Sabbath or no Sabbath?

[Gracealone]

In Hebrews 4, if the rest was referring to Christ rest, then how could Israel fail to rest in Christ if Christ had not been born yet?

Or why does he say let "us" be diligent to enter that rest if he was already resting in Christ?

 

[Pilgrimer]

In Hebrews 4, if the rest was referring to Christ rest, then how could Israel fail to rest in Christ if Christ had not been born yet?

It is under the New Covenant that believers find rest in Christ. Under the Old Covenant the 7th day Sabbath, as well as dwelling in the promised land, were shadows and types of the rest that we now find in Christ.

Or why does he say let "us" be diligent to enter that rest if he was already resting in Christ?

Because our race is not yet run, as Paul explains: “Take heed brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast to the end … Let us therefore fear, lest a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. For we which have believed do enter into rest …”

Resting in Christ, abiding in Christ, is not a one-time decision, it is a continual exercise of faith, day and night, moment by moment, for the whole of our lives. And it isn’t easy, it is the greatest struggle of faith we will ever endure.

In Christ,
Pilgrimer

 

[Raeneske]

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

John 1:1-3 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.


John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.


Ephesians 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:




Matthew 12:8 For the Son of man is Lord even of the sabbath day.


Mark 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


Luke 6:5 And he said unto them, That the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.


Exodus 20:8-11 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

We should keep the Sabbath. It is Christ who created the heavens, the earth, the sea, and all that in them is. When we keep the Sabbath Holy, we are keeping Christ's Sabbath Holy. It is Christ who worked six days, and then rested upon the seventh day, and set the day apart for holy use. God the Father created things by Jesus Christ. It is Christ who executed the commands of His Father. Christ is our Creator, as is the Father. We are to keep Jesus's Sabbath Holy.


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

John the Apostle was keeping the Sabbath when he received Revelation. (God is worshiped in spirit and truth, John 4:24). It is the Sabbath that is called the Lord's day, not any other day. The Scriptures give evidence that the Sabbath was called the Lord's day.


Isaiah 58:13-14 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words: 14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.



This Sabbath day is the Lord's holy day.

Christians that do not to keep the Sabbath day of Jesus dishonour Him. They claim to know the Saviour of mankind, yet they reject spending quality time with Him. They reject setting aside a day for Holy use, as He did. They do not follow Christ down the straight and narrow gate, and keep the commandments, as He did. They do not show that they are representatives of Jesus.

Of course, there are many who do not know the truth of this matter, and God accepts their sincerity. However, when the truth shines, when placed in it's proper light, when brought home to the conscience, the line will be drawn. The universe will then see who will worship Him who created all things, vs. keeping a false sabbath and disobey an explicit commandment. The Sabbath is not Jesus, but Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath. The Sabbath is not a person, but a day set apart by the Creator. It cannot be any day, it is upon the designated seventh day of the Creator. It is not to be tossed aside and forgotten as one keeps the other nine commandments, but it is to be remembered and kept as one that keeps all 10 commandments.

Remember the angel's message:

Revelation 14:7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

And who is He that made the heaven, and earth, the sea, and the fountains of waters? It is Christ, our Lord and Saviour who made it those things. And what did He do when He finished making them? He rested the seventh day, and set it apart for Holy use. And those that rest and keep that Sabbath are the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

The other nine commmadments are not debated because they are reinforced in the NT. Not in the same terms as the 10 commandments, but in this passage:

And one of the scribes came up and heard them disputing with one another, and seeing that he answered them well, asked him, “Which commandment is the most important of all?” Jesus answered, “The most important is, ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’ The second is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.” (Mark 12:28-31, ESV)

As one theologian pointed out...pretty much all of the 10 (not the Sabbath rule) is covered in these two commandments. If we love God with all our strength, soul and mind, we will not woship other gods ,we will not create idols and we will not take his name in vain. The other commandments are observed if we truly love our neighbours....there will be no coveting, no stealing, no disrespecting our parents...and so on.

Which brings us to the Commandment of keeping the Sabbath. Does the NT have anything to say about it? It does.

And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. So the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath.” (Mark 2:27-28, ESV)

Jesus lays down some foundation for us. Not only does he continually heal people on the Sabbath...horrifying the Pharisees, but he says the above.
The Sabbath was God's good provision for man...so that he could rest and spend a day in contemplation and fellowship. It was not made for us to conform to...with rigours and rules...it was so we could use that tim wisely....helping others as Jesus did, and for spending that time coming closer to God...be that through silent contemplation or through fellowshipping with his people....the bible is clear that we need to all of these things....'Sabbath' is God's provision for us to achieve them.

Paul also comments on the issue:

Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ. Let no one disqualify you, insisting on asceticism and worship of angels, going on in detail about visions, puffed up without reason by his sensuous mind, and not holding fast to the Head, from whom the whole body, nourished and knit together through its joints and ligaments, grows with a growth that is from God.
If with Christ you died to the elemental spirits of the world, why, as if you were still alive in the world, do you submit to regulations— (Colossians 2:16-20, ESV)

That spells it out fairly clearly I think.

Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is the Creator. Why therefore would we be allowed to break our Creator's, our Saviour's, Sabbath Day? He did not break the Sabbath Day by healing upon the Sabbath Day. The first four commandments are covered in loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Can you claim to love God and disregard an explicit commandment? It is the one commandment that points out who your Creator is.

Christians of the world, whom serve ye, if you keep not His commandments? His commandments are not grievous.

1 John 5:1-3 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

Paul never said one is not to keep the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. Colossians 2:16 is not even about the 10 commandments.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances is not the same things as the 10 commandments written with the finger of God in stone.

Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV): "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ."

Enough said.

Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

The handwriting of ordinances is not the 10 commandments.


Hebrews 9:10 Which stood only in meats and drinks, and divers washings, and carnal ordinances, imposed on them until the time of reformation.

What about the 10 Commandments?


Romans 7:12-14 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good. 13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful. 14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.


Romans 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.




The handwriting of ordinances was nailed to the cross, and it was only imposed on them until the time of reformation. What about the ten commandments? It is established in the New Testament. We can see this throughout the Bible with the other 9 commandments quite plainly. Can we find the Sabbath kept after the death of Jesus, but before His resurrection?

Luke 23:56 And they returned, and prepared spices and ointments; and rested the sabbath day according to the commandment.

After His resurrection?


Revelation 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

(God is worshiped in spirit and truth, John 4:24). Did the gentiles keep the Sabbath?


Acts 13:42 And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.


If we keep 9 commandments, do we really have to keep one more? Will God accept 90%?


James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.



I think then, it should be clear. We are to keep the Sabbath Day holy. It is Christ who created all things (John 1:1-3, 1:10, Ephesians 3:9), so it is He who rested the Seventh Day and set it apart for Holy use (Exodus 20:8-11), for He is Lord of that day (Matthew 12:8, Mark 2:28, Luke 6:5). When we keep the Sabbath Holy, we are keeping Jesus's day Holy. Let us all rest the Sabbath Day, and worship the Creator, our Saviour.

 

[Dodo_David]

In his book Word Meanings in the New Testament, Dr. Ralph Earle states the following about the KJV's use of the words Jews and Gentiles in Acts 13:42.

There is no mention of "Jews" or "Gentiles" in any Greek manuscript before the ninth century. The words were added by later copyists and so got into the KJV, which is based on later manuscripts. Commentators agree that is was Paul and Barnabas who were leaving the synagogue and "the people" who invited them to speak again (cf. NASB, NIV).

This why modern-day English versions (other than variations of the KJV) of the Bible don't mention the Gentiles in Acts 13:42, because Luke the Physician didn't mention the Gentiles when writing Acts 13:42.

Like it or not, when comes to comparing English versions of the Bible, the KJV isn't the standard for comparison.

 

[Rach1370]

Jesus said He is Lord of the Sabbath. He is the Creator. Why therefore would we be allowed to break our Creator's, our Saviour's, Sabbath Day?

Yes, Jesus is Lord...of all, and that includes "Sabbath". But you are missing the point Jesus was making in this paragraph. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The implication is obvious. We are not confined by the Sabbath...the Sabbath was a gift given to man for spiritual and physical refreshment. I wonder how you can doubt this when everything God has given us has been in the nature of a wonderful gift.
Jesus, when he says that 'the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath'....he is again emphasizing his authority...he is the 'Son of Man'.....if the Sabbath is for man, and Jesus is Lord of Man...then he is also 'lord of the Sabbath'. He's basically saying to his criticisers that not only are they getting the idea of Sabbath wrong, but they have no ground at all to call Jesus, of all people, out on what he does on Sabbath.

He did not break the Sabbath Day by healing upon the Sabbath Day.

I'm assuming that you are saying that it was not a problem for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath (apart from the silly rules man had come up with)....and not that you are saying Jesus didn't heal on the Sabbath...cause clearly he did!
My point here, was not "gasp...Jesus broke the Sabbath".....but that Jesus shows us that 'keeping' the Sabbath has far, far different connotations than what the Jews were thinking. The idea that we 'must' keep the Sabbath as one particular day, and on the day do, or not do, specific things, to 'uphold' the law, is against the very purpose of Sabbath! Sabbath is for us....it is for our rest, healing, growth...whatever we need in regards to bringing us closer to Christ...that is why Paul tells us to not let others 'pass judgement' about when or how we 'rest'. You are right...he is not telling us to disregard Sabbath...he is telling us what Jesus did....it is for you, so take it how you need to.

The first four commandments are covered in loving God with all your heart, soul, and mind. Can you claim to love God and disregard an explicit commandment? It is the one commandment that points out who your Creator is.

I'm not disregarding a explicit commandment. I'm exercising the freedom both Christ and Paul tells me I can have in this issue. I still 'observe' the Sabbath...a day of rest from the rest of the world and life.

 

[Raeneske]

Yes, Jesus is Lord...of all, and that includes "Sabbath". But you are missing the point Jesus was making in this paragraph. The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. The implication is obvious. We are not confined by the Sabbath...the Sabbath was a gift given to man for spiritual and physical refreshment. I wonder how you can doubt this when everything God has given us has been in the nature of a wonderful gift.
Jesus, when he says that 'the Son of Man is lord even of the Sabbath'....he is again emphasizing his authority...he is the 'Son of Man'.....if the Sabbath is for man, and Jesus is Lord of Man...then he is also 'lord of the Sabbath'. He's basically saying to his criticisers that not only are they getting the idea of Sabbath wrong, but they have no ground at all to call Jesus, of all people, out on what he does on Sabbath.


I'm assuming that you are saying that it was not a problem for Jesus to heal on the Sabbath (apart from the silly rules man had come up with)....and not that you are saying Jesus didn't heal on the Sabbath...cause clearly he did!
My point here, was not "gasp...Jesus broke the Sabbath".....but that Jesus shows us that 'keeping' the Sabbath has far, far different connotations than what the Jews were thinking. The idea that we 'must' keep the Sabbath as one particular day, and on the day do, or not do, specific things, to 'uphold' the law, is against the very purpose of Sabbath! Sabbath is for us....it is for our rest, healing, growth...whatever we need in regards to bringing us closer to Christ...that is why Paul tells us to not let others 'pass judgement' about when or how we 'rest'. You are right...he is not telling us to disregard Sabbath...he is telling us what Jesus did....it is for you, so take it how you need to.


I'm not disregarding a explicit commandment. I'm exercising the freedom both Christ and Paul tells me I can have in this issue. I still 'observe' the Sabbath...a day of rest from the rest of the world and life.

Before I respond, I want to be clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that it is wrong to tell someone *how* to keep the Sabbath, or are you saying that it is wrong to tell someone *to* keep the Sabbath? Is it wrong to tell someone to keep the Sabbath on one particular day?

 

[Dodo_David]

When asked to name the greatest commandment, Jesus did not name any of the ten commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17.

Instead, He named two commandments recorded in Deuteronomy.

Gentiles err when they assume that God gave only 10 commandments to the Israelites. There are 613 commandments recorded in the Old Testament.

So, why is it that a Gentile will insist on obeying the commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17 but not on obeying the other 603 commandments in the Old Testament?

In his epistle, the Apostle James writes, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

If Gentiles are going to be told to obey the commandments in the Old Testament, then what is the biblical rationale for telling them to obey only the commandments in Exodus 20:1-17?

During the first Church council, (Acts 15), the Apostles discussed what rules that the Gentile believers in Jesus were to follow.
This is what the Apostles concluded:

"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

 

[Raeneske]

When asked to name the greatest commandment, Jesus did not name any of the ten commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17.

Instead, He named two commandments recorded in Deuteronomy.

Gentiles err when they assume that God gave only 10 commandments to the Israelites. There are 613 commandments recorded in the Old Testament.

So, why is it that a Gentile will insist on obeying the commandments listed in Exodus 20:1-17 but not on obeying the other 603 commandments in the Old Testament?

In his epistle, the Apostle James writes, "For whoever keeps the whole law but fails in one point has become accountable for all of it."

If Gentiles are going to be told to obey the commandments in the Old Testament, then what is the biblical rationale for telling them to obey only the commandments in Exodus 20:1-17?

During the first Church council, (Acts 15), the Apostles discussed what rules that the Gentile believers in Jesus were to follow.
This is what the Apostles concluded:

"For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well."

What was penned in Deuteronomy pointed back to the 10 Commandments.

Romans 13:8-10 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. 9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Paul the Apostle showed that to love your neighbour as yourself, you are to keep the commandments. Why? Because love is the fulfilling of the law. If you love your neighbour, you will keep the commandments. And remember, Jesus said those two great commandments are likened unto each other. They are similar in some way. They both point to the 10 commandments. While loving your neighbour as yourself means you keep the last six commandments, in letter and in spirit, the first four commandments address how you are to love God, by loving Him with all your heart, soul, and mind.

Jesus did name the 10 commandments. But He did so, by showing them as two great commandments. One part referring to how to love God, and the other referring to how to love your neighbour. Paul the Apostle breaks that down for us in his epistle to the Romans. Jesus was quite clearly showing what He meant, in His words:


Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

James 2:10 does not refer to the ordinances which were nailed to the cross, if this is what you are referring to. Hebrews 9:16 says that was imposed until the time of the reformation. However, something still remained, as Paul shows us in Romans 3:31. As a matter of fact, something was established, instead of made void as people try to make void. The law was established. What law? The 10 Commandments. It is not gone, it still exists. And as Christ said:


Matthew 5:17-19 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[Rach1370]

Before I respond, I want to be clear on what you are saying. Are you saying that it is wrong to tell someone *how* to keep the Sabbath, or are you saying that it is wrong to tell someone *to* keep the Sabbath? Is it wrong to tell someone to keep the Sabbath on one particular day?

I think that Jesus teaches that as the Sabbath is a day FOR us....for our benefit, then yes....it is a good idea to 'keep' the Sabbath. But as we see, how the Jews were 'keeping' it, was not how it was intended to be used. They put rules, labels and strictures upon it that just should not have been there. And I believe that what Paul teaches echos that....what and when 'Sabbeth' is for you, may be different from what and when it is for me....based on what we need. You may have a really physically demanding job, and what you need from a God given rest day is a quiet day of relaxation, contemplating on how good God is to give you such a rest day. For me it could be very different. Usually the intersecting ground is that we all 'need' fellowship together as we grow from God's word....but often all other parts of the 'Sabbath' day of rest are different from person to person.

I hope I explained that well enough! Basically I think that yes....as Christians we should take a day of rest...God would not have given it to us if it were not beneficial for our physical health and our spiritual health. The problem and ambiguity of the issue comes from the differing nature of what people need. Everyone is different, after all, and that's how God made us! So if someone has a job...being a nurse, for example and they have to work on the weekend...then they are not able to take either Saturday or Sunday as 'Sabbath'. I just don't think the day matters, as long as we realise why God has given us that day....

 

[Raeneske]

I think that Jesus teaches that as the Sabbath is a day FOR us....for our benefit, then yes....it is a good idea to 'keep' the Sabbath. But as we see, how the Jews were 'keeping' it, was not how it was intended to be used. They put rules, labels and strictures upon it that just should not have been there. And I believe that what Paul teaches echos that....what and when 'Sabbeth' is for you, may be different from what and when it is for me....based on what we need. You may have a really physically demanding job, and what you need from a God given rest day is a quiet day of relaxation, contemplating on how good God is to give you such a rest day. For me it could be very different. Usually the intersecting ground is that we all 'need' fellowship together as we grow from God's word....but often all other parts of the 'Sabbath' day of rest are different from person to person.

I hope I explained that well enough! Basically I think that yes....as Christians we should take a day of rest...God would not have given it to us if it were not beneficial for our physical health and our spiritual health. The problem and ambiguity of the issue comes from the differing nature of what people need. Everyone is different, after all, and that's how God made us! So if someone has a job...being a nurse, for example and they have to work on the weekend...then they are not able to take either Saturday or Sunday as 'Sabbath'. I just don't think the day matters, as long as we realise why God has given us that day....

The Jews indeed laid down rules and burdens upon the Sabbath that did not need to be laid down. But we must keep in mind what God intended for the Sabbath Day, and remember that the Scriptures themselves lay out rules for the Sabbath Day. Anything more than these Biblical principles is the opinion of mankind.

I don't agree that Paul speaks about the Sabbath Day in this regard, but it is true that what you may do on the Sabbath day is different than what I may do. But I see there are Scriptural principles that God has given that withholds mankind from doing certain things upon the Sabbath day. Check out Isaiah 58:13-14, Nehemiah 13:15-22, and of course Exodus 20:8-11.

Working on Sabbath as a nurse is okay in an emergency. But to preform mundane tasks upon the Sabbath from week to week is not an emergency. It's just flat out disobedience.

The day does indeed matter. It is God Himself who set apart the seventh day for holy use. And in God's dealing with Israel, we can see that God punished them for profaning His Sabbath. He did not punish them because they did not rest a day of their choosing, but because they did not keep the day of His choosing. There is no principle in the Bible that allows mankind to choose the Sabbath Day. Else, why was the man stoned who went out for sticks upon the Sabbath? Why did God not rain down manna upon the Seventh Day of the week? Why did God deliberately rain down double manna upon the sixth day? Time and time again we see that a specific day was laid out. We can even come to the time of the Pharisees, when they were persecuting Jesus. Were they persecuting Him because they thought He was breaking a rest day that was not upon the seventh day of the week, or because they thought He was breaking the Sabbath?

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man. What day is the Sabbath? Is it not the seventh day of the week? Where is the weekly Sabbath ever applied to any other day but the seventh day of the week?

Nowhere do we see Jesus teach, whatsoever day you choose as Sabbath, that day, ye keep. And upon a misunderstanding of Paul's writings do some arguments come forth that we may choose whatever day we please. For Jesus plainly did not teach such a thing. The two main verses that are used out of context to support such arguments, are these:

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:


Romans 14:5-6 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. 6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.

First Colossians 2:16. See this verse:


Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

In no way shape or form is this speaking about the 10 commandments as it being that which is nailed to the cross. To apply any commandment to this passage is downright erroneous. Is thou shalt not kill nailed? Are the principles of thou shalt not kill nailed? Thou shalt not covet, or any of it's principles? Thou shalt not steal? Etc. So why would Remember the Sabbath Day be nailed, or any of it's principles, when the passage isn't even talking about the 10 commandments? The word Sabbath is not exclusive to the ten commandments. This passage clearly has nothing to do with the seventh day Sabbath, so onto the next one.

Now, for Romans 14:5-6, let us first go back and view again the topic of the conversation.


Romans 14:1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.

Right off the bat, it's talking about doubtful disputations. Is keeping the 10 commandments a doubtful disputation? Yea, it may be for some in this sin-sick world, but when brought to the word of God, it is not doubtful. It is very clear, we need to keep the 10 commandments. So even based off the first verse, we can tell this is not talking about the Sabbath day. But let us continue.




Romans 14:2-3 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs. 3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.

The doubtful disputation is about him that eateth and him that eateth not. So, how does this tie in with verses 5 and 6? Consider this next passage:


Isaiah 58:3-5 Wherefore have we fasted, say they, and thou seest not? wherefore have we afflicted our soul, and thou takest no knowledge? Behold, in the day of your fast ye find pleasure, and exact all your labours. 4 Behold, ye fast for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness: ye shall not fast as ye do this day, to make your voice to be heard on high. 5 Is it such a fast that I have chosen? a day for a man to afflict his soul? is it to bow down his head as a bulrush, and to spread sackcloth and ashes under him? wilt thou call this a fast, and an acceptable day to the LORD?

While it was the Pharisees that fasted for strife and debate, and to smite with the fist of wickedness, these Christians were not having that kind of problem. They were judging one another based off fast days, and what one did and did not eat upon the day of the fast, and if they did or did not fast upon that day. The verse that I especially think one ought to pay attention to, is verse five in Isaiah 58. A fast day is a day to the Lord. Verses 5 and 6 in Romans speak of esteeming a day, and one that eats and does not eat to the Lord. Does this not sound like a fast day? It appears these Romans had problems with fasting and judging one another on fasts. Remember the disciples of John the Baptist had a problem with fasting, as they fasted as often as the Pharisees and questioned Jesus as to why His disciples did not fast like them. I am not saying these Romans are the same people -- I am saying they are having a similar problem.

Those are two verses used to say we can choose whichever day we like. However, upon further examination of the verses in context, they aren't saying such a thing at all. And applying them to the Sabbath Day, except one choose to fast upon the Sabbath Day, is erroneous.

 

[tom55]

Let me guess what is going on here
1. You make one post , you are new here
2. You ask a short question , in this case about the sabbath
3. We give our answers
4. You disagree with our answers
5. Then you proceed to copy and paste your endless arguments
6. That is what I think .

Because:
7. You have been booted from all the other forums
8. Or you did not win your arguments elsewhere
9. Or you are looking for fresh meat to butcher
10. That is what I think

Good job Arnie Manitoba

You called Gracealone out and I agree with you (for the most part). I am not sure if Gracealone has been booted from other forums; but every other statement is dead on....in my opinion.


In Matthew 19:17 Jesus said to "keep the commandments" and He was referring to the ten commandments. One of the ten commandments is to keep holy the Sabbath.

MUNGO made a very good point also. Jesus observed the Sabbath. I guess if Jesus did it, as his disciple, so should I.

 

[Dodo_David]

In Matthew 19:17 Jesus said to "keep the commandments" and He was referring to the ten commandments.

tomm55, it appears to me that you are assuming what you have yet to prove.

As I say in my previous post, there are more than 10 commandments in the Old Testament. Indeed, Jesus cited two commandments not in Exodus 20 whenever He was asked to name the greatest commandment.

Indeed, when Jesus said in Mark 14:17, "For you always have the poor with you..." (ESV), He was making a reference to the commandment that God gives in Deuteronomy 15:11:

For there will never cease to be poor in the land. Therefore I command you, ‘You shall open wide your hand to your brother, to the needy and to the poor, in your land.’

In Matthew 19:7, the Lord Jesus is talking to Torah-observing Jews who knew about the numerous commandments in the Torah, not just about the ten in Exodus 20.

 

[tom55]

tomm55, it appears to me that you are assuming what you have yet to prove.

As I say in my previous post, there are more than 10 commandments in the Old Testament. Indeed, Jesus cited two commandments not in Exodus 20 whenever He was asked to name the greatest commandment.

Indeed, when Jesus said in Mark 14:17, "For you always have the poor with you..." (ESV), He was making a reference to the commandment that God gives in Deuteronomy 15:11:


In Matthew 19:7, the Lord Jesus is talking to Torah-observing Jews who knew about the numerous commandments in the Torah, not just about the ten in Exodus 20.

Dodo David,

I usually understand what you are saying and agree with you in some of your posts, however, this time you have confused me. The original post says, in general; The NT gives evidential support for observance of the Sabbath, what is your position, "give scriptural support". You then refer to when Jesus was asked to name the greatest commandment. I am not sure how that fits into the topic or my previous response?

In Matthew 19:18-19 (which completes Jesus statement about keeping the commandments) he mentions five of the ten commandments given in Exodus 20 and only one that isn't in Exodus 20. He obviously put a heavy emphasis on the ten commandments. In my humble opinion he was referring to all of Exodus 20 when he said keep the commandments. Do you think he left out the other five intentionally because He felt we don't need to keep them? In your opinion was he intentionally leaving out the 4th commandment, "keep holy the Sabbath"? Could he have been summarizing Exodus 20 just to get his point across?

Also, I am not sure how your reference to Mark and Deuteronomy fit into this topic (about the Sabbath)? I am not asking these questions in a mean manner and I only put things in bold to emphasize a point (I'm not yelling at ya'). I never said there were not more than ten commandments. I was only replying to the question of the OP and referencing the bible to "give scriptural support". So what am I assuming?

 

[Dodo_David]

Dodo David,

I usually understand what you are saying and agree with you in some of your posts, however, this time you have confused me. The original post says, in general; The NT gives evidential support for observance of the Sabbath, what is your position, "give scriptural support". You then refer to when Jesus was asked to name the greatest commandment. I am not sure how that fits into the topic or my previous response?

In Matthew 19:18-19 (which completes Jesus statement about keeping the commandments) he mentions five of the ten commandments given in Exodus 20 and only one that isn't in Exodus 20. He obviously put a heavy emphasis on the ten commandments. In my humble opinion he was referring to all of Exodus 20 when he said keep the commandments. Do you think he left out the other five intentionally because He felt we don't need to keep them? In your opinion was he intentionally leaving out the 4th commandment, "keep holy the Sabbath"? Could he have been summarizing Exodus 20 just to get his point across?

Also, I am not sure how your reference to Mark and Deuteronomy fit into this topic (about the Sabbath)? I am not asking these questions in a mean manner and I only put things in bold to emphasize a point (I'm not yelling at ya'). I never said there were not more than ten commandments. I was only replying to the question of the OP and referencing the bible to "give scriptural support". So what am I assuming?

I was responding to this claim of yours:

In Matthew 19:17 Jesus said to "keep the commandments" and He was referring to the ten commandments.

Let's look at that verse within its context.

16 Just then a man came up to Jesus and asked, “Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?”

17 “Why do you ask me about what is good?” Jesus replied. “There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, keep the commandments.”

18 “Which ones?” he inquired.

Jesus replied, “‘You shall not murder, you shall not commit adultery, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,’ and ‘love your neighbor as yourself.’”

That last commandment the Jesus quoted ("love your neighbor as yourself") isn't in the Decalogue. Instead,it is among the commandments given in the 19th chapter of Leviticus.

So, when Jesus says in verse 17 "keep the commandments", he isn't referring to just the Decalogue.

As I have explained before, Gentiles have a habit of believing that there are only ten commandments in the Torah, which isn't true.

Yes, obeying the Sabbath commandment is strongly emphasized in the Tanakh, but it and the other nine commandments of the Decalogue aren't the only commandments that God required His people to obey.

So, why emphasize obedience to just ten of more than 600 commandments?

 

[williemac]

If I may join this discussion, I have a comment or two. First I will ask...who says we are NOT keeping the sabbath?
A quote from one post says..Colossians 2:16-17 (ESV): "Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ.".

The sabbath was a shadow of things to come. This could mean any number of things, but the author of Hebrews (no proof that it is Paul, BTW) gave some insight. In ch.3:18,19, he speaks of God's rest as something that is entered into, and something that God can prevent.
Is tthis the sabbath rest? Apparently...Ch.4:3-6....."For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: 'So I wore in My wrath, they shall not enter My rest', although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken is a certain place of the SEVENTH DAY in this way: "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"....an again in this place: "they shall not enter My rest".

So I wondered to God, just what is this sabbath rest a shadow of? Then it occurred to me that He created all things in six days. Six literal days? Irrelevant to the lesson. The lesson is that He rested from HIS work on the seventh day. I'll repeat...HIS work.

But then what happened on the eighth day? Did He go back to work? Yes indeedy. But it was no longer HIS work. He set out on the eighth day to work with His creation and to love it. He had previously created all things for Himself. That is why He called it His work. He did it for Him.

But love does things for those who are its object. Love does not seek its own. You see, Jesus said " My Father is working". But it is a different category of working than that of creating all things. Here is my observation. He rested from His work permanently. He is in permanent rest from doing things solely for Himself.

Here is what I think the sabbath rest was meant to be a shadow of: The new covenant. Hebrews talks of entering into His rest through faith. ( ch.4:3). The old covenant was a covenant governed by the agreement to obey the law of commandments. That was its condition. But those who were under this covenant had incentive. Their obedience was to procure a blessing and avoid a curse. Therefore under the law, they were doing "their work". They were motivated to obey for their own benefit.

But under the new covenant, all things that come to us from God are freely given, including justification (Rom.8:32). Therefore we are under a new category of works. We are called to love one another. Love is for the benefit of its object. This is the "rest" of God.

Heb.4:10...." He who has entered His rest has himself rested from his work, as God did from His"

Here is the irony of the 4th commandment....It is a "work" of law. Heb.6:1 says that one of the foundations of our covenant is to rest from dead works, replaced by faith in God. Dead works? Gal.3:21..." For if there had been a law given which could have given life, truly righteousness would have been by the law". The truth of the matter is that no law, not even the 4th commandment, brought anyone life or righteousness. These were all "dead" works.

Works that are alive are those that come 'FROM' a position of righteousness, not 'towards it.

Does a person want to observe one day over another? Let him. Does another want to observe all days alike? Let him. Either way, the key is that they are both in (permanent) rest, God's rest, the true sabbath rest, ... through faith.

 

[tom55]

So, why emphasize obedience to just ten of more than 600 commandments?

I refer back to my previous post. Five of the six commandments Jesus quoted were from the ten commandments. Jesus emphasized the ten commandments, not me. The subject of this discussion put forth by Gracealone (not me) is: "Sabbath or no Sabbath? Give scriptural support". Hence I put forth my scriptural support; it is one of the ten commandments and Jesus said keep the commandments. Keep holy the Sabbath (what we are told to do) is in the old testament and it is implied in the new testament when Jesus said keep the commandments. I did not emphasize obedience to just ten of 600 commandments. I answered the question put forth by Gracealone. I did not say Jesus was referring to "just the Decalogue" as you have accused me of. Keep holy the Sabbath is part of the Decalogue which is the point of this discussion; the Sabbath.


I repeat: I never emphasized obedience to just ten of the 600 commandments! If I did, then please quote me. When I said He was referring to the ten commandments it was because five out of the six commandments He gave where from the ten commandments. That is a very strong reference put forth by Jesus, not me. Also, if there are over 600 commandments in the bible why did Jesus quote only six with five of those being from the ten commandments? Was He trying to emphasize the importance of the ten commandments?

I answered you question, however, you failed to answer my many questions from my previous post? Why?


Respectfully......tom55

 

[marksman]

The Sabbath was only ever given to the Jews.

I assume you are saying if you are not a Jew the Sabbath is not relevant.

if that is the case, can I ignore the other nine commandments?

If not why not?

 

[Dodo_David]

My question is this:

Given the hypothetical scenario that Gentiles are supposed to obey the commandments given in the Torah, why shouldn't Gentiles be required to obey all 600+ commandments in the Torah?

When asked what commandments that the Jews were to obey, Jesus didn't just name the commandments listed in the Decalogue. He also named a commandment outside of the Decalogue. When asked to name the greatest commandment, Jesus cited two commandments that are outside of the Decalogue.

 

[Mungo]

I assume you are saying if you are not a Jew the Sabbath is not relevant.

if that is the case, can I ignore the other nine commandments?

If not why not?

The other nine commandments (except for the making of images) are moral laws, applicable from the beginning. We can see murder (for example) condemned in Genesis when Cain slew Abel. We can also find them re-iterated in the New Covenant. Resting on a Saturday is not a moral imperative for gentiles. It is a command for the Israelites as it was a sign of their Covenant with God.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I find the NT gives evidentual support for it's observance, yet what is your position on the issue? (give scriptural support)

So where are 'ya ??? .... 'ya haven't been back since Nov 29th ...... are you taking an 8 day sabbatical ???? ..... did you get your question answered ????