Scriptural Balance

[Rex]

I believe you're right on this DF because of the words "in the likeness" or, in the appearance.

J Gill- "In a word, this sending of the Son designs the manifestation of Him in human nature, as appears from the form and manner in which he was sent, "in the likeness of sinful flesh"; which expresses the reality of His incarnation of His having a true real human nature.

Which though it looked like a sinful nature, yet was not sinful: the likeness of it denotes the outward appearance of Christ in it, who was born of a sinful woman and was subject to the infirmities of human nature, which though not sinful are the effects of sin. He was reckoned among transgressors and was traduced as one Himself by men."

The way one lives and esp. the way one behaves towards others (love) is a good indicator whether or not they are in Christ, because "every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God" (1 John 4:7).

You don't see these verse as indicating he shared the same flesh as mankind? Hebrews Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren,
I would hate to contradict J Gill but it appears the NT writers have.

Your explanation or reading of these verses If you don't mind, my explanation of the verse you use is Jesus had no earthly father he certainly was like no one else, but he had an earthly mother, so did she not share in the nature of all mankind as well, the RCC will tell you she didn't.

Hebrews 2:16-18 KJV
He took on him the seed of Abraham
Hebrews 2:14 KJV

Or
Romans 1:3 KJV
which was made with the seed of David according to the flesh

You should take note of 1 John 4:3 KJV
The RCC has Mary so dolled up in being sinless and born of immaculate conception to make it impossible for Jesus to have shared in the likeness of men, come in the flesh as John says. Which is a teaching of AC.


Matthew 1:1

 

[Episkopos]

Your sin nature hasn't gone anywhere, E. As much as you'd like to deny it, you are still in a corrupted body that can and will sin if given the chance.

First...the sin nature and the human body are different things...like a computer and an operating system aren't the same. The old sin nature is like an old operating system that has been corrupted. Being born again in the Spirit gives one a new operating system....but the old one must first be uninstalled by the cross of Christ. Having a new operating system is of no use unless the old one is first uninstalled. That is where your problem lies...

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

First...the sin nature and the human body are different things...like a computer and an operating system aren't the same. The old sin nature is like an old operating system that has been corrupted. Being born again in the Spirit gives one a new operating system....but the old one must first be uninstalled by the cross of Christ. Having a new operating system is of no use unless the old one is first uninstalled. That is where your problem lies...

You are in extreme denial, and your analogy is only partly correct. You have not been given a new operating system; it is being renewed. You are not perfect; you are being perfected. Big difference. Also, you cannot separate the sin nature from the body; the mind and flesh are one. Separating them reeks of gnosticism.

 

[Episkopos]

You are in extreme denial, and your analogy is only partly correct. You have not been given a new operating system; it is being renewed. You are not perfect; you are being perfected. Big difference. Also, you cannot separate the sin nature from the body; the mind and flesh are one. Separating them reeks of gnosticism.

You are here confusing the heart with the mind. The mind can be the tool of Satan unless it is brought into submission by the will of the one having the mind. The thoughts that defile weak consciences don't originate with the believer in Christ...they are an assault...a temptation...the same as Adam and Eve had in the perfection of the garden. You can have a pure mind and still receive temptation. Jesus did!!! So don't confuse a temptation with an operating system...that is a wicked lie from the enemy that most Christians fall for...thus denying the power of Christ. The thoughts are to be made CAPTIVE to Christ. Temptations can be overcome. A renewed mind begins when we realize that we are aliens and strangers on this earth. The former affiliations with and affections to this planet are gone...we owe allegiance to a New Master. We are an invading force from another World. (I am using sci-fi illustrations but the truth is there)

1Pe 2:11 Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, (some translations say ALIENS) abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;
1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by your good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation (episkope).

 

[ScottAU]

You are in extreme denial, and your analogy is only partly correct. You have not been given a new operating system; it is being renewed. You are not perfect; you are being perfected. Big difference. Also, you cannot separate the sin nature from the body; the mind and flesh are one. Separating them reeks of gnosticism.

Where does the Bible teach "sin nature'?

The NIV translates SARX (meaning flesh) in several passages as "sin nature" but that is a biased translation due to preconceived dogma. SARX means "flesh" not "sin nature."

Ephesians 2:3 refers to "nature."

Eph 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Strongs Concordance
Nature - G5449 - phusis
From G5453; growth (by germination or expansion), that is, (by implication) natural production (lineal descent); by extension a genus or sort; figuratively native disposition, constitution or usage: - ([man-]) kind, nature ([-al]).

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
c. a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature: ἦμεν φύσει τέκνα ὀργῆς, by (our depraved) nature we were exposed to the wrath of God, Ephesians 2:3 (this meaning is evident from the preceding context, and stands in contrast with the change of heart and life wrought through Christ by the blessing of divine grace; φύσει πρός τάς κολασεις ἐπιεικῶς ἔχουσιν οἱ Φαρισαῖοι, Josephus, Antiquities 13, 10, 6. (Others (see Meyer) would lay more stress here upon the constitution in which this 'habitual course of evil' has its origin, whether that constitution be regarded (with some) as already developed at birth, or (better) as undeveloped; cf. Aristotle, pol. 1, 2, p. 1252{b}, 32f οἷον ἕκαστον ἐστι τῆς γενέσεως τελεσθεισης, ταύτην φαμέν τήν φύσιν εἶναι ἑκάστου, ὥσπερ ἀνθρώπου, etc.; see the examples in Bonitz's index under the word. Cf. Winers Grammar, § 31, 6a.)).



The Gnostics taught that the flesh in and of itself was evil because matter suppressed the light of the soul. Thus a soul was trapped in the corruption of matter. This is why the Gnostics separated "deeds" from the "condition of the soul" in their philosophy. For they viewed that the light of the soul would always be suppressed so long as it was trapped in a flesh body. The Manichaean philosophical system was built upon this foundation in that they believed that the material world was evil whilst the spiritual world was good. These two worlds struggled against each other and the human soul was caught in this struggle due to being trapped in the material plane, especially the flesh, the same as the Gnostics taught.

Augustine was schooled in the above philosophy for many years and it was Augustine who introduced the doctrine of Original Sin into Christian orthodoxy. The history on this is well documented. It was from this time that it became accepted among theologians (Catholic) that Adam's sin had somehow corrupted human nature and that sin was inherrent to the flesh body.

As I outlined above the Bible does not attach a "sin nature" to the flesh from birth but rather teaches that a natural disposition to sin develops through long practiced habit. Human beings sell themselves into bondage by CHOOSING to sin and the satisfaction of sin hardwires itself into the human brain. The human brain hardwires itself to sinning in that neurotransmitters like dopamine induce an addiction to pleasure, thus once a person gratifies themselves in a particular way that particular way becomes associated with a pathway formed in the brain and thus a craving develops.

Very obvious examples of this are pornography and cocain addiction. One is visually induced while the other is chemical yet the hardwiring which takes place is practically identical.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3050060/

I had great difficulty with my own colleagues when I suggested that a lot of addiction is the result of experience … repetitive, high-emotion, high-frequency experience. But it’s become clear that neuroadaptation—that is, changes in neural circuitry that help perpetuate the behavior—occurs even in the absence of drug-taking.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11691967


In other words there is a literal physical change in the human brain in response to sin. When a new believer comes into the faith the rebellion in the heart is purged through gody sorrow and repentance but the hardwired nature remains and this is why the "quickening of our moral bodies" is so key, in essense we are reprogammed in that our brain hardwires itself to the things of God. This is why our minds must be renewed in order to partake in the divine nature. Our spirits have already been renewed (if indeed we truly repented, were converted, and thus subsequently refreshed Act 3:19) and thus even though the body has the residual effects of sin addiction, the mind rules over these effects through the Spirit (for the flesh has been crucified with the passions and desires and brought into submission to Christ).

 

[Rex]

Scotty can you show where we gain total control over our bodies of flesh?

We all received the judgment of death "our bodies are condemned to die" that's what was passed from Adam, death

12 Therefore,
just as through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13 (For until the law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned
according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam, who is a type of
Him who was to come. 15 But the free gift is
not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much
more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus
Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For
if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more
those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness
will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

You will never change that condition or judgement, judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation

3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that
the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do
not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

If not your sin then Adams sin never the less it is dead

The body is dead it always has been since Adam sinned, there is no changing that fact, we are alive in the Spirit not the flesh.
We are told over and over again to resist the flesh we are never told we will have a complete victory over it. It condemned that what Jesus came to preserve us not our flesh.

11 But
if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He
who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal
bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

Verse 11 is not an indication life will be given to our mortal bodies, "who raised Christ from the dead" who raised Christ from his mortal body to put on immorality.
The death of the flesh has not been over come until the mortal puts on immortality.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— 52 in
a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the
trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we
shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. 54 So
when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put
on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is
written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.

Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom, it will always be contrary to the Spirit. Romans 7:23-24 Paul asks who will rescue me from this body of death?
You are never going to wiggle out of the result of sin being "death" that was placed upon all mankind's flesh Gen 2:17 we didn't get the sin nature we all got the sentence of death, Romans 5:18

Now show me the teaching that we over come death in our flesh, show me where the nature of our flesh is over come and I'll show you where we are instructed to resist it.

 

[Episkopos]

What we are born with is a life that is alienated from God. All that is not of faith is sin. Anything that comes from our own view of good and evil IS sin. So an independent life and judgment away from God IS the sin nature since ALL that is outside of God's presence is in NATURE sinful. Sinners LIVE from that life of sin. Through Adam came the break with God thus introducing sin as our natural inclination...our default life force. Through Christ we become reconnected to God by faith in Him.

When we are born from above we die to the old man...sin nature...and become dependent on God for His life. What is being crucified with Christ? Our old independent soul life that was lived in darkness. The sin nature lives in darkness. The new nature lives in light.

Of course the new life can only be brought forth through the death of the outer shell of the old nature. We continue in the new nature through the renewing of our minds in order to be conformed to Christ in our thoughts and actions.

 

[Rex]

Those who presumption that we can over come the sentence of death our flesh has received and live a prefect sinless life are only fooling themselves.
The temptation will always be present until the mortal puts on immortality.

We are told to be in the world but not a part of it, you can apply that to the flesh as well we are instructed to be in the flesh a new man but not submit to it.


It is not a sin nature it is the sentence of death we all received. We never see a sin nature spoken of being over come, the new inter man does not submit to the flesh that is commended to death. The flesh that can not inherit eternal life
Death
Death
Death
Death
Death
Is what is yet to be fully over come it will not be fully realized until to put on immortality.


If you can keep that death in mind you can then understand the law.
The law said that If you keeps these command you will live over come death. The law came so that Christ could over come the sentence death UNTO ALL MANKIND.


but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14 Nevertheless
death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those who had not sinned

according to the likeness of the transgression of Adam,

 

[Episkopos]

While the bible does not refer specifically to an old sin nature...it does give plenty of allusion to it...

Rom_6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.


Col_3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Eph_4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;



The NEW man is according to the new divine nature received at new birth.

Eph_4:24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

[IanLC]

Hebrews 12:14 "Follow peace with all men and live holy; for without HOLINESS NO MAN shall see the Lord"
This deals with both standing and state, believer and unbeliever, for darkness and light have no union, Jesus and belial have nothing in common. Holiness is God's commands!

 

[Netchaplain]

It is not a sin nature it is the sentence of death we all received. We never see a sin nature spoken of being over come,

Hi Rex - I believe you're close to what I'm sharing and would like to address your comments here.

You're correct that the body of the believer is still under "the law of sin and death", which is "the soul that sins shall die," but we also still posses the sin nature: "by one man's disobedience many were made sinners" (Rom 5:19). For the believer, the issue isn't sinning (unwillingly for the believer) or still having the sin nature (1 John 1:8). The issue is we are not guilty of these and are not controlled by them (Rom 6:12, 14).

It is not until we more fully understand the forgiveness of what God's Grace has brought that we will more and more realize the sin issue is no longer what the Father regards in us--unless we've yet to understand it has been fully dealt with and judged (Rom 8:3) thus, we never have to allow ourselves to feel judged, even though it's still there.

It takes some time for the believer to completely understand His forgiveness, which is fully supplied, even if we have not matured to this point. God doesn't save so that He can love us, He saves because He loves us.

I believe one of the primary causes of insecurity and lack of Scriptural understanding in a believer (even though they're unknowingly eternally secure, unless they're not born again) is due to not fully understanding God's forgiveness and that it is eternal.

 

[ScottAU]

Scotty can you show where we gain total control over our bodies of flesh?

We all received the judgment of death "our bodies are condemned to die" that's what was passed from Adam, death



You will never change that condition or judgement, judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation


The body is dead it always has been since Adam sinned, there is no changing that fact, we are alive in the Spirit not the flesh.
We are told over and over again to resist the flesh we are never told we will have a complete victory over it. It condemned that what Jesus came to preserve us not our flesh.

Verse 11 is not an indication life will be given to our mortal bodies, "who raised Christ from the dead" who raised Christ from his mortal body to put on immorality.
The death of the flesh has not been over come until the mortal puts on immortality.


Flesh and blood can not inherit the kingdom, it will always be contrary to the Spirit. Romans 7:23-24 Paul asks who will rescue me from this body of death?
You are never going to wiggle out of the result of sin being "death" that was placed upon all mankind's flesh Gen 2:17 we didn't get the sin nature we all got the sentence of death, Romans 5:18

Now show me the teaching that we over come death in our flesh, show me where the nature of our flesh is over come and I'll show you where we are instructed to resist it.

What I wrote had nothing to do with "corruptible flesh" and how our bodies will "physically die. Everything I wrote was in the context of "not letting sin reign in the mortal body" in that we "put to death the deeds of the body by the spirit" as well as how God quickens our mortal bodies in the sense that our brains become hardwired to God as we "yield to the Spirit."

Thus you are not responding to what I actually wrote but something else entirely.

The opening post in this thread is contending for "forensic salvation" apart from "heart purity." Thus a Christian can be actively engaged in immorality and yet be viewed as positionally righteousness.

Look at this quote,

Nearly all the false doctrines that teach some form of human works or merit for salvation are based upon Scriptures that deal with the believer’s state and have nothing to do with salvation at all. God’s Word would not be complete if it did not teach both the sinner how to be saved and the believer how to conduct himself after he is saved. Many of the difficulties in understanding the Scriptures would disappear if we would always ask: is this verse about our standing or our state?

This quote demonstrates that NetChaplain does not understand the difference between the "work of faith" (the dynamic of being a DOER of the word) and "human works apart from faith." In his mind there is no distinction made and thus he concludes that "not of works" means we DO NOTHING and that good works are only a fruit that comes AFTER salvation. Thus salvation in his mind is not connected to a present active state of abiding in Christ with a pure heart (which can only produce good fruit), rather salvation to him is purely a "forensic state" where one has "trusted in Jesus" and thus "waits" on God to do the work which will produce righteous conduct later down the road. This second view encompasses a double-mindedness, a mixing of light and darkness, whilst one is in Christ.

Thus due to the premise being in error everything else stacked on top of it is in error.

This is why he present 1Joh 1:8 in the context of a "present ongoing state of sinfulness" in a Christian when if that verse is read in context it is clearly a verse teaching that confession is necessary in order to walk in the light, in other words the context is repentance prior to being cleansed of all sin. When that verse is presented as a proof text for "ongoing sinfulness" it simply makes a mockery of the blood of Christ for it is a denial that the blood of Christ cleanses us from all sin and that we can be cleansed of all unrighteousness.

Basically the cleansing power of the blood is twisted into a "sin cloak" whereby God is "pretending" that the "saved sinner" is righteous whilst when he they are still in fact unrighteous.

Likewise NetChaplain references Col 2:10 as teaching "the perfect standing of the believer in Christ" in the context of this "abstract positional salvation." Yet if we look at that passage in context we find it is teachinbg no such thing...

Col 2:6 As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:
Col 2:7 Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
Col 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Col 3:1 If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.
Col 3:3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
Col 3:4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.
Col 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
Col 3:6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
Col 3:7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them. PAST TENSE.
Col 3:8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
Col 3:9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
Col 3:10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
Col 3:11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
Col 3:13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
Col 3:14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Col 3:15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.
Col 3:16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.
Col 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

Now you tell me how one can use 2 Col:10 as a proof text of this "positional" righteousness whilst one is still "with sin" (1Joh 1:8). Paul is teaching nothing of the sort, not even close. Yet people continue to pull isolated verses and insert them into "rhetoric" with which to deceive the simple.

There is pleny of ammunition in the Bible to hang oneself if one does not love the truth. Loving the truth does not mean maniipulating it to try and prove something "you want" to be true.

In Colossians Paul is teachign how a Christian is to live with them having put off the old man. NetChaplain took Col 2:10 and used is as proof of dualism. Cannot you or anybody else see that?

Look at this quote,

This blessed truth is brought out in Ephesians 2:6, “And hath raised us up together and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus.” But as far as his earthly state is concerned while he is waiting the home-call, the believer is admonished thus: “Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth” (Col 3:5). So we see that the believer is said to be both in heaven and on earth. “Standing and State” is the only explanation of this. Much more of the Word is given to instructions for the believer’s state than to his standing.

Again he is teaching dualism. That the "state of one's soul" is not necessarily aligned with the "actual conduct." That is GNOSTIC DUALISM dressed up in Christian terminology. The First Episitle of John absolutely exposes such teaching as heresy.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

These people will never quote passages like the one above. These people have to suppress passages like the one above, either ignore them or twist them somehow.

Ephesians 2:6 is in this context...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

It is not positional at all. It is ACTUAL and by the POWER OF GOD we NO LONGER SERVE SIN. That is what the Bible plainly states. Yet these false teachers will teach that "you will always be serving sin and that if you claim you don't then you are a liar" (1Joh 1:8). Thus what they are actually doing is this...

2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:6 For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
2Ti 3:8 Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.
2Ti 3:9 But they shall proceed no further: for their folly shall be manifest unto all men, as theirs also was.
2Ti 3:10 But thou hast fully known my doctrine, manner of life, purpose, faith, longsuffering, charity, patience,
2Ti 3:11 Persecutions, afflictions, which came unto me at Antioch, at Iconium, at Lystra; what persecutions I endured: but out of them all the Lord delivered me.
2Ti 3:12 Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
2Ti 3:13 But evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse, deceiving, and being deceived.
2Ti 3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
2Ti 3:15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Dig deep and believe the Scripture.

 

[Netchaplain]

This quote demonstrates that NetChaplain does not understand the difference between the "work of faith" (the dynamic of being a DOER of the word) and "human works apart from faith."

Clearly put, it all comes down to, "Is your faith in the works of Christ or the works of man?" There's nothing the believer has or can obtain through faith in the works of man because everything a believer has is in the works of Christ, esp. His virtues and attributes (holiness, righteousness, justification, etc.), which cannot be produced by any works of man and therefore is imputed to the believer from the works of Christ. You cannot have works of man and God, it's one or the other.

All of the "good works" which are evident from the believer that "glorify God" (Matt 5:16) are not from his life but are in his life by Christ's life, because now the Lord's life is the believer's life:

"Christ, who is our life" (Col 3:4); "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal 2:20).

The good works from us are due to the continuous works of the Father, in which He continually causes us to desire His will over all: "It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13).

It's all by Christ using us, not by us using His help.

In his mind there is no distinction made and thus he concludes that "not of works" means we DO NOTHING and that good works are only a fruit that comes AFTER salvation.

"Not of works" (Eph 2:8) means not of man's works, because it is of the works of Christ.

Again he is teaching dualism. That the "state of one's soul" is not necessarily aligned with the "actual conduct."

The condition of the believer's soul is sinless but the nature of his soul is sinful.

Though the nature of his soul is sinful, the believer lives not by it but by the new nature which the Spirit uses in him.

 

[Axehead]

Does your Bible COMMAND you to DEPART FROM INIQUITY?

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Why would it say this if you could not say NO?

Or does your Bible say, that you will gradually be weaned off of iniquity? My Bible says, STOP!!

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

There must be some manifestation of the work of righteousness by the Spirit in a person. Otherwise, there is no reality of Christ in our lives and we just continue down the "happy" road of deception.

My Bible says that I don't love Jesus Christ if I don't keep His sayings. What does your's say?
John 14:24 He that loveth me NOT keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

And, if I love truth, I will come to the light which means I will reject darkness.
John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

1. Truth is something that one DOES.
2. You will not stay in darkness once you begin DOING TRUTH.
3. If you are NOT DOING TRUTH, you are choosing to remain in DARKNESS.
4. Those who are DOING TRUTH are producing deeds that are manifested, as being wrought in God.
5. Those who are NOT COMING TO THE LIGHT, are producing deeds that are NOT WROUGHT IN GOD.

Some take the view that one cannot be free from sin, just forgiven. In many places one sees the motto: "Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven." The acceptance of imperfection and unrighteousness seems to be the norm for the church. What this motto really says to the world is, "I am a sinner just like you, but I'm forgiven and you are not."

The emphasis is put on forgiveness instead of righteousness.

Many have the attitude of a Christian minister who was in an adulterous relationship; when confronted he responded, "Every night before I go to sleep, I just ask the Lord to forgive me."

Is there more than forgiveness? Is there freedom from sin? Does God require us to obey Him and walk in righteousness? (That's what my Bible says).

Many respond to these questions by talking about the sin nature within the believer, saying one can never be free from sin because sin will always be in him until he dies. They say the righteousness of Christ in no way changes the carnal nature, neither does the carnal nature affect the divine nature. Here man finds himself in a dualism of confusion and failure. The emphasis is upon "saved in sin" rather than "saved from sin". One finds himself living in a two story house with no connecting stairway. On one floor there can be no sin, but on the other floor there is nothing but sin.

Axehead

 

[Netchaplain]

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
1Jn 2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

These people will never quote passages like the one above. These people have to suppress passages like the one above, either ignore them or twist them somehow.

Keeping the commands of Christ (i.e. love one another as I have loved you, the Supper Communion, the ordinances of baptism etc.) do not obtain union with God, they reveal that it is has been obtained.

 

[Axehead]

Keeping the commands of Christ (i.e. love one another as I have loved you, the Supper Communion, the ordinances of baptism etc.) do not obtain union with God, they reveal that it is has been obtained.

Union with God is not a one time "happening", but is a daily life that manifests fruit (godliness, righteousness, purity, love, etc). Keeping the commands of Christ is a manifestation of our love for Him and hatred of anything that is not of Him (sin, flesh, world, devil).

Keeping the commands of Christ will KEEP YOU in Union (UNITED) to GOD and bearing fruit.

John_15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

 

[Netchaplain]

Does your Bible COMMAND you to DEPART FROM INIQUITY?

2Ti_2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Why would it say this if you could not say NO?

Or does your Bible say, that you will gradually be weaned off of iniquity? My Bible says, STOP!!

The believer has departed from iniquity (sin) by way of co-crucifixion, but the passage does not imply that the believer will no longer have iniquity. To depart from it is to "put it off" (Eph 4:22; Col 3:8, 9), as one would put off doing something someone wants them to do. This does not refer to that which causes (sin nature) the believer to sin will be gone, that's why the "putting off" of what iniquity causes the believer to do.

Though this cannot be done perfectly, as only Christ could do, we are cleared of its guilt and rule. I may seem repetitious, but it's because the answer is always the same.

 

[ScottAU]

My comments in blue.

Clearly put, it all comes down to, "Is your faith in the works of Christ or the works of man?" There's nothing the believer has or can obtain through faith in the works of man because everything a believer has is in the works of Christ, esp. His virtues and attributes (holiness, righteousness, justification, etc.), which cannot be produced by any works of man and therefore is imputed to the believer from the works of Christ. You cannot have works of man and God, it's one or the other. Was Noah's faith in the "works of God" or in the "works of man"? Your approach is flawed for faith begets "working together with God" (2Cor 6:1) the fruit of which is "righteousness from a pure heart " (hence 1Pet 1:22). There is no such thing as simply "trusting in the works of Christ" APART from "us being a DOER of the word." God does not force our will, He draws us but we have to CHOOSE to yield, it is in yielding that God's grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul.

Noah was saved because He believed God and ACTED on that belief, thus he responded to God's grace with FAITH and the result was he was physically saved. The principle is exactly the same in regards to salvation. Yet modern theology does not teach this "working together" dynamic for they have replaced it with "trust in the Finished Work of Christ" (in the context of a Penal Exchange) and the notion of "forensic" salvation whereby one is still viewed as sinful. See what Satan has done? Satan has been able to convince people they can enter the kingdom when they are still "practically defiled" because of the teaching that they "cannot be made pure" in this life. The purity depended on is an imaginary forensic purity instead.

All of the "good works" which are evident from the believer that "glorify God" (Matt 5:16) are not from his life but are in his life by Christ's life, because now the Lord's life is the believer's life: Yet you are saying this from the perspective of "positional salvation" whereby one is still "with sin lest they are a liar." Thus the your doctrine has the fruit of apparent "good works" mixed with "evil works" due to your "sin you will, sin you must" doctrine. Therefore when you speak of "evident good works that glorify Christ" it is all really rhetorical fluff because the message you preach is the spiritual mixing with carnality, ie. "saved in sin" like Axehead points out.

"Christ, who is our life" (Col 3:4); "It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me" (Gal 2:20). Gal 2:20 is a Paul speaking of TOTAL SURRENDER. The old man had been crucified with the passions and desires (Gal 5:24) in order that the new man be born in Christ and thus the flesh is in subjection to the Spirit. You cannot appeal to Gal 2:30 in truth because you deny the cleansing of "all sin" of 1Joh 1:8 and the cleansing of "all unrighteousness" of 1Joh 1:9 thus when Paul says "it is no longer I that live" you have to view that as a "partial application" for you are stuck on the teaching that the "soul is still sinful." Thus the old man is not dead in your teaching.

The good works from us are due to the continuous works of the Father, in which He continually causes us to desire His will over all: "It is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure" (Phil 2:13). You'll quote Php 2:13 but neglect to quote Php 2:12...

Php 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Php 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Php 2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
Php 2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Work Out - G2716 - katergazomai
From G2596 and G2038; to work fully, that is, accomplish; by implication to finish, fashion: - cause, do (deed), perform, work (out).

To "work out" our salvation with fear and trembling is a reference to the dyanmic of "working together with God." It is in the saint cooperating with the grace of God throught the dynamic of faith that the salvation of the soul is wrought. See how your gospel has eliminated that facet? You have replaced it with the notion that "God does everything" and that we "just wait on God."

How can a believer "shine" as a "light in the world" WITHOUT REBUKE if they are still MANIFESTLY SINFUL as you teach? Look at how you wield the scripture, you constantly proof text isolated verses instead of presenting the context. All the articles you write are very similar in this methodology. You teacht he "rhetoric" of "saved in sin dualism" and then reference isolated proof texts as evidence.

You need to examine these things!

It's all by Christ using us, not by us using His help. You completely deny the "us doing anything." Are we but "robot playthings of God"?????? Use your mind. Noah "used God's help" by following God's direction on how to build the ark. Likewise Jesus taught that we must be DOERS OF THE WORD.

Mat 7:24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
Mat 7:25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
Mat 7:26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
Mat 7:27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Your doctrine is "hear only" and "wait for God to do it." That is not what the Bible teaches.

"Not of works" (Eph 2:8) means not of man's works, because it is of the works of Christ. Like I have clearly illustrated previously, "not of works" means "not of works apart from faith." Your view is that "not of works" means "do nothing" because "God is going to do it for you." You have eliminated obediently yielding to God. Everything you teach is applicable to an abstract notion of "everything being done for you."

The condition of the believer's soul is sinless but the nature of his soul is sinful. You have bought hook, line and sinker into the perversion of dualism. A believer has been purified within, they are not filthy. Your doctrine leaves converts "workers of iniquity" who will be rejected at the judgment.

Though the nature of his soul is sinful, the believer lives not by it but by the new nature which the Spirit uses in him. The believer does not live according to the "flesh" with its associated "passions and desires." The flesh is not sinful, it is flesh. A sinful heart is the heart that has a disposition to live according to the fleshly desires in opposition to the light of God. That sinful disposition is something that grows through repeated rebellion. You confuse the "temptations of the flesh" with "sinfulness."

Our faith is on trial in these flesh bodies we find ourselves in. God wants to see who has genuine faith, the genuine faith by which we rule over temptation. It is by a genuine faith that we access the grace of God and the effectual power of God's grace is made manifest to the saving of our souls.

Jas_1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

The believer has departed from iniquity (sin) by way of co-crucifixion, but the passage does not imply that the believer will no longer have iniquity. To depart from it is to "put it off" (Eph 4:22; Col 3:8, 9), as one would put off doing something someone wants them to do. This does not refer to that which causes (sin nature) the believer to sin will be gone, that's why the "putting off" of what iniquity causes the believer to do.

Though this cannot be done perfectly, as only Christ could do, we are cleared of its guilt and rule. I may seem repetitious, but it's because the answer is always the same.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

The lust of the flesh is not a "sin nature."

"Sin Nature" is an NIV mistranslation of the word SARX which means FLESH.

The flesh is not sinful. The flesh is but a base vehicle, sin is when we misuse our flesh in order to yield to unrighteousness.

THis doctrine of the "sin nature" which you believe in is a stronghold in your mind which is forcing you to reject the truth.

Jesus was tempted in all points as we are.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Temptation is common to all men.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

It was Augustine of Hippo who brought this notion that "concupisence" (natural desire, in particular sexual desire) was a corruption of human nature, ie. a sin nature. This notion was never taught in the early church and it is not taught in the Bible. It is proved, like all false doctrine, by isolating select texts from their proper context and by ignoring the whole counsel of God.

 

[Netchaplain]

Was Noah's faith in the "works of God" or in the "works of man"?

Noah believed God so his faith was in the work which He promised, as all the list in Hebrews 11: "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet . . . prepared an ark."

 

[IanLC]

Was Noah's faith in the "works of God" or in the "works of man"?

Noah believed God so his faith was in the work which He promised, as all the list in Hebrews 11: "By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet . . . prepared an ark."

Yet God considered Noah righteous in his generation. There mmust have been a sepration in the actions and lifestyle of Noah from the rest of the people in the world for God to spare him from the coming destruction of the flood. (Genesis 6:9)
"This is the account of Noah and his family. Noah was a righteous man, blameless among the people of his time, and he walked faithfully with God." (Genesis 6:9)