Salvation before Glorification of Christ?!

[Nancy]

I see your word "technically" there...I would put Legally.
Is says He rose for our justification..
Rom 4:25 "Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification. "

So yes, that was the completion of the legal transaction ...we were freed.."Not guilty" ..satan's hold was broken

"..satan's hold was broken" AMEN to that!

 

[Nancy]

So Helen, if credited righteousness means salvation under the OT and also the Law, when did Noah receive the spirit of God within his heart, the seal of salvation, as a believer today?

Just probing as I believe it is an important topic that cannot be taken lightly. It is not a core belief although it is a strong secondary level belief that needs to be understood. It tells you about God as you began speaking of, the Law, grace and the significance of when Jesus had to be glorified for us to be saved.​

Bless you,

APAK...I like this subject..

My puny take on this question is that the O.T. saints were looking forward, or ahead to their Christ. They believed God. The Spirit did not live inside them at that point in time. The Spirit worked without.
After Pentecost, all believers received the Holy Spirit, and He lives within us forever. IMO

 

[Nancy]

Sure, bbyrd there are many, I agree on this point…Here the top 5 that I can quickly think of…

1. There are those that believe saved is just by Jesus atoning for our sins (as a kind of empty grace) without us acknowledging and performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ.

2. There are those that believe saved is reading this good news of salvation, believing it, confessing and repenting of sin, being baptized into Christ as performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and to be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ. And this mouth full is what I believe in and performed many years ago, and scripture concurs.

3. There are those that believe if we be good or try to be good and do good works we are saved.

4. There are those that believe we are not good enough to be saved

5. There are those that believe we can fall from being saved and we have to resign ourselves to ‘going in’ and out’ of being saved until we die, and hope we are ‘saved’ when we have our last breath. It’s all based on ‘sin’ and how we might feel one day..etc…or what our ‘church’ tells us to believe in

Bless you,

APAK

"2. There are those that believe saved is reading this good news of salvation, believing it, confessing and repenting of sin, being baptized into Christ as performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and to be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ. And this mouth full is what I believe in and performed many years ago, and scripture concurs." <----Ditto. To me your above phrase "performing steps" could also apply to "Working out our salvation...." It' been worked in, so our response should be to use it or "work out" of us what has been put in us to further His Kingdom! JMO

 

[Jun2u]

I agree that the shed blood of Christ provides us the opportunity to be saved. We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, the gift of saving faith from God, and the spirit from God. This is our ‘stamp’ of approval. It’s what makes a true believer in Christ. Without it we are not saved.

I beg to differ, the statements above are full of errors, let me break it down for you.
,
You said:- I agree that the shed blood of Christ provides us the opportunity to be saved.

BTW, we have discussed the blood of Christ on another thread whereby I've submitted Hebrews 916-22, which you did not comprehend. God's plan of salvation is a done deal!!! Either we are saved or not. Mat 1:21; Jo 6:44, 37.

You said:- We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, the gift of saving faith from God, and the spirit from God.

All the above are foreign to the Bible and must be read in light of Romans 3:10-12. If God's assessment of the human race that NO ONE seeks after Him, who then will believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation? NONE!

Man does not have a "free will" as most supposedly believe because they are spiritually dead and slave to sin and Satan.

You said:- This is our "stamp" of approval. It's what makes a true believer in Christ. Without it we are not saved.

The "stamp of approval" is not the same as the "name of the Father written on a believer's forehead" (Rev 14:1). It is true without the name (not stamp) of God on the believer's forehead (144,000 the actual totality of all believers) he is not saved as per Rev 1317-18, where the unsaved have the mark of the beast on their foreheads and hands.

A person who has a different gospel from that of the Bible is accursed!

Gal 1:8-9 reads:
8) "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
9) "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed."

! Cor 12:3 reads:
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

You said:- I do understand your thinking Helen. The key part that I don't see in your writing though is that the OT folks must have the spirit of salvation within them as the NT folks have today to be 'saved.'. There is no way getting around it. They must have it sometime in their existence, on the earth or in Paradise. And the question then is, when do or did they obtain it? Yes I agree the promise is not yet fulfilled. It shall be fulfilled when we are in our new bodies the housing for our new spirit as Christ.

No worries Helen, it is a subject I keep trying to refine and understand completely. I'm an analyst at heart

The promise of salvation was not fulfilled in the Old Testament and you are an analyst at heart? You could have fooled me. Your false teachings of the salvation program of God is showing as well as your false teaching of the Trinity. Yes, it is true that there is only one salvation plan of God, one covenant, one Gospel for both the Old and the New Testament believers, and that is by GRACE ALONE!!! Without grace, there can be no salvation, however; we read that Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Ge 6:8). Consider as well that Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And, this is how the Old Testament believers were saved and where Heb 9:16-22 comes into play!

I suggest that you re-evaluate what your beliefs are regarding the true Gospel. Don't try interpreting Scriptures but let the Scriptures guide you by comparing scriptures with scripture, and spiritual things with spiritual.

Christendom has a big problem and the question is, what structures and determines the true Gospel?

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

To God Be The Glory

 

[APAK]

I don't believe in mans works at all or what one says.

You will have to give me more info on why you say such a thing.

Fact is no man can say of boast that he is going to Heaven because only Jesus Christ himself can make that call and anyone who doubts that is a moron. you may make claims that it is your hope and that you feel that you will go to Heaven strongly to others because of X Y Z but to boast is worthless, sure I understand one saying such to other men but what about when you meet Jesus Christ are you going to toss him out of the way, I don't think so, I think anyone will be boasting to him at all.

The workings of men and the Holy Spirit are clear different.

A religious mate makes claims he is going to Heaven all the time to me and that's all good I don't mind that he has faith, but he thinks that he can kill others and do what ever he likes totally regardless take drugs bash and steal and he is going to Heaven because he believes it and not even repent at all for all he has done because OSAS.
Well I don't think he is abiding in the Lord Jesus at all but has only licence of Satan in his heart, he rattles on about Idolising Jews and all that crap as well, you must do as the Jews tell you or else.
He has evil spirits that has made him worse than he ever was before and he knows it, I can read it in his eyes but will not admit it.

Reggie: Let me 'speak' with you in a private text setting if you do not mind.

Thanks

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

I beg to differ, the statements above are full of errors, let me break it down for you.
,
You said:- I agree that the shed blood of Christ provides us the opportunity to be saved.

BTW, we have discussed the blood of Christ on another thread whereby I've submitted Hebrews 916-22, which you did not comprehend. God's plan of salvation is a done deal!!! Either we are saved or not. Mat 1:21; Jo 6:44, 37.

You said:- We then must take the steps to believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation, the gift of saving faith from God, and the spirit from God.

All the above are foreign to the Bible and must be read in light of Romans 3:10-12. If God's assessment of the human race that NO ONE seeks after Him, who then will believe, repent, be baptized and receive the gift of salvation? NONE!

Man does not have a "free will" as most supposedly believe because they are spiritually dead and slave to sin and Satan.

You said:- This is our "stamp" of approval. It's what makes a true believer in Christ. Without it we are not saved.

The "stamp of approval" is not the same as the "name of the Father written on a believer's forehead" (Rev 14:1). It is true without the name (not stamp) of God on the believer's forehead (144,000 the actual totality of all believers) he is not saved as per Rev 1317-18, where the unsaved have the mark of the beast on their foreheads and hands.

A person who has a different gospel from that of the Bible is accursed!

Gal 1:8-9 reads:
8) "But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed."
9) "As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that you have received, let him be accursed."

! Cor 12:3 reads:
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

You said:- I do understand your thinking Helen. The key part that I don't see in your writing though is that the OT folks must have the spirit of salvation within them as the NT folks have today to be 'saved.'. There is no way getting around it. They must have it sometime in their existence, on the earth or in Paradise. And the question then is, when do or did they obtain it? Yes I agree the promise is not yet fulfilled. It shall be fulfilled when we are in our new bodies the housing for our new spirit as Christ.

No worries Helen, it is a subject I keep trying to refine and understand completely. I'm an analyst at heart

The promise of salvation was not fulfilled in the Old Testament and you are an analyst at heart? You could have fooled me. Your false teachings of the salvation program of God is showing as well as your false teaching of the Trinity. Yes, it is true that there is only one salvation plan of God, one covenant, one Gospel for both the Old and the New Testament believers, and that is by GRACE ALONE!!! Without grace, there can be no salvation, however; we read that Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD (Ge 6:8). Consider as well that Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. And, this is how the Old Testament believers were saved and where Heb 9:16-22 comes into play!

I suggest that you re-evaluate what your beliefs are regarding the true Gospel. Don't try interpreting Scriptures but let the Scriptures guide you by comparing scriptures with scripture, and spiritual things with spiritual.

Christendom has a big problem and the question is, what structures and determines the true Gospel?

"There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

To God Be The Glory

Jun2u: I give you great credit for your feedback, although I am a bit confused on your responses to me. I find that some of them are things I did not say, or you have interpreted them in a different way for some reason.

Romans 3:10-12 is there to remind all mankind they do not generate righteousness through their own efforts or work separate from God. This is why through faith and grace have we obtained righteousness for those that want it. God moves the hearts of mankind to know him and love him to justification through his son and righteousness to salvation. Why did Jesus do the things he did. Was it not for that purpose? Why are many people afraid of accepting the gift of eternal life? I cannot see the hearts of people, only God can, and he knows who will accept him through hos son. I am one of them, a believer in Christ with then righteousness, not of my own.

You topic of free-will I tend to agree with on different grounds...

We have to recognize that difference with folks in some parts of scripture may not extend to the gospel as you have done....I would reconsider that I have presented some type of false gospel. The gospel in essence is salvation through grace and then faith that God can only provide. Any other difference in the bible most probably is not about the gospel. And really I do not understand why you suddenly bring up a false gospel without any written basis.

And again I agree that the promises given to Abraham were not met in the OT...so I do not understand you fuss here.

You also have provided errors in my writing although you have not provided much in the way of remedy. Can you provide your take on the differences, such as the true gospel you adhere to.

Let me know your version of the true gospel Jun2u. Then we can speak with more substance.

Thanks

Bless you,

APAK

 

[APAK]

"2. There are those that believe saved is reading this good news of salvation, believing it, confessing and repenting of sin, being baptized into Christ as performing steps that condition our heart to accepting this grace and gift of God into our hearts and to be a part of God’s spirit within us that molds us to a likeness of Christ. And this mouth full is what I believe in and performed many years ago, and scripture concurs." <----Ditto. To me your above phrase "performing steps" could also apply to "Working out our salvation...." It' been worked in, so our response should be to use it or "work out" of us what has been put in us to further His Kingdom! JMO

I agree Nancy, these 'spiritual' steps are for 'working out' our salvation once we 'came to' Jesus, and know we have God within us - saved. Paul speaks of this 'working out process' to perfection. Each walks in the spirit at difference paces or strides....we all want to cooperate and obey God as humanly possible...

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Nancy]

I agree Nancy, these 'spiritual' steps are for 'working out' our salvation once we 'came to' Jesus, and know we have God within us - saved. Paul speaks of this 'working out process' to perfection. Each walks in the spirit at difference paces or strides....we all want to cooperate and obey God as humanly possible...

Bless you,

APAK

Amen!

 

[Triumph1300]

You come across as a racist brainwashed fool.

Not worth responding.

 

[Triumph1300]

Thing is you can't respond to me because you will make a fool of yourself.

I don't respond because I know by now that it would result in more name calling on your part.
And secondly you'r ramblings against the Jewish people are out of line.
Just because you hate the Jewish people is no reason to spit it all out on this forum.
I have seen enough of it.

Good bye.

 

[Nancy]

Not worth responding.

Woah- that RB guy sure has a way with words huh? Wonder if he ever reads ANY of these scriptures"
https://www.openbible.info/topics/words_of_my_mouth

 

[bbyrd009]

Were the disciples saved before Jesus ascended to heaven?

what do you mean by "saved?" Which of the four or so defs that you recently posted elsewhere are you going by? ty

There are many pastors today saying that in the OT some people were saved through faith and grace of the same faith and grace as of today, ‘under grace.’ What do you think?

yup. Scripture seems pretty clear on the matter too imo

What does it mean to be credited with righteousness? Is it the same as being ‘saved?’

notice this preoccupation with this concept we deem "saved?" What does this even mean? Do you believe an "on/off" switch is thrown after a public profession? A statement of beliefs?

Did the OT folks have two ways or no way to salvation?

nope, they had one way imo, just like anyone at any time ever does

Did they gain salvation by demonstrating faith with works, faith alone, or belief in a future Messiah that would die for their sins, or not at all?

And where does the Law fit in all this fit as it relates to salvation before Christ’s ascension?

Is there a difference in the ‘grace’ bestowed upon folks in the OT and the NT for salvation?

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I don't respond because I know by now that it would result in more name calling on your part.
And secondly you'r ramblings against the Jewish people are out of line.
Just because you hate the Jewish people is no reason to spit it all out on this forum.
I have seen enough of it.

Good bye.

You do not even know who a Jew is do you truly and nor do most Christians, because most are brainwashed and never bother to look into anything at all.
I however have been surrounded by Jewish people all my life and most close people I know well all my life are Jewish, I can go to live in the State called Israel if I waned to, but I am a Christian and that's because I got the message, I myself know who Jesus Christ is in fact do you comprehend that, I don't think you can.
My points on the Jews is correct and a fact, this nonsense that you have conjured up about me being out of line, is just typical ramblings of a typical underhanded Nazi type of Socialist con job claiming that I am out of line, out of line with what ? the Satanic foolish Political Correctness gods that only fools worship nowadays.

1 Tell me who are the Jews ? are they a race or a religion, fact is such is a religion only to be truthful.

2 How about Semitic what does that truly mean in fact, well I will inform you that the Semitic people were in the lands and that a group within the Semitic people are known as Hebrews separated apart from the others, do you know how that word Hebrew came about ? I am sure you don't just like you do not know your Bible history and that's typical of dilettantes.
So that why is it that such a one is claiming that they know better than me in there total ignorance and making out that I hate the Jews, really that truly is really insulting to me but I know that you have no idea what you are talking about at all and that's typical of most TV educated dolts that are about.

Have you ever had your dad tell you about what his mum and dad were going to do with him and his brothers and sisters if the Socialist Nazis came and took over the Nation from a young age, so don't play such pathetic childish games with me, I come across ignorant dolts like that all the time and it does not impress me at all.

3 If one claims that the Jews are a race of people, such a definition is truly full on just total racist bigotry and if one does not understand that one must be ether a dolt or brainwashed, not to mention of the Anti-Christ.
There is no superior race coming to save you bro, the only one who Saves is Jesus Christ and one would know that if they study the Bible in fact.
There is no second Jesus Christ coming you know, because he is one and the same just as the Bible says that he is the beginning and the end.

The god that the New Age people are looking forward to is Satan and all his Anti-Christ, got that.
I am talking about Jesus Christ boy ! and not some foolish idolatry of Talmud Zionist Socialist creeps claiming to be the Jews and doing mans works.
Did you know that the true dedicated educated Jews of the OT that do understand who this so called Zionist mob truly are and one would understand that fact, if one bothered to look into it and not sit back in total ignorance of the fact and any true dedicated Christian know that is a fact.

You want to try and seek and knock and not just slander me with such stupid foolish contempt boy.
You can't even debate me because you know that you will make a fool of yourself, but you only love to try and make out that I am wrong in the eyes of the uneducated to make yourself look good, could such be typical of a Anti-Christ who is looking for another Jesus and can't see the forest for the trees, it's as simple as that Jesus Christ is hear, but one has to come to him and put all your faith in him, yes all and if one is looking for another Jesus, well that proves that such a one does not have Jesus Christ at all in their Heart, they don't do his will, such are at his left hand, did you know that.

I am talking about Jesus Christ and not religious nonsense, now if one can comprehend that, you will understand were am coming from, I don't give a toss about religion or about race and I don't care who one thinks they are.

Jesus Christ is a very simple massage you all and all one has to do is pick up the free gift and abide in him.

Satan come across as a tempter to delude the whole world but truly has nothing to offer.