Salvation

[This Vale Of Tears]

Hi everyone.

I imagine you've already talked about this but I didn't found the right topic so I created one because this is the most important matter of all and is the one that it most matters to me.

What do you believe in?
Is man saved by works or faith?

This is a classic example of the Protestant either/or contrasted with the Catholic both/and. In zero sum theology, the prevalence of one idea must necessitate the elimination of another idea, so faith or works, Mary or Jesus, the Bible or the Church for example. Catholic theology doesn't pit one against another, to put various theological concepts at odds with others. Aside from Martin Luther's feckless attempts to insert "faith alone" into his doctored Bible, the only time you actually see the words "faith alone" written in scripture is when James assures us that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.

The OP seeks division where the Bible seeks harmony. This is a fallacy.

 

[williemac]

This is a classic example of the Protestant either/or contrasted with the Catholic both/and. In zero sum theology, the prevalence of one idea must necessitate the elimination of another idea, so faith or works, Mary or Jesus, the Bible or the Church for example. Catholic theology doesn't pit one against another, to put various theological concepts at odds with others. Aside from Martin Luther's feckless attempts to insert "faith alone" into his doctored Bible, the only time you actually see the words "faith alone" written in scripture is when James assures us that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.

The OP seeks division where the Bible seeks harmony. This is a fallacy.

What I would like to think is that the op seeks clarification. I would not advise assuming one knows the motives of another. We ought to give one another the benefit of the doubt, lest we invite judgment upon ourselves as we judge others.

Paul met with opposition in his day. He also said that this would continue after he was gone. But concerning the elimination of an idea, Paul did exactly that when he said it was of grace through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9) . In so many words, this is "grace alone".

This is how the bible seeks harmony: It eliminates contradiction. Harmony is not found in double mindedness. When one accepts two opposing ideas as both valid, one cannot have clarity. A double minded man is unstable, as James said.

But I want to add some information to the discussion. We are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. We seem to always get into this debate about faith as though it is the qualification for salvation. It is not the qualification. It is humility that qualifies us for receiving grace. Faith is the method by which this grace is received. Faith is a method. It cannot operate apart from humility. And it cannot be in the same camp as works. Works do not merit grace. Humility merits grace. Works can give a man cause for boasting. Jesus gave an example of this in Luke 18:10-14.


10 “Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, ‘God, I thank You that I am not like other men—extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. 12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.’ 13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, ‘God, be merciful to me a sinner!’ 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.”

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

What I would like to think is that the op seeks clarification. I would not advise assuming one knows the motives of another. We ought to give one another the benefit of the doubt, lest we invite judgment upon ourselves as we judge others.

Paul met with opposition in his day. He also said that this would continue after he was gone. But concerning the elimination of an idea, Paul did exactly that when he said it was of grace through faith, and not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9) . In so many words, this is "grace alone".

This is how the bible seeks harmony: It eliminates contradiction. Harmony is not found in double mindedness. When one accepts two opposing ideas as both valid, one cannot have clarity. A double minded man is unstable, as James said.

But I want to add some information to the discussion. We are told that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. We seem to always get into this debate about faith as though it is the qualification for salvation. It is not the qualification. It is humility that qualifies us for receiving grace. Faith is the method by which this grace is received. Faith is a method. It cannot operate apart from humility. And it cannot be in the same camp as works. Works do not merit grace. Humility merits grace. Works can give a man cause for boasting.

The OP doesn't seek clarification, it's advancing a narrative by phrasing the question as "faith or works" leaving no other option. This isn't an honest inquiry, it's an agenda.

Furthermore, we have three concepts, grace, faith, and works, but they aren't equal, for both faith and works fall under grace which is why a Catholic will say, "Grace alone, but not faith alone". Good works are a necessary ingredient for salvation, a fact that James asserts beyond controversy. But we can't "work our way to heaven" because, as Jesus says, we are unprofitable servants. We do what we are supposed to do, but we still come up short. This is where grace comes in, making up what we lack. So again, faith and works are equal, but subordinated to grace.

Moreover, what many reformationists seem to miss in the epistles is that there are two types of works referred to. Paul focused on the works of the law which represent a regression into the Old Covenant and the inadequacies of the law when it comes to saving people. James refers to works, in context of his epistle, as corporal acts of kindness, compassion, and mercy, not the Levitical law. So when Paul says we are saved by faith apart from works, he's talking about an altogether different type of works than James.

To understand this, all you have to do is look at the context in which both Paul and James are speaking. So when James says, " If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James is talking about corporal works of mercy. And when Paul says, "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace," he is talking about works in context of keeping the law. Two very different types of works. The works Paul talks about is made unnecessary because Christ fulfilled the law and delegated it to antiquity. But the works James talks about is the same works Jesus refers to in Matthew 25 by which those who are saved are the ones who saw Jesus hungry, thirsty, naked, imprisoned, and destitute and brought resolution to his plight. These works are a necessary part of being saved as seen in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats in which those bereft of charitable works are lost to perdition.

 

[Dodo_David]

This is a classic example of the Protestant either/or contrasted with the Catholic both/and. In zero sum theology, the prevalence of one idea must necessitate the elimination of another idea, so faith or works, Mary or Jesus, the Bible or the Church for example. Catholic theology doesn't pit one against another, to put various theological concepts at odds with others. Aside from Martin Luther's feckless attempts to insert "faith alone" into his doctored Bible, the only time you actually see the words "faith alone" written in scripture is when James assures us that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.

The OP seeks division where the Bible seeks harmony. This is a fallacy.

Vale, it looks to me that you are promoting division with your above-posted rant against Protestants. The OP in this thread says nothing about Protestants or about Martin Luther.

What does the Apostle Paul say in Ephesians 2:8-9?

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast."

In James 2:14-26, the Apostle James isn't contradicting Paul. Instead, he is elaborating about the product of real faith.

I will repeat here what I say in the thread "James vs Paul".

When a person is born-again, the Holy Spirit works inside the person, prompting the person to participate in godly works.

In 1 Samuel 16:7, God tells the prophet Samuel, "The Lord does not look at the things people look at. People look at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart."

God alone can look inside the human heart to see if a person's alleged faith is real.
All that we mere mortals can do is to look for outward signs that a person's alleged faith is real.
In his writings, James is telling us that such outward signs will exist if a person's alleged faith is real.

Real faith in Messiah Jesus (living faith, as James calls it) will be accompanied by godly works that God has given the person with real faith to do.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Vale, it looks to me that you are promoting division with your above-posted rant against Protestants. The OP in this thread says nothing about Protestants or about Martin Luther.

Incorrect. It was the OP that fostered division with its provocative "faith or works" posturing, as if Catholics are works and Protestants are faith and one by necessity eliminates the other. The OP was designed to germinate specifically the conflict that now ensues.

 

[williemac]

The OP doesn't seek clarification, it's advancing a narrative by phrasing the question as "faith or works" leaving no other option. This isn't an honest inquiry, it's an agenda.

Furthermore, we have three concepts, grace, faith, and works, but they aren't equal, for both faith and works fall under grace which is why a Catholic will say, "Grace alone, but not faith alone". Good works are a necessary ingredient for salvation, a fact that James asserts beyond controversy. But we can't "work our way to heaven" because, as Jesus says, we are unprofitable servants. We do what we are supposed to do, but we still come up short. This is where grace comes in, making up what we lack. So again, faith and works are equal, but subordinated to grace.

Moreover, what many reformationists seem to miss in the epistles is that there are two types of works referred to. Paul focused on the works of the law which represent a regression into the Old Covenant and the inadequacies of the law when it comes to saving people. James refers to works, in context of his epistle, as corporal acts of kindness, compassion, and mercy, not the Levitical law. So when Paul says we are saved by faith apart from works, he's talking about an altogether different type of works than James.

To understand this, all you have to do is look at the context in which both Paul and James are speaking. So when James says, " If a brother or sister is naked and destitute of daily food, and one of you says to them, 'Depart in peace, be warmed and filled,' but you do not give them the things which are needed for the body, what does it profit? Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead." James is talking about corporal works of mercy. And when Paul says, "For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace," he is talking about works in context of keeping the law. Two very different types of works. The works Paul talks about is made unnecessary because Christ fulfilled the law and delegated it to antiquity. But the works James talks about is the same works Jesus refers to in Matthew 25 by which those who are saved are the ones who saw Jesus hungry, thirsty, naked, imprisoned, and destitute and brought resolution to his plight. These works are a necessary part of being saved as seen in the Parable of the Sheep and Goats in which those bereft of charitable works are lost to perdition.

Thank you for your reply. I am on my way to work and cannot spend time. But I suggest that you will know more about my thoughts on this matter from my replies on the subject of Paul vs. James. As well, concerning agenda...how many people on this site do you suppose have no agenda? Of course there's an agenda. If one wants to spark a discussion or debate, I am sure there is a motive behind it. Why put a negative slant on it as though this is some kind of anomaly? You have an agenda don't you? If you don't, what are you doing here?

 

[IBeMe]

Sargento: Is man saved by works or faith?

Obviously, by faith.

(righteousness by works of the law)
"And thou shalt bring the meat offering that is made of these things unto the LORD: and when it is presented unto the priest, he shall bring it unto the altar."

As you can see, it's quite impossible to be saved by works of the law. We don't have a temple and we don't have priest that can prove their linage.

Righteousness by works of the law is impossible today.

However, some wish to take Paul's Scriptures, revering to "works of the law", and nullify other Scripture containing the word, "works."

This is utter silliness!

"Every man's work shall be made manifest ..."

"... are not ye my work in the Lord?"

"... always abounding in the work of the Lord ..."

"... abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."

"... for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

"... may abound to every good work ..."

"But let every man prove his own work..."


And to make it perfectly clear, Paul says:


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So, we're saved by faith, but called "unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

 

[Sargento]

Aspen...

Sargento

so, what you really mean is....all Christians think like you? How come you seem to disagree with everyone here? Do you really think you are the only Christian who posts here?

What are you trying to do Aspen?

...smart...

But yes, all Christians think alike (same nature, the same love and hate) because they have the mind of Christ... now if I believe I'm a christian I also have the truth, and if I believe I have the truth and you do not agree with it that tell's me that you do not have it and therefor are not Christian ... one thing it would be not knowing yet or not fully understand the gospel, but rejecting it after hearing, that's different, that'a incredulity ....

And anyone who believes that the truth is one and only should think like this... but if you do not believe like this and accept all as christian why are you against me then??
Why are you trying to get me expelled from here?

TEARS...

This is a classic example of the Protestant either/or contrasted with the Catholic both/and. In zero sum theology, the prevalence of one idea must necessitate the elimination of another idea, so faith or works, Mary or Jesus, the Bible or the Church for example. Catholic theology doesn't pit one against another, to put various theological concepts at odds with others. Aside from Martin Luther's feckless attempts to insert "faith alone" into his doctored Bible, the only time you actually see the words "faith alone" written in scripture is when James assures us that a man is saved by works and NOT faith alone.

The OP seeks division where the Bible seeks harmony. This is a fallacy.

Yes.. James says that, no doubt here... he's the only one... but he's wrong.

However in all the letters of the apostles they say that eternal life is free, and that grace and works do not combine... and they all teach that we are justified by faith WITHOUT WORKS.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romanos 4:5

All except James (which was not one of the apostles, but the brother of Jesus by flesh son of the "VIRGIN" Mary) teach this...
James, who wrote a letter for the Jews only (making distinction) teaches otherwise... but he's wrong... he preaches another gospel.

IBEME...

Sargento: Is man saved by works or faith?

Obviously, by faith.

(righteousness by works of the law)
"And thou shalt bring the meat offering that is made of these things unto the LORD: and when it is presented unto the priest, he shall bring it unto the altar."

As you can see, it's quite impossible to be saved by works of the law. We don't have a temple and we don't have priest that can prove their linage.

Righteousness by works of the law is impossible today.

However, some wish to take Paul's Scriptures, revering to "works of the law", and nullify other Scripture containing the word, "works."

This is utter silliness!

"Every man's work shall be made manifest ..."
Because they're hidden

"... are not ye my work in the Lord?"

"... always abounding in the work of the Lord ..."

"... abounding in the work of the Lord, forasmuch as ye know that your labour is not in vain in the Lord."

"... for he worketh the work of the Lord, as I also do."

"... may abound to every good work ..."

"But let every man prove his own work..."


And to make it perfectly clear, Paul says:


"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:"

"Not of works, lest any man should boast."

"For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

So, we're saved by faith, but called "unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

It's GOD's works, not ours... it's what he does in us, our growth.

And we walk in those good works even when we sin... this are not carnal works, they are spiritual and made by GOD in us.

Has for a good conduct, yes we should try to have it, but that has nothing to do with faith nor is its reflection, its our duty only towards man not GOD.

But these works HE ordained for us is our course and HE's teaching unto us... it's our predestination and santification.

 

[aspen]

i am not trying to get you banned from here Sargento - you are respectful of others and seem to be well meaning. The reason I pointed out the fact that your understand of doctrine appears to be out of step with everyone you are engaged in conversation with is to show you that your opinion is not the standard for all of us to follow. Everyone you are talking with are Christian and so are you so why are you out of step? The answer suggests that you could be wrong about a few things - not that everyone else must not really be Christian.

 

[IBeMe]

Sargento: It's GOD's works, not ours... it's what he does in us, our growth.


"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

The price of Salvation is the Blood of Jesus.

What, we're going to wait in a retirement home until we get called home to Glory?

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

But, Jesus finished his work.

"I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."

Who's turn is it now?

"As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

" Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

If we want to "glorify" God, we must do "good works."

What is the work?

"Feed my lambs." "Feed my sheep."
" Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."
"And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down"

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

.

 

[Dodo_David]

Yes.. James says that, no doubt here... he's the only one... but he's wrong.

However in all the letters of the apostles they say that eternal life is free, and that grace and works do not combine... and they all teach that we are justified by faith WITHOUT WORKS.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romanos 4:5

All except James (which was not one of the apostles, but the brother of Jesus by flesh son of the "VIRGIN" Mary) teach this...
James, who wrote a letter for the Jews only (making distinction) teaches otherwise... but he's wrong... he preaches another gospel.

Wow. It sure does take gall to openly declare that the Apostle James was wrong.

 

[aspen]

practice you sanctification!

Wow. It sure does take gall to openly declare that the Apostle James was wrong.

Apparently, James doesn't agree with Sargento either - and he has already declared that anyone who doesn't agree with Carlos and himself, doesn't agree with the truth.

 

[williemac]

Aspen...

What are you trying to do Aspen?

...smart...

But yes, all Christians think alike (same nature, the same love and hate) because they have the mind of Christ... now if I believe I'm a christian I also have the truth, and if I believe I have the truth and you do not agree with it that tell's me that you do not have it and therefor are not Christian ... one thing it would be not knowing yet or not fully understand the gospel, but rejecting it after hearing, that's different, that'a incredulity ....

And anyone who believes that the truth is one and only should think like this... but if you do not believe like this and accept all as christian why are you against me then??
Why are you trying to get me expelled from here?

TEARS...


Yes.. James says that, no doubt here... he's the only one... but he's wrong.

However in all the letters of the apostles they say that eternal life is free, and that grace and works do not combine... and they all teach that we are justified by faith WITHOUT WORKS.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Romanos 4:5

All except James (which was not one of the apostles, but the brother of Jesus by flesh son of the "VIRGIN" Mary) teach this...
James, who wrote a letter for the Jews only (making distinction) teaches otherwise... but he's wrong... he preaches another gospel.

IBEME...

It's GOD's works, not ours... it's what he does in us, our growth.

And we walk in those good works even when we sin... this are not carnal works, they are spiritual and made by GOD in us.

Has for a good conduct, yes we should try to have it, but that has nothing to do with faith nor is its reflection, its our duty only towards man not GOD.

But these works HE ordained for us is our course and HE's teaching unto us... it's our predestination and santification.

Greetings. Over all, these are good comments and conclusions in my opinion. However, I have to disagree with your grievance against James. You see, If he is preaching another gospel, then his letter should not be in the bible. And if that is the case, God was not in control of what went into the bible and what did not. And if that is the case, then we have no way of trusting anything that is in there.

This is precisely why I have exhorted you to consider the context. If we go back into history as written, we can see that although Abraham first stumbled around trying to help God with His promise by producing an illegitimate son, the promise was not affected. Abraham was not required to have faith in order for the promise of the son through Sarah to be fulfilled. There was no "if" involved. God simply announced His intentions and carried them out. However, Abraham having seen that God was able to fulfill His word, changed his mind and became a believer. But this came through a test of his faith. He was justified by faith. But this happened through a test. Therefore his works, as it were, came into the equation. His work was to go ahead and go along with sacrificing his son.

James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.

The conclusion is that though one might claim to have faith, it is through observing their actions and words that we can see the reality of yay or nay. But as I said earlier, James did not tell them to show God their faith by their works..he said show "me".

 

[IBeMe]

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

 

[Dodo_David]

Here is Matthew 16:24-27:

24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul? Or what can anyone give in exchange for their soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come in his Father’s glory with his angels, and then he will reward each person according to what they have done."

So, those who place their faith in Messiah Jesus will be rewarded one way. Those who don't will be rewarded another way.

 

[IBeMe]

The everlasting Son of God was manifested in the flesh of fallen mankind and died and went to hell in our place to free us from the bondage of sin and give us the power to overcome all temptation.

Jesus gave his life so that that souls might be saved.

Jesus's disciples laid down their lives for the furtherance of the gospel, so that souls might be saved; some to the death.

If we think we've got something better to do, there's dreadful day coming.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

.

 

[jiggyfly]

Hi everyone.

I imagine you've already talked about this but I didn't found the right topic so I created one because this is the most important matter of all and is the one that it most matters to me.

What do you believe in?
Is man saved by works or faith?

More accurately whom do you believe in? Christ's work at the cross brought salvation to everyone.

 

[Sargento]

Aspen...

i am not trying to get you banned from here Sargento - you are respectful of others and seem to be well meaning. The reason I pointed out the fact that your understand of doctrine appears to be out of step with everyone you are engaged in conversation with is to show you that your opinion is not the standard for all of us to follow. Everyone you are talking with are Christian and so are you so why are you out of step? The answer suggests that you could be wrong about a few things - not that everyone else must not really be Christian.

How do you recognize a Christian?


IBEME...

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

The price of Salvation is the Blood of Jesus.

What, we're going to wait in a retirement home until we get called home to Glory?

"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."

"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."

But, Jesus finished his work.

"I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."

Who's turn is it now?

"As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."

" Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."

If we want to "glorify" God, we must do "good works."

What is the work?

"Feed my lambs." "Feed my sheep."
" Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."
"And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down"

"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

You have to start to read what is being taught in every one of your quotes and not just parts of phrases..

Because what you just described is salvation at a cost, and that cost is works... sure you say "the price is the blood of Jesus", but next you try to show me that the blood of Jesus only works if I work!!!! So, the price to salvation is the blood of Jesus, and the price of the blood of Jesus is works???

Don't you believe that eternal life is free?

Ibeme, read what is being taught and not parts of phrases, read especially the teachings of Paul because the words of Jesus are mainly parables.

What we invest on flesh comes back has corruption, this applies to all man, just and wicked, but who invests on the spirit will reap eternal life, and that only the just can do by believing which is involuntary, a gift from GOD ... but when a just somehow because of lack of knowledge sows on his flesh he will reap corruption out of it, which is GOD teaching him to never trust in flesh.

What? You think who sows more in eternal life has more eternal life, and who sows less will have less eternal life?
By works all man do good and evil, just or wicked, so will every man reap corruption and eternal life? By it's actions no man can be called just or wicked because both do good and evil... so, what will these reap??? Corruption and eternal life at the same time??
Think before you quote Ibeme.



Has for the words of Jesus they are parables which I'll talk about soon...
But if you really believe in grace you should never have used this verses to show that salvation will depend on works ... what kind of faith in grace is that?

However, here is hint:


Work not for the food which perisheth (reap corruption), but for the food which abideth unto eternal life (reap eternal life), which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:27-29




Jiggyfly...

More accurately whom do you believe in? Christ's work at the cross brought salvation to everyone.

If that was true than we would all be saved...

Is this what you believe?

HE brought salvation to who believe in HIM, not the others.... HE made distinction.


Williemac...

Greetings. Over all, these are good comments and conclusions in my opinion. However, I have to disagree with your grievance against James. You see, If he is preaching another gospel, then his letter should not be in the bible. And if that is the case, God was not in control of what went into the bible and what did not. And if that is the case, then we have no way of trusting anything that is in there.

This is precisely why I have exhorted you to consider the context. If we go back into history as written, we can see that although Abraham first stumbled around trying to help God with His promise by producing an illegitimate son, the promise was not affected. Abraham was not required to have faith in order for the promise of the son through Sarah to be fulfilled. There was no "if" involved. God simply announced His intentions and carried them out. However, Abraham having seen that God was able to fulfill His word, changed his mind and became a believer. But this came through a test of his faith. He was justified by faith. But this happened through a test. Therefore his works, as it were, came into the equation. His work was to go ahead and go along with sacrificing his son.

James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.

The conclusion is that though one might claim to have faith, it is through observing their actions and words that we can see the reality of yay or nay. But as I said earlier, James did not tell them to show God their faith by their works..he said show "me".

No.. GOD was and is always in control. This letter is here because HE wanted it to be here because it has a purpose... just like this:

And for this cause God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
2 Tessalonicenses 2:11

Yes, before Abraham did that "justifying good work" he disbelief... and if works were a proof of his faith, before the good work Abraham did a bad one... I haven't told that here yet, but it's good that you saw it.
Now, what you say next is not right... even if he did not passed that test like he failed that previous of waiting for GOD, he would still be justified because GOD is faithful.
He's works NEVER came into the equation regarding his justification like James claims... but this is in the James topic.

James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.

NO, this is YOU talking, not James... this is your own context not the one we read in James... do not create contexts that do not exist.
The only way to see what you're saying is precisely by looking at just one verse and ignoring the rest to give it your context, but if you do read the context that's written there James is defending justification by works in this letter all the time.

 

[Dan57]

Because what you just described is salvation at a cost, and that cost is works... sure you say "the price is the blood of Jesus", but next you try to show me that the blood of Jesus only works if I work!!!! So, the price to salvation is the blood of Jesus, and the price of the blood of Jesus is works???

I think salvation is a gift, and comes only through our belief and faith in Christ, but our reward is determined by our works.

And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. (Revelation 22:12)

For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. (2 Corinthians 5:10)

That said, hypocrites are also warned; "Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity." (Matthew 7:21-23) also (Matthew 25: 31-46).

So apparently, its our belief that saves us, but God is not mocked, insincere believers (hypocrites) aren't acceptable. "I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." (Revelation 3:15-16)

Works obviously determine a persons sincerity, if we truly love Christ, we will keep his commandments (John 14:15). Otherwise; "Going to church doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage makes you a car."

 

[aspen]

Christians resonate with others - they love deeply and walk alongside the people they meet in life. They find connections between their experiences with others and the relationships they read about in scripture. The Bible becomes their autobiography, rather than their manual for living life.