Revelation 20: 5&6

[rebuilder 454]

No it did not!

It's not even talking about the Great Tribulation, nor the rapture where the 144,000 are in Heaven.

Christ is already in Heaven and from Heaven with the holy angels the revelation is being ministered and witnessed.

Mount Zion is on earth, symbolically it represent the spiritual Heavenly Jerusalem, GOD's eternal city, where believers are said to have come through faith.

Where the Lord begin His work on the Israelites, and by this a remnant of them were saved under the election of grace, and through faith.

Numbering 144,000 of them, where the FATHER's name written in their forehead, and they are sealed, even to Paul acknowledging during his time, 'at present'.

They were redeemed from the earth and being the firstfruits unto GOD and to the Lamb, and still on earth.

Next verse, the angels having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them dwell on earth, to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

From the day of Pentecost, the Apostles brought the everlasting Gospel forth to all nation, kindred, tongue and people.

This is the everlasting Gospel period to the generation of Gentile church saints saved similarly under the election of grace and through faith.

To the time of anti-Christ and after, and before the thousand years of peace, where the judgement is upon on those who worshiped the beast, his image, received the mark in their forehead or hand.

They will drink the wine of the wrath of GOD, being tormented with fire and brimstone, and Heaven is witness to this.


From Rev. ch. 14, it's talking about after the thousand years, the second resurrection and final judgement, where the Lord and the angels are to reap from the harvest they gather of the earth.

The harvest where there are those who'll resurrect unto life the Lord shall reap and those resurrect unto damnation cast into the great winepress of the wrath of GOD.

Apparently, there's no coverage of the 'first resurrection' and the 'Great Tribulation', but the 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' love to copy and paste to fit their version.

Again am dealing with 'gibberish' babble once again from 'rebuilder 454', who loves to rebuild the scripture to his 'twisted' version.

It's best you start your own thread on that version and not troll on mine and cause a mockery.

1) you have no authority oven me as to where I post
2) Mt zion is on earth AND IN HEAVEN...as the Bible declares.
Heb 12
18For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20(For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

Heb 12
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

But beyond that it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the 144k are IN HEAVEN in Rev 14.

Rev 14
3...and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So clear that the song of the elders can not possibly be the song of the 144,000.

Ahem....ONLY THE 144K sing the song of rev14....elders can not sing that.

So yes...the 144,000 are in fact Jews. Messianic Jews as the bible declares.

 

[David in NJ]

1) you have no authority oven me as to where I post
2) Mt zion is on earth AND IN HEAVEN...as the Bible declares.
Heb 12
18For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20(For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

Heb 12
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

But beyond that it is BEYOND CLEAR that the 144k are INNHEAVEN in Rev 14.

Rev 14
3...and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

All the above, except that which i deleted from your post is: "YAY and AMEN"

 

[rebuilder 454]

No it did not!

It's not even talking about the Great Tribulation, nor the rapture where the 144,000 are in Heaven.

Christ is already in Heaven and from Heaven with the holy angels the revelation is being ministered and witnessed.

Mount Zion is on earth, symbolically it represent the spiritual Heavenly Jerusalem, GOD's eternal city, where believers are said to have come through faith.

Where the Lord begin His work on the Israelites, and by this a remnant of them were saved under the election of grace, and through faith.

Numbering 144,000 of them, where the FATHER's name written in their forehead, and they are sealed, even to Paul acknowledging during his time, 'at present'.

They were redeemed from the earth and being the firstfruits unto GOD and to the Lamb, and still on earth.

Next verse, the angels having the everlasting Gospel to preach unto them dwell on earth, to every nation, kindred, tongue and people.

From the day of Pentecost, the Apostles brought the everlasting Gospel forth to all nation, kindred, tongue and people.

This is the everlasting Gospel period to the generation of Gentile church saints saved similarly under the election of grace and through faith.

To the time of anti-Christ and after, and before the thousand years of peace, where the judgement is upon on those who worshiped the beast, his image, received the mark in their forehead or hand.

They will drink the wine of the wrath of GOD, being tormented with fire and brimstone, and Heaven is witness to this.


From Rev. ch. 14, it's talking about after the thousand years, the second resurrection and final judgement, where the Lord and the angels are to reap from the harvest they gather of the earth.

The harvest where there are those who'll resurrect unto life the Lord shall reap and those resurrect unto damnation cast into the great winepress of the wrath of GOD.

Apparently, there's no coverage of the 'first resurrection' and the 'Great Tribulation', but the 'imposters' and 'counterfeits' love to copy and paste to fit their version.

Again am dealing with 'gibberish' babble once again from 'rebuilder 454', who loves to rebuild the scripture to his 'twisted' version.

It's best you start your own thread on that version and not troll on mine and cause a mockery.

QUOTE
"....and cause a mockery".

Says the man that does not understand Mt Zion is in heaven.

In fact most of the bible I place on the table, your doctrine of omission stumbles over, when seen for the first time.

 

[Fred J]

1) you have no authority oven me as to where I post
2) Mt zion is on earth AND IN HEAVEN...as the Bible declares.
Heb 12
18For you have not come [g]to the mountain that may be touched and that burned with fire, and to blackness and [h]darkness and tempest, 19and the sound of a trumpet and the voice of words, so that those who heard it begged that the word should not be spoken to them anymore. 20(For they could not endure what was commanded: “And if so much as a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned or shot with an arrow.” 21And so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I am exceedingly afraid and trembling.”)

Heb 12
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23to the [j]general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect,

But beyond that it is CRYSTAL CLEAR that the 144k are IN HEAVEN in Rev 14.

Rev 14
3...and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.

So clear that the song of the elders can not possibly be the song of the 144,000.

Ahem....ONLY THE 144K sing the song of rev14....elders can not sing that.

So yes...the 144,000 are in fact Jews. Messianic Jews as the bible declares.

Yes, when you take it literally in your carnal self and understanding, truly not born again, indeed for you Mont Zion is also in Heaven.

But to us who spiritually discern, scripturally Heavenly Mount Zion and Jerusalem the Holy city of the free, of Sarah, or in other words of Hagar, is rather an 'allegory'. (Galatians4:24)

Now, as for your 'Messianic Jews' words literally you've just added, where in the Bible is written word to word?

Even non of the Apostles and church claimed so, since they were 'equally' saved with the Gentiles under the election of grace and through faith.

They generally with the Gentiles went by the name in the beginning from, 'followers of the way' to 'Christians' and 'church'.

But only the boastful bunch of nobodies and wannabes day dreamers empty vessels of today, claim by themselves so proudly, like some denominational churches.

These counterfeits and imposters like to distinct themselves as 'special people' of GOD in their 'flesh' and unlike 'scripturally in context' and 'spiritually in spirit and truth'.

To such doctrine of theirs comes from the god of this world, who've deceived and blinded them apparently.

As it is written, 'What fellowship do we have with demons and seated at their table.'

Repent, from falling short and under the category of workers of iniquity or lawlessness.

But if you want to continue the same, 'David in NJ' can be your best partner in crime.

 

[rvmb]

Yes, when you take it literally in your carnal self and understanding, truly not born again, indeed for you Mont Zion is also in Heaven.

But to us who spiritually discern, scripturally Heavenly Mount Zion and Jerusalem the Holy city of the free, of Sarah, or in other words of Hagar, is rather an 'allegory'. (Galatians4:24)

Now, as for your 'Messianic Jews' words literally you've just added, where in the Bible is written word to word?

Even non of the Apostles and church claimed so, since they were 'equally' saved with the Gentiles under the election of grace and through faith.

They generally with the Gentiles went by the name in the beginning from, 'followers of the way' to 'Christians' and 'church'.

But only the boastful bunch of nobodies and wannabes day dreamers empty vessels of today, claim by themselves so proudly, like some denominational churches.

These counterfeits and imposters like to distinct themselves as 'special people' of GOD in their 'flesh' and unlike 'scripturally in context' and 'spiritually in spirit and truth'.

To such doctrine of theirs comes from the god of this world, who've deceived and blinded them apparently.

As it is written, 'What fellowship do we have with demons and seated at their table.'

Repent, from falling short and under the category of workers of iniquity or lawlessness.

But if you want to continue the same, 'David in NJ' can be your best partner in crime.

""But if you want to continue the same, 'David in NJ' can be your best partner in crime.""
I'm newish here but I already understand why you make that assessment :)

 

[Fred J]

QUOTE
"....and cause a mockery".

Says the man that does not understand Mt Zion is in heaven.

In fact most of the bible I place on the table, your doctrine of omission stumbles over, when seen for the first time.

Ha, ha, ha, 'Mt Zion is in Heaven' again??

Probably there are more than one mount there, because one would look awkward, go and do more research and get back to us.

Will leave you 'two love birds' together and in research, no thank you.

 

[Fred J]

""But if you want to continue the same, 'David in NJ' can be your best partner in crime.""
I'm newish here but I already understand why you make that assessment :)

Sorry, hello there, welcome, we can either Biblically agree or disagree.

 

[rvmb]

Is there a Mt Zion in Heaven?

I don't know but I'm always happy to be taught by Scripture :)

 

[Fred J]

I don't know but I'm always happy to be taught by Scripture

Then start a topic open a thread, thank you

Because this topic is deep, about the Rapture and Great Tribulation.

You've to read my posts and get back to me on the post you have questions or so

 

[rvmb]

Scripturally, there's a Mt Zion in Jerusalem Israel, and 'allegorically' there's a Mt Zion in Heaven.

How do you define both, which is real and which is not?

Hot potato Fred, I'm handing it straight back to you since I am quite comfortable listening to verse based opinions from those more knowledgeable on topics like that.

 

[Fred J]

Hot potato Fred, I'm handing it straight back to you since I am quite comfortable listening to verse based opinions from those more knowledgeable on topics like that.

'Spectator'?

 

[rvmb]

'Spectator'?

I'll assume you are knowledgeable and would be happy to discuss verses that you cite regarding that topic,

 

[Fred J]

I'll assume you are knowledgeable and would be happy to discuss verses that you cite regarding that topic,

Would give all Glory, Honor and Praise to GOD because of our Lord Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost.

Am just an unworthy servant just doing my duty, you may start the discussion, thank you

 

[Fred J]

You may have to be patience with me if my replies are late, thank you.

 

[rvmb]

You may have to be patience with me if my replies are late, thank you.

All good Fred, respond whenever, here in Adelaide it's 354pm.

 

[keithr]

“Zion” was one of the hills on which the city of Jerusalem was built. Note that Jerusalem is often referred to as the "daughter of Zion", e.g. Matthew 21:5 (WEB):

(5) “Tell the daughter of Zion, behold, your King comes to you, humble, and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”​

which is referring to Zechariah 9:9 (WEB):

(9) Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion! Shout, daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you! He is righteous, and having salvation; lowly, and riding on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.​

Says the man that does not understand Mt Zion is in heaven.

I believe that Revelation 14:1 is referring to the Mount Zion on the earth, in Jerusalem, in the promised land of Israel. In context, the previous chapters are describing events taking place on the earth, and then verse one says, "I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion". There is no mention of anything heavenly up to this point, and the revelation of the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven is not mentioned until chapter 21. Verse 2 says, "I heard a sound from heaven", implying that John was on the earth and when heard the sound coming down from heaven (the sky above). He was on the earth when he saw Mount Zion - the earthly Mount Zion.

Revelation 14:3 KJV

(3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.​

Verse 3 says that "no man" could learn the song, except those 144,000 Israelites that had been previously sealed, and were living on the earth - Revelation 7:3-4 (WEB):

(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”​

(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:​

In the vision, the Lamb was on Mount Zion on the earth, with the 144,000 sealed Israelites, singing to the music that was coming from heaven. The "elders", that symbolically represent the whole of resurrected Church, were up in heaven, as they had been from chapter 4, so the 144,000 are not part of the Church - they are all Israelites living on the earth; they did not have a part in the first resurrection. Revelation 14:4 says:

(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

After the Church has been resurrected, these 144,000 Jews will be the first to be redeemed from the rest of mankind that are still living on the earth.

Verse 6 and the rest of the chapter continues to refer to events occurring on the earth, and to the "harvest of the earth" - Revelation 14:6 (WEB):

(6) I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.​

I therefore think it is very unlikely that the Mount Zion referred to in verse 1 is the heavenly "Mount Zion". After all, the New Jerusalem (which includes Mount Zion) is the resurrected Church, the temple of God - Revelation 21 (WEB):

(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”​

(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,​

(22) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.​

Hebrews 12:22 WEB

(22) But you have come to {we have become citizens of} Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,​

Philippians 3:20 WEB

(20) For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;​

Revelation 3:12 WEB

(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.​

2 Corinthians 6:16 WEB

(16) What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”​

Why would the 144,000 Israelite men be standing on the "heavenly Jerusalem", where God, Jesus and the resurrected Church lives?!

 

[rebuilder 454]

“Zion” was one of the hills on which the city of Jerusalem was built. Note that Jerusalem is often referred to as the "daughter of Zion", e.g. Matthew 21:5 (WEB):

(5) “Tell the daughter of Zion, behold, your King comes to you, humble, and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey.”​

which is referring to Zechariah 9:9 (WEB):

(9) Rejoice greatly, daughter of Zion! Shout, daughter of Jerusalem! Behold, your King comes to you! He is righteous, and having salvation; lowly, and riding on a donkey, even on a colt, the foal of a donkey.​

I believe that Revelation 14:1 is referring to the Mount Zion on the earth, in Jerusalem, in the promised land of Israel. In context, the previous chapters are describing events taking place on the earth, and then verse one says, "I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on Mount Zion". There is no mention of anything heavenly up to this point, and the revelation of the New Jerusalem coming down from heaven is not mentioned until chapter 21. Verse 2 says, "I heard a sound from heaven", implying that John was on the earth and when heard the sound coming down from heaven (the sky above). He was on the earth when he saw Mount Zion - the earthly Mount Zion.

Revelation 14:3 KJV

(3) And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.​

Verse 3 says that "no man" could learn the song, except those 144,000 Israelites that had been previously sealed, and were living on the earth - Revelation 7:3-4 (WEB):

(3) saying, “Don’t harm the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, until we have sealed the bondservants of our God on their foreheads!”​

(4) I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred forty-four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the children of Israel:​

In the vision, the Lamb was on Mount Zion on the earth, with the 144,000 sealed Israelites, singing to the music that was coming from heaven. The "elders", that symbolically represent the whole of resurrected Church, were up in heaven, as they had been from chapter 4, so the 144,000 are not part of the Church - they are all Israelites living on the earth; they did not have a part in the first resurrection. Revelation 14:4 says:

(4) These are those who were not defiled with women, for they are virgins. These are those who follow the Lamb wherever he goes. These were redeemed by Jesus from among men, the first fruits to God and to the Lamb.​

After the Church has been resurrected, these 144,000 Jews will be the first to be redeemed from the rest of mankind that are still living on the earth.

Verse 6 and the rest of the chapter continues to refer to events occurring on the earth, and to the "harvest of the earth" - Revelation 14:6 (WEB):

(6) I saw an angel flying in mid heaven, having an eternal Good News to proclaim to those who dwell on the earth, and to every nation, tribe, language, and people.​

I therefore think it is very unlikely that the Mount Zion referred to in verse 1 is the heavenly "Mount Zion". After all, the New Jerusalem (which includes Mount Zion) is the resurrected Church, the temple of God - Revelation 21 (WEB):

(9) One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls, who were loaded with the seven last plagues came, and he spoke with me, saying, “Come here. I will show you the wife, the Lamb’s bride.”​

(10) He carried me away in the Spirit to a great and high mountain, and showed me the holy city, Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God,​

(22) I saw no temple in it, for the Lord God, the Almighty, and the Lamb, are its temple.​

Hebrews 12:22 WEB

(22) But you have come to {we have become citizens of} Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable multitudes of angels,​

Philippians 3:20 WEB

(20) For our citizenship is in heaven, from where we also wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ;​

Revelation 3:12 WEB

(12) He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will go out from there no more. I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.​

2 Corinthians 6:16 WEB

(16) What agreement has a temple of God with idols? For you are a temple of the living God. Even as God said, “I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”​

Why would the 144,000 Israelite men be standing on the "heavenly Jerusalem", where God, Jesus and the resurrected Church lives?!

Are you saying the Jews are not grafted back in? ( Romans 9-11)
I agree the 144,000 are not the church, and can not possibly be the church.

It says they Follow the lamb wherever he goes, so that tells us they are messianic, jews and not, Orthodox israelite jews.(unsaved).
It specifically says they are in heaven
In Rev 14
There is a Mount Zion in heaven and a Mount Zion on Earth.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Ha, ha, ha, 'Mt Zion is in Heaven' again??

Probably there are more than one mount there, because one would look awkward, go and do more research and get back to us.

Will leave you 'two love birds' together and in research, no thank you.

Basic kindergarten bible study, we learned 29 years ago there is a mount zion in heaven, and one on earth.

I see this all the time, some scoffer acting like he has some knowledge, then demonstrating his celebrated ignorance, and makes his erroneous teachers look bad, because he sits under them and parrots their "teaching".investigation is not your enemy.

I will leave you to your love fest with uninformed others.
Try and research on your own.
I know research is work, but you and only you can walk out of that ditch of following error.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Fred J said:
""Ha, ha, ha, 'Mt Zion is in Heaven' again??
Probably there are """




Maybe your "teachers" will lead you to believe the truth, that much of earth is a mirror of heaven.
Probably not since they taught you wrong about Mt Sion

Psssst....the ark, the temple, animals, mountains, rivers and plants were ALL IN HEAVEN before their earthly counterparts.
Mock that one.

 

[rebuilder 454]

Yes, when you take it literally in your carnal self and understanding, truly not born again, indeed for you Mont Zion is also in Heaven.

But to us who spiritually discern, scripturally Heavenly Mount Zion and Jerusalem the Holy city of the free, of Sarah, or in other words of Hagar, is rather an 'allegory'. (Galatians4:24)

Now, as for your 'Messianic Jews' words literally you've just added, where in the Bible is written word to word?

Even non of the Apostles and church claimed so, since they were 'equally' saved with the Gentiles under the election of grace and through faith.

They generally with the Gentiles went by the name in the beginning from, 'followers of the way' to 'Christians' and 'church'.

But only the boastful bunch of nobodies and wannabes day dreamers empty vessels of today, claim by themselves so proudly, like some denominational churches.

These counterfeits and imposters like to distinct themselves as 'special people' of GOD in their 'flesh' and unlike 'scripturally in context' and 'spiritually in spirit and truth'.

To such doctrine of theirs comes from the god of this world, who've deceived and blinded them apparently.

As it is written, 'What fellowship do we have with demons and seated at their table.'

Repent, from falling short and under the category of workers of iniquity or lawlessness.

But if you want to continue the same, 'David in NJ' can be your best partner in crime.

Under your goofy, strick, "spiritual blender," "hagar" is an illusion as is Mt Sion.
Not real dynamics but rewritten tools for your false doctrine, to be used as made up props.

All cults claim SPIRITUAL SUPERIORITY.

If you have to so goofily exault yourself into some super spirit, then go against no brainer verses...what kind of "super christian" does that?
Then accuse others that can read as inferior.

Flat out comical.
When do you achieve the next level, (of receiving worship), since you are one notch away from your next narcissitc dynamic. ?