Role of women in church and the household

[RaddSpencer]

(koulourakia_girl;48574)
God being Male: What is Spirit then? Spirit has no distinction. It is beyond anything we could ever comprehend...The only way in which we can know God the Father is through the ways in which He reveals Himself to us...whether it be through His Son, The Spirit, The Word, His appearances...remember Moses' experience, when he begged God to show him His Glory...all Moses got was the back view as God passed by, for no man can see His face and live. To see God in His pure form, is to be in the Spirit yourself. God may appear in any form He wishes...the fact that He has always manifested Himself, come down to us, in a male form, does NOT mean that He is essentially male! We are talking Spirit here, not physical terms....When we are told that "God is Spirit", what do you take that to mean? I take it to mean that God, in His essential form, is beyond anything we could possibly understand on our own, or from experience....We, as human beings, have that spiritual aspect to us, but we also have a physical component. God is pure Spirit...or are you saying that He is also both? That is illogical. I think you're compounding the idea of the Trinity into one single being...whilst they are one, they are also three distinct and seperate personalities....Three different and specific ways in which God is 'manifested' (I know that's not the right word, but I'm not feeling too well).
Well I have a spirit too you know, and I am a guy. It is possible that my spirit has no inherent gender (and that yours does not either).

 

[Jackie D]

(RaddSpencer;48570)
I think you are being too hard on us guys. I don't know who you have been talking to (or which guy(s) have/has mistreated you), but most guys aren't interested in controlling their wives like a Radio Controlled Car.I mean, come on, why does your husband have to do everything first? Why does he have to submit to God fully before you submit to him? Why can't you teach your husband how to obey God by obeying him? If you obey him, and he is disobedient to God --- he will end up feeling like a heel and change his ways. I've seen this attitude in a lot of women. The husband has to do everything right and earn respect etc... before the wife even considers obedience. This just places a heavy load on the husband, and I don't think that is fair. Maybe women should have some initiative too.Its only fair if both the husband and wife learn how to lead and follow (respectively) at the same time.
Again, I repeat I love Christ because He loved me first. Paul states "Husbands love your wives as Christ loves the church" What did Christ do? He served, He gave all of Himself for us to show us His great love. Women are to blame as well in this mess of churchiosity and religion that places men over them as if they are incapable of making one decision without a man telling them how, what, when and where. It is how they were raised they raise their daughters to be the same. And they raise their sons to be domineering over women, as if that is how Christ loved us, when it is not.I do not believe it is this way in every home, church or society...but it is more on that side of the spectrum than the other. It isn't only the unbelieving world that has these views but the "church" world as well. I am not saying that my husband must love me first. I am saying that my husband must submit to Christ first and submitting to Christ first puts him in a position where He exemplifies the qualities of Christ's character which is to love the wife as Christ loves him. And the wife, a God fearing woman, would find herself drawn to this as she understands the love that Christ has for her and these qualities would be very attractive to her. She would be hard pressed to ignore him or refuse to love him in return..she would be hard pressed not to find herself gladly and joyfully submitting to her husband...and this is the way it should be in my opinion. It isn't a hard on men position but one that I see clearly as being the order of it.Now as far as women and their roles in the church. I have been a member of a Christian forum of 50,000 members who are so indoctrinated in "church" they are incapable of seeing the forrest through the trees. The gender topic becomes so heated with not only men attempting to convince women like myself that I should be seen and not heard, but the women do it as well. I have never in all of my life seen such miserable people, full of false 'joy' as these who are seeking to keep their traditions over the true Spirit of God. Their denominational doctrines have become gods to them and they will verbally trash anyone who has a point of view that is more in alignment with what God is really saying about these matters. And I mean they get down right wicked about it. Now this place does not appear to be this way and I am so very glad to have found it. I am not trashing anyone, nor am I being hard on anyone. I am stating a point of view that is more willing to see equality in both men and women and that the true head of the church and of the family unit is Christ, Himself. Should we all place Him as the head, there would not be these long drawn out discussions that on a turn of a coin can become heated and hateful. blessings

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Jackie D;48590)
Women are to blame as well in this mess of churchiosity and religion that places men over them as if they are incapable of making one decision without a man telling them how, what, when and where. It is how they were raised they raise their daughters to be the same. And they raise their sons to be domineering over women, as if that is how Christ loved us, when it is not.I am not saying that my husband must love me first. I am saying that my husband must submit to Christ first and submitting to Christ first puts him in a position where He exemplifies the qualities of Christ's character which is to love the wife as Christ loves him. And the wife, a God fearing woman, would find herself drawn to this as she understands the love that Christ has for her and these qualities would be very attractive to her. She would be hard pressed to ignore him or refuse to love him in return..she would be hard pressed not to find herself gladly and joyfully submitting to her husband...and this is the way it should be in my opinion. It isn't a hard on men position but one that I see clearly as being the order of it.Now as far as women and their roles in the church. I have been a member of a Christian forum of 50,000 members who are so indoctrinated in "church" they are incapable of seeing the forrest through the trees. The gender topic becomes so heated with not only men attempting to convince women like myself that I should be seen and not heard, but the women do it as well. I have never in all of my life seen such miserable people, full of false 'joy' as these who are seeking to keep their traditions over the true Spirit of God. Their denominational doctrines have become gods to them and they will verbally trash anyone who has a point of view that is more in alignment with what God is really saying about these matters. And I mean they get down right wicked about it. blessings
Churchiosity (aka pride) is all over the church today, and it takes many different forms. If Jesus came back he would call the American church:"First Church of the Pharisees"So, its only natural, for this church to have some men with a superiority complex. However, I wonder if those same men would have the same opinion if God turned them into women overnight.Interestingly enough -- I have a question for you (and any other women around here).What is "domineering". When does a husband cross the line from being in charge to being domineering? (I'm single, so I have no clue about this).

 

[koulourakia_girl]

(Red_Letters88;48450)
Lol, btw Should we treat Hillary like a man?...that is, if she becomes president. .....you dont have to answer, I already know
what??? She's not a man???? ;-)

 

[HammerStone]

Look at it this way folks, Yeshua loved his bride so much he laid down his life for her. He died a death that never had to happen. He even bent down to wash her feet (John 13).I'll take my chances with a woman speaking the truth any day.Acts 18:26
And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.
Priscilla was named first on several occasions for a reason. Here we clearly have a women - in *gasp* the Apostle Paul's letter that is expounding (teaching/preaching) the way of God!John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
It's not conditional on sex. If you listen to a wolf among the sheep over a female shepherd with the truth because of sex you're in trouble.

 

[Jackie D]

(RaddSpencer;48647)
Churchiosity (aka pride) is all over the church today, and it takes many different forms. If Jesus came back he would call the American church:"First Church of the Pharisees"So, its only natural, for this church to have some men with a superiority complex. However, I wonder if those same men would have the same opinion if God turned them into women overnight.Interestingly enough -- I have a question for you (and any other women around here).
well said, I especially like the title. I once used "Pharisees of New" to describe a group I was speaking with..it didn't go over too well...hehe
What is "domineering". When does a husband cross the line from being in charge to being domineering? (I'm single, so I have no clue about this).
Webster's Revised Unabridged DictionaryDom`i*neer", v. i. & t. [imp. & p. p. Domineered; p. pr. & vb. n. Domineering.] [F. dominer, L. dominari: cf. OD. domineren to feast luxuriously. See Dominate, v. t.] To rule with insolence or arbitrary sway; to play the master; to be overbearing; to tyrannize; to bluster; to swell with conscious superiority or haughtiness; -- often with over; as, to domineer over dependents. And so that you don't find yourself in trouble with your future wife, I would probably use a different word than being in "charge";)As for how and when the line is crossed, I would say you need to discuss this with the Lord and with your future wife....be blessed

 

[Jackie D]

(Denver;48728)
Look at it this way folks, Yeshua loved his bride so much he laid down his life for her. He died a death that never had to happen. He even bent down to wash her feet (John 13).I'll take my chances with a woman speaking the truth any day.Acts 18:26Priscilla was named first on several occasions for a reason. Here we clearly have a women - in *gasp* the Apostle Paul's letter that is expounding (teaching/preaching) the way of God!John 14:17It's not conditional on sex. If you listen to a wolf among the sheep over a female shepherd with the truth because of sex you're in trouble.
nice post Denver

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Jackie D;48750)
And so that you don't find yourself in trouble with your future wife, I would probably use a different word than being in "charge";)
. "Eternal slavery" was my next choice, I'm glad you cleared that up for me.

HEHEHEHEHEHE!!Anyway, I'm glad that this thread is talking about both wives and the church. There is a mountain of similarity. Ive been in many churches (different denominations), and there really are only two kinds of churches.1. Holy Spirit moves the church2. The Church tells the Holy Spirit what to doWhich do you think is the better church -- Heh? Its amazing how people can know everything about the bible, and yet be clueless (just like the pharisees). Those guys knew everything about the old testament. They were basically equivalent to Professors of Theology in today's terms. So they knew the most about Jesus, and yet, the still rejected Him.And we all know what Jesus thought about those "white washed tombs". Luke 11:37-5437 When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38 But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised. 39 Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40 You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41 But give what is inside the dish to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.42 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone. 43 "Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces. 44 "Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."45 One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also." 46 Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them. 47 "Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48 So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49 Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.'50 Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51 from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all. 52 "Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."53 When Jesus left there, the Pharisees and the teachers of the law began to oppose him fiercely and to besiege him with questions, 54 waiting to catch him in something he might say.God must have overwhelming love for His church. I don't understand why He tolerates these "First Church of the Pharisees" congregations -- It blows my mind (in every possible way).God knows what He is doing. He doesn't care how many "religious" bonus points you have in some church. He doesn't care if you know everything about the Bible under the sun. God wants you to be knowledgeable (yes), but this is what He truly desires (aka the whole point of Christianity): 36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38This is the first and greatest commandment. 39And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'40All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." Matthew 22:36-40So, honestly, if a husband and wife love each other as themselves -- its all going to work out. If the husband wants his wife to submit in some way -- she will learn how to do it. If the wife needs her husband in some way -- he will learn how to satisfy her need. If you don't have Love in the marriage -- you don't have anything.

 

[RaddSpencer]

(Denver;48728)
Priscilla was named first on several occasions for a reason. Here we clearly have a women - in *gasp* the Apostle Paul's letter that is expounding (teaching/preaching) the way of God!
23And after he (Paul) had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples. 24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.Acts 18:23-26Apollos is fascinating to me because:He was a fervent Jew (from Alexandria Egypt), who was highly educated in the old testament, and he knew only of what John the Baptist had said about Jesus Christ. He was from a far away place, and yet he had so much faith in Jesus Christ that this incomplete knowledge didn't stop him. You never know from which direction the Holy Spirit is going to come from (God can use ANYBODY).I mean, this guy came out of nowhere and he didn't have all the information (the internet didn't exist back then

), but his heart was in the right place, and God used his daughters (Priscilla and Aquila) to straighten out his knowledge.. So why should we question what God has done?Women were the first to know of Jesus's resurrection. This is one of the many internal markings of historical authenticity for the new testament. (If Christianity was a bogus fabrication, men would have had the pleasure of knowing about the resurrection first).5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. Matthew 28:5-8God used a woman to save all of Israel. Her name was Esther. 9 Hathach went back and reported to Esther what Mordecai had said. 10 Then she instructed him to say to Mordecai, 11 "All the king's officials and the people of the royal provinces know that for any man or woman who approaches the king in the inner court without being summoned the king has but one law: that he be put to death. The only exception to this is for the king to extend the gold scepter to him and spare his life. But thirty days have passed since I was called to go to the king." 12 When Esther's words were reported to Mordecai, 13 he sent back this answer: "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. 14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?" 15 Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: 16 "Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish." Esther 4:9-16 1 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. 2 When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter. 3 Then the king asked, "What is it, Queen Esther? What is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be given you." 4 "If it pleases the king," replied Esther, "let the king, together with Haman, come today to a banquet I have prepared for him." Esther 5:1-4 1 So the king and Haman went to dine with Queen Esther, 2 and as they were drinking wine on that second day, the king again asked, "Queen Esther, what is your petition? It will be given you. What is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be granted." 3 Then Queen Esther answered, "If I have found favor with you, O king, and if it pleases your majesty, grant me my life—this is my petition. And spare my people—this is my request. 4 For I and my people have been sold for destruction and slaughter and annihilation. If we had merely been sold as male and female slaves, I would have kept quiet, because no such distress would justify disturbing the king." 5 King Xerxes asked Queen Esther, "Who is he? Where is the man who has dared to do such a thing?" 6 Esther said, "The adversary and enemy is this vile Haman." Esther 7:1-6----- Lets just say that things did not end well for Haman. God has used women throughout the bible to carry out His work. Its not that hard to find examples.

 

[bullfighter]

(RaddSpencer;48792)
23And after he (Paul) had spent some time there, he departed, and went over all the country of Galatia and Phrygia in order, strengthening all the disciples. 24And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. 25This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. 26And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.Acts 18:23-26Apollos is fascinating to me because:He was a fervent Jew (from Alexandria Egypt), who was highly educated in the old testament, and he knew only of what John the Baptist had said about Jesus Christ. He was from a far away place, and yet he had so much faith in Jesus Christ that this incomplete knowledge didn't stop him. You never know from which direction the Holy Spirit is going to come from (God can use ANYBODY).I mean, this guy came out of nowhere and he didn't have all the information (the internet didn't exist back then

), but his heart was in the right place, and God used his daughters (Priscilla and Aquila) to straighten out his knowledge.. So why should we question what God has done?Women were the first to know of Jesus's resurrection. This is one of the many internal markings of historical authenticity for the new testament. (If Christianity was a bogus fabrication, men would have had the pleasure of knowing about the resurrection first).5 But the angel answered and said to the women, “Do not be afraid, for I know that you seek Jesus who was crucified. 6 He is not here; for He is risen, as He said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay. 7 And go quickly and tell His disciples that He is risen from the dead, and indeed He is going before you into Galilee; there you will see Him. Behold, I have told you.”8 So they went out quickly from the tomb with fear and great joy, and ran to bring His disciples word. Matthew 28:5-8God used a woman to save all of Israel. Her name was Esther. 9 Hathach went back and reported to Esther what Mordecai had said. 10 Then she instructed him to say to Mordecai, 11 "All the king's officials and the people of the royal provinces know that for any man or woman who approaches the king in the inner court without being summoned the king has but one law: that he be put to death. The only exception to this is for the king to extend the gold scepter to him and spare his life. But thirty days have passed since I was called to go to the king." 12 When Esther's words were reported to Mordecai, 13 he sent back this answer: "Do not think that because you are in the king's house you alone of all the Jews will escape. 14 For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance for the Jews will arise from another place, but you and your father's family will perish. And who knows but that you have come to royal position for such a time as this?" 15 Then Esther sent this reply to Mordecai: 16 "Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me. Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day. I and my maids will fast as you do. When this is done, I will go to the king, even though it is against the law. And if I perish, I perish." Esther 4:9-16 1 On the third day Esther put on her royal robes and stood in the inner court of the palace, in front of the king's hall. The king was sitting on his royal throne in the hall, facing the entrance. 2 When he saw Queen Esther standing in the court, he was pleased with her and held out to her the gold scepter that was in his hand. So Esther approached and touched the tip of the scepter. 3 Then the king asked, "What is it, Queen Esther? What is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be given you." 4 "If it pleases the king," replied Esther, "let the king, together with Haman, come today to a banquet I have prepared for him." Esther 5:1-4 1 So the king and Haman went to dine with Queen Esther, 2 and as they were drinking wine on that second day, the king again asked, "Queen Esther, what is your petition? It will be given you. What is your request? Even up to half the kingdom, it will be granted." 3 Then Queen Esther answered, "If I have found favor with you, O king, and if it pleases your majesty, grant me my life—this is my petition. And spare my people—this is my request. 4 For I and my people have been sold for destruction and slaughter and annihilation. If we had merely been sold as male and female slaves, I would have kept quiet, because no such distress would justify disturbing the king." 5 King Xerxes asked Queen Esther, "Who is he? Where is the man who has dared to do such a thing?" 6 Esther said, "The adversary and enemy is this vile Haman." Esther 7:1-6----- Lets just say that things did not end well for Haman. God has used women throughout the bible to carry out His work. Its not that hard to find examples.
god used woman in many great places,and we will make our own interpitation to a man been the head and the woman summit and the woman be quit in church..like many other things we can commit to what we believe then.is this what you all are saying

 

[Hope]

(Hope;48519)
Hello!!I am new around here. I have read the post and I just wanted to share some information with all of you.Isaiah 30 1 Woe to the rebellious children, saith the LORD, that take counsel, but not of me; and that cover with a covering (4541), but not of my spirit, that they may add sin to sin: There is a lot of wisdom in that verse, for those with "eyes to see".Word COVERING #4541 (Strong's Hebrew Lexicon), maccekah mas-say-kaw' from 5258; properly, a pouring over, i.e. fusion of metal (especially a cast image); by implication, a libation, i.e. league; concretely a coverlet (as if poured out):--covering, molten (image), vailNow, over Corinthia it was common for women to cover their heads. But why?. It was a way of saying that they where not available. But on the other hand, some men were getting instrucctions from Jews who practiced Judaísm. That is why 1 Corinthians 11:7 says: "For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man". Let see something more:Genesis 126 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.If you did not understand yet, as it is, I am sure in time you will.Now, did women shaved their? YES!. Why? It had to do with paganism and prostitution. Maybe you would like to learn a little more.(I cannot post links yet, but I will post them next time)You may also be able to learn from history that some women would go into the church claiming they spoke "in languages" and claiming they could "prophesy" because they wanted to be like Pythia. In a way they thought they would get "respect" from man. Romans 122 And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Ok ... here are the links to some information:[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythia[/url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx-4m3rhVH0&feature=related

 

[Jackie D]

Radd said:
Which do you think is the better church -- Heh? Its amazing how people can know everything about the bible, and yet be clueless (just like the pharisees). Those guys knew everything about the old testament. They were basically equivalent to Professors of Theology in today's terms. So they knew the most about Jesus, and yet, the still rejected Him.
this reminds me of what Paul spoke of regarding being a simple man who knew one thing, the love of Christ. He spoke of the educated and the intellectual men of his day who confused and complicated and were hard of learning the simplicity of faith in Christ because their minds over-ruled their hearts. (or something on that order) History always repeats itself and some things just never change...sad but true!

 

[marksman]

Hi Beck,You might know my wife Anne Marks. She taught at Northside Christian College all of the nineties. I studied at Latrobe Uni from 91-96. I read your blog. Some very good stuff there.Can I suggest as a teacher of English, that you don't underline the main body of the text as that is usually reserved for headings or emphasis. A couple of points. I have studied NT church leadership and life and committed it to paper. You will find it all at http://churchalive66.googlepages.comThe power of man over women was as a result of sin as you rightly said. With regards to the believer, the purpose of salvation is to redeem us from the curse of sin. Therefore, the christian man no longer expresses himself under the terms set out in the OT after sin entered.Under grace, the wife becomes a helpmeet as the Hebrew says, an aid. There is no sense of "power over" here.In regards to leadership of the local congregation, one cannot refer to the OT to justify women fulfilling that role. The NT gives us plenty of advice on this one and it is clearly the province of older men (see my website). In the NT church they did not have women's meetings, sunday school, worship teams, paid pastor leadership etc. What they did have was families meeting together in their homes for meals, fellowship, teaching and prayer. The older women's main role was to disciple the younger women and teach them how to be good wives. Because hospitality was big in the NT church, women were required to provide a welcoming environment for the visitors to the household with welcoming surroundings and good food. This wasn't men having authority over women but women fulfilling their gifting of hospitality. In addition,women can be involved is the administration of the gifts of the Spirit that are given by the HS to whomever he chooses, male, female adult or children. This however, does not require anyone to be in leadership for this to happen. We need to get away from the idea that there is a hierarchy of gifts and ministries, making some more important than others. That is a modern interpretation invented to give a few power over the many. There is no such concept in the NT. All ministries are vital and all are important.Eldership in the NT is the word "diakonos" which means service and literally to wait on tables. Leadership in the NT again is different to leadership today. In the NT it is "service to". Today it is generally "power over" which is quite wrong. One final thought. Joel 2 v 28 has nothing at all to do with the leadership of the local congregation.

 

[treeoflife]

I think that if more churches taught rolls of women, morning services would be much tastier. Esepcially if they teach that they should bring crescent rolls. Mmm.

 

[Jackie D]

marksman said:
In regards to leadership of the local congregation, one cannot refer to the OT to justify women fulfilling that role. The NT gives us plenty of advice on this one and it is clearly the province of older men (see my website). In the NT church they did not have women's meetings, sunday school, worship teams, paid pastor leadership etc. What they did have was families meeting together in their homes for meals, fellowship, teaching and prayer. The older women's main role was to disciple the younger women and teach them how to be good wives. Because hospitality was big in the NT church, women were required to provide a welcoming environment for the visitors to the household with welcoming surroundings and good food. This wasn't men having authority over women but women fulfilling their gifting of hospitality.
I can't quite put my finger on it but there is something that disturbs me about these statements. Marksman, would you mind elaborating, especially the part about the OT and referencing the role of women within congregations? thank you

 

[everlastinglife]

(Wakka;47934)
This topic has been tickling my fancy (lol) for quite some time. My church really emphasizes on this. That the husband is the head of the family, and the pastor of the family. I actually can see a hierarchy of power here.Thats Gods plan.
God > Pastor > Husband > Family
1 Corinthians 14:34-35Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.I can see why this is important. God had set up a perfect system of marriage, but our way of life in America has perverted it. This is why we see so many dysfunctional marriages and divorces.Note: The husband cannot dictate the family, he cannot force the members to do things that go against God. He cannot be tyrannical to the wife, but instead take care of her and love her.Now I believe that women should wear dresses, and head coverings (if hair is short). This is due to respect for the Lord. Same goes to men tucking in their shirts, and looking clean. We're the body of Christ, we must present ourselves in a way to glorify the Lord.These things are works based, it does nothing for you. We should be presentable living sacrifices to God.

Now what are your opinions?The Bible does tell us how to live, we just become so holy and full of works we forget Jesus destroyed the works of satan for us.

 

[marksman]

In the study I have done on NT leadership I contacted many of the current leadership crop in Australia and read their material. Almost without exception, they referred to some OT texts to justify what they were doing, but then ignored what the NT says.In addition, the benchmark for NT living and church life is found in the NT, both in the gospels where Jesus set out how we are to live and the letters for church government and how we are to deal with each other. Apart from the prophetic parts about the coming Messiah, the OT is a book relevant to the Jews. It can only be used in relation to the church as metaphors but should never usurp the authority of the NT.I get the most out of the OT through a christian friend who lives in Jerusalem and runs a ministry to bring Jews back to Israel. In his weekly newsletters he tells us what is happening in Israel and then quotes a verse from the OT in relation to it. I can't tell you how many times the verse has come alive as a result because it is directly applied to the Jews and their situation and as a result I understand what it means.We are told that teachers are gift from Christ to the church (Ephesians 4 v 11)and their ministry is obviously to teach. We should expect the teacher to have insight and revelation that the average christian does not, otherwise there is no point to having such a ministry. Most of the preaching done by pastors is not teaching, as there is very little depth in it as I have discovered having studied many saints who are gifted as teachers. Generally speaking, a teaching will always challenge the status quo as much of what they say is prophetic, so they are not accepted, as pastors don't like their little kingdom's disturbed. If it is they might have to give up their position of power and control. When God annointed me with a teaching gift, he gave me very clear instructions that I was to focus entirely on the word of God, not man's thoughts or tradition. To do justice to my ministry, I not only search the scriptures but I also search the history books relating to the church. When the history books say the same as the NT scriptures, I don't accept any other source of information, unless it agrees with the scriptures and the history books. You will see this in my website on the topic the address of which is in an earlier post. Whe I studies a women's role on the church, I did so from the perspective of what the scritpures said, its context and what history revealed. Today's church does not reflect NT living so one cannot address the issue from a 20th century perspective, which is what most people do. They then pluck verses out of the air to prove their theories. I refuse to do this. The best commentary on the bible is the bible and when it says the same thing over and over again, you clearly have the truth. Like so many others, I do not base a truth or doctrine on one verse of scripture. As has been said a text without a context is a pretext.

 

[koulourakia_girl]

Hi Marksman, Yeah the name is certainly familiar - I just can't put a face to it! Wow that was so long ago!With regards to your post...You say that we cannot justify using the OT to ascertain the role of Women in the Church? Your suggestion that the NT teaches exclusively that this role belongs to elder Men just doesn't fly - what are we to make of the Women Paul mentions that teach? I think you have missed the point I have been making. I do not say that all Women have the right to teach. Far from. I do, however, say that God does indeed gift certain Women to teach. It is not an exclusively-male role. Also, I do not believe I ever suggested a hierarchy of gifts of the Holy Spirit...all are just as valid and important as each other.I do agree with your appraisal of today's form of leadership of "power", rather than "service." Today's Churches have got it totally wrong.Joel 2:28 - I never said it had anything specific to do with roles of leadership. I simply pointed-out that Women are referred to here as having gifts of the Spirit. Please note that my blog was intended for a specific purpose, to squelch a particular notion...that being only Men are created in the Image of God. This notion carries along with it ideas of female inferiority, and the notion that Women will not be given any of these things, as they are exclusively male gifts...such proponents of this theory base all of their 'evidences' on Scripture, twisting and de-contextualising anything they can get their hands on...

 

[marksman]

what are we to make of the Women Paul mentions that teach?
As you will see from this comment, I made no reference to a woman teaching, only to leadership of the local congregation. "In regards to leadership of the local congregation, one cannot refer to the OT to justify women fulfilling that role"
Also, I do not believe I ever suggested a hierarchy of gifts of the Holy Spirit
I didn't say you did. It was a general comment to point out the fallacy that being 'a pastor' was somehow superior to being anything else.
Joel 2:28 - I never said it had anything specific to do with roles of leadership.
No, I realise that, but it is the one verse that is used more than any other as a justification for women to be in leadership of the local congregation.You don't have to be in leadership to be the recipient of the gifts of the spirit if you believe in the priesthood of all believers which is what the scripture teaches. I made that comment as I didn't want someone to come back and say "what about Joel 2 v 28"?Unfortunately the two tier christianity that we have today (clergy and laity)and which is not in scripture, has spawned a superior class that believes they are gifted by God in a way that others are not, that is why 'the pastor' normally does all the preaching. When the priesthood of all believers is operating, anyone can do it if they are led by the spirit to do so.

 

[thisistheendtimes]

In The Lord, there is neither MALE nor FEMALE (Galatians 3:28).HUSBANDS, make no mistake about it, The Lord will repay you for how you mistreated your wife (honor and cherish, "one flesh").