Reviving Biblical Christianity (The Way) Part 2

[marks]

It HAS always seemed strange to me that God can forgive a man his sins only if He kills an innocent man.

Jesus died innocent so we could share His death, even though we are guilty. Like being in the ark. The flood destroys all that is outside the ark (judgment unto death), those inside the ark are safe, and come through this rain of death to a new life in a cleansed world.

If Jesus were not innocent He would not have "survived" His death, He would have been dead because He sinned just like everyone else. Since He had no sin there was no power of death over Him, He is our ark.

We are baptized into Him, into His death. We share His death, like being in the ark, so we can share His new life after the judgment passes.

Concerning holiness (set apart for God's purpose), sharing in Jesus' death sets us apart for God, though we are still in need of renewing. The renewing of the mind is the process in which God brings that separation He induced by joining us to Jesus in His death into our daily behavior, our thoughts and words and actions.

An example would be a priest needs an implement for the temple service, say a shovel for clearing out the altar. The only one available is bent, and he needs it, so he claims it for the temple, and that makes it holy. Still, it's bent, so it doesn't work well. As time goes on, he cleans it, straightens it, an now it both looks and acts holy, but in point of fact, it was made holy when it was claimed for the temple.

It's the same with you.

Much love!

 

[marks]

In that Galatians verse I don’t understand what the last sentence is saying.

Galatians 2:18 KJV
For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.

Having repudiated sin, if I then go on to choose that sin again, I'm doing that to myself. After God rebirths me, gives me a new way, if I return to the old way, that's not God doing it, it's me. Considering that we train/form our minds/brains towards the intention of our choices, we are building ourselves either this way or that way.

"For the motions of sin, which were by the law, did work in our members . . ." (Romans 7:5)

Living according to law/obedience provokes sin in our members (lit. body parts), simply put legalistic living is of the flesh, and provokes the flesh to sin. God freed me from the Law of Sin and Death. If I return to it myself, that's on me.

Galatians 2:16-21 KJV
16) Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
17) But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
18) For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
19) For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20) I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21) I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

This is a discussion concerning being justified by faith in Jesus, and not by works of Law, and that seeking righteousness by works of law frustrates God's grace. Romans 4 gives a very clear teaching how grace and works do not mix or combine to give salvation.

Much love!

 

[marks]

he stirs the pot and provokes others

Yes, I see this a lot, but not in a good way.

to seek out the truth.

I don't see this, I see something very dark, having read his threads for over the past 10 years.

I've seen him mercilessly needle and insult and provoke others, even rather gentle people, until they finally crack, and misspeak (even in a minor way) to see him pounce like a tiger on it's prey, this is NOT Christianity.

Everyone sees what they see . . . I've seen this consistently over the years.

He is very practiced at what he does.

Much love!

 

[MostlyConfused]

Are you saying that God never forgave any sins until after Jesus died on the cross? Show me one passage that shows that God was unable to be merciful because He is so wrathful as to be unforgiving...even as He expects us to be forgiving without sacrifice.

is not our forgiveness dependent on how we forgive others?

Explain God's forgiveness before and after the cross. Then explain God's holiness in His people before and after the cross. Dare to compare.

I sure can’t explain it. Before the cross God had them kill a poor animal (without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness, [unless that same word you were talking about, aphisis? is used there, in which case it begins to make slightly more sense - without the shedding of blood there is no freedom FROM sin?] and yet it never soothed anyone’s conscience because they kept on sinning and had to kill another animal and another and another. And God said He wasn’t pleased about it and yet He TOLD them to do it.
AFTER the cross, it is US who has to be slaughtered, but not so our sins can be forgiven (if men have it right), because according to men, our sins are already forgiven but only because God let them kill innocent Jesus so we could be forgiven.

As to comparing holiness before and after, I can’t even attempt it.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Yeah, none of it makes sense to me. Except this - if you DO win the race and Gods’ holiness comes out of you, THEN your conscience wouldn’t be bothered any more because the consciences of dead men CANT bother them any more.
Still doesn’t do anything to explain buckets and buckets of animal blood for thousands of years.

 

[MostlyConfused]

See what a frankensteinish mess occurs when I use my reasoning?

 

[Episkopos]

Yeah, none of it makes sense to me. Except this - if you DO win the race and Gods’ holiness comes out of you, THEN your conscience wouldn’t be bothered any more because the consciences of dead men CANT bother them any more.
Still doesn’t do anything to explain buckets and buckets of animal blood for thousands of years.

The Hebrew word for sacrifice is karban....which comes from the root Karav meaning to draw near or approach. No one can approach God while in the flesh unless they die. The idea of blood sacrifice means that a life must be given. The sacrifice has to be without blemish or TAMIM...meaning without guile, innocent. Jesus' shed blood gives us access to God...His resurrection lifeblood is given AFTER we sacrifice ourselves...a life for a life.

Another reason why the Jews were to sacrifice was to show the cost of their sins...the soul that sins, it shall die.

None of this was for forgiveness...but to remain God's holy people. Temple sacrifices were about holiness...fulfilling the holiness commandments to love God and cleave to Him.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, I see this a lot, but not in a good way.


I don't see this, I see something very dark, having read his threads for over the past 10 years.

I've seen him mercilessly needle and insult and provoke others, even rather gentle people, until they finally crack, and misspeak (even in a minor way) to see him pounce like a tiger on it's prey, this is NOT Christianity.

Everyone sees what they see . . . I've seen this consistently over the years.

He is very practiced at what he does.

Much love!

All you bring is drama and a bruised ego. And a lot of virtue signalling. No one forces you to troll my threads....and yet you hover and wait for me to say ANYTHING that looks even slightly disapproving. So your accusation is really about yourself and your purpose here.

 

[Episkopos]

I sure can’t explain it. Before the cross God had them kill a poor animal (without the shedding of blood there was no forgiveness, [unless that same word you were talking about, aphisis? is used there, in which case it begins to make slightly more sense - without the shedding of blood there is no freedom FROM sin?] and yet it never soothed anyone’s conscience because they kept on sinning and had to kill another animal and another and another. And God said He wasn’t pleased about it and yet He TOLD them to do it.
AFTER the cross, it is US who has to be slaughtered, but not so our sins can be forgiven (if men have it right), because according to men, our sins are already forgiven but only because God let them kill innocent Jesus so we could be forgiven.

As to comparing holiness before and after, I can’t even attempt it.

Without shedding of blood, there is no holiness. Without Jesus' sacrifice we would need a constant cycle of purification that can never empower us to walk in His holiness. So Jesus' resurrection gives us His LIVING blood to drink in...giving us eternal life and connection to God. We have a ministry of reconciliation...from Christ. We announce that there is a life waiting for us as we surrender our own...we begin as a life FOR a life...then proceed to a life IN a life.

Before Jesus holiness was ritualized as a marker...but in Christ is true holiness.

 

[Lizbeth]

I don’t know Lizbeth, I’ve gone through a lot of his threads and he does not seek you out, you seek him out. You say it’s because you find no one else who teaches about holiness. So you seem to want to learn about it while also claiming it. you seem to want To learn about it while also thinking you can teach about it to the one teaching about it. None of this makes sense to me. You seem stonefaced determined that you will get the man to agree with you or die trying. It’s like…I want to learn from you what you know as you are the only one I’ve found who understands it but I must teach you what you need to know first so you can think everything I think before we begin. It’s like saying, I want to learn from you but first I have to teach you. its almost like you want him to reflect yourself back to you. In the history of the world, (or even cinematic history) has anyone ever climbed mountains and forded streams to get to where a master of some thing or some discipline lived so they could…teach him?

No I'm not seeking to learn from anyone with such problematic doctrines as this - but I always hope to be of help on some of those problematic aspects. Hope spring eternal I guess, although it's been quite a while since I have talked with Episkopos, and I wasn't expecting the conversation to go on this long.

 

[marks]

All you bring is drama and a bruised ego. And a lot of virtue signalling. No one forces you to troll my threads....and yet you hover and wait for me to say ANYTHING that looks even slightly disapproving. So your accusation is really about yourself and your purpose here.

I've not even addressed you. Save your bluster and accusations and projections for someone else.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Without shedding of blood, there is no holiness. Without Jesus' sacrifice we would need a constant cycle of purification that can never empower us to walk in His holiness. So Jesus' resurrection gives us His LIVING blood to drink in...giving us eternal life and connection to God. We have a ministry of reconciliation...from Christ. We announce that there is a life waiting for us as we surrender our own...we begin as a life FOR a life...then proceed to a life IN a life.

Before Jesus holiness was ritualized as a marker...but in Christ is true holiness.

That all makes sense, though still in a tentative way, For the first time ever. I just gave up looking it up online a long time ago and decided I maybe wasn’t meant to understand it if even Protestant mens theology couldn’t explain it to me without sounding like a catholic explanation, which always seem to go around in circles never answering the questions for simple people while also seeming to have parts that seem they must be very wrong.

Without a life for a life/sacrifice, there can be no approach to God in His holiness and with a life there can be. And it is only in His holiness that there is freedom FROM sin. Jesus was the willing sacrifice that makes approach to Gods’ holiness possible (though still terrifying to me - somehow Jesus doesn’t terrify me though even though I’ve thought He IS God). So Jesus died to make the approach possible and since He was willing to die for us in that way to give us true life rather than a temporary misery, and because no flesh can see God and live, and because this life is not so dear we should cling to it, we agree to give up this temporary for that eternal and glorious and everlasting.

It still makes me feel selfish that I never seem to agree to anything unless it seems good to me rather than simply because God wills it. I think He has begun to prove me in this though as I’m at a place where I’m willing to suffer or be comforted, whichever He desires. Both seem somehow alike to me now. (That probably cant make sense to anyone else.)

Thank you. You know, I wasn’t really trying to explain, but was mostly saying, it’s unexplainable and absurd whenever anyone DOES try to explain it and proving that by example.

 

[MostlyConfused]

No I'm not seeking to learn from anyone with such problematic doctrines as this - but I always hope to be of help on some of those problematic aspects. Hope spring eternal I guess, although it's been quite a while since I have talked with Episkopos, and I wasn't expecting the conversation to go on this long.

I’ve read many of your words and your own words belie you, if Ive understood them. I think you either get slightly softer, more agreeable and less accusatory to draw him back in or to draw others to you because you want to “catch him”and destroy his reputation in front of others or else you get braver and looser of intent when others show up.
I’ve read a lot of the back and forth on his threads and you won’t find a consort in me for your seemingly never ending harassing behavior. I don’t believe you that you are just here to try help everyone. I think you wear a mask and I was wrong to believe there was any gentle sincerity in you as regards this man. This is my opinion and I don’t want to waste precious time speaking with you unless and until I see a change. I suppose you will hate me now since I’ve spoken candidly but things are being discussed here that arent to be treated in this manner where you want to dominate and crush because your feelings are hurt that no one will parrot and reflect you back to yourself. It’s hard enough for me to focus in the state I find myself in a lot of the time WITHOUT purposeful chaos thrown in. I am old and don’t have as much time as I used to have left to me. In fact, I don’t think any of us have much time left. I will listen to him. He is here to help me and I will gratefully accept his sincere help.