Self-Indulgence

[stunnedbygrace]

The flesh thinks love is self-preserving by nature rather than self-denying.

Word!
Give up your life to find your life.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

What is in our heart?

"For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect." Matt 5:46-47

And then from what Paul wrote:

"Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves." Phil 2:3

Jesus provided that impossible example for us to follow and then He made it a possibility. Absolutely selfless! All for the other guy!

Agree. Not only did Christ display this kind of love for His enemies...those who persecuted Him and despised and rejected Him...but Paul also (through the Holy Spirit) displayed this love. So no I don’t think it is impossible yet with God it is possible not of men. Stephen would be another ...in who while being stoned cries out for forgiveness of those who stoned him. Only the Spirit of God who is the full embodiment of Colossians 3:14-15 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness. [15] And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

Mark 10:21-27 Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. [22] And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions. [23] And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God! [24] And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God! [25] It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. [26] And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? [27] And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.

That is the only thing I meant ...not a love that increases us ...but most often decreases us in shame and rejection and hated of men for His sake.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Carnal gratification is looking for a loophole whereby sin no longer leads to death.

So the flesh demands the law be changed to..."the soul that sins...it shall live!" ????

You're on a truth roll.

 

[marks]

When God writes His Laws on the Israelite's hearts, then they shall keep them, all of them, every one.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When God writes His Laws on the Israelite's hearts, then they shall keep them, all of them, every one.

Much love!

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

2 Corinthians 3:7-9 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: [8] How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? [9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

 

[marks]

2 Corinthians 3:2-3 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men: [3] Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

I'd like to begin the quote 1 verse earlier.

1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
2 Ye are our epistle written in our hearts, known and read of all men:
3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Does Paul need to again offer proof of his apostleship? Does he need, as some others apparantly did, letters of recommendation?

No. The Christians in Corinth Were the letter of recommendation, the evidence of Paul's ministry. And this is nothing like the Old Covenant, where God gave Moses stone tablets to decree the covenant.

Now, it's a new life in the Spirit, a holy temple, a royal family, built not upon tables of stone, but upon Jesus Christ, and His Apostles, sent to share this new life abroad.

When I look at the broader passage, to me it speaks strongly against the idea that we are brought into any law other than our individual personal obedience to Jesus, and specifically about the Law given through Moses.

I look at, a few verses further,

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?

The Law brings to you death. Even with it's glory. Still, it's ministration, that is, what is served up to you, is death.

In Romans 7:

4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

The motions of sin, which were by the law.

So now we are delivered from the law, and in that deliverance, also delivered from the motions of sin. When we turn our focus to trusting that Jesus will bring us through every evil thing, without regard to our changing behavior, this trust in fact ushers us into the grace that sustains us in His purpose and power. Rom 5.

But when we forget we've been forgiven, then we fall back into that mentality that we need to perform better to be accepted. Since what God has done is forgiven our sins and accepted us wholey and completely in Christ, in His completed work upon the cross, when we think and act otherwise, this is not the mind of Christ, we've fallen from Grace to reliance on the flesh, on our behavior. This is the flesh mind, which does not serve God.

Anyway, I think I've wandered from my point, originally to say I don't think this passage is talking about the Law being written on our hearts, I think it's saying something different.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

Anyway, I think I've wandered from my point, originally to say I don't think this passage is talking about the Law being written on our hearts, I think it's saying something different.

Maybe we are speaking of two different things...yet you did say(if I understood correctly) when this happens to the Israelite ...God writing His Laws on their heart they will keep every one of them? So that is either true or not. Yet you disconnect:

Ezekiel 11:19-20
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Disconnect that passage From: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart

“I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:” and “written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the Living God; not in tables of stone, but in flesh tables of the heart.” ...to write in “flesh” tables of the heart ...First the stone has to be removed and a heart of flesh given...this is seen in the parables of stony ground which endures for a season but when persecution arises for the sake of the word...they are offended. —And went out from us (the disciples) because it was manifest they were not of us(the disciples).

There is only one good ground in the parables which yields fruit and multiplies and endures. Where the seed is sown and brings forth fruit. That is only by the Spirit of God ...and the only ground in any of the parables that is fruitful. Either it is that new heart given of God after the stone is removed ...and it is the ministration of righteousness (written not with ink but with the Spirit of the Living God)...or as your post would suggest all creation is on standby for the true Israelites with God’s law written on their hearts and they will do them.

 

[aspen]

Maybe we are speaking of two different things...yet you did say(if I understood correctly) when this happens to the Israelite ...God writing His Laws on their heart they will keep every one of them? So that is either true or not. Yet you disconnect:

Ezekiel 11:19-20
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Disconnect that passage From: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart

“I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:” and “written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the Living God; not in tables of stone, but in flesh tables of the heart.” ...to write in “flesh” tables of the heart ...First the stone has to be removed and a heart of flesh given...this is seen in the parables of stony ground which endures for a season but when persecution arises for the sake of the word...they are offended. —And went out from us (the disciples) because it was manifest they were not of us(the disciples).

There is only one good ground in the parables which yields fruit and multiplies and endures. Where the seed is sown and brings forth fruit. That is only by the Spirit of God ...and the only ground in any of the parables that is fruitful. Either it is that new heart given of God after the stone is removed ...and it is the ministration of righteousness (written not with ink but with the Spirit of the Living God)...or as your post would suggest all creation is on standby for the true Israelites with God’s law written on their hearts and they will do them.

Seems like a lot of effort to just say ‘I will teach them to love’. I understand why it took so long as it unfolded, but why is it necessary to trace out the message?

The law written on our hearts just means internalizing the law. Instead of ritual, it becomes part of us. The OT was introducing the idea throughout the entire history of the Jewish people.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Seems like a lot of effort to just say ‘I will teach them to love’. I understand why it took so long as it unfolded, but why is it necessary to trace out the message?

The law written on our hearts just means internalizing the law. Instead of ritual, it becomes part of us. The OT was introducing the idea throughout the entire history of the Jewish people.

Aspen, you have no idea how many times I’ve asked God that same question...why so much effort? Why not just say “love”.

Why so much effort put forth for us? but He gave time to unfold before all mankind love, all of it pointing to Christ. Long-suffering and patient He is to reveal His Son.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

but why is it necessary to trace out the message?

Wouldn’t say it is necessary. For me though it may be. It wasn’t until three years ago I picked up His word and read it. Been told so many things about God my entire life. There was so much messed up in my head...maybe God knows what I need is to “trace out the message.” ...thankfully He knows what is needed for each person ...I mean we see this clearly in the interaction of Jesus Christ with others and how every one was different.

 

[aspen]

Wouldn’t say it is necessary. For me though it may be. It wasn’t until three years ago I picked up His word and read it. Been told so many things about God my entire life. There was so much messed up in my head...maybe God knows what I need is to “trace out the message.” ...thankfully He knows what is needed for each person ...I mean we see this clearly in the interaction of Jesus Christ with others and how every one was different.

yeah. Good point.
Glad you picked it up.
You’ve made a lot of good contributions here

 

[Episkopos]

Wouldn’t say it is necessary. For me though it may be. It wasn’t until three years ago I picked up His word and read it. Been told so many things about God my entire life. There was so much messed up in my head...maybe God knows what I need is to “trace out the message.” ...thankfully He knows what is needed for each person ...I mean we see this clearly in the interaction of Jesus Christ with others and how every one was different.

We can love on different levels. These loves don't need to be against each other.

We can love in a reasonable way...treating others as ourselves. Considering others as well as ourselves....in balance. And then there is the crucified self-emptied love where self is annihilated so that Christ can take control and love others by His supernatural capacity through a surrendered vessel (the saint). This is a radical love that many profess to have but few can attain to....or even believe in.

In God's kingdom there is order.

There are the righteous who do things in balance. Who love from a very human capacity...but love nevertheless. And there are the holy who are crucified to themselves so that they walk in the power of Jesus...loving in HIS capacity.

But this order is refuted by many who claim both but do neither. These make no distinction between they who walk in their own power and they who are in Christ. Or else these judge from an outward religious criteria rather than from the heart. Religion destroys the simple and universal love of the righteous and denies the power that holiness brings to us mere mortals.

But if the love is unfeigned it isn't against God....that is unless it denies God's love. The human ego has a tendency to interfere in things for the sake of self-gratification.

 

[farouk]

yeah. Good point.
Glad you picked it up.
You’ve made a lot of good contributions here

Philippians 2, about the Perfect Servant being obedient unto death, even the death of the cross, is the antidote to self-indulgence...

 

[VictoryinJesus]

We can love on different levels. These loves don't need to be against each other.

We can love in a reasonable way...treating others as ourselves. Considering others as well as ourselves....in balance. And then there is the crucified self-emptied love where self is annihilated so that Christ can take control and love others by His supernatural capacity through a surrendered vessel (the saint). This is a radical love that many profess to have but few can attain to....or even believe in.

In God's kingdom there is order.

There are the righteous who do things in balance. Who love from a very human capacity...but love nevertheless. And there are the holy who are crucified to themselves so that they walk in the power of Jesus...loving in HIS capacity.

But this order is refuted by many who claim both but do neither. These make no distinction between they who walk in their own power and they who are in Christ. Or else these judge from an outward religious criteria rather than from the heart. Religion destroys the simple and universal love of the righteous and denies the power that holiness brings to us mere mortals.

But if the love is unfeigned it isn't against God....that is unless it denies God's love. The human ego has a tendency to interfere in things for the sake of self-gratification.

can agree with there is a difference in walking in man’s power or God’s power. Episkopos, I like you, but by now you should know I don’t agree whole-heartedly with the above. Two JW women just came to my house this morning. It is sad...in they said they are not ones who have been invited to heaven and they are not and will never be a “new creature” ...that being reserved only for those in Heaven and they are content to live on earth...outside the Kingdom since not invited. Not in Heaven...as they haven’t been invited by God. Asked them what the qualification is to be invited to Heaven and they said “moral values” and God chooses those who are to be in His kingdom. Some will have immortality...While others live forever but die if they break the “moral code”...which made absolutely no sense in ...then they don’t live forever. not buying all this exclusion but “exclusion” of the weak is what He came to do away with...not keep “vain imaginations” of some around and foster them. Which fits well with the “self-indulgence” for some ...while others who are servants are rejected...told they are and were never invited to become Sons.

 

[VictoryinJesus]

When God writes His Laws on the Israelite's hearts, then they shall keep them, all of them, every one.

Much love!

you never came back. You said “Israelite’s hearts” but remember Romans 9:6
“Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:” ...it is that of the promise ...children of the promise who are “Israel”.

you said “then shall they keep them, all of them, every one.” Galatians 5:14-15 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Romans 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
...the law will never be fulfilled after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
don’t know how many times it is said a heart of stone...stone tables has nothing to do with all but was specific to Jews. The law is for the disobedient. It is the natural which is disobedient...and considering all are natural and all are disobedient...His word says clearly one must be born again from above ...born of Spirit and obedience unto God. The natural man is against God and His Law. That born of Spirit being “that the righteousness of the Law might be fulfilled in.” God has to remove a stony heart and give a new heart...clearly that which is natural and that which is given a new spirit, a new heart...the mind of Christ in the ministration of the Spirit. Romans 6:16
[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Natural or Spiritual? Born of man and disobedient unto God= sin unto death.
Or. Born of the Spirit and obedience “of obedience unto righteousness”.

Probably will get kicked off for posting this video. Warning it is graphic; as this young man appears to be in a major spiritual battle ...yet he sees the fight between natural (Living life cutthroat) disobedience in a Natural heart of stone. He was raised Mormon and obviously struggles with his faith. Appreciate all his songs and an glimpse into his personal struggles. You don’t have to watch if you don’t want to. Much truth even in houses which Say “they stand strong” will and do fall in light of the only House which remains...the Household of God.

cause you're a Natural
A beating heart of stone
You gotta be so cold
To make it in this world
Yeah, you're a natural
Living your life cutthroat

 

[marks]

Maybe we are speaking of two different things...yet you did say(if I understood correctly) when this happens to the Israelite ...God writing His Laws on their heart they will keep every one of them? So that is either true or not. Yet you disconnect:

Ezekiel 11:19-20
[19] And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh: [20] That they may walk in my statutes, and keep mine ordinances, and do them: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God.

Disconnect that passage From: Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart

“I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them a heart of flesh:” and “written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the Living God; not in tables of stone, but in flesh tables of the heart.” ...to write in “flesh” tables of the heart ...First the stone has to be removed and a heart of flesh given...this is seen in the parables of stony ground which endures for a season but when persecution arises for the sake of the word...they are offended. —And went out from us (the disciples) because it was manifest they were not of us(the disciples).

There is only one good ground in the parables which yields fruit and multiplies and endures. Where the seed is sown and brings forth fruit. That is only by the Spirit of God ...and the only ground in any of the parables that is fruitful. Either it is that new heart given of God after the stone is removed ...and it is the ministration of righteousness (written not with ink but with the Spirit of the Living God)...or as your post would suggest all creation is on standby for the true Israelites with God’s law written on their hearts and they will do them.

Hi ViJ,

I see these passages talking about two different things. Similar wording, but only that.

In the Old Testament, God talks about when God redeems Israel, and comes to make His home with men. And He will write His laws on their hearts and they will keep His laws and statutes, all of them. Nothing not obeyed. All obedience performed. All blessings of the covenant received.

In the letter to Corinth, Paul talks about the people being a letter of commendation of Paul's apostleship.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Either it is that new heart given of God after the stone is removed ...and it is the ministration of righteousness (written not with ink but with the Spirit of the Living God)...or as your post would suggest all creation is on standby for the true Israelites with God’s law written on their hearts and they will do them.

I'm just saying those passages are talking about two different things.

I'll come back to this as I have time.

Much love!

 

[marks]

you said “then shall they keep them, all of them, every one.” Galatians 5:14-15 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [15] But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

But I believe that Israel will actually keep the Covanent Law from Horeb. Not that we do. We fullfill the law with our love. They will obey the ordinances and statutes and precepts and laws.

Much love!

 

[VictoryinJesus]

Hi ViJ,

I see these passages talking about two different things. Similar wording, but only that.

In the Old Testament, God talks about when God redeems Israel, and comes to make His home with men. And He will write His laws on their hearts and they will keep His laws and statutes, all of them. Nothing not obeyed. All obedience performed. All blessings of the covenant received.

In the letter to Corinth, Paul talks about the people being a letter of commendation of Paul's apostleship.

Much love!

2 Corinthians 3:9-14
[9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. [12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: [13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


Only two there...there is no third option that I’ve seen in the Word. Sin unto death. OR obedience unto righteousness. Those looking back are not fit for the kingdom? Does God look back to what has waxed old and passed(is passing) away. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you...there are only two Covenants the old and the New. Are you saying God returns to the Old Covenant... “...to even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

 

[marks]

2 Corinthians 3:9-14
[9] For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. [10] For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious. [12] Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: [13] And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished: [14] But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.


Only two there...there is no third option that I’ve seen in the Word. Sin unto death. OR obedience unto righteousness. Those looking back are not fit for the kingdom? Does God look back to what has waxed old and passed(is passing) away. Maybe I’m misunderstanding you...there are only two Covenants the old and the New. Are you saying God returns to the Old Covenant... “...to even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. [11] For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

I'm saying that God will fulfill His word.

And it will be glory upon glory when God brings in their new covenant, and fulfills in them their old.

But let me ask you, do you see what I'm saying about the passage in 2 Corinthians 3?

Much love!