Scriptural Balance

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,


That's the main thing I was saying.

I do not believe 'the old man' abides within those who have been grafted into Christ's death and resurrection, Romans 6:6, although for those who claim a relationship with Christ in biblical language, yet still believe their 'old man' still abides within, very possibly, he does, as they have failed to lay hold of the mechanism provided by God, whereby they may experience his death.

You're still alive right? This is so contradictory: your old man is dead, but you are still alive? hmmm...

When you sin, where does that come from? Don't tell me that it's just a decision you make and you pull it out of thin air. Sin doesn't come from a vacuum. Whether you believe in the old man or not, you still sin, and it does come from within you. I would say the old man is a good candidate for that role.

I'm having a hard time understanding how people can sin without a sinful nature. Very strange.

 

[dragonfly]

I'm having a hard time understanding how people can sin without a sinful nature. Very strange.

Well, I'm not surprised you're having difficulty. You have asked for very short posts, and it's unknown whether you read long posts which give a full picture. And because you have your own theology all worked out, you seem unable to reconsider any point at all.

For instance, how can you say the body cannot come into God's presence?

Where do you think God is, when you pray, for instance? Or don't you enter His presence when you pray? You don't leave your body, I'm sure.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Well, I'm not surprised you're having difficulty. You have asked for very short posts, and it's unknown whether you read long posts which give a full picture. And because you have your own theology all worked out, you seem unable to reconsider any point at all.

For instance, how can you say the body cannot come into God's presence?

Where do you think God is, when you pray, for instance? Or don't you enter His presence when you pray? You don't leave your body, I'm sure.

I am very open to ideas, but so far no one can explain it in a simple way that the holy spirit bears witness with. And I am now convinced that is because it isn't the truth. The truth is simple, and when something is right the holy spirit bears witness. That's how we know what is truth and what isn't. Your philosophy, on the other hand, only works in long, drawn out elaborations that seduce the carnal mind.

The body cannot enter GOD's presence, and never will in its current form, due to it being defiled with sin.

GOD is in the holy of holies; you are on earth. Two very different places. You enter his presence through his spirit, but your body is not in the holy place.

 

[Axehead]

You're still alive right? This is so contradictory: your old man is dead, but you are still alive? hmmm...

When you sin, where does that come from? Don't tell me that it's just a decision you make and you pull it out of thin air. Sin doesn't come from a vacuum. Whether you believe in the old man or not, you still sin, and it does come from within you. I would say the old man is a good candidate for that role.

I'm having a hard time understanding how people can sin without a sinful nature. Very strange.

Hi CRD,

I'll keep it short.

Where did Adam and Eve's sin come from? Did it come from their "sinful nature", their "old man"? (Did they have an "old man"?) Or did it come from knowledge (lies) and their decision (choice) to lust for that knowledge? Where did this knowledge come from? Did it come from them or was it from the Tempter?

Now, for those with a NEW MAN, old man is dead, right? Is that what your Bible says?

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Crucified means dead, right? When Jesus was crucified, was He buried alive or was His body dead? So crucified (past tense) pretty much means DEAD! In fact, it does mean DEAD.

If you are not sure about Romans 6:6 - THEN we have Rom_6:7 for added emphasis. "For he that is dead is freed from sin."

Are you dead? Have you been freed from sin? The Bible says, "if we are dead, we are freed from sin". Well, we are alive still so it must be alluding to something spiritual, right? Paul is talking about the 'old man" in Romans 6:6. "...our old man is crucified..."

To be "in Christ" our old man must be crucified and dead. We are now new creatures.

2Co_5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.


So, now when you sin, is it the old man that is sinning? Wasn't he crucified? If you have the NEW MAN, then Roman 6:6 must be true for you. But the New Man does not sin, does he?

So, now go back to my first sentence.

Axehead

 

[Rex]

Yep,,, and every thing else falls under "christian" demon possession, just something you and DF agree about as well

 

[Axehead]

Yep,,, and every thing else falls under "christian" demon possession, just something you and DF agree about as well

We have never said "demon possession". The name of that thread is "Can Demons Inhabit Christians".

I was really hoping you would consider what I just said rather than getting off on a tangent.

CRD says, "how can Christians sin without a sinful nature"?

Simple, the same way Adam and Eve sinned, without a sinful nature.

How do you think Adam and Eve were able to sin?

 

[Rex]

We have never said "demon possession". The name of that thread is "Can Demons Inhabit Christians".

I was really hoping you would consider what I just said rather than getting off on a tangent.

CRD says, "how can Christians sin without a sinful nature"?

Simple, the same way Adam and Eve sinned, without a sinful nature.

How do you think Adam and Eve were able to sin?

Haven't you read, Eve was beguiled before she ate and knew good and evil, and gave it to Adam, you can dream up all the details you like.
I don't recall a sin nature being mentioned, especially before they sinned and cast all of mankind into a sentence of death. Sin wasn't even mentioned until Gen 4:7 but death "die" was mentioned several times once in Gen 2:17 and twice in Gen 3:3-4

sin wasn't even known by Adam and Eve before they ate, how could they know sin if they didn't know good and evil? Gen 2:17
and your telling people they were created with a sin nature? before they knew the difference between good and evil, to support your argument?
God never said the day you sin you will die, would Adam have understood sin? not knowing good and evil? God said the day you eat you will die.

Did Jesus come to eliminate the sin nature everyone is so hung up on? No, he came to overcome DEATH
Now If by Adam all men were condemned to death Romans 5:18 then this verse makes perfect sense 1 Cor 15:56 why because death came first just as it says in Gen. And that's the order Paul lays out as well in Romans 5. Notice the sequence first death then judgment THEN disobedience or sin.

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

1 Cor 15:56
56 The sting of death --> is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Were all condemned to death by Adam which results in sin or being sinners. The sting of death is sin
Do you understand and see? sin was the result of death, not sin resulted in death. The sentence of separation from God, death, resulted in sin, we are all born sentenced to death because of Adam, not some dreamed up sin nature.

Romans 7:24
And who will rescue me from this body of death Romans

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I'll keep it short.

Where did Adam and Eve's sin come from? Did it come from their "sinful nature", their "old man"? (Did they have an "old man"?) Or did it come from knowledge (lies) and their decision (choice) to lust for that knowledge? Where did this knowledge come from? Did it come from them or was it from the Tempter?

Thanks for keeping it short. Long posts are so hard to respond to due to the format of this forum.

Adam and Eve chose to not do GOD's will. Satan deceived Eve to make that decision using her carnal mind; Adam chose to follow Eve (IMO out of love for her). When they disobeyed GOD they knew evil, i.e., they became one with evil because they knew sin in the loins of their minds. They became one spirit with sin just as a man and woman become one flesh when they carnally know each other. Their disobedience was their sin for which they became liable, but their defilement was of the tempter because he is sin. This was the nature of their iniquity (the old man) that has been passed from generation to generation.

Why was it passed? It is impossible for any creature of GOD to sire offspring contrary to its nature. Adam's nature consisted of a body, soul and spirit that had become one with sin; his children inherited his defiled nature because they were made in his image. It would have been impossible for Adam to have sired a child having a spirit not one with sin. On the other hand, Christ did not receive a defiled spirit because he received his inheritance from GOD, not Adam.

Another way to look at this is understanding the nature of sin. Sin is defined as not doing GOD's will. Adam was one spirit with sin, and therefore separated from GOD. This condition was now his nature, that no act of his will could overcome. As a natural man, without being one with GOD he could not know GOD's will perfectly; and therefore wasn't able to do the will of GOD perfectly. He was, therefore, by his very nature a sinner.

This is why men's life spans progressively grew shorter as time moved them away from the revelation of the garden (perfect knowledge of GOD); and dramatically so after the flood that became a great wall of separation between man and the knowledge of GOD. This decrease in longevity shows that mankind's knowledge of GOD decreased; and with that loss, the ability to do GOD's will also decreased. Man's inherent condition, or nature, as imposed by GOD caused this. Mankind became the prisoner of its own sinful nature.

So, now when you sin, is it the old man that is sinning? Wasn't he crucified? If you have the NEW MAN, then Roman 6:6 must be true for you. But the New Man does not sin, does he?

The reality is that all of us in Christ are carrying around a corpse that will be with us until death. GOD's love has been perfected in us by creating the new man, but the fact is we are not yet perfect; we are being perfected. Therefore, being imperfect we are unable by our very nature (or condition) to perfectly do the will of GOD. That makes us sinners by definition. We are suffering from the residual effects of Adam's sin.

Those who think they are perfect and sinless are deluded (1 John 1:8). Common sense alone tells us that. People who have cultist tendencies (like Dan Scott, IMO) are teaching a relativistic moral philosophy that creates the illusion of purity by diminishing the awareness of sin via lowering the threshold definition of sin (or changing it altogether to mean not adhering to the teachings of the cult). Yet the fact is anything not of faith is sin. Is your faith perfect? If not, by definition you are a sinner.

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

NetChaplain, you ignore the plain rendering of the text in your vain attempt to explain it away.

John doesn't say anything about some "new nature" not being able to sin while the "new man" still actually does. That is nonsense. You might as well be a Gnostic if you believe that because that is EXACTLY what they taught, they taught the deeds of the flesh are disconnected from the inward man.

John specifically uses the terms "Manifest" and "Doeth" to make sure that his readers clearly understand that outward conduct is a revelation of the inward state.

You are trying to appeal to Rom 7:14-25 to refute this contention by ascribing "manifest unrighteous" as not being the revelation of an "inward unrighteousness."

You are just deceiving yourself and attempting to deceive others into believe that one can WALK in unrighteousness and yet REMAIN justified. It simply is not true.

Rom 7:14-25 is Paul giving the illustration of an unredeemed man who is under conviction. The unredeemed man agrees that the law is good whilst he continues to do that which he is bondage to. Jesus Christ did not come to set you free and leave you a slave as you insist.


1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.




You believe the same thing as NetChaplain.

Basically your doctrine consists of getting saved IN sin and then a life long process of gradually sinning less. Thus under your system a man is SERVING sin and righteousness.

Paul said this...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

Serving is in what you do. If you engage in sin then you are the servant of sin.

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Jesus came to set us free from the service of sin.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Any person whom is still engaging in sin has simply not been set free. We are a slave to whom we obey, if we obey sin then we are the slave of sin and the wrath of God abides over the children of disobedience.

If we have crucified the flesh with the passions and desires (which draw people into sin Rom 1:14-15) and thus walk in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ then we are not under condemnation. If we have not done this then we are still under the curse of the law and are beheld by death.

We have to die to sin.

You said:

Rom 7:14-25 is Paul giving the illustration of an unredeemed man who is under conviction. The unredeemed man agrees that the law is good whilst he continues to do that which he is bondage to. Jesus Christ did not come to set you free and leave you a slave as you insist.


I say:

​The unregenerate man has NO desire for the law of God and there are ample scriptures to prove it.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Haven't you read, Eve was beguiled before she ate and knew good and evil, and gave it to Adam,...

BINGO! That's it. Iniquity was found in them before they chose to sin. Eve was deceived by the lusts of the flesh, and Adam loved his wife more than GOD. Christ said that whoever entertains sin in their mind has already committed the act. Adam and Eve corrupted their nature through the lusts of the flesh.

 

[Axehead]

Haven't you read, Eve was beguiled before she ate and knew good and evil, and gave it to Adam, you can dream up all the details you like.
I don't recall a sin nature being mentioned, especially before they sinned and cast all of mankind into a sentence of death. Sin wasn't even mentioned until Gen 4:7 but death "die" was mentioned several times once in Gen 2:17 and twice in Gen 3:3-4

sin wasn't even known by Adam and Eve before they ate, how could they know sin if they didn't know good and evil? Gen 2:17
and your telling people they were created with a sin nature? before they knew the difference between good and evil, to support your argument?
God never said the day you sin you will die, would Adam have understood sin? not knowing good and evil? God said the day you eat you will die.

Did Jesus come to eliminate the sin nature everyone is so hung up on? No, he came to overcome DEATH
Now If by Adam all men were condemned to death Romans 5:18 then this verse makes perfect sense 1 Cor 15:56 why because death came first just as it says in Gen. And that's the order Paul lays out as well in Romans 5. Notice the sequence first death then judgment THEN disobedience or sin.

17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.
19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

1 Cor 15:56
56 The sting of death --> is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Were all condemned to death by Adam which results in sin or being sinners. The sting of death is sin
Do you understand and see? sin was the result of death, not sin resulted in death. The sentence of separation from God, death, resulted in sin, we are all born sentenced to death because of Adam, not some dreamed up sin nature.

Romans 7:24
And who will rescue me from this body of death Romans

Rex,

I'm not sure who you are speaking to. My point was that Adam and Eve DID NOT have a sin nature.

Thanks for keeping it short. Long posts are so hard to respond to due to the format of this forum.

Adam and Eve chose to not do GOD's will. Satan deceived Eve to make that decision using her carnal mind; Adam chose to follow Eve (IMO out of love for her). When they disobeyed GOD they knew evil, i.e., they became one with evil because they knew sin in the loins of their minds. They became one spirit with sin just as a man and woman become one flesh when they carnally know each other. Their disobedience was their sin for which they became liable, but their defilement was of the tempter because he is sin. This was the nature of their iniquity (the old man) that has been passed from generation to generation.

Why was it passed? It is impossible for any creature of GOD to sire offspring contrary to its nature. Adam's nature consisted of a body, soul and spirit that had become one with sin; his children inherited his defiled nature because they were made in his image. It would have been impossible for Adam to have sired a child having a spirit not one with sin. On the other hand, Christ did not receive a defiled spirit because he received his inheritance from GOD, not Adam.

Another way to look at this is understanding the nature of sin. Sin is defined as not doing GOD's will. Adam was one spirit with sin, and therefore separated from GOD. This condition was now his nature, that no act of his will could overcome. As a natural man, without being one with GOD he could not know GOD's will perfectly; and therefore wasn't able to do the will of GOD perfectly. He was, therefore, by his very nature a sinner.

This is why men's life spans progressively grew shorter as time moved them away from the revelation of the garden (perfect knowledge of GOD); and dramatically so after the flood that became a great wall of separation between man and the knowledge of GOD. This decrease in longevity shows that mankind's knowledge of GOD decreased; and with that loss, the ability to do GOD's will also decreased. Man's inherent condition, or nature, as imposed by GOD caused this. Mankind became the prisoner of its own sinful nature.


The reality is that all of us in Christ are carrying around a corpse that will be with us until death. GOD's love has been perfected in us by creating the new man, but the fact is we are not yet perfect; we are being perfected. Therefore, being imperfect we are unable by our very nature (or condition) to perfectly do the will of GOD. That makes us sinners by definition. We are suffering from the residual effects of Adam's sin.

Those who think they are perfect and sinless are deluded (1 John 1:8). Common sense alone tells us that. People who have cultist tendencies (like Dan Scott, IMO) are teaching a relativistic moral philosophy that creates the illusion of purity by diminishing the awareness of sin via lowering the threshold definition of sin (or changing it altogether to mean not adhering to the teachings of the cult). Yet the fact is anything not of faith is sin. Is your faith perfect? If not, by definition you are a sinner.

I don't believe Scott and dragonfly are talking about being "perfect" and "sinless". How do you get that?

If being "beguiled" sin or acting upon the beguilement/deception?

"the serpent beguiled me AND I did eat".

Gen_3:13 And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat.

Who beguiled Eve? What did she DO without a sin nature? She sinned. She disobeyed the Lord. She chose to give in to the lusts of her flesh, the lust of her eyes and the pride of life.

Here we have a case of someone sinning who does not have an "old man" / "sin nature".

Haven't you guys been saying that in order to sin you must have a sin nature?

 

[dragonfly]

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,

Please think about this:


if someone lies to you, have you sinned?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

I don't believe Scott and dragonfly are talking about being "perfect" and "sinless". How do you get that?

If being "beguiled" sin or acting upon the beguilement/deception?
Who beguiled Eve? What did she DO without a sin nature? She sinned. She disobeyed the Lord. She chose to give in to the lusts of her flesh, the lust of her eyes and the pride of life.
Here we have a case of someone sinning who does not have an "old man" / "sin nature".
Haven't you guys been saying that in order to sin you must have a sin nature?

Eve corrupted herself by allowing herself to be deceived; Adam corrupted himself by loving his wife more than GOD. That's why they sinned, because they had corrupted themselves.

It's impossible to sin without a corrupted nature.

Hi ChristRoseFromTheDead,
Please think about this:
if someone lies to you, have you sinned?

Of course not. But because Eve believed satan and allowed herself to be deceived, she corrupted herself. From that corrupted nature she sinned.

You guys are just trying to believe that sin is just a moral choice without dealing with the cause. Until you deal with the cause, you will never fully overcome sin.

 

[dragonfly]

You guys are just trying to believe that sin is just a moral choice without dealing with the cause. Until you deal with the cause, you will never fully overcome sin.

Not at all!

God didn't say they would die for considering the serpent's temptation. He said they would die if they ate the fruit.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

Not at all!

God didn't say they would die for considering the serpent's temptation. He said they would die if they ate the fruit.

But she ate the fruit because she corrupted herself. Unless corruption is dealt with, sin will occur again. The corruption is dealt with by acknowledging it, not denying it and trying to hide it.

 

[Episkopos]

Sin has a lot to do with location. When we are outside of God's presence we tend to sin because of weakness. When a person does not know the Lord, they tend to sin continually...due to their ignorance of any other location than being where they presently are.

We know that when we are in Christ we do not sin. Hence the location/sin connection.

Adam sinned IN the location called the garden of Eden where He has a constant access to God's presence. Not only that, he decided to hide his transgression. He was then banished from that location into a place where sin came more "naturally."

So we all inherit this location outside of God's presence because of Adam. We can call this location...the place where it is natural to sin..thus giving rise to the "sin nature" inherent among men who do not know the Lord.

When we are born in the Spirit and made aware of God and WHERE He is...we change locations (translated into the kingdom of His Son) in order to come out of the place where sin comes naturally. We receive a new nature by being in a new place. We now have the same access to the Father that Adam had. Christ is become our Eden. If one seeks to disobey God and then deny it while in Christ...he is re-enacting the same cause for banishment that Adam did.

While in the past we sinned because we knew of no other option based on our location outside of God....in ignorance as it were...we now are held MORE accountable for every thought and deed. These must be made to reflect our current location. Can we deny where we are?

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

E, I concur. The weakness that you mentioned is the residual effect of Adam's sin that we must carry around with us until we die. That is our condition. I would also add that I think when we are out GOD's presence we DO sin (not tend to), for whatever is not of faith is sin.

 

[Episkopos]

E, I concur. The weakness that you mentioned is the residual effect of Adam's sin that we must carry around with us until we die. That is our condition. I would also add that I think when we are out GOD's presence we DO sin (not tend to), for whatever is not of faith is sin.

When a Christian is outside of God's presence he can still walk by faith knowing that the light is there even if he doesn't experience the light directly. God will take away the feeling of His presence from us to test our faith. We tend to sin because we usually lack the faith to act AS IF we know that God IS there. So then our faith actually kicks in the more...like a battery that has been charged by the light of God. Faith is like we soak in His presence with solar panels so that we can go a ways...further and further with maturity ...still completely dependent on Him.

It is those who have never known Him that will sin continuously since they live from themselves.....hence neither the presence of God NOR faith that He is there.