Do you have a SPECIFIC subject complaint?
It appeared your SPECIFIC subject was regarding the term DEATH…
Correct or not?
IF correct…expressly identify your complaint.
IF not…expressly identify your complaint.
SALVATION OF ANIMALS
- Thread starter Cassandra
- Start date
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Do you have a SPECIFIC subject complaint?
It appeared your SPECIFIC subject was regarding the term DEATH…
Correct or not?
IF correct…expressly identify your complaint.
IF not…expressly identify your complaint.
I don't have complaints, I have disagreements with what you have written! I said that you had written things (plural) that I did not agree with.
Since you told me to go and search the Scriptures to see if what you had written was correct, I'm tempted to say, search my posts to find out what I disagree with. But I'm not as lazy as you so I'll do it myself and summarise my disagreements:
- You said "Un-saved departed souls go to hell, experiencing absolute separation from God". Our conversation started (in my post #238) when I commented that someone going to hell can't be "separation from God" because the Scriptures say that God is in hell (sheol), so anyone in hell is not separated from God. You keep stating that "Spiritual Death…is separation from God", but you still haven't shown any Scriptural support for that, nor defined what you mean by "spiritual death".
- Where in Scripture does it say that angels are immortal (as you claimed)?
- How can hell, which you say contains the lake of fire, be thrown into the lake of fire?
- You claim that God has created a literal place for "particular beings" which you say is "the lake of fire and brimstone". I said that the lake of fire and sulphur (brimstone) is not a literal place but that it is symbolic of utter destruction and death (post #241).
You want to discuss DISAGREEMENTS with the snarky personal comments add…OKAY.
Hab 1:
[12] Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.
[13] Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?
Uh oh…the UNSAVED SOULS are not to be LOOKED upon by God…(didn’t you get me saying….to maintain Gods Holiness)…
Are you UNAWARE…HELL had a DIVISION?
saved souls on one side of a great GULF…unsaved sous on the other side of the same great GULF…
Are you UNAWARE…JESUS IS FIRST IN ALL THINGS….?? Saved souls were sent to a comfort side of HELL….UNTIL…..Jesus arrived on earth, was killed, his living soul departed his dead body, his body was buried, his soul went to…..ta da…the comfort side of Hell…and mingled with, OBSERVED, LOOKED, SAW….those whose souls were saved….you know….Like Abraham, Issac, Jacob…Samuel….etc.
Instead of sending them a TEXT…I would bet Jesus…informed them….their saved souls would soon be LEAVING HELL and going to Heaven….they just needed to be patient a while longer….since Jesus’ (with his own soul), had to be FIRST to return to Heaven.
So…DID Jesus’ soul go to Hell…yep.
DID Jesus’ soul see, mingle with, the unsaved souls IN HeLL … nope.
How come you didn’t KNOW, Hell had more than one area?
Not moving on till this point resolved.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
You need to go back and learn grammar! present means present and future means future. God doesn't nned you to correct what you think are HIs mistakes in grammar.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
And yet Paul also declared under inspiration that we are already seated in heavenly places in Christ!
But yet you can write a lengthy epistle to tell me I am wrong! Interesting???
I agree, He was in Abrahams Bosom/Paradise where the righteous dead went to await Jesus' ascension.
That refers to our body.
I await what you believe the supposed parable of Lazarus and the rich man means.
Ephesians 2:4-7 (WEB):
(4) But God, being rich in mercy, for his great love with which he loved us,
(5) even when we were dead through our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
(6) and raised us up with him, and made us to sit with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
(7) that in the ages to come he might show the exceeding riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus;
You're getting confused by the tenses, taking it too literally! Paul said that God had (past tense) made us alive in Christ, i.e. when we were considered dead in our sins (though actually still alive, we were condemned to die because we had sinned), Christ died for us, and when we were joined to Christ by God's gift of faith we were considered rasied up with Jesus (past tense, yet clearly we have not yet been resurrected like Jesus was - we have to die first), and made to sit with Jesus in heaven (past tense, yet clearly we have not yet been caught up to heaven to be with Jesus). Paul is using past tense to say that it is a done deal, that we can be sure that what God has promised He will do. As Paul explains in Romans 4:17 (WEB):
(17) As it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations.” This is in the presence of him whom he believed: God, who gives life to the dead, and calls the things that are not, as though they were.
As Barnes Notes comments on the above verse:
That is, those things which he foretells and promises are so certain, that he may speak of them as already in existence. Thus, in relation to Abraham, God, instead of simply promising that he would make him the father of many nations, speaks of it as already done, “I have made thee,” etc. In his own mind, or purpose, he had so constituted him, and it was so certain that it would take place, that he might speak of it as already done.
Here's an explanation that I got from the Internet 24 years ago. As I said, it's long so I'll have to split it into three posts:
The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19-31
It is evident from the whole setting of this passage that it is a parable.
Otherwise the logical lesson to be drawn from it is that unless we are poor
beggars, full of sores, we will never enter eternal bliss; and that future
torment will be our portion if we happen to wear fine linen and purple and fare
sumptuously every day. And, if taken literally, those who are poor are taken,
not to heaven, but to Abraham's bosom. However, the context of this passage
shows that Christ in this parable was teaching a great dispensational truth,
namely, the change of favor from the Mosaic Law Covenant to the Covenant of
faith. (Luke 16:16-18; Galatians 3:6-29) If you read carefully the 32nd
chapter of Deuteronomy, you will see that Jesus was merely repeating in vivid
pictorial language what Moses had already said. See particularly verses 20 to
29; and also Paul's quotation of the 21st verse in Romans 10:19, where he shows
that Moses' prophecy referred to the overthrow of Israel consequent upon Jesus'
rejection of that nation.
Jesus was evidently drawing upon something that was in the real world, the
apostate Jewish belief which blended the Grecian philosophies into the Bible.
The Jewish leaders knew of these beliefs and it was the Jewish leaders that he
was addressing. He used their own beliefs, not to condone their apostate
beliefs, but to illustrate the change he had just spoken of: "The law and the
prophets were until John." -- Luke 16:16.
Some other reasons that this story should be viewed as a parable:
To think that Jesus was supporting the idea of eternal roasting after death by
use of this parable is contrary to God's justice, for justice demanded the
forfeiture of man's life for sin (Genesis 2:17), for "the wages of sin is
death" (Romans 6:23), and of God it is said (Psalm 145:20): "all the wicked
will he destroy." Therefore, it would be an infraction of God's justice for him
to preserve the wicked and eternally torture them.
Additionally, such a conclusion violates God's wisdom, for wisdom devises plans
which useful ends are attained. There is surely no useful purpose in keeping
the rich man eternally in a place of torture.
Of course, the parable says nothing about Lazarus remaining in hades for
eternity, but as Revelation 20:13 shows, all in hades will be brought back for
the judgment day, and then hades will be destroyed in the lake of fire. --
Revelation 20:14; See also Hosea 13:14.
If the Rich Man were in literal flames in hades, this could contradict the
entire testimony of the rest of the Bible, which shows that sheol/hades is
nothingness, oblivion, silence, destruction. -- Ecclesiastes 9:10; Psalm 6:5;
115:17; 146:3,4; Isaiah 38:18; 63:16; Job 14:21; etc. This has been showned
throughout this publication.
(Psalms 146:4) His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.
It would contradict God's stated purpose to bless mankind. -- Genesis 12:1-3.
It would contradict the ransom, which is clearly taught, for example, in 1
Corinthians 15:3,21,22, Hebrews 2:9; 1 Timothy 2:6, which scriptures teach that
Christ died (not suffered eternal torment) for our sins according to the
Hebrew scriptures. The prophecy of Isaiah 53:4-12 shows that our Lord would
bear our penalty (which is death -- Genesis 2:17; Romans 6:23 -- not eternal
torment), pouring out his soul to death. The effect of this ransom is to be the
salvation of all men, not the eternal torture of the vast majority. (1 Timothy
4:10; 1 John 2:2)
The rich man of the parable represented the proud and self-righteous of the
Jewish nation in our Savior's time, seeking righteousness by means of the Law
Covenant. (Galatians 2:21; Philippians 3:9; Romans 9:31,32) The Pharisees seem
to be particularly represented by the Rich Man. (Luke 16:14,15) The scribes
and Pharisees sat in Moses seat' (Matthew 23:2) as the religious leaders and
representatives in Israel. (Matthew 23:5-7) The Rich Man's clothing of purple
and fine linen represented the honors and privileges accorded to the scribes
and Pharisees. (Matthew 23:5-7) The fine linen represented the
self-righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, which they claimed by the Law.
(John 9:40,41) The purple clothing represented royalty -- not only was purple
the royal color in our Savior's day, but we still speak of royal purple.
(Judges 8:26; John 19:2,3; Mark 15:17,18) The scribes and Pharisees were
sitting in Moses' seat, therefore they had the purple in the sense that to it
belonged the honor of being the typical Kingdom of God, and the promises
respecting the future dominion of God as the Kingdom of God. The abundance of
food upon the Rich Man's table represented the abundance of divine promises and
blessings and instructions given to the scribes and Pharisees. (Romans 9:4,5)
It was this table of divine favors that the apostle referred to saying: "What
advantage does the Jew have? Much in every way, chiefly because to them were
committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:1-3) This was the table respecting
which the prophet and the apostle spoke concerning Israel: "Let their table
become a trap and a snare to them." (Romans 11:9) In other words, the very
bounties and blessings of God's revelations or oracles tended to make them not
humble, but proud, and ultimately assisted in their stumbling and rejection of
the Savior due to their insistence of their righteousness by works of the Law.
-- Romans 9:30-32.
The scribes and Pharisees would not so much as eat with any they considered as
sinners. (Matthew 9:11) They viewed Jewish sinners the same as if they were
Gentiles, without law. Those who accepted the Messiah's teachings were of this
lowly Jewish class. Matthew, one of his apostles, was a tax collector, others
were common fishermen. (Matthew 10:3; Mark 1:16,19) None of them were
recognized by the religious aristocracy of the time. They were looked down
upon, declared not to be heirs with the holy Pharisees and educated Scribes and
Doctors of the Law. The Pharisees even determined that Jesus himself was not
only a friend of publicans and sinners but an injurious person who must not be
allowed to live. (Matthew 12:14) From the Jewish leaders' standpoint Jesus and
his followers were all outside the gates, excluded from the special privileges
and blessings of God through the "righteousness" Law. These lowly Jewish
followers of Jesus were the first of the Lazarus class.
(To be continued.)
The Rich Man and Lazarus (part 2):
The Lazarus class also later included those Gentiles of humble heart who
accepted Jesus, thus becoming Jews inwardly and participants in the Abrahamic
promises. (Colossians 3:11; Galatians 3:28,29; Romans 2:28,29; 10:12) As an
illustration of how these fed on the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man's table
let us remember Jesus' words to the Syrophenician woman, a Gentile who came to
him entreating for the healing of her daughter. Our Master, to illustrate the
relative position of the Jews and Gentiles from God's standpoint, said to her:
"It is not proper to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs."
(Matthew 15:26) In other words, Jesus was saying: It would not be proper for me
to devote my time and energies to the blessing of yourself and daughter, who
are Gentiles, because the Jewish nation is by covenant in the favored place
with God. Any special blessings and favors that God has to give must be given
to them first of all. Non- Jews are not to expect to get the favors I was sent
to give to Israel.' We remember his words to the disciples also: "Do not go
into the way of the Gentiles, for I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." Matthew 15:24
The message and blessings and opportunities could not go to the Gentiles until
first they had been offered to the Jewish table (occupied by the Rich Man) and
had been rejected by all except a remnant the Jewish Lazarus class who would
seek righteousness by faith. (John 1:11,12; Romans 1:15; 2:9,10; 11:5; Matthew
22:3-10) But mark that as Lazarus got some of the "crumbs," according to the
parable, so did the Syrophenician woman. She exclaimed: "True, Lord. Yet the
dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." (Matthew 15:27;
Mark 7:28) Jesus answered her: "'O woman, your faith is great. Let it be to you
even as thou desire.' And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
(Matthew 15:28) Jesus gave her the crumb of faith from the children's table --
the table being occupied by the Rich Man.
The Death of Lazarus
In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the
Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and
everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as
literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different
subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement.
Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12,13: "From the days
of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward
vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits
adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits
adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable.
However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.
The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not
know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has
dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should
die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband
lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But
if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress,
though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have
become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we
have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were
held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by
the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.
When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This
signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in
Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it
is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18)
"When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4,5) They were being received
into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13,14.
Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to
the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the
believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.
The Death of the Rich Man
John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid
to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the
Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law.
(Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47- 49) As a rich man riding upon the Law
as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel,
pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of
righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by
the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and
seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the
righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31,32; 10:3
Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the
favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings
and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before
Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in
desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was
buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of
the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This
was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. --
Mark 15:38.
(To be continued.)
The Lazarus class also later included those Gentiles of humble heart who
accepted Jesus, thus becoming Jews inwardly and participants in the Abrahamic
promises. (Colossians 3:11; Galatians 3:28,29; Romans 2:28,29; 10:12) As an
illustration of how these fed on the crumbs that fell from the Rich Man's table
let us remember Jesus' words to the Syrophenician woman, a Gentile who came to
him entreating for the healing of her daughter. Our Master, to illustrate the
relative position of the Jews and Gentiles from God's standpoint, said to her:
"It is not proper to take the children's bread and give it to the dogs."
(Matthew 15:26) In other words, Jesus was saying: It would not be proper for me
to devote my time and energies to the blessing of yourself and daughter, who
are Gentiles, because the Jewish nation is by covenant in the favored place
with God. Any special blessings and favors that God has to give must be given
to them first of all. Non- Jews are not to expect to get the favors I was sent
to give to Israel.' We remember his words to the disciples also: "Do not go
into the way of the Gentiles, for I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the
house of Israel." Matthew 15:24
The message and blessings and opportunities could not go to the Gentiles until
first they had been offered to the Jewish table (occupied by the Rich Man) and
had been rejected by all except a remnant the Jewish Lazarus class who would
seek righteousness by faith. (John 1:11,12; Romans 1:15; 2:9,10; 11:5; Matthew
22:3-10) But mark that as Lazarus got some of the "crumbs," according to the
parable, so did the Syrophenician woman. She exclaimed: "True, Lord. Yet the
dogs eat of the crumbs that fall from their masters' table." (Matthew 15:27;
Mark 7:28) Jesus answered her: "'O woman, your faith is great. Let it be to you
even as thou desire.' And her daughter was made whole from that very hour."
(Matthew 15:28) Jesus gave her the crumb of faith from the children's table --
the table being occupied by the Rich Man.
The Death of Lazarus
In the context of this parable Jesus said the following: "The Law and the
Prophets were until John. Since then the kingdom of God has been preached, and
everyone is pressing into it." (Luke 16:16) To those who view this parable as
literal, this statement would seem to be dealing with a completely different
subject. Yet Jesus gave the parable as an illustration of this very statement.
Jesus made a similar statement as recorded in Matthew 11:12,13: "From the days
of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven is pressing forward
vigorously and those who are vigorous seize it eagerly. For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
Jesus also stated: "Whoever puts away his wife, and marries another, commits
adultery: and whoever marries her that is put away from her husband commits
adultery." (Luke 16:18) Again, this seems to be unrelated to the parable.
However, it has much to do with the parable as we will see.
The parable tells us: "The beggar died and was carried by the angels to
Abraham's bosom." The death of the beggar illustrates the Jew who puts his
faith in Jesus as figuratively dying with Jesus. Thus Paul says: "Do you not
know, brothers, (for I speak to them that know the law,) that the law has
dominion over a man as long as he lives? For the woman which has a husband is
bound by the law to her husband so long as he lives. But if the husband should
die, she is released from the law of her husband. So then if, while her husband
lives, she should marry to another man, she will be called an adulteress. But
if her husband should die, she is free from that law; so she is no adulteress,
though she should marry another man. Therefore, my brothers, you also have
become dead to the law by the body of Christ, that you should be married to
another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth
fruit unto God. For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were
by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. But now we
have been delivered from the law, because being dead to that in which we were
held, we should serve in a new manner by spirit, and not in the old manner by
the letter." (Romans 7:1-6) Notice how well this parallels Luke 16:18.
When Lazarus died, he was taken by the angels to Abraham's bosom. This
signifies the faith-believing Jew becoming part of the true seed of Abraham in
Jesus by promise apart from the Law. "For if the inheritance be of the law, it
is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise." (Galatians 3:18)
"When the full measure of time had come, God sent forth his Son, made of a
woman, made under the Law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we
might receive the adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4,5) They were being received
into the favored position before God. -- Romans 4:13,14.
Likewise, the believing Gentile also, being a law unto himself, had to die to
the Law of Sin that ruled in his body. (Romans 2:12-15; 3:9-20) Thus both the
believing Jew as well as the believing Gentile are represented in Lazarus.
The Death of the Rich Man
John the Baptist warned the Pharisees and Sadducees: "Even now the ax is laid
to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree that does not bear good fruit is
cut down and thrown into the fire." (Matthew 3:10) The Pharisees, the
Sadducees, and the scribes claimed to be the representatives of that law.
(Matthew 12:2; 19:3; 22:34-36; John 7:47- 49) As a rich man riding upon the Law
as a means to righteousness, they missed the righteousness of God. "Israel,
pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of
righteousness. Why? because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by
the works of the law. . . . For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and
seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the
righteousness of God." -- Romans 9:31,32; 10:3
Did the Jewish nation, seeking righteousness after the law, continue in the
favor of God? Or, on the other hand did that nation die to special blessings
and mercies of God that they previously so richly enjoyed? Shortly before
Jesus died, he wept over Jerusalem and said: "Your house is left to you in
desolation." Thus the parable continues: "The rich man also died, and was
buried." With the rejection of the national polity of Jerusalem, the city of
the Jews, Rich Man died, for he no longer had any standing before Yahweh. This
was signified by the vail being ripped apart in the temple at Jesus' death. --
Mark 15:38.
(To be continued.)
The Rich Man and Lazarus (part 3):
The Rich Man in Torments
Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So
much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they
persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment
of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the
captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the
other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay
them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they
heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with
their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by
Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself
states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that
beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians
1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the
name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of
the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests.
When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished
them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being
exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities."
(Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching
of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A
successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.
The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his
finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the
flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help
from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for
water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was
happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They
wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a
distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments
they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman
yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined
Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the
leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius
Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering
the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than
through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus
over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham
reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while
Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the
Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus
was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in
anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.
The Chasm
Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf)
between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between
faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man,
representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could
not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the
Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing
those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law,
could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing
parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would
be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in
seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man
class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept
righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek
righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to
bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to
take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man,
neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.
The Rich Man's Brothers
Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his
father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of
torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken
prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people
was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners.
Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began
to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the
Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a
Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but
to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt.
In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor
his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who
would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they
had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told,
would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to
the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their
death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7,8,11; 7:4) To do so would have meant
they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus
Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and
the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those
dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not
listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city
of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the
year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of
the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.
The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who
dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six --
the number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of
the six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the
lamb.
Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and
Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death
Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16;
cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything
about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer
to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which
is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the
Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken
from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that
becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is
pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as
a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and
gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you
how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her
offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left
to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time
comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'" (Luke
13:34,35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham
going to heaven when he died.
Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in
the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will
be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with
men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is
referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made
perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39,40) Nothing is
stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's
soul went to heaven when he died.
The Rich Man in Torments
Then we read that the Rich Man, in Hades, lifted up his eyes, being in
torments, and he saw Abraham in the distance, and Lazarus in his bosom. So
much were the Jewish leaders tormented by the change of conditions that they
persecuted the followers of Jesus, even to putting them to death. The torment
of the Jewish leaders is demonstrated at Acts 5:33, when the high priest, the
captain of the temple, and the chief priests heard the things Peter and the
other apostles told them: "They were cut to the heart, and took counsel to slay
them." They demonstrated a similar torment at the words of Stephen: "When they
heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with
their teeth." (Acts 7:54) The fulfillment of this is also well-illustrated by
Saul (before he became Paul the apostle), who was a Pharisee. Paul himself
states: "For you have heard of my past conduct in the Jews' religion, how that
beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and destroyed it." (Galatians
1:13) "I actually thought to myself, that I should do many things to oppose the
name of Jesus of Nazareth. These things I did also in Jerusalem, and many of
the saints I put into prison, having received authority from the chief priests.
When they were being put to death, I gave my voice against them. I punished
them often in every synagogue, and compelled them to blaspheme. Being
exceedingly angry against them, I persecuted them even in foreign cities."
(Acts 26:9-11) Their torment of feeling the rejection of God by the preaching
of Jesus' followers led them to try to prove that they had not been rejected. A
successful revolt against the Roman yoke would be such a proof.
The Rich Man asks Abraham to send Lazarus, that he might dip the tip of his
finger in water and cool the Rich Man's tongue while he is tormented in the
flames. (Luke 16:24) The Rich Man is not here really wanting to receive help
from the Lazarus class. He speaks, not to Lazarus, but to Abraham, asking for
water from Lazarus. The Jewish leaders began to realize that something was
happening. They did not want to admit that they had missed the Messiah. They
wanted Messiah to deliver them, but on their own terms. Seeing Lazarus at a
distance, they desired a Messiah, someone to deliver them from the torments
they had come into. Especially were they seeking deliverance from the Roman
yoke. In May, 66 CE, the group known as Zealots, with whom were joined
Pharisees and Sadducees, openly rebelled against Roman rule. Under the
leadership of one Joseph Ben Matthias, a Pharisee (better known as Flavius
Josephus), the Jews repulsed the Roman armies for 47 days before surrendering
the fortress of Jotapata. By seeking deliverance from another source than
through faith in Jesus they in effect were saying to Abraham: "Send Lazarus
over to us, that he may cool our tongue." Returning to the parable, Abraham
reminded the Rich Man how he had the good things during his lifetime, while
Lazarus received bad things. The Rich Man had all the favors -- the Law and the
Prophets. "To them were committed the oracles of God." (Romans 3:2) Now Lazarus
was comforted with the knowledge of the Good News, while the Rich Man was in
anguish. -- Luke 16:25; Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 1:3-6.
The Chasm
Then Abraham informs the Rich Man that there is a great chasm (canyon, gulf)
between the Rich Man and himself. This chasm represents the difference between
faith in Jesus and the seeking of righteousness through the Law. The Rich Man,
representing those holding to the Law and denying Jesus as the Messiah, could
not cross over the chasm to the other side in an endeavor to blend faith in the
Messiah with seeking righteousness by Law. Likewise, Lazarus, representing
those who are justified by faith in Jesus apart from the works of the Law,
could not cross the chasm to the other side so as to blend the two opposing
parties. Any individual Jew putting faith in Jesus (apart from the Law) would
be represented in the Lazarus class. Any individual Jew who continued in
seeking righteousness according to the Law would be represented by the Rich Man
class. The Jew could be represented by one or the other. One could not accept
righteousness through faith in the Messiah and at the same time seek
righteousness by Law. Such would be crossing the chasm, that is, trying to
bring salvation by works of the Law over to the side of Lazarus, or trying to
take salvation by faith in the Messiah over to the side of the Rich Man,
neither of which could be done. -- Galatians 2:16,21.
The Rich Man's Brothers
Next, the Rich Man, again addressing Abraham, asks for Lazarus to go to his
father's house to warn his five brothers, that they not come into the place of
torment he was in. (Luke 16:28) In the years 67-68 CE many Jews were taken
prisoners by Vespasian. A knowledge that God was punishing the chosen people
was growing amongst many of the Jewish people who had been taken prisoners.
Josephus was among these. Another Pharisee, Jochanan ben Zakkai, likewise began
to recognize that it was not God's will for the Jews to be freed from the
Romans. These prisoners and others, in effect, were asking Abraham for a
Messiah, not to deliver the remaining revolting Jews from the Roman yoke, but
to warn them of the tragedy that was to come if they continued in their revolt.
In doing this, however, they still did not recognize Jesus as the Messiah nor
his followers as the true Lazarus. They wanted a justification, a Lazarus who
would come to help their "brothers" under the Law. Abraham replied that they
had Moses and the Prophets; they could listen to them. These, we are told,
would lead them to the Messiah. (Galatians 3:24) To send the true Lazarus to
the "brothers" of the Rich Man, would have necessitated the revoking of their
death to sin and the law. (Romans 6:2,7,8,11; 7:4) To do so would have meant
they would become "twice dead" condemned to death twice by the law of sin. Thus
Abraham told the Rich Man that if his brothers would not listen to Moses and
the Prophets, neither would they listen to one who rose from the dead -- those
dead with Messiah. The remaining Jews in Jerusalem, Masada, etc., did not
listen to Moses and the Prophets, they continued their rebellion until the city
of Jerusalem with its temple was totally destroyed in the year 70 CE. In the
year 73 the siege of Masada ended in disastrous results to the "brothers" of
the Rich Man. Jesus does not take the narrative any further.
The number of "brothers" used in the parable is a total of six; the one who
dies and the five who remain alive. We believe this number -- six --
the number of imperfection, is used to represent the unrighteous condition of
the six brothers, that is, they had not been justified in the blood of the
lamb.
Some try to show that Abraham's bosom in the parable of the Rich Man and
Lazarus represents heaven or paradise. They argue: "The fact that at death
Abraham's soul went to heaven is plainly stated in Scripture (Hebrews 11:10,16;
cf. Matthew 8:11)" Yet, neither Hebrews 11:10,16 nor Matthew 8:11 say anything
about Abraham's continuance of life in heaven while in death. Those who refer
to the scriptures in this manner desire to read into scripture something which
is not there. Matthew 8:10-12 and Luke 13:28-30 depict the end results of the
Jewish rejection of their Messiah in the resurrection. The Kingdom was taken
from them and given to a nation producing its fruitage. (Matthew 21:43)
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob sit in this kingdom because it is this nation that
becomes the seed of Abraham. Of course, the language of the parable is
pictorial, not to be taken literally. The children of the kingdom, the Jews as
a whole, were cast out into outer darkness. There they were weeping and
gnashing their teeth. They were cast out when Jesus stated: "O Jerusalem,
Jerusalem you who killed the prophets, and stoned them that were sent to you
how often I would have gathered your children together, as hen gathers her
offspring under her wings, but you would not allow it! Look, your house is left
to you in desolation. Truly I say to that you will not see until the time
comes when you will say: Blessed is he who comes in the name of Yahweh!'" (Luke
13:34,35) In all this there is no reference to a living existence of Abraham
going to heaven when he died.
Likewise Hebrews 11:10,16 refers to the city that will come down from heaven in
the next age. (Revelation 21:1-4) Thus it will be in the time when Abraham will
be resurrected, and the time when God himself is spoken of as dwelling with
men. Hebrews 11:35 indicates that the resurrection, not an undieable soul, is
referred to. Abraham did not receive the promise, we are told, nor was he made
perfect before the believers in the Messiah. (Hebrews 11:39,40) Nothing is
stated in the scriptures cited nor in the context to the effect that Abraham's
soul went to heaven when he died.
Okay, I admit it. I was a little younger when that photo in my avatar was taken.
That paasage does not teach that dead people in hell are actually alive but separated from God. It doesn't even say that God does not look at unsaved people/souls. In fact quite the reverse. To quote a more modern translation than the KJV, because it seems you might not have correctly understood what is meant by "wherefore lookest thou" (or did you just overlook it?) - Habakkuk 1:13 (MKJV):
(13) You are of purer eyes than to behold evil, and can not look upon vexation. Why do You look upon those who deal deceitfully? Will you be silent when the wicked swallows one more righteous than he?
or TLV:
(13) With eyes too pure to see evil You cannot look at such trouble! Why do You look at the treacherous? Why do You remain silent when a wicked one swallows up those more righteous than him?
ESV:(13) You who are of purer eyes than to see evil and cannot look at wrong, why do you idly look at traitors and remain silent when the wicked swallows up the man more righteous than he?
God does not delight in looking at evil, but He doesn't ignore us either - He knows everything that is going on, and He knows our every thought. As Barnes Notes comment:
Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil - ... All sin is hateful in God’s sight, and in His Holy Wisdom He cannot endure to “look toward iniquity.” As man turns away from sickening sights, so God’s abhorrence of wrong is pictured by His not being able to “look toward it.” If He looked toward them, they must perish Psa_104:32. Light cannot co-exist with darkness, fire with water, heat with cold, deformity with beauty, foulness with sweetness, nor is sin compatible with the Presence of God, except as its Judge and punisher. Thou canst not look. There is an entire contradiction between God and unholiness. And yet,
Wherefore lookest thou upon - viewest, as in Thy full sight make the contrast stronger. God cannot endure “to look toward” (אל) iniquity, and yet He does not only this, but beholdeth it, contemplateth it, and still is silent, yea, as it would seem, with favor, bestowing upon them the goods of this life, honor, glory, children, riches, as the Psalmist saith Psa_73:12; “Behold these are the ungodly, who prosper in the world, they increase in riches?” Why lookest thou upon “them that deal treacherously, holdest Thy tongue,” puttest restraint , as it were, upon Thyself and Thine own attribute of Justice, “when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?” Psa_143:2 “in God’s sight no man living can be justified;” and, in one sense, Sodom and Gomorrah were less unrighteous than Jerusalem, and Mat_10:15; Mat_11:24; Mar_6:11; Luk_10:12 “it shall be more tolerable for them in the day of Judgment,” because they sinned against less light; yet the actual sins of the Chaldee were greater than those of Jerusalem, and Satan’s evil is greater than that of these who are his prey.
God does look upon the unsaved (which is all of us, until God saves us!), because He is patient with us:
2 Peter 3:9 (WEB):
(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
because God is love (1 John 4:8,16) and, 1 Corinthians 13:4-7 (WEB):
(4) Love is patient and is kind; love doesn’t envy. Love doesn’t brag, is not proud,
(5) doesn’t behave itself inappropriately, doesn’t seek its own way, is not provoked, takes no account of evil;
(6) doesn’t rejoice in unrighteousness, but rejoices with the truth;
(7) bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
Again you're not quoting any Srcipture to support your claims, so I will assume that you're referring to the parable about a rich man and a poor man (named Lazarus) in Luke 16. See my post on that parable in posts #267 - 269.
More Luke 16 assumptions/reading between the lines? Jesus said that he was "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40), i.e. in a grave/tomb. He taught that he would "be killed, and after three days rise again" (Mark 8:31). In between death and being raised from the dead, Jesus was dead! This is the Gospel that Paul taught - 1 Corinthians 15:3-4 (WEB):
(3) For I delivered to you first of all that which I also received: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
(4) that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
Again, read posts #267 - 269. "Abraham, Issac, Jacob…Samuel….etc." are not resurrected to life again until after the Church is resurected (first resurrection) - Hebrews 11:39-40 (WEB):
(39) These all, having had testimony given to them through their faith, didn’t receive the promise,
(40) God having provided some better thing concerning us, so that apart from us they should not be made perfect.
Christians have a better reward than any of those who died before Christ's sacrificial death, which they receive at the first resurrection. Everyone else will be resurrected later in the general, second, resurrection. Therefore, Abraham, etc., were not alive, in hell nor anywhere else, when Jesus was dead, and they will not receive their promised reward until some time after the first resurrection has happened.
Jesus could not have said anything to the dead, because they were dead and he was dead. The dead have no thoughts and cannot do anything. It would not be much of a punishment for sin if that wasn't the case!
Psalms 146:4 (WEB):
(4) His spirit departs, and he returns to the earth. In that very day, his thoughts perish.
Ecclesiastes 9:5-6,10 (WEB):(5) For the living know that they will die, but the dead don’t know anything, neither do they have any more a reward; for their memory is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, their hatred, and their envy has perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion forever in anything that is done under the sun.
(10) Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor plan, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in Sheol, where you are going.
Because the Bible teaches no such thing!
You can now move on.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Incorrect.
We were dead spiritually and were made alive spiritually in Christ (past tense) that happened in time when we trusted Christ but was decided for us before the earth was created as Paul wrote in the same letter. And our sitting in heavenly places is now! sorry that is just how it is written. God knows how to use the future tense if He meant it was a future thing. He did so many times in His Word.
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Why have you added the word 'spiritually'? I do not find the expression "dead/alive spiritually" in the bible. Our eternal future will consist of either eternal life or eternal death.
Romans 6:23 (WEB):
(23) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
While we are alive God reckons us as either dead (condemned to death because of our sins) or alive (saved from death by faith in Jesus' sacrifice). In both cases it is a reckoning. If we are reckoned dead then we will die in the future; if we are reckoned alive then God will give us eternal life in the future (after we are resurrected from death).
Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
Then define this verse:
Ephesians 2
King James Version
2 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;Quickened: syzōopoieō to make one alive
Dead: nekros deceased, dead, spiritually dead.
Same as in Col. 2:13
What was dead and now made alive when one comes to jesus????????????
Okay, I admit it. I was a little younger when that photo in my avatar was taken.
I too want to know why she added the word "spiritually."
Gaslighter!
Your opening statement….
YOU thought…
YOU wrote….
YOU applied to me…
THEN
YOU disagreed with what YOU thought and wrote.
I made NO SUCH CLAIM!
PEOPLE IN Hell…you must be joking.
You being A PERSON should BEGIN by Learning WHAT A PERSON IS!
@Ronald Nolette
He added his understanding beyond your understanding.
God IS SPIRIT…a RELATIONSHIP with God IS between:
Gods Spirit and mans spirit…
And:
Mans spirit and Gods Spirit…
A relationship between “two” spirits IS EXPRESSLY a “spiritual” relationship.
A unconverted natural man IS CARNAL…
Dead in his SIN.
A converted man IS SPIRITUALLY quickened.
Forgiven, saved OF and FREED FROM his sin.
His own natural spirit is BORN AGAIN of Gods Seed, Gods Spirit.
When we start adding to the Scripture based on what our understanding thinks is when we no longer have the Scriptures left, but rather our own understanding of it. The text is...
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ,...
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