Rock-solid truth

[Matthias]

From my X / Twitter “For you” feed this good afternoon -

“What are the odds that one man could fulfill over 300 specific prophecies written centuries before His birth?

Mathematician Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 prophecies coming true in one person by chance: The odds: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (10^{17})
The visual: Fill the entire state of Texas two feet deep in silver dollars, mark just ONE, blindfold someone, and have them pick it up on their very first try.

That is the statistical likelihood of just eight. Jesus fulfilled hundreds.

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2)
Pierced hands and feet before crucifixion even existed (Psalm 22:16)
Betrayed for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12)
Raised from the dead (Psalm 16:10)

This isn’t coincidence. It’s God’s fingerprint across history. Share this to remind someone that the Bible is rock-solid truth!”

Dr. Kent Hovind (@Hovind_Official) on X

What are the odds that one man could fulfill over 300 specific prophecies written centuries before His birth? Mathematician Peter Stoner calculated the probability of just 8 prophecies coming true in one person by chance: The odds: 1 in 100,000,000,000,000,000 (10^{17}) The visual: Fill the ent…

x.com

Former Christians, this gentle reminder is for you. Weak and wavering Christians, this gentle reminder is also for you.

Jesus of Nazareth is the promised Messiah, Son of the living God.

 

[Riven]

Kent Hovind. Now there's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years. Last I heard he was in federal prison.

 

[Matthias]

Kent Hovind. Now there's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years. Last I heard he was in federal prison.

I looked it up. He was released from prison in 2015.

Dr. Stoner’s mathematical computation and Hovind’s message?

 

[PeterAndroz]

Kent Hovind. Now there's a name I haven't heard in about 20 years. Last I heard he was in federal prison.

Doesn't stop him from being saved :)

 

[Riven]

Dr. Stoner’s mathematical computation and Hovind’s message?

The computation is unnecessary if there is even one prophecy that was not fulfilled. Many Jews reject Christ as therr messiah because there are discrepancies with regards to these prophecies, fulfilled or not fulfilled.

As for Hovind, I think he's a good orator. I watched several of his videos on YouTube 20 years ago. But like many with a silver tongue, I think he's just your average con man.

 

[Matthias]

The computation is unnecessary if there is even one prophecy that was not fulfilled. Many Jews reject Christ as therr messiah because there are discrepancies with regards to these prophecies, fulfilled or not fulfilled.

The unbelieving Jews haven’t seen, nor have they understood, that the Messiah has two advents. Have you?

As for Hovind, I think he's a good orator. I watched several of his videos on YouTube 20 years ago. But like many with a silver tongue, I think he's just your average con man.

I thought he was dead.

 

[Matthias]

“In case you’re questioning whether Professor Stoner’s math was wrong, H. Harold Hartzler, PhD, of the American Scientific Affiliation, Goshen College, writes in the forward of Stoner’s book:

The manuscript for Science Speaks has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members and by the Executive Council of the same group and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific method presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound and Professor Stoner has applied them in a proper and convincing way.”

The Statistical Probability of Jesus Fulfilling the Messianic Prophecies

With all the religions out there, how can you know that Christianity is true? How can you know whether the Bible actually gives the accurate and correct story of the world? How do you know that Chr…

nickcady.org

 

[Riven]

The unbelieving Jews haven’t seen, nor have they understood, that the Messiah has two advents. Have you?

I don't know anything about the prophecies.

I thought he was dead.

You should probably do a little research into the people you're quoting. No one has anything good to say about him.

Conversation with Gemini:

"During Kent Hovind's trial (which led to his federal prison sentence), some of his staff and workers testified against his claims regarding his ministry.

While Hovind argued that the roughly 30 people working for him at his Dinosaur Adventure Land theme park and Creation Science Evangelism were "missionaries" rather than employees, his staff testified to the contrary. Specifically, they stated that:

• They punched time cards.
  
  
• They took regular vacation and sick days.
  
  
• They were docked pay if they spent too much time on personal phone calls.

This testimony contradicted Hovind's defense that his operation was strictly a non-taxable ministry belonging to God, helping establish that his workers were standard paid employees and contributing to his conviction on multiple counts of tax fraud."

 

[Matthias]

I don't know anything about the prophecies.

Christians need to know all about the prophecies. Since you don’t know anything about them, why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?

You should probably do a little research into the people you're quoting. No one has anything good to say about him.

I have. He was very popular in Southern Baptist circles when I was a Southern Baptist. Why do you think I quoted him?

Conversation with Gemini:

"During Kent Hovind's trial (which led to his federal prison sentence), some of his staff and workers testified against his claims regarding his ministry.

While Hovind argued that the roughly 30 people working for him at his Dinosaur Adventure Land theme park and Creation Science Evangelism were "missionaries" rather than employees, his staff testified to the contrary. Specifically, they stated that:

• They punched time cards.
  
  
• They took regular vacation and sick days.
  
  
• They were docked pay if they spent too much time on personal phone calls.

This testimony contradicted Hovind's defense that his operation was strictly a non-taxable ministry belonging to God, helping establish that his workers were standard paid employees and contributing to his conviction on multiple counts of tax fraud."

I was aware of most, if not all, of that. It doesn’t have anything to do with Dr. Stoner’s computation, nor with Hovind’s point.

 

[Riven]

Christians need to know all about the prophecies. Since you don’t know anything about them, why do you believe Jesus is the Messiah?

I've learned to listen to my gut. It's never steered me wrong.

I have. He was very popular in Southern Baptist circles when I was a Southern Baptist. Why do you think I quoted him?

I got kicked out of a southern Baptist school at the age of four. My introduction to Christianity as it were.

I was aware of most, if not all, of that. It doesn’t have anything to do with Dr. Stoner’s computation, nor with Hovind’s point.

True enough. But who you quote does matter.

 

[Matthias]

I've learned to listen to my gut. It's never steered me wrong.

The apostles didn’t. They were persuaded that the prophecies written in the Hebrew Bible about the Messiah were fulfilled by Jesus. None of the apostles trusted their gut or asked their readers to trust theirs.

I got kicked out of a southern Baptist school at the age of four. My introduction to Christianity as it were.

Does that experience prejudice you against Southern Baptist pastors / scholars?

True enough. But who you quote does matter.

What truly matters is whether or not what is said is true.

If I know someone I’m speaking with is turned off by a particular denomination or a particular scholar, I would refrain from quoting that source, gather information from the person regarding what sources he or she is open to, and use that.

What Hovind said has been said by a wide variety of sources. It’s a fairly common apologetic.

I haven’t thought about Hovind for a long time. (I told you, I thought he was dead.) Why did I quote him?

First, it was suggested to me by X. Second, it wasn’t my work. Third, I provided a link so that anyone who is interested can go straight to the source and read it for themselves. Fourth, it has to do with my credibility.

Dr. Stoner’s computation is very persuasive. Hovind’s conclusion is logical.

 

[Riven]

The apostles didn’t. They were persuaded that the prophecies written in the Hebrew Bible about the Messiah were fulfilled by Jesus. None of the apostles trusted their gut or asked their readers to trust theirs.

They also had the advantage of witnessing the miracles.

Does that experience prejudice you against Southern Baptist pastors / scholars?

Not at all.

 

[Matthias]

The computation is unnecessary if there is even one prophecy that was not fulfilled.

This is an argument used by unbelieving Jews in particular and unbelievers in general. You’ve said that you’re a believer. Why did you use their argument in your response to me?

 

[Matthias]

I don’t know anything about either of the men speaking in this video clip @Riven. I don’t even know their names. Do you? For all I (we?) know, they could be used car salesmen masquerading as scholars.

They‘re talking about Dr. Stoner’s argument for Jesus of Nazareth being the prophesied Messiah based on the mathematical probability. (Even if they later try to sell us a very low mileage 2001 Cadillac - driven only to church on Sundays by a sweet little old lady in Pasadena whom everyone loved and adored - it doesn’t matter. It’s Dr. Stoner’s argument that we want to investigate and evaluate.)

 

[Riven]

This is an argument used by unbelieving Jews in particular and unbelievers in general. You’ve said that you’re a believer. Why did you use their argument in your response to me?

Because it's a rational argument. In order to determine what's true, we have to examine the evidence from all sides. Or do you think we should simply ignore any and all discrepancies?

 

[Matthias]

“In case you’re questioning whether Professor Stoner’s math was wrong, H. Harold Hartzler, PhD, of the American Scientific Affiliation, Goshen College, writes in the forward of Stoner’s book:

The manuscript for Science Speaks has been carefully reviewed by a committee of the American Scientific Affiliation members and by the Executive Council of the same group and has been found, in general, to be dependable and accurate in regard to the scientific method presented. The mathematical analysis included is based upon principles of probability which are thoroughly sound and Professor Stoner has applied them in a proper and convincing way.”

The Statistical Probability of Jesus Fulfilling the Messianic Prophecies

With all the religions out there, how can you know that Christianity is true? How can you know whether the Bible actually gives the accurate and correct story of the world? How do you know that Chr…

nickcady.org

@Riven did you question whether Dr. Stoner’s math was wrong? I did. I javen’t done the calculation myself. Anyone can claim anything. I wanted to know if anyone else had questioned it and, if they did, what did they do about it.

Should we trust Dr. Hartzler? Should we look to see if anyone else has confirmed the math? Should we look to see if anyone has shown the math to be in error? Should we do the calculations ourselves?

 

[Matthias]

Because it's a rational argument.

It’s a rational argument against Jesus being the prophesied Messiah. Did you find it persuasive or unpersuasive?

In order to determine what's true, we have to examine the evidence from all sides.

Yes. Is that what you were asking me to address?

Or do you think we should simply ignore any and all discrepancies?

No, I don’t. I would ask what discrepancies you think there are, or might be, but you’ve already told me that you don’t know anything about them.

Your gut is no defense for anyone but you against the argument of the unbelievers.

 

[Matthias]

I’ve mentioned this to you before @ Riven -> Always look for the strongest argument you can find against your position.

Here’s another short video on the subject. Once again, I don’t know anything at all about the ministry that produced it.

What is the value of this video? It examines arguments for and against Dr. Stoner’s argument. After listening to the video, do we agree or disagree with the conclusion that is drawn? Did we come up with some questions in our mind that the ministry didn’t ask but we think should be asked?

What about our atheist friend? Is he persuaded by the argument? Does he have questions about the presentation? Does he see an error? Does he have questions that the presenter didn’t address?

 

[Riven]

It’s a rational argument against Jesus being the prophesied Messiah. Did you find it persuasive or unpersuasive?

I remain undecided. Although I do wonder, if we are going to rely on fulfilled prophecies to justify the divinity of Jesus, then what do we do with any prophecies that were not fulfilled?

Yes. Is that what you were asking me to address?

Yes.

No, I don’t. I would ask what discrepancies you think there are, or might be, but you’ve already told me that you don’t know anything about them.

Nothing specific. I couldn't tell you which prophecies haven't been fulfilled, but I have heard it mentioned over the years by orthodox Jews as a reason why they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Your gut is no defense for anyone but you against the argument of the unbelievers.

It's not something they can readily argue against. Everyone has gut feelings and they usually steer you in the right direction.

 

[Matthias]

I remain undecided.

That’s a dangerous place for you to be. You’re vulnerable to being persuaded that Jesus isn’t the prophesied Messiah.

Although I do wonder, if we are going to rely on fulfilled prophecies to justify the divinity of Jesus, then what do we do with any prophecies that were not fulfilled?

Christians have to be prepared with an answer to that question.

Yes.

Thanks for making that clear to me.

Nothing specific. I couldn't tell you which prophecies haven't been fulfilled, but I have heard it mentioned over the years by orthodox Jews as a reason why they didn't believe Jesus was the messiah.

Even without knowing any specifics about what they told you, they are right that there are some prophecies which Jesus hasn’t fulfilled yet. Dr. Stoner’s argument asks them to think about those prophecies which Jesus has fulfilled. There is still a hurdle to be cleared. (And that is where the second advent comes in.)

It's not something they can readily argue against. Everyone has gut feelings …

Gut feelings are based more on feelings than they are on facts.

… and they usually steer you in the right direction.

”Usually” isn’t good enough. There is too much at stake.

I’m not going to gamble my eternal well-being on what your gut tells you and you shouldn’t gamble your eternal well-being on what a believer or unbeliever’s gut tells him or her.