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Saved by faith? Or also works?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by lastsecman, Mar 12, 2007.

  1. lastsecman

    lastsecman New Member

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    :bible: :angel10: :naughty:
     
  2. Living Martyr

    Living Martyr New Member

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    Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9 said that justification is by faith alone, and not by works, however James also says that justification is by faith plus works. Now this always seems to cause problem with different denominations....But what I think is that James was saying that a person can't have faith without producing any good works (James 2:17-18). I think he's emphasizing that real faith in Christ will produce a changed life and thus cause you to do good works (James 2:20-26). What he's not saying is that faith plus works gets you salvation.
     
  3. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    James was a practical man. James says, look, I cannot see you faith, show me your faith by putting it to good works. James wanted to see them practicing it, and to this Paul agrees, Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. Through grace by faith Salvation, but this is not of ourselves, it is the gift of God. This is the only time in all of Scripture where God gives an oblation to mankind. All other oblations are from man to God. But this Salvation through faith is the grace of God, a gift. There are quite a few verses which state faith is of God, the faith of Christ, the faith of Him, &c, &c. Of course we are to have faith in His faith, for one of His titles even states, He is faithful.Moreover, we are His workmanship, we are unto good works, but it is not our works that save us. We wouldn't be in need of a saviour if we could save ourselves by our works. But it is fully expected that once we know of our salvation, we should earnestly endeavor to be found in the practice of a walk that is worthy.During the Acts there is written the instructions to the Hebrews, that they really have only a one time shot at receiving the word of truth, and if they practiced anything else than what was expected of them, they could not be offered this truth again, the OT kingdom was near. The fruit they were to bear was the fruit of repentance. We find that first, John the Baptist came, preaching, repent, the kingdom is near, it is at hand. Then the Lord Christ Jesus, and the Messiah to His people came, saying, repent the kingdom is at hand. After they crucified their Messiah, He rose from the dead, and they were sent, saying, repent the kingdom is at hand, receive the promises of the fathers.This continued until, as Roman 10 shows, all Israel had heard, the sound of this truth and the kingdom being at hand went out into all the world where there were Israelites. But we know Israel did not repent as a nation, and their kingdom did not come.We must not confuse this one time offering of repentance to Israel, and their not being able to again turn unto repentance with any fatalistic doctrine, nor should we find that one may save themselves by their works when it is not specifically instructed.Many do not realize that we are attempting to rob Christ of His Glory when we try to add some of our works to His Finished Work on the Tree. And that is just human nature. To add something of ourselves, to obtain some glory of our own, rather than giving all glory to the savior of all men.
     
  4. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    I keep the commandments because I want to please my Father who gave me the commandments... I want to be like Yashua , who kept the commandments...I will say that my life has been blessed in physical and spiritual ways since I began to keep the whole law. The food laws are good for my body as is keeping Sabbath and it is good for my mental health. God knows we cannot keep the whole law of ourselves but with the help of the Holy Spirit we can and we can only have the Holy Spirit through the love of Yashua. I am not adding anything to what Christ has done for me but seeking to be Christlike, HE kept the WHOLE LAW...It does help me keep my health, keeps me in good standing with the community...God didn't give us the law as a punishment, but rather for our good. Its a good thing. Why should we do away with it? Jesus said he came to fullfill the law... I say with His help we can be fullfilled in keeping the law. When we fall short we confess and repent... otherwise there is no sin. Without the law we have no measure of what sin is...it is the mirror in which we see ourselves as unclean.
     
  5. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    May I ask what you mean by keeping the commandments? I want to ask you to look at some hard things, to question what is written, and to whom, and whether or not we have our own letters in the Bible. I mean, there are over a thousand commandments. What Scriptures have you used to not keep all of them, assuming you can't keep them all, perhaps you do, you write that you keep them.?.A first question might be, do we have a truth for today which is different than truth given in another time to a different people? Has God, for example, revealed anything new, given out any new instructions through His sent ones?Do you, for example, keep the commandment to stone to death those who do not keep the commandments? Why not? Is there somewhere that changed? Where is it? What is different? Can we find any place in Scripture where the instruction is that we may command the instructions, that we may take what is Israel's commandments and apply them to ourselves? Do we find any such instruction to where Israel's commandments are carried over to the present time, a parentheses, a period of God's Almighty outworking that is not mentioned in the OT? If we don't, why would we be inclinded to believe someone who tells us that that is truth for today? I believe that we can find in the Bible additional instruction, even instruction which was not written until all Israel had first heard during the Acts, the Acts, which concludes Israel in blindness and hardness of heart. Whereupon, the apostle is sent as a prisoner of the Lord for you gentiles, or nations.I would just ask you to think about those things, how Paul could teach the exact opposite of what Moses taught, each equally inspired by the living God. Can and did God speak in various times in various ways to different people? We read that this is true. You will find that in Hebrews. A letter written to Hebrews.
     
  6. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Paul was a very religious Jew who kept the law after his conversion to Christianity. He wen to the temple a took a Nazarite vow that included a thanksgiving offering. The first Christians were all Jews who continued to keep the law. Paul even told the Ephesion that they had left there first love, they were not cold Christians, but Jews who had been living in a foreign land and had fallen away from keeping the law... I do not break the laws of the country I live in... If the country I lived in were to keep the law according to Moshe, then there would be lots fewer rapists and murderers because they would be put to death....there is is a commandament for me to keep the laws and statutes of the country I live in. If you say we are no longer required to keep the law, then you think its okay with God to kill, steal, commit adultry? When we sin, how do idenitfy that sin if not from the law? If God didn't say don't do something or do something then we would have no sin to repent from or to have to recieve salvation. The only difference is now we have the blood of Christ to cover our sin instead of the bullock .The reason we need the blood is the same.God made our bodies and therefore he knows what is best for our bodies... I keep the dietary laws because our bodies have not changed when Christ died on the cross, our bodies function the same as when God made them... He gave us those laws for our benefit, why not use what is beneficial.I personally try to keep the Biblical laws...including the dietary laws, not the rabinical laws....I keep Shabbat and all the feasts, I refrain from anything that may be associated with idols or gods other than the true one God of the Bible and my precious Savior Jesus....Yashua...who by the way kept all the law all the time. I have not been successful in doing that. I asked Jesus to be my savior when I was 5... He said okay. He has been my savior and my best friend ever since... I'm 51 now. My son who is 12 is much better at keeping the whole law that I am...Of course we do not go to the temple and offer sacrifice....There is not a temple and Jesus is my sacrifice. I will tell you that God has blessed me and my family greatly since we "try" to keep the law. The first of which is to love the Lord you God with all your heart....How can you have a problem with that?
     
  7. n2thelight

    n2thelight Well-Known Member

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    You've surely heard some of these questions before: "Are you saved ?", "Have you accepted Jesus Christ as your personal Savior?", "Are you a Christian?", "Do you have a personal relationship with God?", "Are you born again?", "Are you going to Heaven?". . . . But what do these things really mean and just what exactly are people saying when they ask you these things? Sometimes Christians can be a little overzealous when they share God's truth with others (called witnessing). Many times they neglect to fully explain just exactly what it means to be saved or not saved. They are often quick to state: "You're going to Hell if you ain't saved," but what good does it do to tell someone that, if they don't even know for sure what 'being saved' means? This short Bible study will endeavor to put into words, belay some fears, and clear up some confusion about what God's Word says about salvation, forgiveness, and the eternity in Heaven. For God loves all His children the same, even the ones that don't yet know or accept Him or His Son Jesus Christ. Yes God loves us all alike, He is more pleased with some that with others but even those that deny Him still have His love. God may not like what some of us are doing, but He still loves us all and it is His desire that each and every one of His children overcome, attain salvation, and not perish in the Lake of Fire (Hell):Matt 18:14 (Jesus speaking) 14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish. (KJV) We are all God's children, he created our souls, and He is our Heavenly Father whether we acknowledge Him or not. God even created satan, the most evil entity in the universe. God created everything and everyone. Satan however has forfeited his place in the eternity with God, and as it is written satan will be cast into the Lake of Fire [Revelation 20:10]. Way back in the Old Testament days, the people were instructed to sacrifice animals to God as an atonement for their sins, were-by through the death of the sacrificial animal, the people would be spared the eternal death of their soul in Hell. But then in the New Testament (New Covenant) God changed that, He made a more perfect way. God sent His only begotten Son (virgin birth) , Jesus Christ, to come to this earth, whom was Himself born as a baby of woman just like we were, who lived 33 years as a flesh man without committing not even one sin; and then He died on the cross for every sin that every person on the entire planet could ever and would ever possibly commit, from the first days to the last days of this world for those whom believe upon Him and ASK for forgiveness. And after three days dead in the tomb, Jesus Christ rose on that third day from the dead and ascended to the right hand of God in Heaven where He remains to this day. When Jesus arose from the dead He had defeated death {Heb 2:14}, He defeated death for us whom believe. Because of what Jesus did, the eternal death of a soul in the Lake of Fire has no power at all over those who simply believe that God had Jesus to do it for us.Heb 2:9-18 9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee {Ps 22:22}.13 And again, I will put my trust in him {2nd Sam 22:3}. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me {Isa 8:18}.14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted. (KJV) You see, there are two deaths, there are two bodies with each of us, the flesh body that we can see and the spiritual body within - our very soul so to speak; the first death is the death of the body (flesh) , but the other death is far more important. The second death is the death of a soul, and it is eternal. We all die in the flesh, and they bury our flesh body, but our soul (spiritual body) goes immediately back to our Heavenly Father upon the instant of our death. There we await the Final Judgment Day, and those who have not overcome will then be cast into the Lake of Fire (Hell) to be nevermore, but those who do overcome will go on to spend the eternity in Heaven with God, Jesus, and all the others who overcame.1 Cor 15:44 (the two bodies, flesh and spirit)44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. (KJV) So when they say "we are saved', they are saying that we are saved from the second death, that meaning: saved from the death of our souls in the Lake of Fire (Hell). And when they say 'born again' what they are really saying is: 'born from above'. It means to have eternal life from God enter your spiritual body, it means that your soul can live for ever and not perish in the Lake of Fire. Jesus explains this to a Jewish priest in the below scripture. This Jewish priest was a good man who believed upon Jesus. This priest even risked excommunication by coming to speak with Jesus, that is why he came to Jesus by 'night', in those days no one traveled by night. The high Jewish priest at that time forbade any to come to Jesus; this man had faith to risk it all! Below, we see the man call Jesus 'Rabbi', this simply means 'teacher' in Hebrew and it is an address of respect:John 3:1-36 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God [Heaven].4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. (KJV)Born again, what does it mean? We are all born from a 'sac' of water (Amniotic Fluid) in our mother's womb, this is the first birth, the birth through the water (and while Baptism is indeed important and Jesus did command us to so be, it is not the subject being spoken of in this particular Scripture). But we must also be born into the Kingdom of God through Jesus Christ to attain eternal life in Heaven. This is the second birth, the birth through the Holy Spirit in Jesus Christ. The second birth is spiritual and we have that choice unlike the choice of being born from our mother's womb. And once we are born spiritually through belief in Christ into the Kingdom of God (Heaven), then the second death (eternal death) has no power over us. For you remember that Jesus defeated that death on the cross for all who would believe upon Him. In other words, when you reach out to Jesus Christ and believe that He is the only Begotten Son of God who died and rose again and is in Heaven with God, then He spreads His cloak of protection over your very soul, and God honors that because He said He would.What does it mean to be a Christian? Being a Christian means you believe in Christ. It does not mean you are some kind of saint. We all sin, every single human being sins to some degree, some more than others. The difference is that being a Christian means that you know that your sins are forgiven, after you repent for each one, through the sacrifice of Jesus Christ that day on the cross. In the scripture below, Apostle Paul is speaking about forgiveness of sin through faith in Jesus Christ. The word propitiation means 'payment for sin'. Jesus Christ was that propitiation, Jesus Christ dies that we may live, Jesus Christ is the only door to salvation through His suffering and by the grace of our Lord God to us whom would simply believe.Rom 3:23-2623 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. (KJV) You see, God knew that man could never make it on his own, that is why He sent Jesus to 'stand in the gap' for us. We have used the term "believe in Christ" many times in this study, but what exactly does that mean? In the beginning a new Christian is a little unsure of himself, he is a little unsure of his faith. This is normal and it is OK. As you study more of God's Written Word, His letter to you, the Bible, your faith grows. When you study the Bible and ask God to help you understand and increase your faith, He sends His Spirit upon you, the Holy Spirit, and a feeling of assuredness comes into you soul. This is the second birth, it is your spiritual body blossoming with truth. The more you study God's Word the more you grow spiritually. It's like a little seed when it is watered it grows, but when you cut the water off it shrivels and dies. The spiritual water that you pour on your soul is the True Word of God, it is the knowledge of Jesus Christ and all things God has shown us through the Bible. You gain that knowledge by reading of it in the book that God ensured we would always have - The Bible. Jesus is called the Living Water, for through Him a dormant seed grows into a mighty one of faith. That seed is your soul. John 4:5-26 (Jesus is the Living Water)5 Then cometh he to a city of Samaria, which is called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph.6 Now Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus on the well: and it was about the sixth hour.7 There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink.8 (For his disciples were gone away unto the city to buy meat.)9 Then saith the woman of Samaria unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, which am a woman of Samaria? for the Jews have no dealings with the Samaritans.10 Jesus answered and said unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water.11 The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: from whence then hast thou that living water?12 Art thou greater than our father Jacob, which gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his children, and his cattle?13 Jesus answered and said unto her, Whosoever drinketh of this water shall thirst again:14 But whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life.15 The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come hither to draw.16 Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither.17 The woman answered and said, I have no husband. Jesus said unto her, Thou hast well said, I have no husband:18 For thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: in that saidst thou truly.19 The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet.20 Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship.21 Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father.22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.25 The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things.26 Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. (KJV) Jesus would go on to use that woman to convert her whole village to Christianity while she was yet in sin. (though it wasn't yet called Christianity till after Christ's death). And Jesus died on the cross for us though we were yet in sin. God wants us all to come to Him, God wants us all to be saved and spend the eternity with Him in Heaven. Man complicates God's Word, heaps all kinds of traditions on it, but Jesus makes it simple. God is not sitting up there in Heaven just waiting to zap some poor soul to Hell, if He had wanted that, He would not have sent us Jesus. read the verse below in the simplicity that is Christ:John 3:16-18 (Jesus speaking of Himself)16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. (KJV)How do become among the saved? So how do you become saved? That's the easiest thing in the world, even a child can do it, and it doesn't cost a thing. That does not mean it is cheap however, for Jesus paid a mighty and dear price for you to have the way to salvation and eternal life open to you! John 14:6 6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. (KJV) Just pray to God somewhere alone, and tell Him that you want the everlasting life that He promised all whom believe upon Jesus. Tell Him that you are a new believer and that you want Him to pour out the Living Water upon your soul. Ask Him to help you more fully understand His perfect plan and to help mature the small seed of faith that is growing within you. He will, He promised that He would. And God, from the foundation of the world, made it impossible that He could lie:Heb 6:13-20 (Apostle Paul speaking)13 For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself,14 Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee.15 And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise.16 For men verily swear by the greater: and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife.17 Wherein God, willing more abundantly to shew unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath:18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec. (KJV) And when you pray you don't have to kneel down or lay on your face, get comfortable and just talk to Him like He was your father, for He is your Father, He is your Heavenly Father who created your very soul. When you pray, you always pray to the God, and after the prayer you tell God that you ask these things, or give this thanks... in the name of Jesus Christ. That documents that you are a believer in the only begotten Son of God, Savior, Jesus Christ. And in the name of Jesus Christ ask God to forgive your sins. God knows all your sins, He can read your mind, but when you repent of the sin, He promises to remember it no more - It is blotted out of the book, it is blotted out of the book that you shall be judged from on Judgment day when we all (believers and non-believers alike) individually stand before God and give account of our lives {Rev 20:11-15}.Heb 10:10-2010 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool.14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; (KJV)How do you repent? Repentance means to have a change of heart (a change of intentions), it does not mean that you are going to be perfect after it, it means that you are sorry that you did something that you know God didn't want you to do. And it means that you will try harder the next time. But if you should mess up and do it again, then you ask for forgiveness again. You will find that in time you will actually start sinning less and less. But you will never be perfect, for none was perfect in the flesh but Jesus Christ only. And once you repent and ask forgiveness for a particular sin, don't ask to be forgiven again for that same incident, because God forgave it the first time you asked, and asking again means you didn't believe that He forgave it the first time. The blood of Christ on the cross is able and worthy to wash all sins away. We could never be worthy ourselves, that is why Jesus did what He did for us, He alone was worthy, and through Him we stand approved unto God. We are not forgiven on our own account or because we were ever able to make up for the sin through our own merits, but rather on account of Jesus Christ who though being perfect died the death of the guilty that the guilty could be spared. That my friend is true love! When you repent, it is acceptable and advised to state your sins to God IN PRIVATE and then ask Him to also forgive the sins that you may have forgotten, He understands. Always be honest with God, he knows what you have done, He was there when you did it, He is everywhere and He has 'seen it all'. I know many of you may have heard that you have to confess your sins to some man some preist, but that is not true, nor is it stated anywhere in the Bible that you must repent your sins through a man. Man cannot forgive sin, he would beter spend his time repenting for his own sins. How do you pray? Jesus set the example for us when He told us how to pray in [Matt 6:9-13]. Jesus told us to go directly to God ourselves, He even left out praying to Him, or even asking Him for forgiveness, much less a priest. Observe the first line in the only specific prayer Jesus told us to pray. This prayer is called the: "Our Father," and it is to be one-on-one between you and your Heavenly Father, although it is OK to pray along with your friends and loved ones, but always praying to God Himself:Matt 6:5-15 (Jesus speaking)5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.11 Give us this day our daily bread.12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses. (KJV)A note on the divisions within Christianity Christians do not always agree on every little doctrinal thing, this can be confusing to a new believer, but you can find comfort and strength in the fact that each and every single Christian alive, or who has ever lived, or who will ever live, agrees on the one immutable fact below. Because it is the belief in that single fact which makes them a Christian in the first place:Rom 5:8-9 8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. (KJV) God bless you my friend, and it is my heartfelt prayer that God touches your heart and leads you on that path towards Him that has no end. We at Watchmen Bible Study Group hope that you will continue to study with us. Maybe you could sign our guest book and even post a question perhaps. Either way, God bless you, your loved ones, and your understanding of our Heavenly Father's Written Word, The Bible; This we ask in the Precious and Powerful name of Jesus Christ, our Savior. May we muse with Apostle Paul as he speaks of the love and forgiveness that is in Christ Jesus:1 Tim 1:12-17 (Apostle Paul speaking)12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.17 Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen. (KJV)AMEN! AMEN!--------------------------------------------------------------------------------A SAMPLE PRAYER: You may be unsure on just how to pray to our Heavenly Father, unsure of exactly what to say. That is OK and it is normal. You always pray directly to God Himself, not to Angels or anything or anyone else that God created, for even they must pray to God. No matter what anyone may have told you, you only pray to the Creator, not to the creation. You do not need intercessors, God can hear you just fine on His own. What is prayer? It is you talking directly to your Heavenly Father, the One whom created your very soul. He knows all and even reads your mind, you can't keep anything from Him - and to try to keep something from Him is not being honest with Him. He wants honesty not perfection. He doesn't want repetitious prayers that sound like chants, He doesn't want prepared 'standard issue' prayer, He wants to hear from your heart. He wants to hear what YOU have to say in your own words - not the same words that millions of other people are reciting. Make your prayers the unique thoughts of you, a child of God, to your Heavenly Father. Tell Him how YOU feel, tell Him how your day went, tell Him your fears, your joys, tell Him your sorry for the wrong that you have done, ask Him to strengthen you so that you become a better person. He will, He told us He would. If you are unsure of something, tell Him. If you have trouble understanding the Bible, ask Him to touch your mind so the words come alive in your mind. Ask Him to forgive your sins and to help you make less and less of them as time goes on - He will - He promises us that He will help us if we ask Him. Not many people these days care about God anymore, He has been taken out of the schools for two generations, it just makes His day when one of His beloved children reaches out in prayer and tells Him that they love Him. Below is just a sample prayer, a sort of guide line, it will give confidence to begin. Add to this prayer anything that is on your mind, mention your troubles, ask for forgiveness, thank Him for your good fortune, bring your prayer requests directly to Him, ask for strength to improve your life and to tame your temptations. Prayer is not some solemn event, it is a time to talk to your Father - your Heavenly Father, and He will comfort you. Think about it, God owns everything, nothing is created that He did not create, He gets His best joy in the simple things, the love of a child has a powerful force on a parent, a mothers love would cause her to lay down her own life to save her baby - how much more would God do for us, He whom created us all and everything! We are God's children and He is our Father - our Heavenly Father, there is no higher. God loves us all the same and he has no more respect for one of His creation than for another. All the Apostles and all the Angels of Heaven could pray at the exact same moment that you did, and God would hear you the same as all the others put together. God is so very fair, and to Him all souls are equal. White, black , brown..., male, female, sick, healthy, saint, sinner, smart, slow, fat, skinny, lost, found - He made each one special, and loves them all the same. Some give Him more pleasure than others, but he loves them all exactly the same. And don't forget to thank Him for the good things. It seems that we all remember to pray when we want or need something, and then when we get it, we forget about God until the next crisis in our lives. Then we pray again for Him to give us this, or, give us that. How do you think that makes Him feel - to just be used as a 'wish list'? How would you feel if your children only talked to you on payday? God has emotions, we were created in His image and we have emotions, so why do we forget that He does as well? God is not some cold distant unfeeling force floating around Heaven somewhere just waiting to zap some poor soul to hell. He is our Heavenly Father who only seeks the love and obedience of His beloved children, of whom you are one. And most of all remember this one thing: God owns everything and everyone, and He can maneuver the world for just one of His children if He so desires. He can change the minds and influence the decisions of those in the world who have control over your life. Jesus said it best:Mark 10:2727 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. (KJV)Just believe!"Dear Heavenly Father, I love you, please forgive me my sins in the precious and powerful name of your only begotten Son Jesus Christ. Help me to improve my life and to overcome the temptations that face me. Protect me from the evil in this world, and be a wall of protection around me. Touch my understanding so that when I read your Written Word I understand that which you wrote to me. Thank-you for being there for me when often times I did not even know it - please be with me always - I know that you promised that you would always be there for me. I ask all things, and give all thanks and praise to you Father - in the name of Jesus Christ, my Savior, sent to me from You. Amen!"God bless you, and study His Written Word, the Bible, for within it are all your answers.Study by Nick Goggin
     
  8. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    betchevy thank you for the respone. Although I understand you position, I have to side with Paul, and others in the NT, that if you go back to the law which is bondage, then Christ profits you nothing. Paul's greatest fear was that they would return to the week and beggarly things of the law. Paul writes almost an entire letter to this in perhaps the earliest Acts period letter, called Galatians.At one point Christ told His disciples, go out and preach the kingdom, take nothing with you. Later, to these same disciples, Christ reminds them when He told them to go forth and take nothing with them, and then He says, BUT NOW sell what you have and buy swords,What kind of disciples would they have been if they said, no Lord, we like the old ways better than the new instructions? Well, they would not have been very good disciples would they? Of course not. And this is what many are doing today. They are ignoring the BUT NOW statements of instruction that came later. In fact, there was such a commotion over the keeping of the law, who was to keep it and so forth, that they decided to have a meeting about it. This meeting took place at the synagogue in Jerusalem in Acts 15, where it 'seemed good to us and to the Holy Spirit' that they keep four necessary things. Three had to do with food, and the one with fornication.k That's it! Four necessary things. Don't take my word for it, search and see who was given the Law. Read it for yourself.Then even these are done away with later, in the epistles written after Acts concludes Israel in blindness and hardness of heart.
     
  9. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Eporanious......There is no doubt that your are correct and your post is addressing salvation, I do agree that no man cometh unto the Father except through the Lord Jesus. Salvation is only by the blood of Yashua . There is no other way.In James 5:16 it says....Confess your faults to one another, pray for one another,that ye may be healed. the effectual fervant prayer of a righteous man availeth much. Righteous 1342 in the Stong's concordance says by implication holy.....How would one be holier that another in this verse, that one's prayers would be more readily heard by the Father than another? If we are all of Christ in salvation. Do you not think that keeping the law could be the difference here? In wanting to be Christ like, I desire to keep the lifestyle he kept... He kept the whole law. I am not able to keep the whole law even though I try.. I do this not for salvation but for the love I have for the Father and also for what it will bring me after I am in my spiritual body and with Jesus and the Father for eternity. Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels and then he shall reward every man according to his works.Isn't this works the keeping of the commandments?The verses you spoke of in Acts are speaking of new Christians, babes, that as they grew and are learned the Torah were probably led of the Holy Spirit to do good works .Thank you for your kindness...that is a good work and also keeping the commandments. It is written on the heart by the Holy Spirit and in Torah by him also.
     
  10. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    N2 as always a great study... I am praying that many who need to know Christ will read those words and pray that prayer. It reminds me of what we all are to be here for, not arguments or one up manship , not to prove we are more righteous, or more studied in the Word. But to bring edification to one another, to love one another and most of all the further the gospel and expand the Kingdom.
     
  11. kendal

    kendal New Member

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    It's simple."Be ye therefore perfect" Mat 5:48 Jesus asks us to be perfect, in John 14:15 He says if you love Me keep My commandments.The commandments have always been the same, written by Jesus with His finger in stone, given to Moses, the great law of liberty the 10 commandments.We are not justified by the works of the law, but when we accept Christ, we are justified by His death, or in other words we are accepted as holy because of what HE ALONE has done for us. The law only justifies those who have not broken it, like Christ himself. Since we have sinned, we can never ever ever of ourselves enter heaven, we still have to pay that fine (or wage - Rom 6:23) which is death, but Christ paid it for us. But the Bible is clear that we are not to continue sinning, grace is forgiveness, not an excuse to sin. Rom 6:1,2 God Forbid should we keep sinning!!! The Gospel is obedience and forgiveness, man cannot obey the law of God of himself, he needs a power (The Holy Ghost) working in him both to will and to do.Sin is transgression of God's law. Everytime we sin, we are rebelling against God's heavenly government as did Satan. Sin is a choice, Jesus did not use any of His own divine power to overcome sin, or He could not be our substitute, he relied soley on the power and faith given him by His Father by the indwelling of the Holy Ghost, He could only use the power in reach of every one of us.When it comes down to it, we need to surrender to God, and allow Him to work in us, too often we realise that sin kills Jesus afresh everytime we do it, and we try to work to save ourselves. But it is easy, trust God, He has promised to take care of you, surrender your whole heart, and He will help you obey.God bless!!
     
  12. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Do you mean to say kendal, justified by His resurrection? Can you be 'perfect'? If so, in what way can you be 'perfect'? What does it mean, Biblically, to be 'perfect'?Also, who did Christ say He came for? Is it all people, or His people who are Israelites? What did He say, and should we alter that to mean something else? I am merely asking that we think about the verses, who they are written to, and why. For example, when the Lord says to His disciples to go not into the way of the gentiles, are we to then somehow believe otherwise, that He sent His apostles to the nations? or that they disobeyed the Lord and went to the nations anyways?Surely we must be careful to not join what the Lord has made separate.So we have this Syrophenician woman, in the greatest of need to be sure, and our Blessed Lord and Saviour. She is asking Him to help her. And what is His answer?'He answered her not a word'. But when He did answer her, He said, 'I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel', then He called her a dog.THIS IS OUR BELOVED SAVIOUR. Are we to ignore this in favour of teachings which sound good to us, even in the event that what sounds good is not what is written?We are instructed that we must rightly divide the word of truth. What does this mean (rhetorical).
     
  13. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    The key is that works come through faith. Saying simply that "I have the faith." is not enough. I could quote some verses here but they have already been covered in this thread. Think of works as an extension (of sorts) of faith. If you truly believe Him and His Word, then you'll do it (His Word). I'll tie together some of the slight "disagreement" here - and I use that term very lightly. We have been removed from the bondage of the law yes, but in the sense that we are not condemned to follow the law and do what the law says instead of what God says. God gave us the law so that we could love him, not so that we would just follow the law. It's just like what he said in Hosea 6:6: For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.
     
  14. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    I can readily agree that faith alone is not enough. It must be faith in something specific. One cannot have faith in nothing, or a blind faith, faith must rest upon some foundation. I believe the Bible is replete with example showing that we cannot have both law and grace, it is to choose law over Christ, or Christ over the all things. That is the option. And any glory given to something or someone other than Christ, we find that the god of this world has his hand in that.We really only need commit to the highest, and that is Christ and what has been done for us. And that finds an inward expression desirous to spread this good news. The goal while in the flesh is Christ doing the work, walking with our feet and speaking with our mouths. This is the example of the apostles, Christ being the greatest apostle. So we have His words, and we come to share these with others. This is an example of Christ quickening some even now.When the law obtained you could measure a man's faith by his goods, because God rewarded His people with earthly things at that time. Today this does not apply. A wealthy man may have ill gotten gains, whereas one walking a worthy walk may be monetarily poor. The law as given to Israel has an owner, and the owner have been given further instructions pertaining to their laws. We too have been given further instruction.In the final Acts period letter, the inspired apostle, Paul, writes in Romans 9:3-5 to "my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh: Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises; Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen. Paul speaks to his own kinsmen of the flesh, who are Jews, and right on up through to the end of the Acts here, the law still belongs to Israel, for the hope of Israel is Paul bound with this chain.Noteworthy is that the above refers to a specific adoption made up of Paul's kinsmen of the flesh, which is only one of three. We can find that there are three adoptions, that is to say that by adoption is one put in the place of a firstborn son. Each adoption corresponds to a specific sphere, or place of blessing. There are not two firstborn by adoption inhabiting the same sphere of blessing ~ not Biblically. So it would not figure that the Bible reveals that all have the same blessings, and indeed, the Bible does not reveal that they do. Instead we find that some are blessed on the earth, while others are blessed in the New Jerusalem which comes down to the earth, while still yet another company is blessed with Christ in the heavenly places, and are even seen seated with Him there in potentiality at the time now present. One thing we must do, if we are to rightly divide the word of truth, is to seek to discover what is truth for today, knowing the great privilege it is for us to be able to read some of God's other people's letters while maintaining a walk that falls within those letters written particularly and peculiarly to us at this present time.It will be noted in Col. 2 that circumcision (the law) of the flesh is compared to baptism, wherein this company of believers are risen above these things of the flesh, and that this is not by the law, but by the faith of the operation of God ~11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein * also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.In otherwords, Paul has been explaining since Eph 1, that this company enjoys a positionally higher calling than those previously called, and that the members of this company can enjoy a quickening of their spirit even now. This calling is said to be far above all in the heavenly places. Being seated with Him there is such a glorious and high calling that once it is discovered one cannot help but desire to walk that worthy walk and join the apostle in prosecuting Ephesians 3:9.* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
  15. betchevy

    betchevy New Member

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    Jesus did not call the Syrophonecian woman a dog...He said he came for is own people...She said " the even the dogs get crumbs from the table" an analogy and Christ did heal her daughter. I am concerned about the business of holding rank or having "positionally higher calling" Christ died for all people. I am reminded of the story he told of the dinner and how its was better to be asked to move to a better seat, than to be asked to be move to a lesser seat. Humilty is never a bad idea.
     
  16. epouraniois

    epouraniois Guest

    Sure He did. Gentiles are still called dogs to this day by Jews in the synagogue. On top of this, women are lumped in the same lump. The woman knew it, and the Lord knew gentiles were but dogs without the camp. And if we miss this, we miss the point entirely.The Lord Jesus gave this woman an opening though, using the word in the diminutive, meaning little puppy dog, which she immediately took advantage of, saying how even puppy dogs get the crumbs that fall from the table. She was fully aware of His having called her a dog.The way things worked at that time, was that the Jews permitted puppy dogs inside for about 2 months, but after that, they were no longer loved, no longer given scraps from the table. They became pack animals, and were cast out just as they perceived the gentiles to be. Cast out into darkness. Psalm 22 speaks of gentiles being round about Jehovah, and they are called dogs there too.So this gentile dog of a woman was given the crumbs off Israel's table. The Lord healed her child. But not while she was calling Him by His Jewish name, not while she called Him the Son of David. It was only when she called Him by His title, Lord, that He responded to her at all, and when He did, He told her why He was SENT. He said, I am not sent but to the lost...Israel.It's an incredible story really. How many people today do not yet put Christ the Lord in His proper position far above all? How many today irreverently call Him by His first name only, giving Him no title at all? How many people today call our Lord and Saviour by the name of Jesus, as the demons do (Matt. 8:29), or as His enemies do(app 98 of CB)?
    I am concerned about the business of holding rank or having "positionally higher calling died for all people. I am reminded of the story he told of the dinner and how its was better to be asked to move to a better seat, than to be asked to be move to a lesser seat. Humilty is never a bad idea.
    It is The Lord's revelation. It does not speak so much of 'rank'. Sorry if it came out that way, on the other hand, God's chosen people, the Jews, are blessed in rank, before the gentiles on the earth, the gentle throughout the OT does not hold the same position as Israel, nor do they throughout the Acts, for there, we read, it is to the Jew first, and also to the gentiles. And while the gentile was permitted to sit at Israel's table, it was still Israel's table. The apostle puts that the gentile was graphed into the true tree, the gentile was graphed in contrary to nature, and only for the point of provoking Israel. All this was, of course, in fulfillment of prophecy.The word "positionally", as I have used it, refers not to a better group of believers (there are none righteous, no not one), but to the PLACE of position, the heavenly places being positionally above the earth, that is to say, the heavens are higher than the earth, they are not below the earth. Read the first three chapters of Ephesians, that is where Paul lays this bear.The church revealed in the wilderness have earthy blessings. The church revealed at Pentecost were to receive the kingdom and take the knowledge of the Lord to all the nations, overcomers, listed with faithful Abraham in Hebrews, while the church revealed after Acts concluded have every blessing which is spiritual none withheld (shows the Greek) in heavenly places, the hope of this calling being 'saints in light', elsewhere translated 'the holiest of all'. Should we not believe it?Bullinger writes in app. 193 "Paul was not commissioned to put in writing the "purpose" of God which was "before the overthrow of the world" (Ap. 146), until that dispensation (of promise) was ended. What this "great secret" was can only be learned fully from the Prison Epistles."In the verse below, we see that Christ ascended to a position "far above all heavens", and this position is higher than the earth. The heavens are not lower than the earth, nor are they on the same plane as the earth, which is positionally lower than the heavens ~ Eph 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? Eph 4:10 He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Heavenly places are mentioned only five times in Scripture, they have to do with Christ and with 'the church which is His body, the fulness of Him that filleth all in all". And what a glourious and unique title this is!You won't find people blessed in heavenly places in the church of the wilderness (chosen since the foundation of the world-Matt.25), nor in the church during Acts, called 'the church of God', you will only find them after Acts where, Paul says, he is given a new revelation called 'the mystery' (chosen before the foundation of the world-Eph. 1). Paul also said that all the believers in Asia turned away from these teachings, nevertheless, Paul is revealing something new ~Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ Eph 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places, Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ JesusEph 3:10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of GodEph 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in heavenly places.* ‘The earth’ (Matt. 5:5)The Kingdom* ‘Jerusalem which is above’ (Gal. 4:26)The Bride* ‘In heavenly places’ (Eph. 1:3)The Body
     
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