Romans 4:16 - not only - but also...

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

Great verses!

As long as you aren't expecting me to believe that Noah was saved by his own righteousness?


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


What do you think these verses mean? Is Peter saying that these people could be saved by faith, though they had allready died?

 

[Prentis]

As long as you aren't expecting me to believe that Noah was saved by his own righteousness?

Some verses popped into my mind as I read this... Thought I would post them.



Eze 14:13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:
Eze 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze 14:15 If I cause noisome beasts to pass through the land, and they spoil it, so that it be desolate, that no man may pass through because of the beasts:
Eze 14:16 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters; they only shall be delivered, but the land shall be desolate.
Eze 14:17 Or if I bring a sword upon that land, and say, Sword, go through the land; so that I cut off man and beast from it:
Eze 14:18 Though these three men were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither sons nor daughters, but they only shall be delivered themselves.
Eze 14:19 Or if I send a pestilence into that land, and pour out my fury upon it in blood, to cut off from it man and beast:
Eze 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Prentis,

That is a great section from Ezekiel 14. Thanks for bringing it to attention.

(There are similar instances in Jeremiah, of indiviuals being spared the common judgment.)


Are you suggesting these men received eternal life because of their righteousness, or, that only their temporal lives would have been spared in those circumstances?

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,




As long as you aren't expecting me to believe that Noah was saved by his own righteousness?


1 Peter 3:18 For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19 By which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison; 20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


What do you think these verses mean? Is Peter saying that these people could be saved by faith, though they had allready died?

God saved him for his righteousness. No man can be righteous enough to merit salvation without God saying so. But in God's eyes his righteousness saves him.

Don't make a technique out of this faith only salvation method. It will lead you astray! Who is judging what faith really is???

While it does take an actual faith to please God, the righteous don't know they are having faith.

The Jewish thinking is more faithfulness than faith. Both the word Emounah and pistis also mean faithfulness. No creed to recite and no human hoop to jump through.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

God saved him for his righteousness. No man can be righteous enough to merit salvation without God saying so. But in God's eyes his righteousness saves him.

'God saved him for his righteousness' is a slightly different statement from 'But in God's eyes his righteousness saves him'.

'No man can be righteous enough to merit salvation without God saying so.' You imply that men didn't, and don't know, how to please God.

Don't make a technique out of this faith only salvation method. It will lead you astray! Who is judging what faith really is???

Scripture tells us more than all we need to know about the kind of faith which pleases God, and what that looks like when it's in operation. At no time have I advocated a 'faith only salvation method' devoid of evidence of a changed-heart relationship with sin.

While it does take an actual faith to please God, the righteous don't know they are having faith.

I disagree. They may not have called it 'faith' but they knew they engaged with God in a responsive relationship, obeying His word to them.

The Jewish thinking is more faithfulness than faith. Both the word Emounah and pistis also mean faithfulness. No creed to recite and no human hoop to jump through.

I agree with you about faithfulness. God's faith/faithfulness instigates - and detects - faith/faithfulness in us - if it is present.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,



'God saved him for his righteousness' is a slightly different statement from 'But in God's eyes his righteousness saves him'.

'No man can be righteous enough to merit salvation without God saying so.' You imply that men didn't, and don't know, how to please God.

I actually am implying that men can't claim to be God-pleasers without God Himself declaring it so. We have millions of confused Christians running around today claiming to be pleasing to God without God saying anything about it...yet!

Scripture tells us more than all we need to know about the kind of faith which pleases God, and what that looks like when it's in operation. At no time have I advocated a 'faith only salvation method' devoid of evidence of a changed-heart relationship with sin.

Still one must be careful of judging oneself to be righteous. Righteousness is a moving target. Once we think we have attained it...it has already moved out of our reach.

I disagree. They may not have called it 'faith' but they knew they engaged with God in a responsive relationship, obeying His word to them.

This is where a greater understanding of righteousness would help you. WE can never deem ourselves to be righteous...it will always be a surprise. The righteous man will say....I have done nothing!!! Only a legalist will expect good treatment for what he has done.

I agree with you about faithfulness. God's faith/faithfulness instigates - and detects - faith/faithfulness in us - if it is present.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Episkopos,

You seem to be saying that a Christian can never have peace with God in their heart, knowing that they have walked with Him all day, having the witness of the Spirit and His presence with them, without being in danger of self-satisfaction. Can we not be satisfied with Him?

Your pre-occupation with not judging oneself 'okay with God' is out of all proportion of any Christian I've met. I'm beginning to think you're the one who's self-conscious, and it's nothing to do with whether I (or others) agree with your definitions of righteousness or not. :huh:



By the way, you still haven't told me how Noah gets to heaven.

 

[Episkopos]

Hi Episkopos,

You seem to be saying that a Christian can never have peace with God in their heart, knowing that they have walked with Him all day, having the witness of the Spirit and His presence with them, without being in danger of self-satisfaction. Can we not be satisfied with Him?

Good works are like miracles...they FOLLOW the relationship we have with God. God is our portion. He can choose to continue to use us or discard us as He wishes. We are satisfied with Him when we no longer gauge our own usefulness to God. You seem to always be looking at yourself through this whole process...why???

It is immature to wonder...how am I doing?...how do I look???

Your pre-occupation with not judging oneself 'okay with God' is out of all proportion of any Christian I've met. I'm beginning to think you're the one who's self-conscious, and it's nothing to do with whether I (or others) agree with your definitions of righteousness or not. :huh:

You can see it as you wish. It doesn't matter to me. You see?

By the way, you still haven't told me how Noah gets to heaven.

He died.