Satan and his demons are real beings/entities (with personalities) not abstract evil within unregenerate man

[Scott Downey]

God tells us He creates darkness & evil. Is the prophet telling us the darkness before creation was created by God? And why does the prophet say that God creates evil? All who are of God are called the light of the world, and the wicked are known as children of the darkness and night, yet both the good and the evil are created in the womb through the providence of God.

Isaiah 45:5-7 (KJV) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Psalm 104:20-23 (KJV) Thou makest darkness, and it is night: wherein all the beasts of the forest do creep forth. The young lions roar after their prey, and seek their meat from God. The sun ariseth, they gather themselves together, and lay them down in their dens. Man goeth forth unto his work and to his labour until the evening.

Proverbs 4:19 (KJV) The way of the wicked is as darkness: they know not at what they stumble.

John 12:35-36 (KJV) Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

1 Thessalonians 5:5 (KJV) Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

I have noticed you are not reasonable about the nature of angels or the creation and the fall.
Can not accept that God made everything good, yet the creations, some of them made bad choices, and disobeyed God.

 

[rwb]

You're postulating there was something before God created anything, and you're calling it the darkness. The only thing that had any 'preexistence' was God.
You seem to be setting up a kind of dualism.

Scripture was written for US, not God, and simply as a way to understand things, as an 'understanding' to know Him. God spoke all things into existence from nothing,

Where does it say the darkness that was upon the face of the deep was created by God? It says only that God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:1-4 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

[Scott Downey]

Romans 8
18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God.

20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope;

21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of [f]corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body. 24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.

 

[Scott Downey]

Key Biblical Passages Supporting Creation from Nothing​

• Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” This opening verse implies that God initiated creation without pre-existing materials.
• Hebrews 11:3 — “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” This verse is often cited as a direct affirmation of creation ex nihilo.
• John 1:3 — “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Where does it say the darkness that was upon the face of the deep was created by God? It says only that God divided the light from the darkness.

Genesis 1:1-4 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

This is comical really!
We have not been given to know everything, as in step by step of all things God made.
Very first verse 'In the beginning' includes whatever states exist, God created those conditions for that to come about.
We have been given to know that God created everything, all things, and darkness is a thing too.

 

[rwb]

I have noticed you are not reasonable about the nature of angels or the creation and the fall.
Can not accept that God made everything good, yet the creations, some of them made bad choices, and disobeyed God.

I'm not reasonable about the nature of angels or the creation and the fall? What I cannot accept is doctrine perpetuated through mythology rather than biblical truth. God did NOT make His spirit messengers called angels for the purpose of ministering to the heirs of salvation, only to have them fall. Satan is and always has been a demonic spirit who from the beginning is a liar and murderer.

 

[Scott Downey]

@rwb, arguing that God used the preexisting darkness to separate the light He created from the darkness which just is everywhere, not made by God.

 

[Scott Downey]

I'm not reasonable about the nature of angels or the creation and the fall? What I cannot accept is doctrine perpetuated through mythology rather than biblical truth. God did NOT make His spirit messengers called angels for the purpose of ministering to the heirs of salvation, only to have them fall. Satan is and always has been a demonic spirit who from the beginning is a liar and murderer.

'demonic spirit who from the beginning is a liar and murderer.'
The beginning mentioned is Jesus referring back the creation of man, Adam and Eve.
And their being 'murdered'

Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning, and that started in Eden at the creation of man.

 

[rwb]

Key Biblical Passages Supporting Creation from Nothing​

• Genesis 1:1 — “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” This opening verse implies that God initiated creation without pre-existing materials.
• Hebrews 11:3 — “By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God’s command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.” This verse is often cited as a direct affirmation of creation ex nihilo.
• John 1:3 — “All things were made through him, and without him was not anything made that was made.”

What is this darkness upon the face of the deep that existed prior to God dividing the Light from the darkness calling them day & night?

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

 

[Scott Downey]

What does creation ex nihilo mean? - Answer The Bible

Creation ex nihilo refers to the theological doctrine that God created the universe out of nothing. The Latin phrase "ex nihilo" means "out of nothing". This

www.answerthebible.com

Creation ex nihilo refers to the theological doctrine that God created the universe out of nothing. The Latin phrase “ex nihilo” means “out of nothing”. This doctrine is foundational to much of Christian theology and affirms that God uniquely brought forth all of existence, material and spiritual, without using any pre-existing materials or relying on any other beings. Several key biblical passages point to this understanding of creation.

Genesis 1:1 states, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The Hebrew word for “create” here is “bara”, which implies creation out of nothing. The verse suggests that before God’s creative act, nothing existed except God Himself. John 1:3 also affirms this by stating that “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” God created everything through Christ, His eternal Word. There was no “anything” before creation for God to work with.

Hebrews 11:3 further clarifies that “the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.” What we see around us today was not made from visible, pre-existing materials. Rather, God spoke creation into being ex nihilo. Colossians 1:16 also points to Christ being the one through whom “all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible”. The completeness of this statement implies creation out of nothing.

 

[Scott Downey]

What is this darkness upon the face of the deep that existed prior to God dividing the Light from the darkness calling them day & night?

Genesis 1:2 (KJV) And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

You were not there to know, no one was except God.
And suggesting that it was outside of God's creation, well, that's not scriptural or biblical or even logical.

 

[rwb]

@rwb, arguing that God used the preexisting darkness to separate the light He created from the darkness which just is everywhere, not made by God.

I don't believe God used the pre-existing darkness. I believe He intruded/invaded the darkness dividing it with His Light!

 

[Scott Downey]

I don't believe God used the pre-existing darkness. I believe He intruded/invaded the darkness dividing it with His Light!

Then why did you write this, as you earlier said 'spiritual evil called darkness and death has always existed...'
which means 'pre existed', you are confusing yourself, and are inconsistent.

 

[rwb]

'demonic spirit who from the beginning is a liar and murderer.'
The beginning mentioned is Jesus referring back the creation of man, Adam and Eve.
And their being 'murdered'

Satan was a liar and murderer from the beginning, and that started in Eden at the creation of man.

Exactly! It was through deception the serpent (symbolizing Satan) spoke to Eve that resulted in sin and death through sin entering creation. There was nothing created for the darkness to deceive until God created all that is on earth, the sea and the sky. Before the creation of the world Christ is the Lamb slain. That means the Covenant God made unto mankind was determined before God invaded the darkness by His Light and created all that was created. God knew before creation that darkness through evil would be part of creation and thereby provided Himself the Lamb who would take away sin and death, that His people would be saved.

 

[soberxp]

Satan clearly knows to obey God, but Jesus Christ is a man to Satan.

 

[rwb]

View attachment 71911

Then why did you write this, as you earlier said 'spiritual evil called darkness and death has always existed...'
which means 'pre existed', you are confusing yourself, and are inconsistent.

I should have written that darkness is representative of sin and death that existed from the beginning of creation when God created man.

 

[rwb]

What does creation ex nihilo mean? - Answer The Bible

Creation ex nihilo refers to the theological doctrine that God created the universe out of nothing. The Latin phrase "ex nihilo" means "out of nothing". This

www.answerthebible.com

Creation ex nihilo refers to the theological doctrine that God created the universe out of nothing. The Latin phrase “ex nihilo” means “out of nothing”. This doctrine is foundational to much of Christian theology and affirms that God uniquely brought forth all of existence, material and spiritual, without using any pre-existing materials or relying on any other beings. Several key biblical passages point to this understanding of creation.

Genesis 1:1 states, “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth.” The Hebrew word for “create” here is “bara”, which implies creation out of nothing. The verse suggests that before God’s creative act, nothing existed except God Himself. John 1:3 also affirms this by stating that “All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made.” God created everything through Christ, His eternal Word. There was no “anything” before creation for God to work with.

Hebrews 11:3 further clarifies that “the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.” What we see around us today was not made from visible, pre-existing materials. Rather, God spoke creation into being ex nihilo. Colossians 1:16 also points to Christ being the one through whom “all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible”. The completeness of this statement implies creation out of nothing.

I agree! All that God created was created out of NOTHING! The voice of God was all that was needed for Him to intrude the darkness that covered the face of the deep and divide the darkness by His glorious Light!

 

[WPM]

Was Paul really saying believers will judge angels of God? What would we judge them for? Did God make His angel ministering spirits of those who are heirs of salvation then discover they cannot be trusted to do God's bidding? That makes no sense.

We shall be judges of those who call themselves messengers of God. They are judged according to what is written. Knowing that there would be counterfeit disciples of Christ in the church, before leaving Christ gave gifts to the church, that they might be able to judge between that which is truth or error.

Ephesians 4:8 (KJV) Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.

Ephesians 4:11-16 (KJV) And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers; For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ: From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

Yea, right! "Hath God said?"

These are not demons but elect angels. Why would we judge God's prophets or messengers? Stop changing the Word to support TS.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

But does he? He high-fives everything TS posts on this issue. He never disagrees with him. He also doesn't think Satan is an evil spirit, but basically evil. Get my opening post.

I'm just going by things he has said. He has said that he believes in the existence of angels, including Satan and evil spirits (demons). But, his continual likes of TS's posts where TS includes his denial of the existence of angels, including Satan and his demons, makes me wonder if he has changed his mind about that. Why would he want to come across as if he agrees with everything TS has been saying if he doesn't actually agree with some of it? I don't understand that.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

When I came back into this discussion, I had resolved myself to reply to some posts and simply ignore others. I came back in because I believe my replies might be beneficial to some who read here. Even if they will of little doubt continue to greatly annoy some who cannot accept Satan was NEVER an angel of God whose disobedience made him evil.

Truth is that I've come to believe lately is that God did not create Satan at all. Not as evil, nor as angel of God who disobeyed God and became an evil spirit.

So, you have now decided that there is no evil spirit being named Satan at all? Previously, you acknowledge his existence, but just denied that he was formerly one of God's angels who fell. Do you believe in the existence of angels at all at this point? If so, why do you give likes to posts where TS expresses his view that he doesn't believe in the existence of angels at all?

Do you believe in the existence of evil spirits that are called demons (or devils) in scripture who are capable of possessing human beings? Do you believe in the existence of spirit beings called angels who primarily dwell in heaven and serve God both in heaven and on earth?

I think a case could be made that spiritual evil called darkness & death has always existed and was not part of all that God created to be "very good".

How could anything exist without God creating it? Only God Himself has always existed, so that is not possible. Please explain what you mean here.

The Spirit that is God existed before the foundation of the world, which proves there was a spiritual presence even in the darkness. The darkness that brought death was invaded by God when He spoke and His Light entered into all that He created of the earth, sea, and sky. The darkness was not yet defeated but would be utterly defeated through the promised Lamb of God who would come to give everlasting life to whosoever believes on Him.

There is no scripture which teaches that spiritual evil/darkness and death have always existed, so please explain to me where you are getting this idea from.

How could evil have existed before anyone ever did anything evil (evil = rebellion against God) and how could death have existed before anyone died?