Salvation Not Possible Without Works

[logabe]

Paul never said we were saved by grace... period.

I beg to differ Ernest... I think you need to understand what Paul is really saying. You use Rom. 5:2 to
establish entering God's Grace through faith. Paul is talking to people who have already received faith
from God, and now they can GROW in this Grace through faith. Paul is talking about maturing as a Son
of God by exercising their faith to understand the abundance of Grace that God sheds upon all. It takes
faith to access the divine nature that changes your attitude toward the ways of God (2nd Peter 1:4).

You can try to establish your doctrine with that scripture, but let's look @ what Paul said in the same book
of Romans 4:2-5.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast
about; but not before God.
3 For what does the scripture say? "And Abraham believed God and
it was reckoned to him for righteousness".
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but
as of what is due (he get's paid in this life).
5 But the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the
ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

In other words, what we do doesn't save us, but what we believe does. My point
is, we can't believe it if God doesn't shed his grace first. Look @ the people that
don't believe you should be baptized. By faith in the Word of God, I believe a
person should be baptized. Why? Because the Word says so, and it establishes
the legality of the New Covenant. If you don't get baptized, then you probably
don't believe it enough to act upon God's work, which will disqualify you to have
a part in the 1st Resurrection.

If we believe that Jesus died and was buried and was raised from the dead we are
justified through the Blood of the Lamb (Rom. 4:25). If we believe that we can work
to please God within ourselves our faith is worthless, and we are still in our sins (1st
Cor. 15:17).

We are saved by Grace, which is favor that we don't deserve, but God in his mercy
and grace shows us his way by opening our understanding so we can understand the
scriptures (Rom. 5:19). As Paul says, I am crucified with Christ, and it is no more me,
but it is Christ that lives in me that does the works ( Gal. 2:20). As Christians, we must
give God all the glory for the things He has done through the man, Jesus Christ! Don't
put the cart before the horse.

Keep reading in Romans 5:18-19 and you will discover God's Grace was shed before
anyone believed.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

 

[Floyd]

Well said Logabe!
Floyd.

 

[KingJ]

There is no bypassing James 4:8! Nobody can 'believe / have genuine faith' unless God reveals Jesus as Lord to them. God only does this if we draw near to Him (works showing a heart after His James 1:27 and not Matt 7:22-23). He searches our hearts and minds Jer 17:10. James 4:8 leads to 2 Cor 5:17 and 1 Cor 12:3. We cannot truly believe / receive salvation unless we repent and grab hold of it like the young rich man.

James 4:8 is achieved with verses like Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, Rom 12:9.

In other words, what we do doesn't save us, but what we believe does.

We can't believe as we need to unless we first draw near to God / have a heart after His.

I think everyone is just confusing the word ''works''. Doing things to please the one we love is not really ''works''.

 

[Floyd]

KingJ: the need for sincerity is without question!
Your quoted verse:Jms.4:8, seems clear; however, it must be borne in mind that he wrote in the early part of Acts, and prior to the Jerusalem Council of AD45.
The relevance of that is two fold.
1) up until the end of Acts (28:28), the prime object of all evangelical effort was Israel, with the gentile 2nd!
2) after the end of Acts, the gentile became prime object, with the Jew 2nd; and with a "veil over their understanding"!
The current period now in force since that time is "the mystery church" period of lucid description by Paul.
Paul wrote 7 more books/documents after Acts28:28, which are precision for this "church" period, and give great clarity when understood, and not mixed with pre-Acts 28 Doctrine, relevant to 1) above!
They are: Eph.; Philippians; Col.; Titus; Philemon; 1&2 Tim.
That is not to say that "all Scripture" is not relevant, it is of course; but "Administration" change had changed the emphasis for the "mystery Church".
The fact that this differentiation is not seen, taught or mostly not understood, causes great unnecessary heartache and argument; and can be laid at the door of the current authorised teachers of most Groups throughout the world!
Floyd.

 

[IBeMe]

-------
logabe : In other words, what we do doesn't save us, but what we believe does.
-------

The collection of what we do is our deeds; works.

We enter the covenant by Grace; it's a gift from God and there's nothing we can ever do to deserve it.

Failure of the covenantee to abide by the terms of the covenant removes the covenantor's responsibility to deliver the promise of the covenant.

The terms of the covenant require actions on the part of the covenantee; works.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth (Works) the will of my Father which is in heaven.

The covenantor, Who is a Dictator, demands compliance with the terms of the covenant.

Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you ...

You can't enter the covenant by works; but the covenantor demands works.

I know thy works ... he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end ... and I will give unto every one of you according to your works

As Paul says, faith without good works is reprobate.

They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

This is the doctrine of Christ; Ye are my friends, if ye do (works) whatsoever I command you.

Christians are warned not to receive those teaching anti-doctrine of Christ.

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

Ignoring God is also "works", evil deeds.

Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, (Works) I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:


wise man = doeth them = works of obedience
foolish man = doeth them not = works of disobedience

For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.

But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.

We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.


Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.
.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Paul never said we were saved by grace... period.

I beg to differ Ernest... I think you need to understand what Paul is really saying. You use Rom. 5:2 to
establish entering God's Grace through faith. Paul is talking to people who have already received faith
from God, and now they can GROW in this Grace through faith. Paul is talking about maturing as a Son
of God by exercising their faith to understand the abundance of Grace that God sheds upon all. It takes
faith to access the divine nature that changes your attitude toward the ways of God (2nd Peter 1:4).

You can try to establish your doctrine with that scripture, but let's look @ what Paul said in the same book
of Romans 4:2-5.

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast
about; but not before God.
3 For what does the scripture say? "And Abraham believed God and
it was reckoned to him for righteousness".
4 Now to the one who works, his wage is not reckoned as a favor, but
as of what is due (he get's paid in this life).
5 But the one who does not work, but believes in him who justifies the
ungodly, his faith is reckoned as righteousness.

In other words, what we do doesn't save us, but what we believe does. My point
is, we can't believe it if God doesn't shed his grace first. Look @ the people that
don't believe you should be baptized. By faith in the Word of God, I believe a
person should be baptized. Why? Because the Word says so, and it establishes
the legality of the New Covenant. If you don't get baptized, then you probably
don't believe it enough to act upon God's work, which will disqualify you to have
a part in the 1st Resurrection.

If we believe that Jesus died and was buried and was raised from the dead we are
justified through the Blood of the Lamb (Rom. 4:25). If we believe that we can work
to please God within ourselves our faith is worthless, and we are still in our sins (1st
Cor. 15:17).

We are saved by Grace, which is favor that we don't deserve, but God in his mercy
and grace shows us his way by opening our understanding so we can understand the
scriptures (Rom. 5:19). As Paul says, I am crucified with Christ, and it is no more me,
but it is Christ that lives in me that does the works ( Gal. 2:20). As Christians, we must
give God all the glory for the things He has done through the man, Jesus Christ! Don't
put the cart before the horse.

Keep reading in Romans 5:18-19 and you will discover God's Grace was shed before
anyone believed.

What a God! What a Plan!

Logabe

Rom 4:2-5 does not say we are saved by grace period. Again, in Eph 2:8 Paul says it takes God's grace and man's faith for one to be saved and Paul did not contradict himself.

In the context of Rom 4:2-5 they type of work Paul is speaking about that does not save are works of merit. In verse 3 Paul says "Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness" and Paul contrasts Abraham's obedient, working belief to the works of verse 4 "Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt"

In verse 4 the type of work Paul has under consideration that does not save is works of merit..."not reckoned of grace but of debt".. and NOT obedience to God's will. If you could keep God's law perfectly then your savlation would be one of debt and not of grace. If you could keep God's law perfectly then you would be sinless and a sinless person does not need grace so your reward is adebt owed to you. And Paul contrasts works of merit to an obeidnet faith as Abraham had. Abraham was not perfectly sinless so he was not a wroker trying to merit savlation by keeping God's law perfectly. But he had an obedient faith, Heb 11:8, that was reckoned him as righteous.



Jn 6:27-29 Jesus calls belief a work. In verse 28 the people asked Jesus "What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?" They asked what they must DO and Jesus gave them the work of believing to do. Jesus did NOT answer their question as a Baptist preacher I heard once would say by telling them "do nothing lest you try and earn your salvation".
So if one has a biblical belief he is doing a work of God, he "worketh righteousness" Acts 10:35




So we are saved by grace, we are NOT saved by grace only. Salvation is a combination of God's grace and man's faith. Rom 5:2 mans' faith is what gives man access to God's grace, therefore....no faith = no grace

There is no bypassing James 4:8! Nobody can 'believe / have genuine faith' unless God reveals Jesus as Lord to them. God only does this if we draw near to Him (works showing a heart after His James 1:27 and not Matt 7:22-23). He searches our hearts and minds Jer 17:10. James 4:8 leads to 2 Cor 5:17 and 1 Cor 12:3. We cannot truly believe / receive salvation unless we repent and grab hold of it like the young rich man.

James 4:8 is achieved with verses like Matt 16:24, Psalm 51:17, Rom 12:9.


We can't believe as we need to unless we first draw near to God / have a heart after His.

I think everyone is just confusing the word ''works''. Doing things to please the one we love is not really ''works''.

James 4:7,8 "Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded."

One cannot be saved unless he submits/obeys, draws close to God, both are works man must do. It is also interesting to note that James also said " Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

Note that man is to cleanse his own hands and purify his own heart. As Peter said in 1 Pet 1:22 "Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit...."

Peter told his listeners in Acts 2:40 "Save yourselves from this untoward generation". Paul told Timothy to "save thyself" 1 Tim 4:16. It becomes too apparent that man does have a role in his own savlation in saving himself/purifying his own soul and that is done by obedient works, ie, obeying God's will. Man does not save himself and purify his own soul by doing nothing.


How does 1 Pet 1:22 say they had purified thier souls? By obeying the truth. What Peter says in 1 Pet 1:22 is what Jesus said in Jn 3:5. In Jn 3:5 Jesus made water baptism essential to salvation, water baptism being the point where the soul is purified/cleansed from sin/sins are remitted.


Jn 3:5---------------Spirit++++++++++++++water>>>>>>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Pet1:22-----------Spirit++++++++++++obeying the truth>>>>>>>>purified souls
1 Cor 12:13--------Spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>inthe body


Being in the kingdom, in the body and having soul purified are equivalent terms, they represent a saved position. Since there is just one way to be saved, then all three verses MUST express the same idea. So spirit is equivalent to spirit and "water" is equivalent to "obeying the truth" which is equivalent to "baptized". So the sense in which man "saves himself"/"purifies His soul' is when he obediently submits himself to water baptism where God cuts away the body of sin.



No obedient works = no salvation/no purified soul

 

[DPMartin]

Though yes this is all true
James:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

　
But what are the works you so blatantly seek to justify yourselves with? What did Jesus say the works of the Father are, that we should do?
And were of the things that Jesus said that the things He did, so should we be doing, if we are His? Could that be in the Power and Spirit, hence the verification that the Lord God Almighty is with you? James was one of the original twelve and one of the three closest to the Lord Jesus, hence people were healed, evil spirits cast out so on and so forth, by the power of God granted him by God through him in his presence. So what works are you people talking about that makes you righteous in the sight of God?

Do not the works prove thy faith? Then where are the works that are of God? Though feeding the poor and housing the homeless is better then not doing so, those who don’t believe as in secular originations do the same all the time. Therefor that doesn’t really prove thy faith does it? Going to a designated place and making pledges doesn’t prove thy faith no more then people pledging allegiants to the flag in the USA every morning, and then doing otherwise.

　
Works of yourselves to the fulfillment of yourselves proves nothing. Works that are of God in your presence that others see (witness) proves that God is with you and therefore justified. And it’s the arrogant fool that tries to tell others he is justified by his works, but the meek and the humble know that it is the work that is of God, hence God’s doing in and with that person the is honored and respected by that person. Also that same person may never get the recognition from the people around him, but it’s the Lord God’s recognition that counts.

1Cor:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

　
Prov:16:11: A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Hence the proof that Jesus showed the Apostles. His resurrection the proof of the Faith of Christ. Which was done by the power of God hence a work that is a result of faith that is of God’s doing.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Though yes this is all true
James:2:17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

　
But what are the works you so blatantly seek to justify yourselves with? What did Jesus say the works of the Father are, that we should do?
And were of the things that Jesus said that the things He did, so should we be doing, if we are His? Could that be in the Power and Spirit, hence the verification that the Lord God Almighty is with you? James was one of the original twelve and one of the three closest to the Lord Jesus, hence people were healed, evil spirits cast out so on and so forth, by the power of God granted him by God through him in his presence. So what works are you people talking about that makes you righteous in the sight of God?

Do not the works prove thy faith? Then where are the works that are of God? Though feeding the poor and housing the homeless is better then not doing so, those who don’t believe as in secular originations do the same all the time. Therefor that doesn’t really prove thy faith does it? Going to a designated place and making pledges doesn’t prove thy faith no more then people pledging allegiants to the flag in the USA every morning, and then doing otherwise.

　
Works of yourselves to the fulfillment of yourselves proves nothing. Works that are of God in your presence that others see (witness) proves that God is with you and therefore justified. And it’s the arrogant fool that tries to tell others he is justified by his works, but the meek and the humble know that it is the work that is of God, hence God’s doing in and with that person the is honored and respected by that person. Also that same person may never get the recognition from the people around him, but it’s the Lord God’s recognition that counts.

1Cor:3:11: For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12: Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13: Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14: If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15: If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
16: Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17: If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
18: Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise.
19: For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness.

　
Prov:16:11: A just weight and balance are the LORD's: all the weights of the bag are his work.

Hence the proof that Jesus showed the Apostles. His resurrection the proof of the Faith of Christ. Which was done by the power of God hence a work that is a result of faith that is of God’s doing.

One cannot be saved by doing his own works but must do God's works:

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Fleshly Israel was lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness (commandments).

Many fail to make the distinction between doing one's own works and doing God's works that God has given man. As Peter said in Acts 10:35 those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.

So what righteous works of God must man do to be accepted with God/be saved?

Believe Jn 8:24
Repent Lk 13:3,5
confess. Matt 10:32,33
be baptized, Mk 16:16
To become saved

and

do good works, Eph 2:10; keep Christ's works, being faithful unto death, Rev 2:10,26
to remain saved


So those that obey/work God's will, will be justified by those righteous works as was James point about Abraham. Abraham worked God's will by offering Isaac and his obedient work in offering Isaac justified him.

 

[[email protected]]

It takes obedient works of belief, repentance, confession and submitting to water baptism in order to become a Christian, Jn 8:24; Lk 13:3,5; Mt 10:32,33; Mk 16:16. After becoming a Christian, there are good works God has before ordained the Christian to walk in, Eph 2:10. One must be a Christian to be saved and it takes obedient works to become saved and good works to remain saved.
'Faith only' has no role in salvation at all.

A Christian is saved FOR good works, not BY them.

Salvation is by grace, so that no man can boast before God of what he has done.

Grace is GOD'S work in us to will and to work His good pleasure in the world.

Salvation isn't by works because you'd never know when you'd done enough.

Finally the stated idea here, if accepted, would take all the joy out of obedient giving - making it all obligation and duty and ritual performance.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

A Christian is saved FOR good works, not BY them.

Salvation is by grace, so that no man can boast before God of what he has done.

Grace is GOD'S work in us to will and to work His good pleasure in the world.

Salvation isn't by works because you'd never know when you'd done enough.

Finally the stated idea here, if accepted, would take all the joy out of obedient giving - making it all obligation and duty and ritual performance.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

One is saved by obedient works of believing, Jn 8:24; repenting, Lk 13:3,5 confessing, Mt 10:32,33 and being water baptized, Mk 16:16. Then upon becoming a Christian, then one must do good works, Eph 2:10.

The issue is can one who is ALREADY a Christian NOT do good works per Eph 2:10 and yet still maintian his salvation?

Some here think one does nothing to become saved and continues to do nothing to remain saved....which is not possible at all. One must obey God's will to become saved and do good works God preordained Christians to do, Eph 2:10, to remain saved.


"Salvation is not by works" is a common refrain of many, but it is not to be found in the NT gospel. No one was ever told "do nothing and thou shalt be saved". Jn 14:15 obedient works is how man shows his love toward God. Doing nothing therefore is showing lack of love toward God.

 

[DPMartin]

One cannot be saved by doing his own works but must do God's works:

Rom 10:3 "For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God."

Fleshly Israel was lost for they went about doing their OWN righteousness and would not submit/obey GOD'S righteousness (commandments).

Many fail to make the distinction between doing one's own works and doing God's works that God has given man. As Peter said in Acts 10:35 those that "worketh righteousness" are accepted with God.

So what righteous works of God must man do to be accepted with God/be saved?

Believe Jn 8:24
Repent Lk 13:3,5
confess. Matt 10:32,33
be baptized, Mk 16:16
To become saved

and

do good works, Eph 2:10; keep Christ's works, being faithful unto death, Rev 2:10,26
to remain saved


So those that obey/work God's will, will be justified by those righteous works as was James point about Abraham. Abraham worked God's will by offering Isaac and his obedient work in offering Isaac justified him.

Salvation is a matter of being born again, hence of the Spirit. And some one mentioned that Paul never said it was by grace one is saved. For that person I give you these to read:
Rom:4:16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom:5:15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
1Cor:10:30: For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No honest believer is going to tell you, you are wrong about what a child of God should be doing, but it seems your view of the text could be more of an American view. For example the word perfect. In the KJV one would look to the OED for a original definition or at the least the use of the word near or during 1600. Perfect a 1. Thoroughly made, formed, done, perfomed, carried out, accomplished. V. To bring to completion; to complete, finish, consummate; to carry through, accomplish.

　
James:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Hence the man says faith made perfect which is to say fulfilled complete in this case in God’s sight to God’s satisfaction. God’s Word spoken to Abraham was completed, fulfilled. If it wasn’t God’s Word to Abraham it wouldn’t mean a thing other than Isaac would think his father was insane. Therefore without God’s Word and without God’s witness of the fulfillment therefore according to His satisfaction, there was no righteousness of God accounted to Abraham. So as Jesus says the work of God is to believe:

Jn:6:28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Its simple he who believes will do accordingly to the witness of the Father, but he who says he believes but does nothing doesn’t believe. People do what they believe and respond to what they believe. You know a tree by the fruit it bears, so on and so forth. And that is all that James is pointing out. The same phony cretins that populate the so called Christian community are the same then in his day, as we see today. The many call themselves, but the few are actually called.

Hence if one doesn’t believe then surly he isn’t saved. Not complicated at all. This tunnel vision of James’ text always seem contrary to almost everything Paul writes on the same subject, but the truth is, it’s the interpretation of what James says that is contrary to the rest of scripture.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Salvation is a matter of being born again, hence of the Spirit. And some one mentioned that Paul never said it was by grace one is saved. For that person I give you these to read:
Rom:4:16: Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
Rom:5:15: But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom:11:6: And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.
1Cor:10:30: For if I by grace be a partaker, why am I evil spoken of for that for which I give thanks?
Eph:2:5: Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved
Eph:2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

No honest believer is going to tell you, you are wrong about what a child of God should be doing, but it seems your view of the text could be more of an American view. For example the word perfect. In the KJV one would look to the OED for a original definition or at the least the use of the word near or during 1600. Perfect a 1. Thoroughly made, formed, done, perfomed, carried out, accomplished. V. To bring to completion; to complete, finish, consummate; to carry through, accomplish.

　
James:2:22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Hence the man says faith made perfect which is to say fulfilled complete in this case in God’s sight to God’s satisfaction. God’s Word spoken to Abraham was completed, fulfilled. If it wasn’t God’s Word to Abraham it wouldn’t mean a thing other than Isaac would think his father was insane. Therefore without God’s Word and without God’s witness of the fulfillment therefore according to His satisfaction, there was no righteousness of God accounted to Abraham. So as Jesus says the work of God is to believe:

Jn:6:28: Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? 29: Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Its simple he who believes will do accordingly to the witness of the Father, but he who says he believes but does nothing doesn’t believe. People do what they believe and respond to what they believe. You know a tree by the fruit it bears, so on and so forth. And that is all that James is pointing out. The same phony cretins that populate the so called Christian community are the same then in his day, as we see today. The many call themselves, but the few are actually called.

Hence if one doesn’t believe then surly he isn’t saved. Not complicated at all. This tunnel vision of James’ text always seem contrary to almost everything Paul writes on the same subject, but the truth is, it’s the interpretation of what James says that is contrary to the rest of scripture.

Jn 3:5 is a reference to water bpatism.

To be saved requires one to believe, Jn 8:24, repent, Lk 13:3,5 confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized for remission of sins, Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38....unless someone is willing to argue that the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of CHrist lost in his unremitted sins can be saved.

I made the remark that Paul never said salvation was by "grace period". Nowhwere did Paul ever teach salvation was by grace only. Eph 2:8 Paul shows it took a combnination of both God's grace and the Ephesians faith to be saved.....salvation is by grace through faith. Rom 5:2 man's faith is what gives him access to God's grace. So no faith my part of man, then I have no access to God's grace. So I agree that grace saves but 'grace only" is not what the bible teaches that saves.



James 2:22 is was the works that perfect/complete/make whole the faith of Abraham. WIthout the works, then "faith only" is imperfect/not complete/not whole. In Leviticus is says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Well the life of faithisin the works. For as the flesh without bloodis dead, faithwithout works is dead. WOrks are an essential component of living vialbe faith. James said shew me thy faith without they works and I will shew they my faith by my works. The point being the works prove the faith. Prove to me your faith without works. WIthout Abrhams work in offering Issac he would not have been justified.


You post ".... he who says he believes but does nothing doesn’t believe"

I agree and this means salvation is not possible for me while i do nothing. Therefore works are necesary to become saved and to remain saved.

 

[williemac]

Jn 3:5 is a reference to water baptism.

To be saved requires one to believe, Jn 8:24, repent, Lk 13:3,5 confess, Mt 10:32,33 and be baptized for remission of sins, Mk 16:16 cf Acts 2:38....unless someone is willing to argue that the unbeliever, impenitent, denier of Christ lost in his unremitting sins can be saved.

I made the remark that Paul never said salvation was by "grace period". Nowhere did Paul ever teach salvation was by grace only. Eph 2:8 Paul shows it took a combnination of both God's grace and the Ephesians faith to be saved.....salvation is by grace through faith. Rom 5:2 man's faith is what gives him access to God's grace. So no faith my part of man, then I have no access to God's grace. So I agree that grace saves but 'grace only" is not what the bible teaches that saves.

Nice try. Paul also wrote Rom.10:9,10. There is no mention of water baptism there. Only faith and confession. The problem arises when people think that salvation is a formula. There are places where baptism is mentioned, places where it isn't, places where faith is mentioned only (Rom.5:1), places where confession of sin is mentioned (1John 1:9), and in Rom.10:9, confession of another sort.

But you did have the right idea in this reply, as Rom.5:2 states this: ..."through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand...."

Grace is the offering of a free gift. Faith is the receiving of it. But just to add one more kink into this, we find Rom.5:10, where Paul states that while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. What does that mean? It simply means that the life of Jesus is placed within us at the time of the new birth. The whole thing is about becoming a new creation.

I would suggest that we don't get caught up in formula thinking when it comes to a sincere heart response to God. I can say with confidence that God is not into disqualifying a person just because he did not cross his t's and dot his i's correctly. I can relay many testimonies where a person received the new birth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. This isn't a formula that has to be followed or one gets rejected for not doing it right.

And to top it all off, we have the information that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. So, one more piece to the puzzle. If a person was to get water baptized while in pride, the 'formula' goes south. This isn't about following all the right rules so much as humbly accepting the gift that is offered by way of the sacrifice of Jesus. It is a matter of the heart. God can sort out all the details eventually. A person with the right heart but the wrong information will not get lost through the cracks. God will not disqualify a person on a technicality. The law does that. We are not under law. Lawyers do that. God is not a lawyer. He is a judge. He knows how to peel away the layers and cut to the chase. He will neither be fooled by a person who happens to go through the motions correctly but is not sincere. There was never any intention to limit salvation to a formula.

 

[Floyd]

This is a circular arguer; who will never concede to Scripture!
Floyd.

 

[KingJ]

KingJ: the need for sincerity is without question!
Your quoted verse:Jms.4:8, seems clear; however, it must be borne in mind that he wrote in the early part of Acts, and prior to the Jerusalem Council of AD45.
The relevance of that is two fold.
1) up until the end of Acts (28:28), the prime object of all evangelical effort was Israel, with the gentile 2nd!
2) after the end of Acts, the gentile became prime object, with the Jew 2nd; and with a "veil over their understanding"!
The current period now in force since that time is "the mystery church" period of lucid description by Paul.
Paul wrote 7 more books/documents after Acts28:28, which are precision for this "church" period, and give great clarity when understood, and not mixed with pre-Acts 28 Doctrine, relevant to 1) above!
They are: Eph.; Philippians; Col.; Titus; Philemon; 1&2 Tim.
That is not to say that "all Scripture" is not relevant, it is of course; but "Administration" change had changed the emphasis for the "mystery Church".
The fact that this differentiation is not seen, taught or mostly not understood, causes great unnecessary heartache and argument; and can be laid at the door of the current authorised teachers of most Groups throughout the world!
Floyd.

I certainly respect and understand why you believe like that. I really don't like it when / grasp why Christians grab each others throats on this subject. Grace / OSAS vs pure Arminian. I am assuming you are OSAS with the way you mention the grace message?

I use to be 50/50 and then persuaded more to your side...but today I am leaning much more toward Arminian. Reason being '''God is impartial''. The requirements to come to God have been the same from day 1. Leviticus and Deutoronomy was always accompained by Psalm 51:17 and the like. If we repent / have a heart after God's heart we have an encounter with the Holy Spirit and get saved. OT you end up in Abrahams bosom. Just look at how God asked Adam and Eve where they were, like He didn't know. He asked Cain, where is his brother? God asked rhetorical questions wanting them to give account. 1 Cor 11:31 and Phil 2:12 applies to us all.

Now you and I have unity in that we will both agree that one who continues in mortal sin is en-route to hell. You would say he was never saved. I would say he is shipwrecking salvation.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Nice try. Paul also wrote Rom.10:9,10. There is no mention of water baptism there. Only faith and confession. The problem arises when people think that salvation is a formula. There are places where baptism is mentioned, places where it isn't, places where faith is mentioned only (Rom.5:1), places where confession of sin is mentioned (1John 1:9), and in Rom.10:9, confession of another sort.

But you did have the right idea in this reply, as Rom.5:2 states this: ..."through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand...."

Grace is the offering of a free gift. Faith is the receiving of it. But just to add one more kink into this, we find Rom.5:10, where Paul states that while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. What does that mean? It simply means that the life of Jesus is placed within us at the time of the new birth. The whole thing is about becoming a new creation.

I would suggest that we don't get caught up in formula thinking when it comes to a sincere heart response to God. I can say with confidence that God is not into disqualifying a person just because he did not cross his t's and dot his i's correctly. I can relay many testimonies where a person received the new birth and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit apart from water baptism. This isn't a formula that has to be followed or one gets rejected for not doing it right.

And to top it all off, we have the information that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. So, one more piece to the puzzle. If a person was to get water baptized while in pride, the 'formula' goes south. This isn't about following all the right rules so much as humbly accepting the gift that is offered by way of the sacrifice of Jesus. It is a matter of the heart. God can sort out all the details eventually. A person with the right heart but the wrong information will not get lost through the cracks. God will not disqualify a person on a technicality. The law does that. We are not under law. Lawyers do that. God is not a lawyer. He is a judge. He knows how to peel away the layers and cut to the chase. He will neither be fooled by a person who happens to go through the motions correctly but is not sincere. There was never any intention to limit salvation to a formula.

If the argument is that water baptism is not necessary because it is not specifically mentioned in Rom 10:9,10, then one could also argue repentance, grace, the blood of Christ are also not necessary since they are not specifically mentioned in Rom 10:9,10.


Paul already wrote about the necessity of repentance in Rom 2 and the necessity of baptism in Rom 6, so Paul would not turn around and contradict himself in the very same epistle.

Psa 139:17 "How precious also are thy thoughts unto me, O God! how great is the sum of them"
Acts 20:27 "For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God."

One must consider the sum, total, all of God's word and cannot just cherry-pick out two verses. Cherry-picking just two verses while ignoring dozens of other salvic verses creates contradictions and leaves one lacking on the totality of the subject.


Secondly, the bible uses a figure of speech called a synecdoche where a part stands for the whole.

Examples: in 1 Pet 3:21 Peter said baptism saves, Peter did NOT say "baptism alone" saves. So baptism is used as a synecdoche where the part (baptism) stands for the whole (belief, repentance and confession).

Acts 2:41 "...they that gladly received his word were baptized..."
Acts 2:44 "And all that believed were together..."

Those baptized in v41 are said to be those that "believed" in v44. So 'believed' in v44 is used as a synecdoche where it includes being baptized of v41.


So in Rom 10:9,10 the words "believe" and "confession" would include repentance and baptism.

Lastly, Paul also said in the context "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Rom 10:13.

In Acts 22:16, when Paul was water baptized he was calling on the name of the Lord.

In Acts 2:21 Peter quoted Joel's prophecy "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved"

Peter's listeners ask him what shall they do, v37

In v38 Peter tells them how to call upon the name of the Lord when he commanded them to repent and be baptized.

Harmonizing verse 21 with verse 38:


v21--------whosoever---------------------------calls----------------------------------name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
v38--------every one of you-------------repent and be baptized---------------in name of the Lord>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>remisson of sins


So calling on the name of the Lord includes repentance and baptism.



Therefore just because baptism is not specifically mentioned in Rom 10, it is there.



You post "Grace is the offering of a free gift. Faith is the receiving of it."

So salvation is not by "grace only" nor is it by "faith only", it takes both God's grace and man's faith making salvation conditional upon man having and maintain faith.

Rom 5:10 does not say we are saved by His life by faith only.


Because of Jesus life, death, burial and resusrection, what saves us is:

Belief, Jn 8:25
repentance, Lk 13:3,5
confession, Matt 10:32,33
baptism, Mk 16:16

These things save because of the life of Christ. Whether one wants to call this a "fomula" or not does not matter for these things are essential to savlation, and there is no pride in following this formula, one is simply doing what is his duty to do in obeying God's commands.


Since you do not like the idea of there being a "formula" to follow, you are arguing that unbelief saves, impenitence saves, denying Christ saves, being lost in unremitted sins saves.

 

[Floyd]

ETB; there is too much error in your use of Scripture to begin to unravel your wrongly held convictions!
As a matter of interest, what is the teaching background you have?
Floyd.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

ETB; there is too much error in your use of Scripture to begin to unravel your wrongly held convictions!
As a matter of interest, what is the teaching background you have?
Floyd.

Please demonstrate just one of my errors, for if I am in error I would like to see it shown/proven to me and I will change.

My background is simply studying the bible with a "clean slate", meaning I do not approach the bible with preconcieved ideas. I let the bible detemine for me what it teaches instead of me trying to change the bible to make it fit what I think is right. If the bible taught "belief only" saves, then that is what I would believe. This is not rocket science we are dealing with here, and I admit I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but it remains mind-boggling to me how any one can take salvic verses as Jn 3:16 and Lk 13:3 and come away with the idea that "belief only" saves, other than "belief only" was his preconceived idea to begin with.

Knowing there is:

1) just one way to be saved,

and

2)the bible does not contradict itself,

then combining those two verses, it is simple to see that savlation takes at least belief and repentance...that all the "belief only" in the world can never save an impenitent person. Then considering Matt 10:32,33 and Mk 16:16 is is just as clear to see that the bible makes confession and baptism just as essential as belief and repentance.


I also understand that the bble speaks of many different types of works: works of God, works of Satan, works of righteousness, works of unrighteousness, works of the flesh, works of merit, good works, evil works etc, and all these works are NOT THE SAME. So when the bible says "not of works" it is NOT excluding ALL these works.

I also understand the idea that just because one does a work, that work does not automatically, necessarily mean he is trying to earn something. I understand that free gifts can and do come with conditions and meeting those conditions does NOT earn the free gift already offered up front.

 

[Floyd]

ETB: keep studying!
Floyd.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

ETB: keep studying!
Floyd.

Are you going to point out just one of the supposed errors you accuse me of having? (backed with biblical proof, of course)