Salvation

[jiggyfly]

There is no hypocricy and the Catholic Church's position on this has been consistent since long before the reformation. The Bible being all true doesn't mean it contains all truth, particularly when it comes to doctrine, faith, and ecclesiastical matters. And the Bible being all true doesn't give it authority, for the Bible never ascribes itself authority, but instead points repeatedly to the true source of authority, the Church.

Jesus said that the scriptures point to Him and He also said that His authority was given to Him by His Father not the church.

 

[Dan57]

Uh, it appears to me that the topic of this thread has changed from salvation to heavenly rewards.

Here is Matthew 16:24-27:


So, those who place their faith in Messiah Jesus will be rewarded one way. Those who don't will be rewarded another way.

Well then knock it off and stay on topic

Actually when you think about it, isn't eternal life (salvation) one aspect of the reward promised to all who believe and repent? I don't think anyone has strayed too far off topic since heaven is a reward for believing.

 

[Sargento]

In Christ...

Ephesians 2:8-9

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Is accepting, believing, and having faith in Jesus are works that we perform? Yes!!!

The word 'believe' is a verb of the noun 'faith.' Many Christians do not understand the word faith is a work. We read in 1Thessalonians 1:3:

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience
of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

The very essence of faith is the Lord Jesus Christ. He is the Faithful One of Israel. Thus, we can paraphrase Ephesians 2:8 this way: “For by grace are you saved through Jesus (faith).” Or, “Daughter, be of good comfort; thy Christ (faith) hath made thee whole” Matthew 9:22.

By the two illustrations above, do we really have faith? In truth, God has to give us faith.

The call to believe in Jesus is to all the world, but many are called and few are chosen.

The gospel of works which is prevalent in many churches today is a lucrative gospel, in that, a person can “feel good” that somehow he can make some kind of contribution to his salvation, The problem is that he is spiritually dead, that there are none righteous no not one, and there are none that seeks after God. If this is God's assessment of the human race, how can any declare all he has to do to become saved is to believe and have faith in Jesus? This is impossible!!! The devils believe and they tremble.

The gospel of works is contrary to Ephesians 2:9

Then there are those who claim Rom. 10:9-10 but this too is a works gospel. The problem is the heart above all is deceitful and wicked, who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9

The only work that is righteous is the one demonstrated by Jesus on the cross. He alone did all the work to save us.

Question? How did the Old Testament believers become saved if it is imperative to confess, believe in, and have faith in Jesus and He was not born yet?

I liked your post, and our faith is many times called our works, not always tough, depending what its being talked about... but when it is about salvation we know the righteous lives by it's faith not works of flesh... nor those works help or sustain or show faith which is in the reborn spirit and is sustained by its life which is Christ.

One correction tough about Jeremiah 17:9, that is the old man's heart not the new because our heart is now the same has Jesus (the new creature), this is the covenant:

For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do {them}.
Ezequiel 36:24-27
That heart in Jeremiah no longer exists in the reborn.


The hold testament believers were saved because they've given a testimonial of faith... many times not knowing it, but faith made them testify that they were GOD's... sometimes just by doing something that they don't even know why they were doing it ... they just believed that that would please GOD without knowing why, like Abel.

Jiggyfly...

I believe in the scriptures.

This is why we work hard and continue to struggle, for our hope is in the living God, who is the Savior of all people and particularly of all believers.
1 Tim 4:10 (NLT)

19 For God in all his fullness was pleased to live in Christ,20 and through him God reconciled everything to himself. He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.
Col 1:19-20 (NLT)

11 For the Scriptures say,
“‘As surely as I live,’ says the Lord, ‘every knee will bend to me, and every tongue will confess and give praise to God.
Romans 14:11 (NLT)

18 Yes, Adam’s one sin brings condemnation for everyone, but Christ’s one act of righteousness brings a right relationship with God and new life for everyone.
Romans 5:18 (NLT)

Are your beliefs based on scripture?

You didn't answer me... DO YOU BELIEVE EVERYONE WILL BE SAVED?

Rocky...

Hi Sarg,

I started a topic awhile back. You can check it out here.
http://www.christian...hl=hermeneutics

Just saw this now... I'm not having much time... ok I'll take a look at it.

Williemac...

Speaking of WAAY out of context, your quote from 2Thess, is a dismal attempt at justifying how an error can be allowed in scripture. That passage refers to the time of the end, when the antichrist is on the earth. James was written a little before that time. In fact, Paul was also referring to those who had pleasure in unrighteousness. The lie, therefore, would not be to work for their salvation.

I know that, I didn't say this is about James! What I said is that the fact and reason of this letter is comparable to this because this is how GOD works.

The context of James reveals his intention. He in no way was telling them to be justified for life by their works. They had already been justified by faith, as far as James would have been concerned. He addressed them concerning faith in the beginning of the letter. He was telling them to justify their faith through good works (love).
He would have known all about Abraham, even more so than you or I. In fact, he gave two examples. The other was Rahab the harlot. Since her example was thrown into the arena, it would follow that she too was justified by her works. In both cases, the point was that their works were proof that they believed God. James, in revealing this, would not have used these examples to tell his readers that they needed works to justify them for salvation to life. He was talking about offering proof of faith. You can tell that simply through his examples.

That which you refer to as "my" context, is merely my understanding of the intention of the letter.

You guys have to show me someday that phantom context... because all you do is round it up in YOUR OWN words so that you create YOUR OWN context, but none of that is said in the letter...
A context is the message that is being preached and not your own interpretation or your own adaptation, you know what context means right?
And his context is that faith does not save, and to prove it he claims Abraham was saved by works which you close your eyes not to see and create a context that is not there so you can turn "justified by works" into "justified by faith" so you can keep this letter....

And yes, he is wrong about Rahab too...




Dan...

I simply believe that we are accepted into eternal life via our belief and faith in Christ, we are justified through His sacrifice. But I also believe that we reap what we sow, our good works lay up treasure in heaven (Matthew 6:20).

Our deeds on earth matter, Jesus said that those who love me will also keep my commandments (John 14:21). Paul said that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10).

You seem to be under the impression that good works don't matter, and Christians can ignore the example Christ set because we are all equally rewarded by belief alone? Your implying that the difference between the hypocrite and the faithful in the hereafter makes no difference, but I don't think Jesus taught that at all (Matthew 5:20).

If works don't matter, why did Christ inspire us to develop good works and do good deeds (Matthew 25:35-46)? In the scenario you paint, it doesn't matter whether a person feeds the orphans and widows or goes out and robs banks every night, every believer will be equally rewarded? Doesn't what we do determine who we are? (Matthew 7:16)

How can you believe that you're saved by grace and than use "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" for works?
Do we inherit the Kingdom of GOD by works after all????

Are your works your righteous??
What makes one righteous or just?


Christians can ignore the example of Christ???
Tel me Dan, what was the example of Christ? Show me HIS example, not what HE told us to do, HIS example in works...

The difference between the hypocrite and the faithful is that one believes and another doesn't... one is reborn and another is not... one has Christ and the other does not.


Yes, every believer will be equally rewarded...

For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man {that is} an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard. {penny: the Roman penny is the eighth part of an ounce, which after five shillings the ounce is seven pence halfpenny; about fourteen cents}
And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, {that} shall ye receive.
So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them {their} hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
And when they came that {were hired} about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
And when they had received {it}, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
Saying, These last have wrought {but} one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day. {have wrought...: or, have continued one hour only}
But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
Take {that} thine {is}, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
Matt 20:1-15

Works matter for our brothers, not GOD...

{This is} a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.
Tito 3:8

our works are towards our brothers, not for our reward... and if there's any reward is gaining a brother.
HE did not told us to love our brother minding rewards!!! That's not the reason, but HE told us that because we are brother and we should help each other... for love, not rewards... doing it for reward claiming it's because of faith or love, now THAT is hypocrisy.


No, what you do does not determine what you are... have you never seen a evil man doing good actions??

 

[IBeMe]

Sargento: Only of sins that are past.????

Rom:3:25 "... to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past ..."

In the law, the whole Bible, there's no such thing as a sacrifice for future sins; doesn't even make sense.

When we, by faith, accept Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins, all our sins are forgiven. And we, having a clean heart, can have fellowship with God: "in him is no darkness at all."

But Jesus died once.

We have God's mercy overshadowing our ignorance as we learn and grow in the Word, as long as we're willing participants.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

As we grow in the Word, the Word and the Spirit will reveal to us things that we need to change; "every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

We must make the corrections.

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If we turn aside; stop heeding the admonishments:

"For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them."

If we sin through ignorance, as we grow in the Word, "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

But we see that repentance after salvation comes with conditions:

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

"Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

How can we expect mercy without showing sincerity by our actions?

"For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

But if we "sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

God ripped the souls right out of Ananias and Sapphira's bodies.

Paul, "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

As long as the heart is still pumping, I'd never stop trying.

If we sin wilfully, there will be punishment; we must accept the punishment.

"If they shall confess their iniquity ... if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity ... Then will I remember my covenant ..."

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."


.

 

[williemac]

Sargento: Only of sins that are past.????

Rom:3:25 "... to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past ..."

In the law, the whole Bible, there's no such thing as a sacrifice for future sins; doesn't even make sense.

When we, by faith, accept Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins, all our sins are forgiven. And we, having a clean heart, can have fellowship with God: "in him is no darkness at all."

But Jesus died once.

We have God's mercy overshadowing our ignorance as we learn and grow in the Word, as long as we're willing participants.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

As we grow in the Word, the Word and the Spirit will reveal to us things that we need to change; "every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

We must make the corrections.

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If we turn aside; stop heeding the admonishments:

"For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them."

If we sin through ignorance, as we grow in the Word, "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

But we see that repentance after salvation comes with conditions:

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

"Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

How can we expect mercy without showing sincerity by our actions?

"For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

But if we "sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

God ripped the souls right out of Ananias and Sapphira's bodies.

Paul, "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

As long as the heart is still pumping, I'd never stop trying.

If we sin wilfully, there will be punishment; we must accept the punishment.

"If they shall confess their iniquity ... if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity ... Then will I remember my covenant ..."

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."


.

Excuse me, but one of the grand revelations presented in the letter to the Hebrews was that the sacrifice of Jesus was/is superior to the old sacrifices..ie, the blood of bulls and goats. What you are describing here is a covenant that is inferior to or no better than the old one, and a new sacrifice that is also inferior to or no netter than the old ones. I would rather trust the revelation from the author of Hebrews, who declared that the blood of bulls and goats could never take a way sins. So, whatever sacrifice you are describing also has not managed to take away sins. Really?

The reason there is no longer an offering is that there is remission (Heb.10:18). No further offering needed. The latter part of Heb.10 describes sinning outside or apart from the covering of the sacrifice of Jesus. In vs.39, it says we are not of those who fall back to perdition but of those who believe to the saving of the soul. This lines up with John 5:24, 6:47, and Rom.10:9,10. Willful sin is the willful rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus through unbelief. This is what you have done. You have rejected the power of His sacrifice by describing a sacrifice that is no better than the blood of bulls and goats; one that has no power to forgive or remove guilt. But John covered this subject in 1John 2:1 when he declared that if a believer sins (though he shouldn't), he has an advocate with the Father...Jesus. The sacrifice is perpetually applied to the believer, my friend.

Concerning Rom.3:25, as I have been discussing with Sargento about context, I would also urge you to consider that context. I will give you vs.25 and vs.26 in the NKJ...

" whom God has set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus"

This passage does not say anything about forgiveness of past sins. God passed them over through His forbearance, in anticipation of the future sacrifice. This is compared to the situation that I underlined...AT THIS PRESENT TIME.
This passage is about comparing the timelines both before and after the cross. Before the cross, God passed over sin. After it, He forgave sin. BIG difference. One cannot just quote a verse or sentence without looking at what the author is intending to use it for. With all due respect, if you didn't know that, its time you learned.

 

[Dan57]

You guys have to show me someday that phantom context...

In the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14–30), its obvious that works matter. In (1 Corinthians 3:11–15), Paul illustrates degrees of rewards based on works. Paul also wrote; "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).


And yes, he is wrong about Rahab too...

No, Rahab's faith was demonstrated by what she did. If she failed to act, her faith without any action (works) would have been fruitless. Its a bold statement to claim that the apostle James was wrong and you are right.

Dan...

How can you believe that you're saved by grace and than use "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" for works?
Do we inherit the Kingdom of GOD by works after all????

I didn't say that, the apostle Paul did, and he wrote it more than once. Our inheritance is through Christ, but our reward is based on our faithfulness to what we have chosen to believe. Belief is simply accepting Christ, faith is demonstrating it. Example; You may believe a flood is coming, but belief alone will result in your drowning. If you act on what you believe and build a boat to survive the flood, that's faith. Faith is belief in action, the evidence of things not seen.

Are your works your righteous??
What makes one righteous or just?

We are perfected in Christ, but our righteous acts are a living testimony of what we believe and the example we follow.


Tel me Dan, what was the example of Christ? Show me HIS example, not what HE told us to do, HIS example in works...

He constantly testified of his Father, he feed the hungry, healed the sick, forgave sin, loved others, and most of all, he demonstrated his love by sacrificing himself for the sins of others. Jesus demonstrated what he preached, his faith was backed by his works. I'm surprised you didn't know that?

The difference between the hypocrite and the faithful is that one believes and another doesn't... one is reborn and another is not... one has Christ and the other does not.

Not at all... A hypocrite also believes. The difference is that a hypocrite professes one thing and does another.

No, what you do does not determine what you are... have you never seen a evil man doing good actions??

So if I rape a women, I'm not a rapist? If I kill, I'm not a murderer? If I steal, I'm not a thief? If I lie, I'm not a liar? Yes, your actions define what you are, to suggest otherwise is denial. Of course people can repent and reverse course, but we can know a person by what they do (by their works).

 

[williemac]

You guys have to show me someday that phantom context...

In the parable of the talents (Matthew 25:14–30), its obvious that works matter. In (1 Corinthians 3:11–15), Paul illustrates degrees of rewards based on works. Paul also wrote; "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad" (2 Corinthians 5:10).


And yes, he is wrong about Rahab too...

No, Rahab's faith was demonstrated by what she did. If she failed to act, her faith without any action (works) would have been fruitless. Its a bold statement to claim that the apostle James was wrong and you are right.

Dan...

How can you believe that you're saved by grace and than use "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" for works?
Do we inherit the Kingdom of GOD by works after all????

I didn't say that, the apostle Paul did, and he wrote it more than once. Our inheritance is through Christ, but our reward is based on our faithfulness to what we have chosen to believe. Belief is simply accepting Christ, faith is demonstrating it. Example; You may believe a flood is coming, but belief alone will result in your drowning. If you act on what you believe and build a boat to survive the flood, that's faith. Faith is belief in action, the evidence of things not seen.

Are your works your righteous??
What makes one righteous or just?

We are perfected in Christ, but our righteous acts are a living testimony of what we believe and the example we follow.


Tel me Dan, what was the example of Christ? Show me HIS example, not what HE told us to do, HIS example in works...

He constantly testified of his Father, he feed the hungry, healed the sick, forgave sin, loved others, and most of all, he demonstrated his love by sacrificing himself for the sins of others. Jesus demonstrated what he preached, his faith was backed by his works. I'm surprised you didn't know that?

The difference between the hypocrite and the faithful is that one believes and another doesn't... one is reborn and another is not... one has Christ and the other does not.

Not at all... A hypocrite also believes. The difference is that a hypocrite professes one thing and does another.

No, what you do does not determine what you are... have you never seen a evil man doing good actions??

So if I rape a women, I'm not a rapist? If I kill, I'm not a murderer? If I steal, I'm not a thief? If I lie, I'm not a liar? Yes, your actions define what you are, to suggest otherwise is denial. Of course people can repent and reverse course, but we can know a person by what they do (by their works).

Human logic does not supersede or override what scripture declares to be true. Our actions do not define who we are. Christ's actions define who we are. If your actions define your identity, then why bother being born again? If my earthly actions define the family I belong to, then it was not a factor to have been born into that family. A dog is A dog because he was born from a dog, not because he barks like one. I can bark like a dog all day long but that does not make me a dog. A Christian who sins is still a son of the most high. This is why John assured his readers that we have an advocate with the Father (1John2:1). In fact, a believer who is misbehaving is subject to the same thing our earthly children are subject to...it is called chastening. Jesus made a promise that all....ALL whom He loves He rebukes and chastens.
My advice to any christian is not too get too confident or too cocky just because they think they are walking righteously. Especially that they do not make the mistake of comparing themselves with others. We are not yet perfected. We have this treasure in earthen vessels (2Cor.4:7). He who began this good work in us will complete it. This is His assurance. His assurance is also that he who believes in Him HAS (present tense) everlasting life (John5:24)....AND WILL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT BUT HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE!!!

Do I accept your logic or do I believe the words of Jesus? No brainer! The only way that a sinning believer can lose his everlasting life is if he comes into judgment. He may come into YOUR judgment, but not God's.

I will add to my above reply by commenting on the quote from 2Cor.5:10. We will all come before the judgment seat of Christ. But this is not the same judgment that Jesus said we are exempt from in John5:24. We are exempt from the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the 1000 yr. reign of Christ, when they who are cast into the second death, will be destroyed as Jesus said in Math.10:28. This is judgment unto condemnation and death. But we have passed from death into life (John5:24).
The judgment seat of Christ is where rewards will be granted or removed from the believer. I marvel that the other mention of this judgment was not used, where it reveals that even if a person's works are burned, not surviving the test of fire, he himself will be saved (1Cor.3:15).

For those who think that they are going to escape the chastening of the Lord, think again. It will happen to all of us, as Jesus promised. Just be thankful that you get a spanking rather than expulsion from the family, as some would suggest. It's funny that some will excuse themselves but accuse others. The above mention of murder, rape, theft, is a tad redundant. These are rare and highly unlikely in the case of true believers. Sin is sin. Is gluttony any less worthy of death? How many overweight believers are in north America..not to mention many behind the pulpits? Do any of us have absolutely no weakness or addiction to any food? Do we want to start pointing fingers? If we are going to be judged according to the law, we will all fall short. Failure on any one point will result in guilt of all. One tiny little failure and one is judged as a murderer, rapist, thief. Be thankful we are not under the law. This is the judgment that we are exempt from (John5:24) and will not come under. The promise in that passage is yes and amen.

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

Jesus said that the scriptures point to Him and He also said that His authority was given to Him by His Father not the church.

Yes. He said that right before transferring that authority to the Church, saying to go make disciples, giving them the power to bind and to loose, to baptize, and even to forgive sins. The transfer of authority could not be any more blunt.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes. He said that right before transferring that authority to the Church, saying to go make disciples, giving them the power to bind and to loose, to baptize, and even to forgive sins. The transfer of authority could not be any more blunt.

But you said the church was the true source of authority and I disagree, God is the true source of authority, not the ekklesia.

 

[Selene]

But you said the church was the true source of authority and I disagree, God is the true source of authority, not the ekklesia.

1 Timothy 3:15 so that if I am delayed, you will know how people must conduct themselves in the household of God. This is the church of the living God, which is the pillar and foundation of the truth.

The Bible has always pointed to the Church as the pillar and foundation of truth. The Church has authority because it was the Church who wrote the New Testament books under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The Bible did not write itself nor was it dropped down from the sky. It was also the Church who gathered the books together and canonized the Holy Bible under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It is God who gave authority to the Church, and it is God who guides the Church because He has sent the Holy Spirit to guide the Church into all truths (John 16:13).

The Bible is authoritative and the word of God........but it is NOT the ONLY authority. The Church is also an authority, and she got this authority from Christ who is her Head. Christ gave His authority to His Apostles (the Church leaders). According to the Apostle Paul:

2 Corinthians 10:8 I may seem to be boasting too much about the authority given to us by the Lord. But our authority builds you up; it doesn't tear you down. So I will not be ashamed of using my authority.

 

[Robertson]

It is a great topic for debate and as usual, many people pick one scripture and try to make it sound as if that one verse has the entirety of a doctrine built into it. There are three different camps, those for grace, those for works, and those for a mixture of both.

The salvation by grace people really don't believe in a salvation by grace doctrine fully. If we were saved by grace alone, then because of the goodness of God, his love and his mercy and kindness, etc., and not saved by any work whatsoever, then that literally means that every human ever born is saved. It wouldn't matter if someone was good or bad, or a murderer, or cursed god, or was the best person on earth. None of that would matter because if humans cannot do any works for salvation or dare to even try to earn their salvation, then the true doctrine of grace means all are saved no matter what. But you will find that most people who think they believe in salvation by grace really don't believe it! They really believe in a salvation by grace and works, because they will tell you that everyone is not automatically saved, that only someone who does the WORK of accepting Jesus and becoming a Christian, and perhaps even having a good heart, will be saved by the grace of God. They will tell you that if you have 2 people side by side, one of them has done the work of learning the word of God and accepted Jesus into their heart that this person will be saved and that the other person who has not done this work will not be saved. Thus, they really believe in salvation by grace and works. They just don't want to admit it because they are trying to believe that doing something for your salvation is bad, that God hates when someone works to keep the commandments and obtain salvation. But they do recognize that works have to happen, otherwise there would be no point to life if we didn't try to do good and learn and become like God. So because they realize that good works must be done, since we are judged by our works, they try to twist it around to say that if someone really has faith, then good works will follow.... like it's some sort of accident that this person did good works. Like this person could hold up his hands and exclaim, "Ooops, I don't mean to do these good works, they are just happening because of my faith. This is just an accident, don't blame me for this!" Anyway, these people aren't true believers in salvation by grace. They still require that a work or two be done.

The salvation by works camp knows that commandments must be followed and good works must be done. But they also believe in God, so they believe in grace because they want forgiveness of their sins. So these people are also believers in grace and works. The only exception may have been the ancient Hebrews who were thought that only the law of Moses saved them. They didn't love God, they merely kept his commandments blindly without faith. There is no salvation in that.

So, although both of these groups want to believe they are exclusive to concept of salvation, they really are depending upon faith and works. They don't realize this because they are too busy fighting over doctrine, but they really believe the same thing. They just twist it around and look at it from a different light. Sort of like a man in a helicopter over the sea looking down on a boat and a scuba diver underwater looking up at the same boat. The have two different views of the same thing and yet they try to tell each other they are seeing two different objects.

The third group who do believe in salvation by faith and works might just have it right. At least they admit to their true feelings of belief. They know they cant be saved unless they love god and they know that if they don't keep his commandments, then they have not shown their love. They also know at the last day when they are judged by their works, that if they are good they will inherit salvation, if not, off to hell!

 

[Dan57]

I can bark like a dog all day long but that does not make me a dog.

So your saying that I can sin all I want, but that does not make me a sinner? If true, I don't need to repent of anything, nor do I need to be forgiven for anything, because sinning does not make me a sinner.

Do I accept your logic or do I believe the words of Jesus? No brainer! The only way that a sinning believer can lose his everlasting life is if he comes into judgment. He may come into YOUR judgment, but not God's.

Its good to know that God cannot judge me, that pretty much allows me to do whatever I want. Since heaven is guaranteed to believers, I'm automatically accountable for nothing.

The above mention of murder, rape, theft, is a tad redundant. These are rare and highly unlikely in the case of true believers. Sin is sin. Is gluttony any less worthy of death?

So over eating is no different than killing 30 people? According to you, it doesn't matter if murder, theft, or rape are rare among true believers, because heaven is a done deal no matter what we do.

 

[IBeMe]

(williemac: ... grand revelations ... Hebrews ... sacrifice of Jesus ... superior ...)

This is the central theme of the whole Bible, and why Jesus is called the Lamb of God.

(williemac: What you are describing ... inferior ...)

I wouldn't call, Jesus dying and going to hell in our place and God raising us as born again spirits and giving us the Holy Spirit to guide us, "inferior."

(williemac: I would rather trust ... Hebrews ... blood of bulls and goats could never take a way sins.)

I guess you're trying to imply I said otherwise, which is fallacious.

(williemac: ... you are describing also has not managed to take away sins. Really?)

Very disingenuous statement, sir; "all our sins are forgiven."

(williemac: The latter part of Heb.10 describes sinning outside or apart from the covering of the sacrifice of Jesus.)

Clearly not true; "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified."

Specifically referring to born again Christians who wilfully sin.

If we wilfully sin, after we've been set free from sin by the blood of Jesus, we "hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

(williemac: Willful sin is the willful rejection of the sacrifice of Jesus through unbelief.)

All sin, except sins of ignorance, are wilful sins.

That statement doesn't even make sense.
You don't need a sacrifice unless you've sinned.

(williemac: You ... describing a sacrifice that ... has no power to forgive or remove guilt.

Why do you calumniate about what I've posted? "all our sins are forgiven"

(williemac: ... if a believer sins ... he has an advocate with the Father ... sacrifice is perpetually applied ...

In your confusion with the scriptures, you've proven "sacrifice is perpetually applied" to be a false doctrine.

Why do we need "an advocate with the Father" if the "sacrifice is perpetually applied"???

If we have "an advocate with the Father", that means we have to go to the Father and ask for forgiveness.

And as we see, "But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses", God may reject our petition.

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."

(williemac: This passage does not say anything about forgiveness of past sins.)

"to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past"

And we look and see that's exactly what it says.

(williemac: God passed them over through His forbearance, in anticipation of the future sacrifice.)

And we look and see that's not true, "remission of sins that are past."

"past" doesn't mean "future"

(williemac: This passage is about comparing the timelines both before and after the cross.)

No, Paul summed it up himself.

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."

Do we see this, "comparing the timelines both before and after the cross", in Paul's conclusion?

No, it's not there!

 

[This Vale Of Tears]

But you said the church was the true source of authority and I disagree, God is the true source of authority, not the ekklesia.

It appears you don't understand what is entailed in a commission. When an officer is commissioned, he is given authority by the commissioning officer. The commissioning officer doesn't lose that authority even when giving it to another. It was by the authority Christ gave the apostles that they baptized, forgave sins, appointed successors, and taught infallibly all that they were taught by the Christ. It was by that authority that the Church made official a canon of scripture in 393 A.D. and made official proclamation of what was considered scripture and what wasn't. Even the Bible is clearly a product of authority and the slave does not become greater than its master. The Bible did not create itself, it was created by the Church in whom all the authority of Christ rested. History cannot be denied.

 

[Dodo_David]

The Bible did not create itself, it was created by the Church in whom all the authority of Christ rested. History cannot be denied.

And the universal Church consists of all believers in the Messiah, whether they be messianic Jews, Protestants, Roman Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, Coptic, etc.

 

[jiggyfly]

It appears you don't understand what is entailed in a commission. When an officer is commissioned, he is given authority by the commissioning officer. The commissioning officer doesn't lose that authority even when giving it to another. It was by the authority Christ gave the apostles that they baptized, forgave sins, appointed successors, and taught infallibly all that they were taught by the Christ. It was by that authority that the Church made official a canon of scripture in 393 A.D. and made official proclamation of what was considered scripture and what wasn't. Even the Bible is clearly a product of authority and the slave does not become greater than its master. The Bible did not create itself, it was created by the Church in whom all the authority of Christ rested. History cannot be denied.

But the church is not the source.

 

[williemac]

I can bark like a dog all day long but that does not make me a dog.

So your saying that I can sin all I want, but that does not make me a sinner? If true, I don't need to repent of anything, nor do I need to be forgiven for anything, because sinning does not make me a sinner.

Do I accept your logic or do I believe the words of Jesus? No brainer! The only way that a sinning believer can lose his everlasting life is if he comes into judgment. He may come into YOUR judgment, but not God's.

Its good to know that God cannot judge me, that pretty much allows me to do whatever I want. Since heaven is guaranteed to believers, I'm automatically accountable for nothing.

The above mention of murder, rape, theft, is a tad redundant. These are rare and highly unlikely in the case of true believers. Sin is sin. Is gluttony any less worthy of death?

So over eating is no different than killing 30 people? According to you, it doesn't matter if murder, theft, or rape are rare among true believers, because heaven is a done deal no matter what we do.

Sure, you can do anything you want. But are you forgetting that as a new creation the desires of the heart have been and are being changed? Do you think for a moment that God has no power to transform the mind of a believer? Furthermore, if you could do anything you wanted without consequences, then Jesus lied when He promised that He had the right to chasten those whom are His. Consider the men in Thyatira, whom Jesus called His servants, whom He said were being beguiled to commit sexual immorality. He told them to repent of their deeds or He would cast them into great tribulation, (trouble). (Rev.2:22). This is what chastening looks like.

As well, why are you putting words in my mouth? I never said we did not need to be forgiven anything. What I said is that the forgiveness of sin is perpetual. Our salvation is based on forgiveness of sin. If it were based on our not sinning, then no forgiveness would be needed.
One of the main goals of the law was to prove beyond a shadow of doubt that mankind has no ability to change himself. Man cannot produce life or righteousness from his own nature or resources. Therefore we are helpless. This is where Jesus comes in. He solved the sin issue. By accepting His sacrifice on our behalf, our old man becomes associated with Him on the cross, and is considered positionally dead in Christ, crucified with Him. Sin does not go unpunished. Forgiveness is based on justice having been served.

We are not getting off the hook. Our old man of the flesh cannot inherit life. He is as good as dead, having died with Christ for sin. God's solution to the sin issue is to do away with our species and start over. Through faith in Him we are new creations. But this treasure is presently contained in an earthen vessel (2Cor.4:7). The body we presently have is tainted with sin and we await for the new body at the time of the resurrection. (1Cor.15:52).

What I am describing here is far superior and far more profound that the exercise of trying to behave in order to inherit life.
Our behavior is important, We are called to bear fruit. We are called to love one another. But these things are a result of the work that has already been accomplished in us.

No one is saying that sin is o.k. But consider this...if a person thought that sin was o.k., he would never have come to the Lord for forgiveness in the first place. The very foundation of our salvation is in the conviction of sin in the unbeliever (John16:8,9) . But 1John 1:9 states that if a person confesses his sin, God will forgive it and cleans him from all unrighteousness. This is not a repeated event. This is a one time event. It brings about the new birth.

This lines up with Rom.10:9,10, where Paul in no uncertain terms reveals how salvation is obtained. It is through the confession of the mouth and the belief in the heart. Whatever I have been declaring on this subject I can back up with scripture. On the other hand, you are painting an imaginary scenario in the attempt to justify working for salvation. I would think twice about that if I were you. I don't know you, but you are talking like one who does not understand the new covenant very well.

But I am glad you used the word "guarantee". It is found in two places concerning our future.Besides the new birth, we are promised the Holy Spirit, also received by faith. He is given as a deposit and a guarantee of our inheritance. (2Cor.5:5, Eph.1:14). Before you continue to mock the concept of a guarantee you might want to consider these passages.

 

[In Christ]

This Vale Of Tears

You said, “The Bible being all true doesn't mean it contains all truth.”

You believe this because you have no idea that God wrote the Bible. Each letter and each word in the original manuscripts were dictated by God to human authors. I challenge you to refute the following scripture texts:

Jeremiah 36:1-4

1 ¶ And it came to pass in the fourth year of Jehoiakim the son of Josiah king of Judah, that this word came unto Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2 Take thee a roll of a book, and write therein all the words that I have spoken unto thee against Israel, and against Judah, and against all the nations, from the day I spake unto thee, from the days of Josiah, even unto this day (“this day” can also refer to our day or any other day in the future).
3 It may be that the house of Judah will hear all the evil which I purpose to do unto them; that they may return every man from his evil way; that I may forgive their iniquity and their sin.
4 Then Jeremiah called Baruch the son of Neriah: and Baruch wrote from the mouth of Jeremiah all the words of the Lord; which he had spoken unto him (Jeremiah), upon a roll of a book (Bible)

Words in parenthesis are mine.

1 Corinthians 14:37

If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.

Exodus 17:14; 24:7

14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write this for a memorial in a book, and rehearse it in the ears of Joshua: for I will utterly put out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.

7 And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the LORD hath said will we do, and be obedient.

You may deny these scripture texts but it is a fact that God is the Author of the Bible, and if God is the Author then all things written in the Bible are all true and dependable for God does not lie.

You said, “particularly when it comes to doctrine, faith, and ecclesiastical matters.”

Therefore, you believe the Catholic Church is the only authority and is in charge in these matters, correct? How can man tainted with dirty rotten sins be in authority over the church of God? The Apostles who were the leaders of Christ's Church were chosen by Christ Himself.

The true Church was started by Jesus back there at the River Jordan when John the Baptist baptized the Lord Jesus to begin His ministry to build His Church up until the last of the Gentiles will have become saved. The true Church consists of all true believers whom Christ payed for their sins, and are all scattered throughout the world in different denominations. These are those Christ commanded to go into all the world and preach the Gospel. Those that are being added to the Church of Christ are also called the Bride of Christ.

You said, “And the Bible being all true doesn't give it authority, for the Bible never ascribes itself authority, but instead points to the true source of authority, the Church.”

The Bible, in and of itself, cannot speak for itself but the Author sure can. We read in Revelation 22:18-19:

18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Can any church or any other entity make the same claim as above? No!!! Therefore, God is the Author of the Bible! Can you hear the words of the prophecy of this book?

The Church of Christ is indeed the only authority but never, never, the Catholic Church, for the Catholic church has a co-redemtric in Mary, whereas the Church of Christ has the true redeemer, which by the way, is circumscribed by the Bible.

I have not written anything about James in this thread or in any other thread in this forum. You've got me confused with someone else. It's typical.

 

[Wormwood]

It appears you don't understand what is entailed in a commission. When an officer is commissioned, he is given authority by the commissioning officer. The commissioning officer doesn't lose that authority even when giving it to another. It was by the authority Christ gave the apostles that they baptized, forgave sins, appointed successors, and taught infallibly all that they were taught by the Christ. It was by that authority that the Church made official a canon of scripture in 393 A.D. and made official proclamation of what was considered scripture and what wasn't. Even the Bible is clearly a product of authority and the slave does not become greater than its master. The Bible did not create itself, it was created by the Church in whom all the authority of Christ rested. History cannot be denied.

Vale,

I agree with you to a point. However, the Church as we see it in the New Testament was built on the faith of the Apostles that they infallibly passed down. The offices of the church are established by the Holy Spirit and the NT model of churches looks amazingly autonomous rather than the establishment of any Holy See by which authority and governance was dictated. The council meeting in Jerusalem does not appear to be an ongoing establishment of hierarchy. The Church's authority has always been based on its allegiance to the Word of God. The Church was formed by the Word of God and not the other way around. If you think the canonization of the New Testament is proof that the Church has authority over God's Word then you are gravely mistaken. This is the same kind of folly that Israel got itself into by thinking that the presence of God's Temple made them superior to God's Word and judgment.

 

[In Christ]

Sargento

I agree that the heart in Jeremiah 17: 9 no longer exists in the born again child of God, and I'm very familiar with Ezekiel 36::24-27 that God is the prime mover and not man.

What I was saying is many denominations today teach anyone can be saved by just claiming Romans 10: 9-10, and I said they can't because the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things. Perhaps I should have added also Romans 3: 9-12 and John 6:44.

The Old Testament believers were saved same as the New Testament, in that, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8.

He bore all the sins of those He planned to save back there and the cross is just a demonstration of what He did then.

And this is the proof:

Hebrews 9: 16-17; 22

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:22 “and without shedding of blood is no remission” Hebrews 9:22

There is only one salvation plan.