Salvation

[Dan57]

Whatever I have been declaring on this subject I can back up with scripture. On the other hand, you are painting an imaginary scenario in the attempt to justify working for salvation. I would think twice about that if I were you. I don't know you, but you are talking like one who does not understand the new covenant very well.

I understand the N.T. pretty well and have cited numerous verses to substantiate why I think differently than you. I never stated that salvation comes by our own works. I fully understand that salvation only comes through our belief in Christ. My disagreement has been with the comment that works don't matter, because we aren't rewarded for our works. I simply interpret it differently, and have used ridiculous examples to emphasize my point. You think that all believers will receive the same reward, so Moses and Paul's rewards won't supersede an unrepentant bank robber's reward.

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:29-30). Jesus seems to be indicating that rewards can be magnified by what we do in the flesh.

 

[Sargento]

IBEME...

Sargento: Only of sins that are past.????

Rom:3:25 "... to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past ..."

In the law, the whole Bible, there's no such thing as a sacrifice for future sins; doesn't even make sense.

When we, by faith, accept Jesus as the sacrifice for our sins, all our sins are forgiven. And we, having a clean heart, can have fellowship with God: "in him is no darkness at all."

But Jesus died once.

We have God's mercy overshadowing our ignorance as we learn and grow in the Word, as long as we're willing participants.

"Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled."

As we grow in the Word, the Word and the Spirit will reveal to us things that we need to change; "every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit."

We must make the corrections.

"Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

"But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons."

If we turn aside; stop heeding the admonishments:

"For the turning away of the simple shall slay them, and the prosperity of fools shall destroy them."

If we sin through ignorance, as we grow in the Word, "we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous."

But we see that repentance after salvation comes with conditions:

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."

"Leave there thy gift before the altar, and go thy way; first be reconciled to thy brother, and then come and offer thy gift."

How can we expect mercy without showing sincerity by our actions?

"For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again."

But if we "sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries."

God ripped the souls right out of Ananias and Sapphira's bodies.

Paul, "deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

As long as the heart is still pumping, I'd never stop trying.

If we sin wilfully, there will be punishment; we must accept the punishment.

"If they shall confess their iniquity ... if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity ... Then will I remember my covenant ..."

"Take heed therefore that the light which is in thee be not darkness."


.

My friend, is only the past ones or not? First you defend that remission is only for the past sins then you say that the current ones are also forgiven??
Assume one position Ibeme.
Are we forgiven only from past sins or from future sins also?

Dan...

The context around that James's verse is another verse from another book????
Nooow all is explained... so these are your contexts... you take a part of ANOTHER text and invoke it has a context to another part of ANOTHER text... well, that way we can indeed create any context we want.


No, Rahab was also NOT justified by works... yes, James is wrong here too.
A faith without works is fruitless?? Poor of those who have a paralyzing illness... they are fruitless and therefor cannot be justified.
REALLY???

Dan...

How can you believe that you're saved by grace and than use "the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God" for works?
Do we inherit the Kingdom of GOD by works after all????

I didn't say that, the apostle Paul did, and he wrote it more than once. Our inheritance is through Christ, but our reward is based on our faithfulness to what we have chosen to believe. Belief is simply accepting Christ, faith is demonstrating it. Example; You may believe a flood is coming, but belief alone will result in your drowning. If you act on what you believe and build a boat to survive the flood, that's faith. Faith is belief in action, the evidence of things not seen.

Are your works your righteous??
What makes one righteous or just?

We are perfected in Christ, but our righteous acts are a living testimony of what we believe and the example we follow.


Tel me Dan, what was the example of Christ? Show me HIS example, not what HE told us to do, HIS example in works...

He constantly testified of his Father, he feed the hungry, healed the sick, forgave sin, loved others, and most of all, he demonstrated his love by sacrificing himself for the sins of others. Jesus demonstrated what he preached, his faith was backed by his works. I'm surprised you didn't know that?

The difference between the hypocrite and the faithful is that one believes and another doesn't... one is reborn and another is not... one has Christ and the other does not.

Not at all... A hypocrite also believes. The difference is that a hypocrite professes one thing and does another.

No, what you do does not determine what you are... have you never seen a evil man doing good actions??

So if I rape a women, I'm not a rapist? If I kill, I'm not a murderer? If I steal, I'm not a thief? If I lie, I'm not a liar? Yes, your actions define what you are, to suggest otherwise is denial. Of course people can repent and reverse course, but we can know a person by what they do (by their works).

So faith is works?
Impressive... how can anyone argue with that?

You did not answer (except one) my questions....

What Jesus did was miracles with a purpose (AND SELECTIVELY, not to all and not always, but all had a purpose and it was not charity) .... is that the works you say HE preached?
Miracles are not works!!
Don't you know what WORKS mean?
... but I guess this has no meaning to you because you thinks faith is works too.


Tears...

Yes. He said that right before transferring that authority to the Church, saying to go make disciples, giving them the power to bind and to loose, to baptize, and even to forgive sins. The transfer of authority could not be any more blunt.

And how do you know HIS church? How do you know truth from lie and who preaches which?

Robertson...

It is a great topic for debate and as usual, many people pick one scripture and try to make it sound as if that one verse has the entirety of a doctrine built into it. There are three different camps, those for grace, those for works, and those for a mixture of both.

The salvation by grace people really don't believe in a salvation by grace doctrine fully. If we were saved by grace alone, then because of the goodness of God, his love and his mercy and kindness, etc., and not saved by any work whatsoever, then that literally means that every human ever born is saved. It wouldn't matter if someone was good or bad, or a murderer, or cursed god, or was the best person on earth. None of that would matter because if humans cannot do any works for salvation or dare to even try to earn their salvation, then the true doctrine of grace means all are saved no matter what. But you will find that most people who think they believe in salvation by grace really don't believe it! They really believe in a salvation by grace and works, because they will tell you that everyone is not automatically saved, that only someone who does the WORK of accepting Jesus and becoming a Christian, and perhaps even having a good heart, will be saved by the grace of God. They will tell you that if you have 2 people side by side, one of them has done the work of learning the word of God and accepted Jesus into their heart that this person will be saved and that the other person who has not done this work will not be saved. Thus, they really believe in salvation by grace and works. They just don't want to admit it because they are trying to believe that doing something for your salvation is bad, that God hates when someone works to keep the commandments and obtain salvation. But they do recognize that works have to happen, otherwise there would be no point to life if we didn't try to do good and learn and become like God. So because they realize that good works must be done, since we are judged by our works, they try to twist it around to say that if someone really has faith, then good works will follow.... like it's some sort of accident that this person did good works. Like this person could hold up his hands and exclaim, "Ooops, I don't mean to do these good works, they are just happening because of my faith. This is just an accident, don't blame me for this!" Anyway, these people aren't true believers in salvation by grace. They still require that a work or two be done.

The salvation by works camp knows that commandments must be followed and good works must be done. But they also believe in God, so they believe in grace because they want forgiveness of their sins. So these people are also believers in grace and works. The only exception may have been the ancient Hebrews who were thought that only the law of Moses saved them. They didn't love God, they merely kept his commandments blindly without faith. There is no salvation in that.

So, although both of these groups want to believe they are exclusive to concept of salvation, they really are depending upon faith and works. They don't realize this because they are too busy fighting over doctrine, but they really believe the same thing. They just twist it around and look at it from a different light. Sort of like a man in a helicopter over the sea looking down on a boat and a scuba diver underwater looking up at the same boat. The have two different views of the same thing and yet they try to tell each other they are seeing two different objects.

The third group who do believe in salvation by faith and works might just have it right. At least they admit to their true feelings of belief. They know they cant be saved unless they love god and they know that if they don't keep his commandments, then they have not shown their love. They also know at the last day when they are judged by their works, that if they are good they will inherit salvation, if not, off to hell!

Unless you believe in GOD's election and predestination which is preached all over the bible ... do you?
All elect are saved by grace because it is the only reason and enough WITHOUT works.


What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath {whereof} to glory; but not before God.
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
{Saying}, Blessed {are} they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
Blessed {is} the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
Romanos 4:1-8



And not only {this}; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, {even} by our father Isaac;
(For {the children} being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. {elder: or, greater} {younger: or, lesser}
As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
What shall we say then? {Is there} unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
So then {it is} not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will {have mercy}, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Romanos 9:10-18

So... 4th group (the elect)? And Paul is in it with me?

What you said about these 3 groups is true because no one can believe in grace and free will at the same time, no matter how hard they try to make it fit and twist it they always end up relying on them selves, because grace is the opposite to free will .... anyone who understands grace will deduce NO FREE WILL.
That's why it's so obvious who doesn't believe in grace even if they try to hide it... because they preach 2 ways, but the sin is the same... different words, the same heart.

The glory is GOD's or man's... it cannot be booth.

The work of the wicked is to join lie with truth into a blurred mix, the work of the elect is to separate and define them.


INCHRIST...

Sargento

I agree that the heart in Jeremiah 17: 9 no longer exists in the born again child of God, and I'm very familiar with Ezekiel 36::24-27 that God is the prime mover and not man.

What I was saying is many denominations today teach anyone can be saved by just claiming Romans 10: 9-10, and I said they can't because the heart is deceitful and wicked above all things. Perhaps I should have added also Romans 3: 9-12 and John 6:44.

The Old Testament believers were saved same as the New Testament, in that, Jesus is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world Revelation 13:8.

He bore all the sins of those He planned to save back there and the cross is just a demonstration of what He did then.

And this is the proof:

Hebrews 9: 16-17; 22

Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Heb 9:22 “and without shedding of blood is no remission” Hebrews 9:22

There is only one salvation plan.

You're right about the Old Testament believers salvation, but not about Rev 13:8.


And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Rev13:8

What is "from the foundation of the world" is the "not written in the book of life" not the "slain"... because whoever is saved is written in the book of life since the foundation of the world:


According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ef1:4


HE is the book of life, and we have our name in HIM since even before the foundation of the world...we are HIS body and a part of HIM... and that's why HE'll say to some:

Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
Mateus 25:34

... but unto others...

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mateus 7:23


About the lamb, well of course HIS slain was predesignated since the foundation of the world, but it did not happened before HE was crucified... it only happened at the determinate time.

Yes, only one plan of salvation... all redeemed by Jesus's blood.

 

[IBeMe]

(In Christ: What I was saying is many denominations today teach anyone can be saved by just claiming Romans 10: 9-10, and I said they can't because ...)

"That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved."

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

This is indeed God's gift of salvation, and the only way we can be saved.

The Word of God isn't a toy, something to play around with.

The Bible says "thou shalt be saved", and indeed, thou shalt be saved.

We can study the Word of God forever, but until we follow these simple instructions, our study is in vain.

Let's not forget Naaman, who expected some great thing to happen.
Instead, he got the simple instructions, "Go and wash in Jordan seven times."
When he finally humbled himself and followed the simple instruction, he was healed.

We expect to spend a long time in study, perhaps performing some kind of devotional task.

But God said he confounded the wise; we just have to ask in faith.

And, that's what we need to do to receive God's gift of salvation and be born again.

We need to sincerely humble ourselves before God and admit we are sinners and ask Jesus to come into our heart and wash our sins away in His blood.

When a person does that with a sincere heart, they're instantly changed, and they know they've changed.

And after that, they need to be baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, being fully submerged in water.

God made salvation simple enough for little children to be saved, and all need to approach God with the faith and sincerity of little children to receive the free gift.

.

 

[williemac]

I understand the N.T. pretty well and have cited numerous verses to substantiate why I think differently than you. I never stated that salvation comes by our own works. I fully understand that salvation only comes through our belief in Christ. My disagreement has been with the comment that works don't matter, because we aren't rewarded for our works. I simply interpret it differently, and have used ridiculous examples to emphasize my point. You think that all believers will receive the same reward, so Moses and Paul's rewards won't supersede an unrepentant bank robber's reward.

"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, There is no man that hath left house, or parents, or brethren, or wife, or children, for the kingdom of God's sake, Who shall not receive manifold more in this present time, and in the world to come life everlasting" (Luke 18:29-30). Jesus seems to be indicating that rewards can be magnified by what we do in the flesh.

I said that you were "talking" like someone who does not understand the new covenant. I didn't say that you don't understand it.
And there you go again putting words in my mouth. I never said we will all receive the same reward. But on that note, according to Jesus in John 3:16, John 5:24, etc., the reward of everlasting life is given to all who believe. Now, there are indeed individual rewards given to each believer at the judgment seat of Christ, according to the life that was lived.... but this thread is about salvation to everlasting life, not these particular rewards.
The bible says that sin is transgression of law. Therefore the suggestion that one must stop sinning to be saved translates to the keeping of law for salvation. No getting around that.

FYI, there is no mention in scripture that the repentance for salvation is specifically repentance from sin.

On this website I have often pointed out that many have misunderstood or have been misinformed about the definition of repentance. In its most basic form, repentance means to change one's mind. One can change his mind about a variety of things.

For example, on the day of Pentecost, when the crowd observed the speaking of tongues and asked what this means, Peter addressed them all (in one language), and informed them that the one whom they rejected and crucified is in fact the Messiah that they were waiting for. This cut them to the heart and they asked "what shall we do?" His reply was to repent and be baptized in Jesus' name for the remission of sin. (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Their sin? No, their rejection of Jesus, as the context reveals. This is what cut them to the heart. Why would he be telling them to repent of that which was about to be remitted?

The fact is in most cases if not all cases, the repentance to salvation is the change from unbelief to faith. Repent does not mean to quit sinning unless in the context it actually says to repent from a sin. Repent simply means to turn from one thing towards another thing. That is all. This is likely why Paul never bothered to mention repentance in Rom.10:9,10. And also why Jesus never bothered to mention repentance in John 3:16, John 5:24, John 6:50,51. There is automatically a turning or change of mind ( repentance) that takes place in all of these references. Cheers . Blessings, Howie

 

[Dan57]

Dan...

The context around that James's verse is another verse from another book????
Nooow all is explained... so these are your contexts... you take a part of ANOTHER text and invoke it has a context to another part of ANOTHER text... well, that way we can indeed create any context we want.

James was not the only writer who encouraged good works. I invoked other verses to substantiate the same thing that James was illustrating, nothing was out of context.

No, Rahab was also NOT justified by works... yes, James is wrong here too.

Nonsense, Rahab's actions mattered.. Her works were not void of meaning.

A faith without works is fruitless?? Poor of those who have a paralyzing illness... they are fruitless and therefor cannot be justified. REALLY???

I've never stated that anyone is justified by works, but that good works inherit good rewards. Handicapped people certainly have works, their testimony alone is a demonstration of their faith.

So faith is works?
Impressive... how can anyone argue with that?

Where did I say that? I said that we demonstrate our faith by our works. Faith is simply living after that which we believe. Consider that if Noah only had faith but no works, there would be no ark; "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house" (Hebrews 11:7)

What Jesus did was miracles with a purpose (AND SELECTIVELY, not to all and not always, but all had a purpose and it was not charity) .... is that the works you say HE preached?

No, I'm implying that preaching alone is a work... A person can have faith, but still stay home and not say a word. But being moved by faith to go out and preach is the work that brings your faith alive. That's why James said ."Faith without works is dead"

Miracles are not works!!

Really? I doubt that the blind who were made to see and the lame who were made to walk would agree with that statement.. Miracles are definitely good works.

We are obviously not on the same page. I'm only responding because I think what your propagating is a dangerous message... Jesus, Paul, Peter, and James encouraged Christians to do good works, and your saying its not important or even necessary. I completely disagree.

 

[aspen]

Just because Paul emphasized faith over works when he we making a distinction between the grace of God and the law doesn't mean we should discount good works. There is no distinction between the two when we recognize the source of both is God's grace. Discounting good works leads to false humility, just as easily as relying completely on good works leads to arrogance.

 

[Angelina]

Grace is what Jesus did for us on the cross which is extended to whomever will believe... Faith is believing what Jesus did for us on the cross and receiving him as Lord and savior of our lives.

 

[In Christ]

Sargento

The central message of the Bible is salvation through Jesus or the “good news.”

I thought you and I were in the same page or in one mind with one accord as Jesus wanted us to be. But apparently you do not yet understand the gist of Revelation 13:8. Don't misunderstand me. Having a wrong understanding of a scripture text does not make anyone not a child of God.

You said, “You're right about the Old Testament believers salvation, but not about Rev. 13:8

Then you agreed by saying....

“Yes, only one plan of salvation... all redeemed by Jesus' blood.”

The above statements are contradictory in terms.

If all are redeemed by the blood of Christ then so were the Old Testament believers, because Jesus IS the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world. In other words, He sacrificed His life before the world was created, and that is the reason how the Old Testament believers could become saved.

Without the shedding of blood (death) there is no remission (of sin).

Then you said the death of Christ before the foundation of the world was “predesignated” that it did not happen until He was crucified.

Well, consider this...

When Jesus hung on the cross back there in 33 A.D. and He cried with a loud voice, “IT IS FINSIHED.” What was finished? The Atonement of course. But how can this be He did not die yet? This can only happen unless Jesus did truly die before the foundation of the world and that the cross was only a demonstration of “how” He did die back there before the foundation of the world.

Without Revelation 13:8 we would never have known how the Old Testament believers became saved.

The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamd of God which taketh away the sin of the world.

The proof?

Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.


Aspen2

Good works is not the cause for salvation rather good works is the result of salvation.

 

[williemac]

Just because Paul emphasized faith over works when he we making a distinction between the grace of God and the law doesn't mean we should discount good works. There is no distinction between the two when we recognize the source of both is God's grace. Discounting good works leads to false humility, just as easily as relying completely on good works leads to arrogance.

I am not sure why you are making this point. I have never seen anyone argue against the importance of good works or the necessity of abstaining from sin. But in regards to qualification for life, we do discount works. This cannot lead to false humility, as it takes real humility to accept and receive life as a free gift that is neither earned or deserved through our natural resources. just saying.......

 

[IBeMe]

{williemac: the reward of everlasting life is given to all who believe John 3:16}

Great promise, but is there a price tag?

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

(do: perform, execute do some work)

"And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations..."

To receive the free gift of salvation, we have to exercise our faith by doing something; repent and ask for forgiveness. That was easy enough, but we still had to "do" something.

Let's read on, and see if we can learn more.

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."

What's this "deeds" thing?

(deeds: something that is done)
(work: activity in which one exerts strength or faculties to do or perform something)

Let's read on a little further.

"But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God."

(wrought: commit, do, labor for, minister about, work)

Look out folks, looks like there's no escaping this word, "works."

On top of that, we have to make sure "that they are wrought in God."

Well, what is this work we're supposed to be doing?
I can see one thing that's going to take a lot of work; "repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations."

By definition, everything we do, or don't do, is our works ... or lack of works.

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

doeth = works

"And he said unto them, Take heed what ye hear: with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you: and unto you that hear shall more be given."

So, if we "doeth" (works), we have a great promise.

If we don't "doeth" (works), " from him shall be taken even that which he hath."

"Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets."

do = works


{williemac: Therefore the suggestion that one must stop sinning to be saved translates to the keeping of law for salvation.}

"He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death."

We must "overcometh" sin to escape the "second death."


{williemac: FYI, there is no mention in scripture that the repentance for salvation is specifically repentance from sin.}

"Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;"

{williemac: (Acts 2:38). Repent from what? Their sin? No, their rejection of Jesus, as the context reveals.}

And we look and see that it says; "for the remission of sins."


{williemac: Why would he be telling them to repent of that which was about to be remitted?}

Because you have to ask to get.

{williemac: Repent does not mean to quit sinning}

No, because that's not the definition of the word "repent"; reconsider.

(repentance: the action or process of repenting)

"... repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations ..."

When the word "repentance" is associated with the Gospel, then we have restricted the definition.
Then we must, by faith, believe that Jesus died for our sins, be sorry for our sins, and ask for forgiveness.

And Jesus says; "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee."

.

 

[In Christ]

IBEME

Good works is not the cause for salvation rather it is the result of salvation.

“To accept Jesus,” “to confess Jesus,” “to believe in Jesus,” and “to have faith in Jesus,” are all works we perform before salvation therefore contrary to Eph. 2:9

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience
of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1Th. 1:3

No man can (have the power) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Christ as the Faithful One is He that had faith...

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith “of” Jesus Christ unto all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro. 3:22

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
faith “of” Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we
might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works
of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Ga. 2:16

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in
me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith “of” the Son of
God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Ga. 2:20

Also, Galatians 3:22; Philippians 3:9

To receive the free gift of salvation, we have to exercise our faith by doing something; repent and ask for forgiveness. That was easy enough, but we still had to "do" something.

{williemac: Repent does not mean to quit sinning}

No, because that's not the definition of the word "repent"; reconsider.

(repentance: the action or process of repenting)

.
The Bible is its own dictionary. Words we find that are controversy must be searched out how the words are used elsewhere in the Bible.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because
I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I
will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that
I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil
of their doings.

Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull
you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the
evil that I have done unto you.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one
according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves
from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy
ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

The word “repent” therefore, according to the scripture texts above means “to turn to another direction or to turn away from.”

 

[Selene]

St. James says that faith and works go together hand in hand. They are not separate. They go together hand in hand. Good works is what completes our faith and faith would be dead without good works.

James 2:22 You see that his faith and his actions were working together, and his faith was made complete by what he did.

 

[williemac]

IBEME

Good works is not the cause for salvation rather it is the result of salvation.

“To accept Jesus,” “to confess Jesus,” “to believe in Jesus,” and “to have faith in Jesus,” are all works we perform before salvation therefore contrary to Eph. 2:9

Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience
of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father; 1Th. 1:3

No man can (have the power) come to me, except the Father which hath sent me
draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

Christ as the Faithful One is He that had faith...

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith “of” Jesus Christ unto all and
upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: Ro. 3:22

Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the
faith “of” Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we
might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works
of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. Ga. 2:16

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in
me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith “of” the Son of
God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. Ga. 2:20

Also, Galatians 3:22; Philippians 3:9



.
The Bible is its own dictionary. Words we find that are controversy must be searched out how the words are used elsewhere in the Bible.

Jer 4:28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black: because
I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.

Jer 18:8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I
will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.

Jer 26:3 If so be they will hearken, and turn every man from his evil way, that
I may repent me of the evil, which I purpose to do unto them because of the evil
of their doings.

Jer 42:10 If ye will still abide in this land, then will I build you, and not pull
you down, and I will plant you, and not pluck you up: for I repent me of the
evil that I have done unto you.
Eze 18:30 Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one
according to his ways, saith the Lord GOD. Repent, and turn yourselves
from all your transgressions; so iniquity shall not be your ruin.

Eze 24:14 I the LORD have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it;
I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent; according to thy
ways, and according to thy doings, shall they judge thee, saith the Lord GOD.

The word “repent” therefore, according to the scripture texts above means “to turn to another direction or to turn away from.”

In the first place, you are quoting from an old language. King James English is also the language that says little children should "suffer" to come to Jesus. If we are going to put our modern understanding on an old language the we will falter at times. Such is the case when we see the term "faith of" Jesus. This is not meant to say that it is the faith that Jesus has, but rather the faith that is "about" Jesus. Otherwise Jesus would be in contradiction in John 3:16 and John 5:24, when He specifically states that it is the faith belonging to or coming from out of the believer. This is not a case where the bible is telling us that Jesus is doing the believing for us on our behalf. This is precisely why absolutely none of the modern translations, including the New King James translation, renders it "faith of", but rather "faith IN" Jesus.

As well, thank you for agreeing that repentance means to turn away from or to turn in another direction. Notice that within that definition, sin is not the subject. There needs to be a subject in context before we know what is being turned away from. One can turn away from unbelief, rejection of Jesus, or sin...depending upon the context. The repentance unto salvation is repentance, or turning away from, UNBELIEF. This is why we don't see repentance mentioned in Rom.10:9. Did Paul slip up? No. He knows what he is talking about. One believes to righteousness, and confession is made unto salvation, as He says in the next verse. Repentance is a mental exercise, not A physical one.

 

[IBeMe]

{In Christ: Good works is not the cause for salvation}

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone."

You have to "do" something to be saved.

"For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

- you have to hear, understand and consider
- you have to know that you are a sinner
- you have to want forgiveness
- you have to believe that Jesus is the Son of God
- you have to ask
- then, you have to be baptized

If you understand and believe, but don't ask ... nothing happened.

Faith without works is dead; you have to ask.

By definition, "ask" (something you do) is a work.

{In Christ: Good works ... is the result of salvation.}

That statement doesn't grammaticality make sense.

What happens after we ask Jesus into our heart is God's works.

God gives us a new spirit, free of all sin.
That's something God does, not us.


{In Christ: ... therefore contrary to Eph. 2:9}

Please don't tell me you think everywhere the words "works", "doeth", "do" and "deeds" appear in the Bible, it's referring to "works of the law."

It's impossible for anyone to do "works of the law" today; there's no temple and we don't know who Aaron's sons are.

{In Christ: Christ as the Faithful One is He that had faith...}

And He says:

"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven."

So, we have to "doeth". (works")

...


"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart."

"lust" is something a person may "do."
Therefore, by definition, "works."

"Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death."

"... and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works."



.

 

[Robertson]

Good works is not the cause for salvation rather it is the result of salvation.

Why do a lot of you insist on acting like works is an accident. Why do you want to go to be judged and be able to say, "Sorry Lord, I didn't mean to do anything good, it was just a result of my love. Really Father, it was an accident, I wasn't trying to do good to mankind and prepare the way for your coming in glory. Please don't be mad at me for accidentally going about doing good and working out my salvation with fear and trembling!"

The fact is, yes you need to have faith. Then when you have faith, you are commanded to perform the work of repenting of your sins and being baptized by water and by fire. Then you are commanded to keep the commandments for the rest of your life. If you do not this, then no salvation. Very simple people. When you stand before God to be judged, you will be judged on whether you DID all these things. Are your works good or bad? Did you keep the commandments or did you not. If you just say, "Oh well Lord, I had faith and I accepted your grace, but I didn't want to do anything like keep your commandments or do good works because Satan told me that offends you." The Lord will say "off with you, I do not know you!"

 

[aspen]

And the sum of the law is love. When you love unselfishly, by practicing the work of the Holy Spirit in your heart, you automatically keep the law.

The law only tells us how to keep from loving selfishlessly. Jesus shows us how to love unselfishly, and the Holy Spirit continues that work in our hearts and compels us to do it.

This is the fulfillment of the law.

Don't love selfishly; this is how to love unselfishly; Go out and love unselfishly.

Yes, it is a simple concept that takes a life time to practice.

 

[williemac]

Why do a lot of you insist on acting like works is an accident. Why do you want to go to be judged and be able to say, "Sorry Lord, I didn't mean to do anything good, it was just a result of my love. Really Father, it was an accident, I wasn't trying to do good to mankind and prepare the way for your coming in glory. Please don't be mad at me for accidentally going about doing good and working out my salvation with fear and trembling!"

The fact is, yes you need to have faith. Then when you have faith, you are commanded to perform the work of repenting of your sins and being baptized by water and by fire. Then you are commanded to keep the commandments for the rest of your life. If you do not this, then no salvation. Very simple people. When you stand before God to be judged, you will be judged on whether you DID all these things. Are your works good or bad? Did you keep the commandments or did you not. If you just say, "Oh well Lord, I had faith and I accepted your grace, but I didn't want to do anything like keep your commandments or do good works because Satan told me that offends you." The Lord will say "off with you, I do not know you!"

Excuse me, but why do you feel we are going to stand before God to be judged? Do you not know the scriptures? John 5:24, the very words of our Lord Jesus, states that through faith we are NOT going to come into judgment. Do you believe this or not? Don't take my word for it. Read it for yourself and tell me why this is not true.

As well, Jesus will say "I never knew you" to those who do not have Him residing within. But through faith, we receive the abiding presence of God, as Paul assured the Galatians (Gal.3:5). As well, Ephesians 2:8 declares that it (salvation) is not of works lest any man should boast. Do you expect that you will stand before God and boast about your works? You might want to seriously consider the warning made by Jesus in Luke 18:10-14, where the one man praying who boasted about all his good works, did not go away justified, but rather the man who humbled himself, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy.

As far as the gift of life is concerned, which we call salvation, it is all about faith. If this sounds too much like God letting us off the hook then that is the voice of pride talking. God gives grace to the humble, resists the proud (James4:6). The cross is all about giving mankind a gift. It is all about letting us off the hook. We cannot change our nature. This is God's task. We can only receive what He is offering. We cannot offer Him anything, expecting something in return (Rom.11:35..read it and be convinced). Do you really believe the lie that we are to offer God our works for salvation? Then how is this called salvation? Is salvation something we do, or something that is done to us and for us? Are we our own savior?

 

[In Christ]

Why do a lot of you insist on acting like works is an accident. Why do you want to go to be judged and be able to say, "Sorry Lord, I didn't mean to do anything good, it was just a result of my love. Really Father, it was an accident, I wasn't trying to do good to mankind and prepare the way for your coming in glory. Please don't be mad at me for accidentally going about doing good and working out my salvation with fear and trembling!"

The fact is, yes you need to have faith. Then when you have faith, you are commanded to perform the work of repenting of your sins and being baptized by water and by fire. Then you are commanded to keep the commandments for the rest of your life. If you do not this, then no salvation. Very simple people. When you stand before God to be judged, you will be judged on whether you DID all these things. Are your works good or bad? Did you keep the commandments or did you not. If you just say, "Oh well Lord, I had faith and I accepted your grace, but I didn't want to do anything like keep your commandments or do good works because Satan told me that offends you." The Lord will say "off with you, I do not know you!"

This is what Ancient Israel tried to do by keeping the law and they could not enter into the promised land because of unbelief.
Williemac

No need to thank me. Thank God that He opened your spiritual eyes to this truth. I merely supplied the scripture texts God already taught concerning repentance. BTW, the subject matter in the passages that were offered was about the constant evil man does, and if they turn away from their evil, then God too will turn away from the evil (destruction) He was going to perform against them.

I believe the King James Bible is an excellent English translation around. I admit there are some words difficult to understand and few at that, but the Strong's and Young's Concordances were written to compliment the KJV to help and guide us.

Those who advocate for the term “faith in” Jesus does not truly understand salvation. They twist the words “faith of” Jesus to say it is not the faith that Jesus has but rather it is the faith “about” Jesus. Yet we do not find such concept anywhere in Scripture However, Jesus is the very essence of faith. He is the Faithful and True One. Rev. 19:11

This is not a case where the bible is telling us that Jesus is doing the believing for us on our behalf.

This is exactly it! Without Him we can do nothing. John 15:5

Otherwise Jesus would be in contradiction in John 3:16 and John 5:24, when He specifically states that it is the faith belonging to or coming from out of the believer.

We know there are no contradictions in Scripture. The very least, it is our understanding that are faulty.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the Bible and yet the least understood.

The word “so” can be translated “thus” or “in this manner” and the word “whosoever” must be qualified. In this context, the “whosoever” can only be those whom the Father have drawn and given to Jesus. They are those who will call upon and believe in Jesus. John 3:16 can thus be paraphrased:

For God in this manner (so) loved the world that He gave His only Son, that only those whom the Father have drawn and given to Jesus (whosoever) will call upon and believe in Jesus, and should not perish but have everlasting life.

The same is true of John 5:24

This is why we don't see repentance mentioned in Rom.10:9. Did Paul slip up? No. He knows what he is talking about. One believes to righteousness, and confession is made unto salvation,

Romans 10:9-10.
The setting is a time before salvation.

The key words in verse 9 is confess and believe. To confess - means we must have the same mind with God to do the will of God, and we can only do this if we are born again, and not only to admit we are sinners.

To believe - means we hung our lives on Him and in this context it does not mean to acknowledge.

Verse 10 – the heart is the very core of man's being. Jer. 17:9 tell us that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. See also John 3:19

Romans 3:10-11
As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.
There is none that understand, there is none that seek after God.

Romans 3:4
Let God be true and every man a liar.

Salvation is really very complex. Isn't it?

But here is something to ponder upon. Are we saved because we trust in the work of Jesus or are we saved because of the result of the work of Jesus?

Something to ponder indeed?

 

[Sargento]

Hi all, sorry for the delay in answering.
I've been busy, and probably won't be able to answer until the end of the next week, but I'll read all the messages in this and other topics and answer to whoever replied to me.

 

[williemac]

This is what Ancient Israel tried to do by keeping the law and they could not enter into the promised land because of unbelief.

Williemac

No need to thank me. Thank God that He opened your spiritual eyes to this truth. I merely supplied the scripture texts God already taught concerning repentance. BTW, the subject matter in the passages that were offered was about the constant evil man does, and if they turn away from their evil, then God too will turn away from the evil (destruction) He was going to perform against them.

I believe the King James Bible is an excellent English translation around. I admit there are some words difficult to understand and few at that, but the Strong's and Young's Concordances were written to compliment the KJV to help and guide us.

Those who advocate for the term “faith in” Jesus does not truly understand salvation. They twist the words “faith of” Jesus to say it is not the faith that Jesus has but rather it is the faith “about” Jesus. Yet we do not find such concept anywhere in Scripture However, Jesus is the very essence of faith. He is the Faithful and True One. Rev. 19:11


This is exactly it! Without Him we can do nothing. John 15:5


We know there are no contradictions in Scripture. The very least, it is our understanding that are faulty.

John 3:16 is the most quoted verse in the Bible and yet the least understood.

The word “so” can be translated “thus” or “in this manner” and the word “whosoever” must be qualified. In this context, the “whosoever” can only be those whom the Father have drawn and given to Jesus. They are those who will call upon and believe in Jesus. John 3:16 can thus be paraphrased:

For God in this manner (so) loved the world that He gave His only Son, that only those whom the Father have drawn and given to Jesus (whosoever) will call upon and believe in Jesus, and should not perish but have everlasting life.

The same is true of John 5:24


Romans 10:9-10.
The setting is a time before salvation.

The key words in verse 9 is confess and believe. To confess - means we must have the same mind with God to do the will of God, and we can only do this if we are born again, and not only to admit we are sinners.

To believe - means we hung our lives on Him and in this context it does not mean to acknowledge.

Verse 10 – the heart is the very core of man's being. Jer. 17:9 tell us that the heart is deceitful above all things and desperately wicked. See also John 3:19

Romans 3:10-11
As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one.
There is none that understand, there is none that seek after God.

Romans 3:4
Let God be true and every man a liar.

Salvation is really very complex. Isn't it?

But here is something to ponder upon. Are we saved because we trust in the work of Jesus or are we saved because of the result of the work of Jesus?

Something to ponder indeed?

This is a mere matter of opinion. It looks a lot like a universalist speaking. But as well, it looks like hyper-Calvinisims, which states that man has no participation in his salvation and is only saved because God first chose him. Either one of these is false. God has given all of mankind the ability to think, reason,and respond. God gives grace to the humble and resist the proud. There is nothing to ponder. God does not give the new birth so that we can then believe. He gives the new birth to those who accept His word. The gospel is the power of God to salvation. The Calvinist doctrine puts grace as coming first. But the bible says He gives is to the humble and resists the proud. This lines up with the teaching of Jesus in Luke 18:10-14. The man who exalts himself will be humbled. He who humbles himself will be exalted (vs.14). I doubt that this can be twisted the same way John 3:16 and Rom.10,9,10 are twisted above. The Holy Spirit has come to convince the unbelieving world of sin (John 16:9). The conviction of sin is the key. That passage says nothing about convincing only the so called pre chosen elect (elect does not mean 'select', BTW)

John 3:16 is not misunderstood if read in its context. It means what it says. As well, it lines up with John 5:24 and John 6:15,51.