Aspen...
aspen2 said:
i am not trying to get you banned from here Sargento - you are respectful of others and seem to be well meaning. The reason I pointed out the fact that your understand of doctrine appears to be out of step with everyone you are engaged in conversation with is to show you that your opinion is not the standard for all of us to follow. Everyone you are talking with are Christian and so are you so why are you out of step? The answer suggests that you could be wrong about a few things - not that everyone else must not really be Christian.
How do you recognize a Christian?
IBEME...
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
The price of Salvation is the Blood of Jesus.
What, we're going to wait in a retirement home until we get called home to Glory?
"I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work."
"As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world."
But, Jesus finished his work.
"I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do."
Who's turn is it now?
"As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world."
" Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven."
If we want to "glorify" God, we must do "good works."
What is the work?
"Feed my lambs." "Feed my sheep."
" Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples."
"And if it bear fruit, well: and if not, then after that thou shalt cut it down"
"For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works."
"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
You have to start to read what is being taught in every one of your quotes and not just parts of phrases..
Because what you just described is salvation at a cost, and that cost is works... sure you say "the price is the blood of Jesus", but next you try to show me that the blood of Jesus only works if I work!!!! So, the price to salvation is the blood of Jesus, and the price of the blood of Jesus is works???
Don't you believe that eternal life is free?
Ibeme, read what is being taught and not parts of phrases, read especially the teachings of Paul because the words of Jesus are mainly parables.
What we invest on flesh comes back has corruption, this applies to all man, just and wicked, but who invests on the spirit will reap eternal life, and that only the just can do by believing which is involuntary, a gift from GOD ... but when a just somehow because of lack of knowledge sows on his flesh he will reap corruption out of it, which is GOD teaching him to never trust in flesh.
What? You think who sows more in eternal life has more eternal life, and who sows less will have less eternal life?
By works all man do good and evil, just or wicked, so will every man reap corruption and eternal life? By it's actions no man can be called just or wicked because both do good and evil... so, what will these reap??? Corruption and eternal life at the same time??
Think before you quote Ibeme.
Has for the words of Jesus they are parables which I'll talk about soon...
But if you really believe in grace you should never have used this verses to show that salvation will depend on works ... what kind of faith in grace is that?
However, here is hint:
Work not for the food which perisheth (reap corruption), but for the food which abideth unto eternal life (reap eternal life), which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed.
They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God?
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
John 6:27-29
Jiggyfly...
jiggyfly said:
More accurately whom do you believe in? Christ's work at the cross brought salvation to everyone.
If that was true than we would all be saved...
Is this what you believe?
HE brought salvation to who believe in HIM, not the others.... HE made distinction.
Williemac...
Greetings. Over all, these are good comments and conclusions in my opinion. However, I have to disagree with your grievance against James. You see, If he is preaching another gospel, then his letter should not be in the bible. And if that is the case, God was not in control of what went into the bible and what did not. And if that is the case, then we have no way of trusting anything that is in there.
This is precisely why I have exhorted you to consider the context. If we go back into history as written, we can see that although Abraham first stumbled around trying to help God with His promise by producing an illegitimate son, the promise was not affected. Abraham was not required to have faith in order for the promise of the son through Sarah to be fulfilled. There was no "if" involved. God simply announced His intentions and carried them out. However, Abraham having seen that God was able to fulfill His word, changed his mind and became a believer. But this came through a test of his faith. He was justified by faith. But this happened through a test. Therefore his works, as it were, came into the equation. His work was to go ahead and go along with sacrificing his son.
James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.
The conclusion is that though one might claim to have faith, it is through observing their actions and words that we can see the reality of yay or nay. But as I said earlier, James did not tell them to show God their faith by their works..he said show "me".
No.. GOD was and is always in control. This letter is here because HE wanted it to be here because it has a purpose... just like this:
And for this cause
God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie:
2 Tessalonicenses 2:11
Yes, before Abraham did that "justifying good work" he disbelief... and if works were a proof of his faith, before the good work Abraham did a bad one... I haven't told that here yet, but it's good that you saw it.
Now, what you say next is not right... even if he did not passed that test like he failed that previous of waiting for GOD, he would still be justified because GOD is faithful.
He's works NEVER came into the equation regarding his justification like James claims... but this is in the James topic.
James used this example in his exhortation to his readers concerning their fruit. He was presenting a concept. The concept is that if one has genuine faith, then there will be genuine fruit (works). If we just look at one verse, we fail to see the whole presentation.
James brought their works into the equation, not to say that they were required for justification to life, but that they were evidence of whether or not these people had faith. That is the context. The subject is faith. But it is also works. However, Paul did not use the word 'works" in the same context. He called it fruit.
NO, this is YOU talking, not James... this is your own context not the one we read in James... do not create contexts that do not exist.
The only way to see what you're saying is precisely by looking at just one verse and ignoring the rest to give it your context, but if you do read the context that's written there James is defending justification by works in this letter all the time.