that leads to desolation, Famine (of the Word of God) as Satan rules for a short time in the temple of God as if he was God (see the 2nd Thessalonians 2 Study). And this lasts until the Return of Christ. That will be the end of the 1 (Final) week spoken of in Daniel chapter 9. This is the entire period of the New Covenant/Testament with Israel. It's symbolically one week. It is no coincidence that Christ the Israel of God preached 3 1/2 years before He was crucified, and the Church Israel is spoken of as having a testimony lasting 1260 days (3 1/2 years, Rev 11:3,7) before she is killed. The Church and Christ are intimately identified together as we are the Body of Christ and He dwells within us. The Cross was when the woman Israel was freed from bondage and was comforted and protected on Eagle's wings, and fed of God from the face of the serpent (half a week, of the final week of the 70 weeks [of years] of daniel chapter 9) and have famine and Satan wear out the saints and have tribulation 42 months (3 1/2 years, last half of the week) before Christ returns and the Judgment sits. These are Spiritual times, for no man knows the day nor the hour of the Lord's return.

​

(End of Part Two, Revelation 12:5-6)

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part Three, Revelation 12:7 to continue tomorrow)

GN!

 

[Jay Ross]

Dougggg your previously published this in the thread How many kingdoms in Daniel?, where you provided a "diagram" of your understanding of Rev 12. where I posted this: -

I hope that this clears up your misunderstanding of what I was trying to state.


4 BC: -

Christ was born, and the visitation of the iniquities of the fathers during the third and fourth ages of the Israelites begins and will last for two ages.​

The Little Horn ramps up His trampling of God's sanctuary and His earthly Hosts for another two generation/ages.​

2044AD: -

God walking contrary to Israel ends and He will then begin to gather the Israelites to Himself and will plant them in His fertile soil of His field and will teach them on the religion of Israel.​

God judges the Kings of the earth at Armageddon and the heavenly hosts in heaven and gather them together on the face of the earth to imprison them in the Bottomless pit for a period of 1,000 years.​

God keeps His promised Covenant of peace with Israel by removing the Beasts of the field from the face of the earth.​

The Son of Man comes before the Ancient of Day and is given a kingdom and dominion over the peoples of the earth such that they should worship Him.​

Christ Priestly Rule for 1,000 years with the Saint that are a part of the first resurrection, begins in Heaven.​

3044 AD: -

The Bottomless pit where the Judged kings of the earth and the judged heavenly hosts were imprisoned for many days to await the time of their punishment is unlocked and they are released of a Little While period which will last for around 24 years during which time Satan will initially go after the Israelites because they no longer wanted Satan to be their master/father over them for a time before Satan and the beast and the Little Horn/False prophet will go after the rest of God's Saints. During this time period Satan will lead an army over the face of the earth during a period of great tribulation while coming to Jerusalem for his/their last acts before they are captured and dispatched into the Lake of Fire.​

3068 AD:-

The beast and the false prophet will be captured and dispatched into the lake of fire. After this Satan will be captured and also dispatched into the Lake of Fire.​

Then Christ will come in all of His Glory with the heavenly Hosts and the second resurrection will take place with some inheriting the whole earth while the rest will be dispatched into the Lake of Fire​

After this the earth will be cleansed, and the Heavens and the Earth will be refreshed/renewed and the age of Eternity will begin.

Now I do not need to generate a diagram like your demand. I do not believe that your simplified diagram does not shows a good representation of Rev 12 as Rev 12 has gaps hidden within its text which you have not shown but are implied.

Plese note that in the listing of events above, I have not included every event that will take place and that the listing of events can be padded out with more detail to provide a fuller picture of what will unfold in our near and distant future.

And you responded with this which in part became the Op in this thread.

Jay, you did not relate the verses of Revelation 12 to your list of dates (4 BC, 2044 AD, 3044 AD, 3068 AD) . How do you get 2044 AD, 3044 AD, 3068 AD from what is written in Revelation 12 ?

Go back and make a list of the verses of Revelation 12 and show how the dates and comments you listed have any thing to do with Revelation 12.

Here, I will give my example....explaining the verses. Read the verses from your bible, as I go through my explanation of the verses.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhibiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountain sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

Which was your response to my post in that thread where I gave a year indication of when certain events would take place.

Again, you are stubbornly reposting what was false in the other thread in this thread as if you have not been able to satisfactorily present the facts as found in Rev 12.

I have not provided a listing of events solely based on Rev 12 but have painted a broader picture of the events and when they will likely occur. Your quoted put down demonstrated your lack of understanding and repeating the gist of that rebuttal in this thread does not change my opinion of your understanding that it is fanciful on your part.

 

[Douggg]

The 1260 days is symbolical time. It equates to time, times, and a half (see verse 14). That is to say, the entire time that this congregation of the Lord has a testimony to give in the wilderness of the world. She is nourished from the face of the serpent. In other words, Satan cannot come near to harm her. He has been bound or restrained by the cross of Christ that He cannot harm the woman (the children of God) so they can go forth with the true gospel that many are saved. The Lord provides bread for the Church for the time that she is fed in the wilderness, which is symbolically typed as 1260 days. It's not literally 1260 days (3 1/2 years) but spiritually it is.

No, the 1260 days are literal days. The first half of the 7 years.

 

[HealthyShape]

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10

I think this alone debunks all the OP interpretations/speculations.

 

[Deleted member 26788]

I will walk through Revelation 12, explaining the verses. Follow along with your bible reading each verse as I explain the meaning thereof.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a vision John saw of Jesus being born to the woman (Israel) and Satan's attempt to have Jesus killed as soon as he was born. Which historically happened when Herod ordered all the children under the age of 2 be killed.

Verse 5 is Jesus born and caught up to God and to God's throne. Destined to rule the nations with a rod of iron.

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times, when Israel, the woman, has returned to the land, but still in unbelief that Jesus is the messiah. And for 1260 days, Israel will be fed the Word of God - by the two witnesses, of Revelation 11:3, those 1260 days.
`
Revelation 12:7-9 after the 1260 days, there will be a war in the second heaven which Satan and his angels will be cast down to earth.

Revelation 12:10 the Jews at that time finally turn to Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Satan will have been accusing them of their unbelief for the 1260 days that the Jews will mistakenly think the Antichrist is their messiah

Revelation 12:11 the Jews will overcome all Satan's accusations by believing upon the blood of the Lamb as atonement for their sins. And the Jews will testify about Jesus and the gospel of salvation. Even though many will be killed for their testimony.

Revelation 12:12 because Satan has been cast down to earth with just a short time left to his power, them in heaven rejoice about his coming demise. But to them on earth, Satan's wrath at being cast down will be the third woe to the inhabiters of earth as said in Revelation 8:13.

Revelation 12:13 Satan will take his wrath out on Israel and begin to persecute Israel.

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

Revelation 12:15 Satan will make attempts to destroy the Jews in their mountains sanctuary.

Revelation 12:16 But God will supernaturally thwart all attempts by Satan to persecute the Jews who had fled into the mountains.

Revelation 12:17 Satan, not able to get to the Jews in the mountains, will persecute the remaining Jews who did not flee to the mountains right away, as Jesus told them to do in Matthew 24:15-21. Those Jews who Satan will have access to persecute, Jesus will rescue when Jesus returns to Jerusalem in Zechariah 14.

so far off its a LOL,,,,,, please stay out of that book

 

[Marty fox]

The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place.
Rev 1:1

Blessed is the one who reads the words of this prophecy...because the time is near.
Rev 1:3

"God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must come to pass soon."
Rev 22:6

"Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is near."
Rev 22:10

I think this alone debunks all the OP interpretations/speculations.

Yes true, and Daniel was told to seal his prophecy because it was for the far future.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

@Douggg
Wow, with so many views of how the end times will pan out, you seem to be confident ... walking us through this as if you got it. Lol.
I actually thought I had it and over the the last 25 years have revised my view and details. It's confusing, mysterious and difficult, because it is NOT chronological. We are presented these events one at a time, but much is happening simultaneously. I see Revelation as a transparent sphere of events. As you turn the sphere, you see other events overlapping and accumulating. It is as if the scroll is the play handed to Jesus, MacArthur called I the " Title Deed of the Earth". But the trumpets and Bowls fall within the Scroll, which frankly Jesus opened it right after He ascended onto heaven. How do we know this? Well we would 't know what was in it before He opened.

You started off fine but then because you have this Pre-Trib view, you must factor into this, the 70th week theory. Well, I never really bought the 70th week of Daniel/ Gap theory. I think that was historical, only pointing to Jesus' 1st coming. Gabriel was quite accurate in delivering that message. There was no gap in his message, no after thought - as if man changed the outcome of what was planned from the beginning. Jesus showed up after the 69 weeks, therefore His ministry took up half of the 70th week. In the middle of the week, He was crucified and rose - no need to account for the rest of the week, it's an inclusive time frame (as Jesus death and resurrection did not take a full 3 x 24-hour day time frame either.
So in Revelation, when it says 1260 days/ 42 months, (1290 &1335 days in Daniel 12), that is the length of the entire Great Tribulation. The Antichrist is in charge during the time the two witnesses are preaching (as I understand it). 7 years is too long, but of course if you see this first half as a time of peace, then yes. But as Onindersyand it, the Church is not translated until the Antichrist's identity is revealed. The falling away from faith precedes this as well.
With a Mid-Trib/ Pre-Wrath view, at the time the witnesses are killed, then raised 3 1/2days later, is when the Rapture happens. That would be at the last trumpet, #7 (Rev. 11:15), when we, along witht the two witnesses are taken up. Heaven is opened, rewards are given, dead are judged and now, from day 1263-1335, the Seven Bowls of Wrath are released to destroy the remaining inhabitants. 144k Jewish male priests were sealed
before these events; however, a remnant of Israel ( Romans 11), who did not participate in the Rapture, now realize the truth_ because they see Jesus coming in the clouds _ and they mourn. These mortals are protected along with any others who did not receive the mark of the Beast. Blessed are those who make it to day 1335. So that is proof, not everyone left behind dies. These remaining mortal believers will repopulate the earth during the MK. Babies will be born during the MK - obviously not by those who have been resurrected. This is why there will be a 2nd Resurrection at the end of the thousand years.

Exhausting isn't it? Don't get all perturbed - I could be wrong. Actually I would rather the Pre-Trib view to be correct - because I don't want to be around. Nevertheless God does not appoint us to wrath, but we need to go through part of this and our faith tested.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, the 1260 days are literal days.

If you claim the 1,260 days are literal, then you must also believe a woman is literally floating in outer space, dressed with the sun, standing on the moon, while a massive dragon waves his tail to knock real stars out of the sky. That kind of thinking is foolish, childish, and blind to the symbolic nature of Revelation. You’re twisting God’s Word into nonsense instead of rightly discerning the Spirit’s message.

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part Three, Revelation 12:7)

Michael in verse seven is a signification for Christ. This word is of Hebrew origin and is [miykael], meaning "whom or he, is surely God". It's taken from three root words, [miy] meaning whom or he, [kiy] meaning surely or assuredly, and ['el], meaning God. [miykael] or Michael is Christ who assuredly is God. He is called the Arch (Chief or Head) Messenger because He is the Messenger of the Covenant (Malachi 3:1) who was prophesied to come.

Malachi 3:1

• "Behold, I will send my messenger, and he shall prepare the way before me: and the Lord, whom ye seek, shall suddenly come to his temple, even the messenger of the covenant, whom ye delight in: behold, he shall come, saith the LORD of hosts".

He is NOT an Angel, but a Messenger. The words translated angel and messenger are the exact same words. Christ and His messengers fought, and the Devil and His messengers fought, and Satan and his messengers were defeated by the cross of Christ. Christ strengthened the Covenant by His death (Heb. 9:17).

So often many lose sight of the fact that Revelation is using symbolic language all throughout this chapter. For example, the Sun, Moon, Stars, and they being in heaven are all Symbolic of something else, not the Literal heaven, a woman, the sun, or stars. That is quite obvious! The warfare was a Spiritual warfare. When Isaiah says Jerusalem's warfare was accomplished or finished, it wasn't talking about literal war with clubs, swords or literal fighting (Sorry Preterists!) Or guns, missiles, and even AI (Sorry Premillennialists!). It is a warfare infinitely more important. We see this pictured gloriously as Jesus sends the 70 out 2 by 2 with the gospel, and they returned saying Satan couldn't harm them, (ye shall take up serpents) and even the spirits were subject to them. Christ the arch or chief Messenger (not angel) gave his messengers this Power, a prelude to what power they would have because of the cross. Their battle gear was the sword of the Spirit, which is the Word of God. That was what they fought with. And their victory was assured only in Christ! Listen and hear what Jesus tells His messengers as He sends them out two by two.

Luke 10:16-18

• "He that heareth you heareth Me; and he that despiseth you despiseth Me; and he that despiseth Me despiseth Him that sent Me.

Jesus is illustrating that if they fight you, they fight Him, and if they fight Him, they fight against God. For exmaple, he is telling them they (like Christians) are messengers representing God and any enmity against them is then enmity against God! They are God's army. It continues in verse 17:

• And the 70 returned again with joy, saying, LORD, even the DEVILS are SUBJECT unto us through THY name.

Satan had no power to stand against them by the faith that would be secured by the Cross of Christ. It was by the Power of Christ that the devils were subject to the Messengers of the lord. Christ, the Chief Messenger Michael who assuredly is God Himself, was the reason that they could not stand against these messengers. The 70 Christ sent out rejoiced at this, and note "carefully" in the next verse, Christ's response to their Joy of their Victory over devils:

• And He said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from Heaven."

Satan hadn't literally fallen out of the sky (heaven) Christ is signifying that he has been prevented from harming anyone in the Kingdom of heaven, the New Testament congregation where God's messengers are. And that falling is exactly what the next verses of Revelation chapter 12 is referring to. That Satan now had no power over the army of God, and the kingdom of Heaven would go forth to the world because of it. Satan spiritually is cast out of it, and the bondage wherewith he held men would be broken by the Cross. the accuser would not be able to cast down the stars to the earth. This miracle of the 70 was a picture of what the finished work of Christ would do for the Church. It would destroy (bring Him down/Idle) Satan (Hebrews 2:14) so that the saints could be free from his bondage whereby he held death over them. Christ could now build His Church and the gates of Hell could not prevail over it as Satan is defeated, cast out, and bound that the Lord could free his prisoners or captives and build His Church. The same picture of Joy as the Woman being delivered of the man Child which Jesus talked about. It is a victory by the blood of the lamb as the Kingdom suffered violence, but Christ would bring it peace and Safety.

Hebrews 2:14

• "..that through death, He might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is the devil,
• and deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage".

That Greek word "destroy" there is [katargeo] and means to make idle or inactive down. To literally make vanish or void. We know Satan was not destroyed in the classic sense of the word because he STILL goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1st Peter 5:8), but the Kingdom of God is come and has been delivered from bondage to Him and secured from harm by that old serpent because of the Blood of the cross. In the symbolic sense of Revelation, Satan was cast out of heaven (the kingdom) making it secure. The Kingdom which suffered violence is delivered. Satan was the accuser of the brethren by sin, because he held them in bondage with the fear of death hanging over them. But Christ delivered us from that bondage by paying the wages of sin (death) and thus cast the accuser out. By the power of Christ is he conquered and as lightning fell from heaven. When Jesus told the 70 that He saw Satan as lightning (God's judgment) fall from heaven, this is what he was talking about. He saw the Victory of the cross that would destroy satan, cast him out of the Kingdom and thus keep the messengers of He who assuredly is God from harm. The scorpions and serpents were signifying Satan and all power of this enemy. Selah!

 

[Douggg]

Exhausting isn't it? Don't get all perturbed - I could be wrong

Hi Ronald, not to worry, I don't get perturbed because another believer disagrees with me.

I do believe that the rapture could take place pre-trib (a misnomer for what is really meant as pre-70th week). But the rapture may not happen then.

The important thing is to live a life aware that the rapture which God the Father will determine exactly when. Live a life in closeness relationship with Him through Christ. God is wonderful.

I view the rapture must take place before the Antichrist goes into the temple, sits, claiming to have achieved God-hood (that is the Daniel 8:13 transgression of desolation act). Which would be pre-wrath in a sense.

We cannot pre-determine exactly when that act will take place, but my guess is around the 3 year mark into the 7 years. - as not long after the act, the abomination of desolation statue image will be set up on the temple mount on day 1185 of the 7 years, i.e. 1335 days before Jesus returns.

Jesus showed up after the 69 weeks, therefore His ministry took up half of the 70th week. In the middle of the week, He was crucified and rose - no need to account for the rest of the week, it's an inclusive time frame (as Jesus death and resurrection did not take a full 3 x 24-hour day time frame either.

Jesus arrived in Jerusalem, hailed as the king of Israel messiah, in John 12:12-15. 4 days later he was crucified. So basically arriving and being cutoff as the same time.

Daniel 9 does not say after 69 1/2 weeks. Nor mentions the start of the messiah's ministry.

One reason to know the 70th week is still future is all of the time elements of Revelation fit within that 7 years.

Also, Ezekiel 39 gives the framework of the 7 years. Gog/Magog, then 7 years (Ezekiel 39:9), then Armageddon feast (Ezekiel 39:17-20), and Jesus Himself speaking in the text Ezekiel 39:21-29 having returned to this earth.

Yes, I am very confident in my walk through's.

 

[Exegesis]

Verse 5 is Jesus born...

Revelation 12:6 jumps to the end times...

That's way too schizophrenic to match the beautiful flow of Scripture as well as the rich history it lays out.

You have left nothing for the students of the Bible that lived thousands of years ago to relate to or meditate on.

You stole Scripture for yourself and made it about yourself and the times you live in.

I wish you could see how selfish and greedy that is.

 

[Exegesis]

The biggest mistake practically everyone on this forum makes when doing their hermeneutics is to throw the Old Testament into the garbage. You throw the Israelites and Jews into the garbage as well. You reveal what is in your hearts so readily.

 

[Douggg]

That's way too

That's way too schizophrenic to match the beautiful flow of Scripture as well as the rich history it lays out.

You have left nothing for the students of the Bible that lived thousands of years ago to relate to or meditate on.

You stole Scripture for yourself and made it about yourself and the times you live in.

I wish you could see how selfish and greedy that is.

to match the beautiful flow of Scripture as well as the rich history it lays out.

You have left nothing for the students of the Bible that lived thousands of years ago to relate to or meditate on.

You stole Scripture for yourself and made it about yourself and the times you live in.

I wish you could see how selfish and greedy that is.

The biggest mistake practically everyone on this forum makes when doing their hermeneutics is to throw the Old Testament into the garbage. You throw the Israelites and Jews into the garbage as well. You reveal what is in your hearts so readily.

In my opening post explanation for.....

Revelation 12:14 The Jews in Judea will flee into the mountains when they see the abomination of desolation statue image set up and indwelt by Satan. There in the wilderness, the Jews will be protected for the remaining time/times/half time that Satan will have left.

....so let's go to Daniel 12, for old testament hermenutics which will involve Daniel's people the Jews and see what it says...

8 And I heard, but I understood not: then said I, O my Lord, what shall be the end of these things?

9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

12 Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.

13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We are living in the time of the end. Israel is a nation again back in the land, 1948. The Jews have regained possession of Jerusalem, 1967. The Jews (Judaism) are expecting their messiah (someone other than Jesus, the true messiah) who will turn out to be the Antichrist.

That is old testament hermeneutics combined with Revelation 12, and the reality of the world today.

 

[TribulationSigns]

(Part 4 - Revelation 12:8-10)

VERSE EIGHT

• "And prevailed not; neither was their place found anymore in heaven".

VERSE NINE

• "And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his messengers were cast out with him."

When Christ sent the 70 (the number 70 was representing the fullness or totality of the church) out to witness two by two, and when they returned, He said He saw Satan as lightning fall from heaven (Luke 10:18), THIS is what Revelation 12 is symbolizing. The accuser is cast out! There is no longer a fear of death as the law does not condemn us, and he no longer has power in the Congregation of Israel, the Church. Michael (Christ) and His Messengers (believers) fought against Spirit of Satan and his messengers (Scribes, Pharisees, and all people with them) by the work of the cross. Ultimately, through Christ's death, Satan was cast out and the Lord's army gained the Victory. They go forth Conquering and to conquer, because Christ went forth Conquering and to Conquer and they were risen in Him. They go forth in battle, and overcome not of themselves, but by the blood of Christ. Devils are subject to them through Christ's Power of the cross.

Christ gave us the power to overcome Satan by the Cross alone, and this assured that nothing Satan could do could harm Christians, spiritually. He can physically kill us, have us stoned to death, or fed to the Lions, but ultimately, he has lost and has no power in the Kingdom because his accusations mean nothing because of the work of Christ. He cannot harm us in any way, and certainly not by false Gospel. Again,

Luke 10:18

• "...I beheld Satan as Lightning fall from heaven. Behold I give you power to tred on SERPENTS and SCORPIONS, and over all power of the enemy: and nothing shall by any means hurt you."

Some morons think they want to go out in the desert and handle literal snakes, or think that they can drink literal poison (Mark 16). But that's NOT what is in view. When Mark 16 says we can pick up serpents and not be harmed, and when this verse says we can tred on serpents and scorpions and not be hurt, what is in view is Satan. He is the Serpent that cannot harm us, not a literal snake in the grass. He is the scorpion whose sting in his tail cannot harm us. This is Symbolic language! It is NOT a literal promise that you can't be poisoned or killed by a snake!

This is the symbolism of God's Word, and unless we start listening to God's Word, we're not going to know which way is up as far as interpretation. We will leave ourselves open for any type of deception. But when you get it from the Bible, by the Holy Spirit that tells you it's true, you know that you are on the right track. It was Christ who cast Satan from heaven, and it's through Christ that we have the power over serpents, scorpions, and poisonous drinks. Poisons from the lips of Satan's false Prophets.

And how did these Messengers of Michael overcome Satan and his messengers? We need not speculate; we get it directly from the scriptures there. And scripture tells us:

VERSE TEN

• "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come Salvation and strength, and the Kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ: for the accuser of the brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."

See? The accuser of the brethren is sin. Satan is the essence, the embodiment of sin. But at the cross Michael (Christ) cast down the accuser by purging us from sin, and destroying (making idle or void) Satan who held this fear of death over us (Hebrews. 2:14). We read, NOW has come Salvation and Strength! That was at the Cross! Not in the future, else you are NOT saved! Selah! This was HOW Christ strengthened or confirmed the Covenant in His Blood at the cross (Hebrews 9:17). That was when Satan was cast down. That was when Salvation came. Who did it? Of course, Christ! He is Michael, the Chief Messenger of that Covenant. This verse tells us how the victory was achieved. Now is Come the Kingdom..

Consider wisely the significance of what Jesus told the people when He cast out Satan from a man and said the Kingdom had come. It was an illustration that This "indeed" was the Messenger of the Covenant promised, and indeed the Kingdom Had come, and He indeed would bind satan and deliver those held captive by Him. Consider wisely:

Matthew 12:26-30

• "And if Satan cast outSatan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?
• And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.
• But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then The Kingdom of God is come unto you.
• Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.
• He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad".

That tells it all!!!! The strong man is Satan, He who came to spoil (take by right of conquest) his house is Christ, but note God says FIRST He (Christ) had to bind Satan. Then he could spoil or take his possessions. That's what Christ did to satan by the Cross. Bound him, made him void, destroyed him that he could deliver his captivity and set them free from bondage. And Matthew 12:30 goes right on in the same vein of those with Christ and against him. Either his army fighting with Him, or those fighting against Him. we note also Christ says "if" he by God casts out Satan, then the Kingdom of God has come unto you. Again, just as we read in Revelation chapter 12. Now is come the Kingdom and Salvation because "the accuser of the brethren", Satan, is cast down. He is bound that he cannot hurt us. This is the same picture God is painting here in matthew 12.

The Kingdom has now come, it is within us as Christ is within us (luke 17:12) and Satan is cast out (just as jesus cast the Devil out in matthew 12 and said all these things). Satan has no power in "THIS" Kingdom because he was defeated by Christ's death and it's a more perfect Kingdom. Not of this world, but a spiritual Kingdom with us (Christ's messengers) as those with power over Satan.

Douggg's so-called future 1,000 millennial kingdom is nonsense!

(Part Five - Revelation 12:11 Coming soon! Stay tuned!)

 

[Douggg]

If you claim the 1,260 days are literal, then you must also believe a woman is literally floating in outer space, dressed with the sun, standing on the moon, while a massive dragon waves his tail to knock real stars out of the sky

No, that is not an equal comparison. The 1260 days are literal, half of the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9, and Daniel 9:27.

There are 15 "time of the end" time frames given in the bible. They all fit within the 7 years.

 

[TribulationSigns]

No, that is not an equal comparison.

Huh??

The 1260 days are literal, half of the 7 years of Ezekiel 39:9, and Daniel 9:27.
There are 15 time the end time frames given in the bible. They all fit within the 7 years.

Listen...the Prince has already confirmed the Covenant. He is "your" prince who you believe will some day sign a "seven year" agreement. You got wrong prince! Period. It was the Prince of peace who established the New Covenant church, took away the sin of his people and ended their warfare. How many times does God's word have to testify to this before you accept it a truth.

Hebrews 8:9-12

• "Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
• For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
• And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
• For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
• In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away."

THIS is how Christ confirmed a covenant with His Church (Christians) whom Christ wrote his laws in their minds and hearts. And send them out to preach the Gospel for 1,260 SYMBOLIC days - the whole church age as long as Christ is sealing his people through the tesitmony of His Witnesses! Selah! You are really ignoring God's word that He has done all this. Moreover, you present this scripture purporting a so-called "seven literal years of tribulation period", but the Scripture itself does not at all "say" that the tribulation period will be "seven years", nor that this one week in which the Covenant is confirmed (literally, made strong), is the "great tribulation period." So it's all your private interpretation of the verse, not something the verse actually says. Indeed, the verse itself destroys your interpretation because it says that in the midst of this week this abomination of desolation starts. Not at the beginning of it. So if this were seven years, then the tribulation would be 3 1/2 years, not seven. Christ identifies the abomination of desolation spoken of by Daniel as the time of this great tribulation.

Matthew 24:21

• "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

So therefore your theory has to be incorrect. This manipulation of the Scriptures by some authors is typical of both Dispensationalism and Premillennialism in general. Both systems of interpretation "read things" into the scriptures that are not actually there, and then make claims that their's is a literalist system.

Can you give us even one single Scripture that says that the great tribulation period lasts for 7 years? That's not from the inerrant authority of the word, that's your personal interpretation of the word. Or can you give us even one Scripture that says the believers will be taken out of the world before the Great Tribulation? Again, not a private interpretation, which some Theologians claim "may mean that," but any actual scripture that says that the church cannot go through the Great Tribulation and must, or will, be raptured before it starts?

Matthew 24:15

• "When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand: )"

How can they both be in the world and see the great tribulation, and have already been taken out of the world before it? On the contrary, God informs us that not only will the saints be here, but they should be aware that when they "see" the abomination of desolation,they are to flee to the mountains. So from the inerrant authority of Scriptures, it is absurd to think that the saints will have been raptured because God didn't want them to go through the wrath of this tribulation.

Therefore we understand that this is either your interpretation or the thoughts of your teachers. But it is not the actual word of God. Do you know of any Scripture that says people are going to be physically martyred by the millions in the great tribulation? ..I've searched the Scriptures for years and I can't come up with such a declaration. So this begs the question, where did you get that number? God's word is what we must look to for doctrine, correction and our instruction in what is the great tribulation. It is not Hal Lindsey or John Walvoord's book!

2nd Timothy 3:16-17

• ""All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for
  doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
• That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good
  works."

If we are to be perfect before God, we must look to His Holy word alone, and it will thoroughly equip us to know what is the truth so that we will follow His doctrines, and eschew the words and deceptions of men. We have to keep the word perfectly clear before us, that we know the difference between our own interpretations, and God's word itself. When we faithfully bear witness to God's word so that we can quote it word for word, then we know we have truth. When we do not, we have only the words, ideas and imaginations of man's heart like yours!

Selah!

 

[HealthyShape]

Less wild jumping back and forth in time and more realistic view:

The woman who gave birth - The Hebrew-Christian church, the "mother Church" in Jerusalem.

The child - the faithful disciples of Christ in Judea or just in Jerusalem.

1260 days - the period of the Jewish war between 66-70 AD.

Jesus warned His disciples that they should run from Judea when they will see the Roman armies. And historically, many did.

Two witnesses mentioned in the OP are Peter and James, both killed by the beast Nero.

Etc.