Set free from religion?

[jiggyfly]

I dont believe God is that foolish. After all His efforts, we now have multiple towers of bablle. all building there tower to heaven, all speaking adifferent language al preaching a different Jesus. Jesus has one church,not many

In His Love

I agree Mjrhealth. One body.

 

[Prentis]

Well, I think you have provided some good insight in your post. When I discovered that all the things that I was taught as a Protestant to fear about Catholic doctrine was a distortion or secondary even to catholics, I was happily surprised. Although, I recognize the true faith of many Protestants - everyone who confesses His name and true nature; I also recognize the Reformation did come out of rebellion. Born out of this rebellion came radical individualism, denominationalism, relativism, and private interpretation of the scriptures. It also stripped the Protestant church of symbols and a spirit of the sacred; not to mention, it did not solve the problems the Reformers pointed out in Catholicism; the Bible replaced Mary and statues for many Protestants; there is still a reliance on Tradition as an authority in many Protestant traditions; and as the churches grew, they took on all the same trapping of power and bureaucracy as Catholicism. What I guess I am saying is, Protestant churches simply became the little brother of Catholicism - we still belong to the same family,with all the same quirks. One of the biggest fears of conservatives on the Protestant side is not 'are we becoming worldly' it is actually, 'are we still too Catholic'. Conservative Catholics worry that Catholicism is becoming too Protestant - so they hug their statues even tighter. One of the greatest ironies in Catholicism is the Traditional Catholic Church, which Mel Gibson belongs to and is a schism. They reject all Popes after Pius X (anti-modernist) and believe Vatican II was the Devil's attempt to make Catholicism, Protestant. Well, what is the difference between the Traditionalist and high church Protestants? Nothing!

I liked this part of your post... I think it paints a good picture of what Protestantism and Catholicism really are.

Only I see that as a reason to come out of BOTH!

Both have these traditions, these 'quirks' as you calle them, these interpretations of man... I say, let's come out of the system and seek the Spirit's guidance as to how HE builds his church. No, I'm not into rebelling against the system, but into calling people outside the camp, to come and seek the Lord and what he would have us do. Let's come out of all our 'beliefs' and come into faith!

Too much of our interpretation is us interpreting the Word of God. But the word is not open for open interpretation. We need to follow the Spirit, not man!

Okay, I'm ready for the punches now!:lol:

 

[aspen]

I liked this part of your post... I think it paints a good picture of what Protestantism and Catholicism really are.

Only I see that as a reason to come out of BOTH!

Both have these traditions, these 'quirks' as you calle them, these interpretations of man... I say, let's come out of the system and seek the Spirit's guidance as to how HE builds his church. No, I'm not into rebelling against the system, but into calling people outside the camp, to come and seek the Lord and what he would have us do. Let's come out of all our 'beliefs' and come into faith!

Too much of our interpretation is us interpreting the Word of God. But the word is not open for open interpretation. We need to follow the Spirit, not man!

Okay, I'm ready for the punches now!:lol:

Sorry, your beating will have to wait....I am going to lead a Protestant Bible study in 15 mins

 

[IanLC]

I think we need to halt when we deal with studies on Protestantism and make statements upon Portestantism like it is one central organization as with Catholicism their are many different denominations with in the Protestant category. The Church ( sum up Protestant and Catholic) was split upon tirivial issues, 1. Lutheranism faith should be in Jesus alone and the bible is the inspiried word of God, the main stream church of the time Catholicism could have looked at their current doctrine corrected and changed some things and grew in Christ (their might not have been a split then), 2. Baptists believe in baptism by immersion and stress that every believer is a priest and so they have loose organizational leadership, Church could have looked at its doctrine corrected it and changed it like they could haven done with Lutheranism and their might not have been a breech, 3. Presbyterian believes polity based on presbyters (elders), bishops etc. that is not to much different form the Catholic denomination same as with Episcopalians and Anglicans, 4. Methodist believe in sanctification by the Holy Spirit and the basic methods of scripture (EVERY CHRISTIAN should be a methodist in that they believe in the sanctification process and believe in Jesus our Christ's teachings which are the basic methods, 5. Holiness denomination (which I am) stresses the sanctification process and holiness in the believers life and the importance of the Holy Spirit in the believer's life (every CHristian should strive to life a holy life in private and in public before God and men) 6. Apostolic denomination stresses the Five-Fold Ministry, importance of apostles and prophets in the church, stress belief in Jesus Christ alone ( In a since every Christian should lift Christ up) 7. Pentecostal denomination (by expressions of worship and praise the UHC of A which I belong to, is classified as pentecostal-holiness) stress the importance of the Holy Spirit and his manifestation in the believer's life, importance of the Baptism of thr Holy Spirit, sanctfication or baptism by heavenly fire ( every Christian should desire the Holy Spirit in their lives and his manifestation and sanctification process in the believer's life) 8. Charismatic movement and the Non-denominationals stress gifts of the Holy Spirit and break from an organized sytem of leadership and loose expressions of praise and worship (every Christian should desire the gifts of the Holy Spirit but not worship the gifts).
In simplicity what I am trying to say is that there could have been a Church with out division if a proper evaluation of the beliefs stressed was taken into account and utilized and corrected in some areas. Most of the splits and denominations have the same chore doctrine their just STRESS certain beliefs over others! Being in the UHC of A (holiness-pentecostal) we have and retain the Catholic since of ritual yet we believe in the importance of the Holy Spirit and his work in the believer's life we are not a perfect church by no means but we strive to become perfect and unified in the faith. We try to fellowship with Catholics and others on days such as Pentecost etc. hat I am trying to say is lets start the unity in Christ campaign by observing and seeing the truth in every denomination and recignize their stressed points and points where they have faltered or overlooked. The process will be long and hard but through Christ it WILL happen. When tribulation and persecution of the church (Catholic or Protestant) increase and become worse and rampant we will be unified in our persecutons and not care about what doctrine I our you stress.

 

[jiggyfly]

[font="tahoma][size="2"]
[font="tahoma][size="2"]So you hate organized religion, but you love Jesus?[/size][/font]
Jesus is God; church is made by humans.......
Had enough with all the hypocrisy? Ready to divorce your church and go it alone?
[font="tahoma] [/font][/color]Here's the problem.....Christ used humans to start His church.

One of the real draw backs of the Reformation has been a distrust of humanity's ability to continue what Christ entrusted human beings to maintain - specifically, His Church. It started with the Reformer's charge of corruption in the Catholic Church, which was accurate; unfortunately, they did not stop with simply identifying the corruption. With the exception of Luther (he was excommunicated), the Reformers rebelled and labelled the entire Catholic Church as corrupt, worldly, and sometimes went as far as identifying the Pope as the antichrist. Monarchies encouraged this religious rebellion because they wanted to break away from the Vatican, as well.

This basic distrust for all organized religion, spawned countless vain attempts to recreate the early church - of course, all failed because as soon as the new church movements became large, they fell into the same conundrum as the Catholic Church; they had to add structure, organization and standardization of doctrine/practice/worship. Consequently, all attempts at recreating the early church became an exercise in chasing rainbows.

Today we have witnessed the death of Modernism - mainline Protestantism is in it's death throws; atheism/fundamentalism are gasping for air; and Postmodernism is taking root. The interesting thing is, in the midst of all this change, the old Reformation-born distrust of organized religion is getting stronger! It is now part of the conservative Protestant narrative - 'real Christians' love Jesus, not some building! Religion is of man, not of God! I believe in the Bible (a product of the church), not church!

Admittedly, I find this dualistic thinking absurd. Religion is the framework and method that humans use to communicate and relate to God. A parallel claim might be, "I believe in ideas, not language!" Furthermore, the fact that God has included humans in His plan for our redemption from the very beginning, tells me that He wants us to be obedient and responsible for spreading His Word and caring for His Flock. The method Jesus decided to use according to Mathew 16 is His Church.

Believing that humans are totally depraved and God is the only force working through us for good is an extension of Gnostic dualism; magnified by Calvinism; and perpetuated by a misunderstanding of Paul's use of the word 'flesh'. Paul was not a Gnostic! He did not condemn our flesh (humanity); he condemned our flesh (worldliness)! Also, his use of the word 'work' refers to relying on our sinful tendency (old nature) to cut corners and justify the ends with our means because it will not get us closer to God. Instead, God wants our obedience (God + human submission) and our participation (practicing our sanctification by loving God and neighbor).

Church is not the problem. Our unwillingness to participate in loving God and our neighbor in the context of Church is the problem. If God trusts humans to spread His word; we can trust humans to lead us in worship; listen to our worries, fears, sins; and to walk with us in our sanctification and sometimes show us the way by their example. [/size][/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma] [/font][/color]
[color="#5D5D5D"][font="tahoma][size="2"]So there is my opinion - please share yours! I want to understand![/size][/font]

OK Aspen here is my 2 cents.

Jesus replied, “I assure you, no one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and the Spirit. Humans can reproduce only human life, but the Holy Spirit gives birth to spiritual life. So don’t be surprised when I say, ‘You must be born again.’ The wind blows wherever it wants. Just as you can hear the wind but can’t tell where it comes from or where it is going, so you can’t explain how people are born of the Spirit.” John 3:5-8

But the time is coming—indeed it’s here now—when true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Father is looking for those who will worship him that way. For God is Spirit, so those who worship him must worship in spirit and in truth.” John 4:23-24 (NLT)


You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor and you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. 1 Peter 2:4-5 (NLT)

The Ekklesia, the body of Christ is a spiritual entity that Jesus is building in this dispensation.

Has Christ been divided into factions? Was I, Paul, crucified for you? Were any of you baptized in the name of Paul? Of course not! 1 Cor 1:13 (NLT)

Paul says that there is no way that Christ can be divided so if there is division it must be on a carnal level because the HolySpirit is working to bring unity.

However, the Most High doesn’t live in temples made by human hands. As the prophet says, ‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Could you build me a temple as good as that?’ asks the Lord. ‘Could you build me such a resting place?Didn’t my hands make both heaven and earth?’ Acts 7:48-50 (NLT)

To call any man-made building the "temple" or "church of God is totally out of line with the testimony of the scriptures and the work of HolySpirit. Yet the Christian religious institution is built on such an idea.

Here's a quote from T. Austin Sparks.

What is the Church? It is Christ in living union with His own. That is the Church.

You do not build a special building and call it "the Church". You do not have a special organization — a religious institution — which you call "the Church". Believers in living union with the risen Lord constitute Church. This is the reality, not the figure.

Now, in union with Christ risen, all human limitations are transcended. This is one of the wonders of Christ risen as a living reality. We are brought into a realm of capacities which are more than human capacities, where — because of Christ in us — we can do what we never could do naturally.

 

[Prentis]

Love the quote, jiggyfly!

Indeed, in Christ we are given the capacity to be as he is... But for this, we need to give up everything! Denominations require that you latch unto certain beliefs and certain actions. Christ requires something more simple yet far more difficult... To fully surrender to him!

He calls us out of the camp to come and seek his face.

 

[Prentis]

Sorry, your beating will have to wait....I am going to lead a Protestant Bible study in 15 mins

Fiouuuu! Maybe you'll forget about it by the time it's over...

But I hope not!

 

[jiggyfly]

Love the quote, jiggyfly!

Indeed, in Christ we are given the capacity to be as he is... But for this, we need to give up everything! Denominations require that you latch unto certain beliefs and certain actions. Christ requires something more simple yet far more difficult... To fully surrender to him!

He calls us out of the camp to come and seek his face.

Yes indeed, I agree Prentis.
Have you read any of T. Austin Sparks' material?

Here's an excellent book titled "God's Spiritual House" http://austin-sparks.net/english/books/gods_spiritual_house.html

 

[Rach1370]

I dont believe God is that foolish. After all His efforts, we now have multiple towers of bablle. all building there tower to heaven, all speaking adifferent language al preaching a different Jesus. Jesus has one church,not many

In His Love

I think it very much depends...no, I don't think God is at all foolish, but I do believe man is. Those in different denominations who honestly love and seek Jesus, well, they tend to come together no matter their differences, in fact I think that the differences can end up bringing a wonderful depth. In this we see 'the church'...that being Jesus' church. It's when people bring their hopes, their desires, their plans to a church, rather than Jesus', that the differences mean division. It kinda behoves us to really make sure the church we attend is a bible believing, Christ focused church, huh?

Well, I think you have provided some good insight in your post. When I discovered that all the things that I was taught as a Protestant to fear about Catholic doctrine was a distortion or secondary even to catholics, I was happily surprised. Although, I recognize the true faith of many Protestants - everyone who confesses His name and true nature; I also recognize the Reformation did come out of rebellion. Born out of this rebellion came radical individualism, denominationalism, relativism, and private interpretation of the scriptures. It also stripped the Protestant church of symbols and a spirit of the sacred; not to mention, it did not solve the problems the Reformers pointed out in Catholicism; the Bible replaced Mary and statues for many Protestants; there is still a reliance on Tradition as an authority in many Protestant traditions; and as the churches grew, they took on all the same trapping of power and bureaucracy as Catholicism. What I guess I am saying is, Protestant churches simply became the little brother of Catholicism - we still belong to the same family,with all the same quirks. One of the biggest fears of conservatives on the Protestant side is not 'are we becoming worldly' it is actually, 'are we still too Catholic'. Conservative Catholics worry that Catholicism is becoming too Protestant - so they hug their statues even tighter. One of the greatest ironies in Catholicism is the Traditional Catholic Church, which Mel Gibson belongs to and is a schism. They reject all Popes after Pius X (anti-modernist) and believe Vatican II was the Devil's attempt to make Catholicism, Protestant. Well, what is the difference between the Traditionalist and high church Protestants? Nothing!

Personally, I believe Catholics and Protestants are moving closer together everyday and I like it. Unfortunately, conservatives on both sides are frightened. Vatican II was an act of God in the Catholic Church; I am not sure if you know the story? Pope John XIII was basically chosen because he was considered most likely NOT to make waves. To his credit, he shocked the entire Roman Catholic world by calling a council to 'open the windows of the church, allowing fresh air into the stale corners'. I am sure the conservative establishment was horrified, especially when he called in many of the Protestant theologians of the day to offer insight.

Anyway, I got tired of being politically and religiously frightened all the time by conservatives. I will not be suffocated by doctrine and fear - doctrine is a guide - it is a map to a wilderness of freedom. I believe Christ shattered the dualism in Jewish thinking by introducing a focus of love as the 'ends' of the 'means' of doctrine and I want to pursue that love.

Ok, I am rambling.....

I haven't yet studied the reformation in detail to be able to comment on it, but I do believe it was necessary...for both Protestants and Catholics. I truly don't agree with many of the beliefs of the Catholic Church...but then again I don't agree with a lot of what some Protestants believe either. No person is going to agree 100% with another person...it's just not how we see things. With all of this I truly believe the only way to have peace with other Christians, is to acknowledge their love and commitment to Jesus. I don't see eye to eye with you on many things, but I can see you follow Jesus, so you are my brother. Everything else should be intellectual discussion on what we believe to be true...heartfelt, yes, but hardly the war some make it.

 

[aspen]

I think it very much depends...no, I don't think God is at all foolish, but I do believe man is. Those in different denominations who honestly love and seek Jesus, well, they tend to come together no matter their differences, in fact I think that the differences can end up bringing a wonderful depth. In this we see 'the church'...that being Jesus' church. It's when people bring their hopes, their desires, their plans to a church, rather than Jesus', that the differences mean division. It kinda behoves us to really make sure the church we attend is a bible believing, Christ focused church, huh?




I haven't yet studied the reformation in detail to be able to comment on it, but I do believe it was necessary...for both Protestants and Catholics. I truly don't agree with many of the beliefs of the Catholic Church...but then again I don't agree with a lot of what some Protestants believe either. No person is going to agree 100% with another person...it's just not how we see things. With all of this I truly believe the only way to have peace with other Christians, is to acknowledge their love and commitment to Jesus. I don't see eye to eye with you on many things, but I can see you follow Jesus, so you are my brother. Everything else should be intellectual discussion on what we believe to be true...heartfelt, yes, but hardly the war some make it.

Awesome post! Discussing doctrine is an intellectual exercise for me, as well. It is the reason I can talk with all kinds of people of different faiths without argument. Unfortunately, I have not been so lucky with conservatives! Anyway, I always appreciate our discussions and stand in awe of God's grace and our God given faith.

As far as studying the Reformation - I started years ago with the Idiot's Guide to the Reformation - surprisingly, it provide a great overview - it actually provided my mental framework on the subject.

Thanks Rach! I always learn from you

 

[goodshepard55]

Such an awesome thread....I have learned much from you Rach and Aspen...makes us dig deeper into history, which a fresh open mind...Thank you both....

 

[jiggyfly]

Now for the etymology lesson

.

The English word religion is derived from the Latin word religio and it means to bind again or to obligate.

I would say it lives up to it's name.

 

[Rach1370]

As far as studying the Reformation - I started years ago with the Idiot's Guide to the Reformation - surprisingly, it provide a great overview - it actually provided my mental framework on the subject.

Idiot's guide to the Reformation?? That's awesome! I've gotta get me one of those!

 

[jiggyfly]

I think it very much depends...no, I don't think God is at all foolish, but I do believe man is. Those in different denominations who honestly love and seek Jesus, well, they tend to come together no matter their differences, in fact I think that the differences can end up bringing a wonderful depth. In this we see 'the church'...that being Jesus' church. It's when people bring their hopes, their desires, their plans to a church, rather than Jesus', that the differences mean division. It kinda behoves us to really make sure the church we attend is a bible believing, Christ focused church, huh?

Hey Rach, gotta question, do you feel that you must attend scheduled religious liturgy to be part of a church?

 

[Rach1370]

Hey Rach, gotta question, do you feel that you must attend scheduled religious liturgy to be part of a church?

Golly I hope not! I'm pretty sick, so I really don't make it often! And then there are people who just can't...be it distance, or work, or an unhelpful spouse. Anyone who loves Jesus is part of His 'church'.

But having said that, I do see value in it, and I do think the Bible encourages us to do it. The coming together of the 'church' to worship as one. There's so much in the gathering of God's people; encouragement for all of us, learning and growing for the majority of people who don't 'study' scripture. And of course God tells us that where "two or more gather in His name, there He will be too." We know He is everywhere, and with us all the time, but the fact that He specifically tells us that implies that He approves of our 'gathering'.

So, no, I don't feel we 'must' attend a church to be part of Christ's "church", but I do feel we should.

 

[jiggyfly]

Golly I hope not! I'm pretty sick, so I really don't make it often! And then there are people who just can't...be it distance, or work, or an unhelpful spouse. Anyone who loves Jesus is part of His 'church'.

But having said that, I do see value in it, and I do think the Bible encourages us to do it. The coming together of the 'church' to worship as one. There's so much in the gathering of God's people; encouragement for all of us, learning and growing for the majority of people who don't 'study' scripture. And of course God tells us that where "two or more gather in His name, there He will be too." We know He is everywhere, and with us all the time, but the fact that He specifically tells us that implies that He approves of our 'gathering'.

So, no, I don't feel we 'must' attend a church to be part of Christ's "church", but I do feel we should.

One more question, if your are part of the "church" how do you attend "church"?

 

[Rach1370]

One more question, if your are part of the "church" how do you attend "church"?

It depends on how you see it I suppose. Being a Christian, I am a part of Christ's church. But when I attend 'church' I am going to a place where I gather with my brothers and sisters in Christ (the church) and worship Jesus together. I think this can be done anywhere at any time...in a sense it's what I'm doing here on this forum. I think it's wonderful that the bible encourages the church to come together in worship and praise...a time for support and love for the family of God. I don't think it matters what we call it...I suppose that over time we have coined the phrase "going to church" and calling the building we attend church just because that's what it's there for....a building where the church meets in common purpose.

 

[aspen]

One more question, if your are part of the "church" how do you attend "church"?

I thought I would chime in on this post.

I think one of the meaningful ways that Catholics and Anglicans participate in the mystical Body of Christ when they are not at church is through common prayer. Many Catholics pray the Liturgy of the Hours and Anglicans use the Book of Common Prayer.

 

[jiggyfly]

During my prayer time, if I speak it is usually in the Spirit, but the best thing about prayer, it is where my thinking is adjusted and aligned to Father's will.

It depends on how you see it I suppose. Being a Christian, I am a part of Christ's church. But when I attend 'church' I am going to a place where I gather with my brothers and sisters in Christ (the church) and worship Jesus together. I think this can be done anywhere at any time...in a sense it's what I'm doing here on this forum. I think it's wonderful that the bible encourages the church to come together in worship and praise...a time for support and love for the family of God. I don't think it matters what we call it...I suppose that over time we have coined the phrase "going to church" and calling the building we attend church just because that's what it's there for....a building where the church meets in common purpose.

I appreciate your response.