Hi again, everybody. I have (at least) one other big question to ask you all, in some hope of getting a good answer for it.Why doesn't God show Himself in some way to us, so that it would be clear to us that He exists? This is a question that I see a lot of atheists ask, and it's a good question, in my opinion. The traditional answer I've heard is basically that if He appeared to us, we wouldn't need faith, and we would have no choice but to worship Him - essentially negating our free will. But I have two problems with that answer.First, Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden before sin, and the Bible says that God walked with Adam - actually, now that I try to find the reference, I can't seem to find it, but at the very least, God spoke audibly to Adam and Eve, and Gen. 3:8 says that "they heard the sound" of God walking in the garden. So in any case, it seems that Adam and Eve had clear, undeniable proof of God's existence. And yet, they still managed to disobey God, rebel against Him, sin against Him - whatever you want to call it. Their knowledge of His existence in no way denied their free will. Along the same lines, Lucifer was an angel in God's presence. He certainly knew that God existed. And yet he still managed to rebel, get thrown out of Heaven, and continually try to thwart all of God's plans. In other words, even with proof of God's existence, we still are able to disobey God and sin.Second, at least the large majority of Christian denominations claim that at some point in the future, Jesus is going to return and all Christians are going to get to go to Heaven. Here we will be in the presence of God to worship Him forever. But wait - if God wants us to choose to worship Him, and that requires that we don't have proof of His existence, then what happens in Heaven? Do we still have the choice to worship Him or not, even once we've seen Him "face to face"? If you say that sure we have the choice, but no one would ever choose not to worship Him, then I can just point you right back to Lucifer...So here is my question: As I began to have doubts of God's existence, I prayed to Him - begged and pleaded with Him, really - to reveal Himself to me in some way. I just needed one way to know whether He existed or not - even if it wasn't entirely clear, maybe even leaving some room for ambiguity - and as soon as I had that, I was ready to commit my life back to Him again. But nothing ever happened. No sign ever came. I wasn't looking for anything incredibly miraculous - but certainly God can cause a bunny to come around outside my window, right? Does God not love me enough to show Himself to me in some way? I'm not one of those people that would never convert, despite any evidence shown to me. I'm just one of those people that is starting to think that sometimes we see what we want to see, even if it's not really there. Because as soon as I started having doubts, it was suddenly like all the evidence I had for God's existence suddenly didn't "work" anymore. It was like praying to a brick wall...At any rate, sorry for the long, rambling post. I just am looking for answers, and I can't seem to find them inside my own noggin. I desperately want to believe, but I cannot believe in something without at least a semi-logical explanation behind it. I'm just trying to find that explanation....Thanks in advance for your comments, everyone.
Signs of God's Existence
- Thread starter jeffhughes
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HI friend, Okay Ive been there and done that. There is actually alot of Evidence that God exists. First there is this great book called numbers in scripture I suggest that you take a look at some of the things the author wrote in that book. while its not right on subject with what you are dealing with its fascinating . Especially the color portion. Its on this website under resources. Okay the possibility of Life.. Did you know that British physicist P.C.W. Davies has concluded that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for the formation of STARS - a necessity for planets and thus life - are one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros.Davies also estimated that if the strength of gravity or the weak force were changed by one part in ten followed by a hundred zeros, life would not have ever developed. There are about fifty constants and quantities -for example, the amount o usable energy in the universe, the difference in mass between protons and neutrons, the ratios of the fundamental forces of nature, and the proportion of matter to anti matter- that must be balanced to a mathematically infinitesimal degree for life to even be possible.... (the case for Faith by lee strobe) There are alot of people who have the same questions and problems with faith that you do. Its oKay God made you different you dont go on blind faith you need evidence .the Bible says seek and you shall find. Look at the evidence scientists have found . Lee strobel was a Lawyer and a journalist who did not believe in god and so he set out to prove it . Along the way he interviewed Christian,agnostic,and atheist alike, the evidence was overwhelming and he became a Christian. Some people need evidence. I think God answered your prayer without answering it. He led you here . God doesn't love you any less . He wants you to seek Him out in a way that will make you believe. You know good and well that if a bunny came to your window by the next morning you would be thinking "it could have been coin incidence" and then you would need more signs. If God has laid it on your heart to find Him there is evidence in that alone . He works from the inside out . If you feel like your prayers are hindered is there a reason why? Sometimes I have to confess all my crap before I can go to God and "feel " his presence. I know he Loves you ,I promise. Seek him out Ask seek knock. The seek part is very important. Also the Word creates faith.Check out Colossians! _haanne
Thanks for the response, haanne.(haanne;55909)
First there is this great book called numbers in scripture I suggest that you take a look at some of the things the author wrote in that book. while its not right on subject with what you are dealing with its fascinating . Especially the color portion. Its on this website under resources.
Alright, I will make sure to take a look at that a bit later. Thanks
(haanne;55909)
Okay the possibility of Life.. Did you know that British physicist P.C.W. Davies has concluded that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for the formation of STARS - a necessity for planets and thus life - are one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros.Davies also estimated that if the strength of gravity or the weak force were changed by one part in ten followed by a hundred zeros, life would not have ever developed. There are about fifty constants and quantities -for example, the amount o usable energy in the universe, the difference in mass between protons and neutrons, the ratios of the fundamental forces of nature, and the proportion of matter to anti matter- that must be balanced to a mathematically infinitesimal degree for life to even be possible.... (the case for Faith by lee strobe)
I have heard very similar arguments before in regard to the precise constants that the universe are set to. However, the problem is that we don't know whether those values CAN be changed. Perhaps it is simply a fundamental nature of the universe that these values are the way they are. While I think that it is certainly one of the strongest arguments for the existence of God, I wouldn't put my faith in God on that one argument alone.(haanne;55909)
He wants you to seek Him out in a way that will make you believe. You know good and well that if a bunny came to your window by the next morning you would be thinking "it could have been coin incidence" and then you would need more signs.
You're right, if a bunny came by my window, it could just be a coincidence. But if I had prayed, "God send a bunny outside my window," and then suddenly a bunny hopped by, I would certainly take that as evidence, because a) it's VERY coincidental that it happened just when I prayed, and
I have never seen a bunny outside this window before. That would certainly be all the evidence I need. As I said, I'm not one of those people that would never ever convert, despite all the evidence thrown at me. I'm just looking for some harder evidence than a warm, fuzzy feeling, some reports from friends of friends of friends of internal healings, and a Bible that nobody can seem to agree on what it says. If God showed me that He existed (and why shouldn't He? He certainly appeared to people in the Bible in visions, or with an audible voice) in some way - any way, really - then it would be more than enough evidence for me to throw away all my doubts and believe in Him once again...(haanne;55909)
If God has laid it on your heart to find Him there is evidence in that alone . He works from the inside out . If you feel like your prayers are hindered is there a reason why? Sometimes I have to confess all my crap before I can go to God and "feel " his presence.
This goes back to what I just said. I need more than a fuzzy feeling inside. I can get the same thing by watching a sappy movie...
First there is this great book called numbers in scripture I suggest that you take a look at some of the things the author wrote in that book. while its not right on subject with what you are dealing with its fascinating . Especially the color portion. Its on this website under resources.
Alright, I will make sure to take a look at that a bit later. Thanks
Okay the possibility of Life.. Did you know that British physicist P.C.W. Davies has concluded that the odds against the initial conditions being suitable for the formation of STARS - a necessity for planets and thus life - are one followed by at least a thousand billion billion zeros.Davies also estimated that if the strength of gravity or the weak force were changed by one part in ten followed by a hundred zeros, life would not have ever developed. There are about fifty constants and quantities -for example, the amount o usable energy in the universe, the difference in mass between protons and neutrons, the ratios of the fundamental forces of nature, and the proportion of matter to anti matter- that must be balanced to a mathematically infinitesimal degree for life to even be possible.... (the case for Faith by lee strobe)
I have heard very similar arguments before in regard to the precise constants that the universe are set to. However, the problem is that we don't know whether those values CAN be changed. Perhaps it is simply a fundamental nature of the universe that these values are the way they are. While I think that it is certainly one of the strongest arguments for the existence of God, I wouldn't put my faith in God on that one argument alone.(haanne;55909)
He wants you to seek Him out in a way that will make you believe. You know good and well that if a bunny came to your window by the next morning you would be thinking "it could have been coin incidence" and then you would need more signs.
You're right, if a bunny came by my window, it could just be a coincidence. But if I had prayed, "God send a bunny outside my window," and then suddenly a bunny hopped by, I would certainly take that as evidence, because a) it's VERY coincidental that it happened just when I prayed, and
If God has laid it on your heart to find Him there is evidence in that alone . He works from the inside out . If you feel like your prayers are hindered is there a reason why? Sometimes I have to confess all my crap before I can go to God and "feel " his presence.
This goes back to what I just said. I need more than a fuzzy feeling inside. I can get the same thing by watching a sappy movie...
I'd like to just add two things:First, I skimmed through that book you mentioned. It's really long! But ultimately, it gives more testimony to the fact that humans organize information into groups and have certain preferred numbers, more than anything else. It is an amazing thing to read, no doubt (I would read it all if I had the time), but most of it can easily be explained by man's propensity to organize and symbolize. For example, in the Bible there is a lot of symbolism. Did the Israelites really wander around in the desert for exactly 40 years? We may not really know, but 40 often is used to mean "a really long time." Since men wrote it, we see the symbols they used. And as the Jewish nation built upon the Scriptures, that symbolism came into play throughout the later books of what we now call the Bible.Second, I just wanted to add a link that I just found that seems, to me, to sort of agree with my position - although it is written by a Christian. They're essentially arguing that we should not be required to take everything on faith, but rather that we should see evidence of God and be able to place our beliefs on that. He obviously seems to have found the evidence, but my post here is my search for my own...http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5244
Mr. Hughes, Hello again. :angel9:
You're right, if a bunny came by my window, it could just be a coincidence. But if I had prayed, "God send a bunny outside my window," and then suddenly a bunny hopped by, I would certainly take that as evidence, because a) it's VERY coincidental that it happened just when I prayed, and
I have never seen a bunny outside this window before. That would certainly be all the evidence I need. As I said, I'm not one of those people that would never ever convert, despite all the evidence thrown at me. I'm just looking for some harder evidence than a warm, fuzzy feeling, some reports from friends of friends of friends of internal healings, and a Bible that nobody can seem to agree on what it says. If God showed me that He existed (and why shouldn't He? He certainly appeared to people in the Bible in visions, or with an audible voice) in some way - any way, really - then it would be more than enough evidence for me to throw away all my doubts and believe in Him once again...I have a personal stake in this . Let me tell you why ... My husband whom I love dearly believes along the same lines as you. We have had a thousand conversations about how he should just" Go On Faith" . They would usually end up with both of us frustrated and Neither of us understanding the other. God is what gets me through the day I couldn't understand his lack of belief. Then It occurred to me that Some people are blessed with emotional intellect I can take my faith and my "experiences where prayers have been answered and revelations have been given" and run. My husband cannot. He needs hadrd core evidence something tangible he can hold onto. I think he is more Intellectual than I am . I hope you do not think I was being condescending or Rude when I said you would need more signs I just know my husband would. I admire that you are seeking this out . I think that God has a purpose in this for you and others as well. If your unbelief leads you to evidences that would not have otherwise been found and you help others as a result theres a greater purpose. I guess thats just a hypothetical but you see where I am going. These things are interesting: Bullinger Signs in the stars, Dr. William Lane Reasonable faith (google it) and Dr. Douglas Jacoby http://www.douglasjacoby.com/ Check this out ...By John Clayton, Does God Exist? January/February 2006. Used by permission.)Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar believes she has found David's palace. A seal impression with the name of Jehudi, a palace officer, has been found in the ruins. Jeremiah 36 records a man by the same name. There will likely be a great deal of debate about this for a while, but it will turn out to be a monumental find if it holds up to further examination. Another incredible find is the Siloam Pool described in John 9:1-11, where Jesus healed the blind man. Ronny Reich, a leading archaeologist focusing on ancient Jerusalem, was the first identify the steps leading into the Pool of Siloam from the time of Jesus. There is a wonderful article by Hershel Shanks'with numerous pictures'in the September 2005 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review (pp. 16-23). Much of archaeology is dominated by biblical minimalists who minimize the veracity of the biblical text and any evidence claimed to support it, but in spite of this there seems to be a constant flow of discoveries that support the biblical account. These two are particularly interesting. Sincerley Haanne
You're right, if a bunny came by my window, it could just be a coincidence. But if I had prayed, "God send a bunny outside my window," and then suddenly a bunny hopped by, I would certainly take that as evidence, because a) it's VERY coincidental that it happened just when I prayed, and
Hi again, Haanne. Thank you for your continued discussion
(haanne;55976)
Then It occurred to me that Some people are blessed with emotional intellect I can take my faith and my "experiences where prayers have been answered and revelations have been given" and run.
While I certainly respect what you have said here, I don't agree that there is such a thing as "emotional intellect." The simple fact of the matter is that our emotions can change quite rapidly. Sometimes we're up, sometimes we're down. Sometimes we feel things and we don't even know why. We cry for no apparent reason, we laugh for no apparent reason. This, to me, says that emotions are not really a solid basis for faith. If we are relying on "emotional intellect," then it seems to me like our faith would be in for a roller-coaster ride along with our emotions. What happens if your prayers don't get answered? What happens when a revelation is given that doesn't "come true," as it were? Then you must rely on, "Well sometimes God answers no," and "Oh well they must not have heard God right." These are justifications for when things don't turn out how we expect them to. But the point that I'm trying to make is that emotions are not a stable foundation for faith - it must be founded on reason in order to be secure.(haanne;55976)
My husband cannot. He needs hadrd core evidence something tangible he can hold onto. I think he is more Intellectual than I am . I hope you do not think I was being condescending or Rude when I said you would need more signs I just know my husband would. I admire that you are seeking this out . I think that God has a purpose in this for you and others as well. If your unbelief leads you to evidences that would not have otherwise been found and you help others as a result theres a greater purpose. I guess thats just a hypothetical but you see where I am going.
Don't worry, I took no offence, just as I hope you don't take offence to what I just said. I certainly hope that there is a purpose in this for me, but of course, since I am doubting God's existence, perhaps it is just me becoming "enlightened," if you will. Only time will tell, I suppose.(haanne;55976)
These things are interesting: Bullinger Signs in the stars, Dr. William Lane Reasonable faith (google it) and Dr. Douglas Jacoby http://www.douglasjacoby.com/ Check this out ...By John Clayton, Does God Exist? January/February 2006. Used by permission.)Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar believes she has found David's palace. A seal impression with the name of Jehudi, a palace officer, has been found in the ruins. Jeremiah 36 records a man by the same name. There will likely be a great deal of debate about this for a while, but it will turn out to be a monumental find if it holds up to further examination. Another incredible find is the Siloam Pool described in John 9:1-11, where Jesus healed the blind man. Ronny Reich, a leading archaeologist focusing on ancient Jerusalem, was the first identify the steps leading into the Pool of Siloam from the time of Jesus. There is a wonderful article by Hershel Shanks'with numerous pictures'in the September 2005 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review (pp. 16-23). Much of archaeology is dominated by biblical minimalists who minimize the veracity of the biblical text and any evidence claimed to support it, but in spite of this there seems to be a constant flow of discoveries that support the biblical account. These two are particularly interesting.
Thank you for the links and such - I have bookmarked a couple to look at later. However, the whole "signs in the stars" thing doesn't really do it for me. I don't think that there are any deep meanings behind some ancients' arbitrary connection of dots in the sky, although there can probably be meaning read into it.And in regards to David's palace, the Pool of Siloam, etc., these are very interesting, but I find them lacking. I have no doubt that in regards to at least most things, the Bible is fairly accurate historically. Perhaps not in all details, but of course we can never be sure of that until we've uncovered everything, which I don't think will ever really happen. At any rate, the problem is that historical accuracy does not imply theological accuracy. Certainly any human can write down accurate details about what is going on around him. It doesn't take divine inspiration to do that. But that means that proving the Bible true historically does not mean proving it true theologically. If I told you that a giant squid appeared to me in the sky and waved his tentacles at me while I was in New York City last fall, you would have no trouble believing that I had the possibility of really being in NYC last fall. Certainly the city existed last fall, and it exists today, so there is a possibility that I was there. But knowing the truth of that part of the statement would not entail the truth of the first part about the squid. You'd need a lot more evidence to believe me on that account than you would believing that I was in NYC. In the same way, people can believe that the Bible is true in most historical matters without believing that God exists, that Jesus died for our sins, that we are going to go to Heaven, etc. And these claims are a lot harder to prove.At any rate, after that long spiel, I would like to thank you once again for the links that I will look at later, and thanks for being patient with me and my doubts.
Then It occurred to me that Some people are blessed with emotional intellect I can take my faith and my "experiences where prayers have been answered and revelations have been given" and run.
While I certainly respect what you have said here, I don't agree that there is such a thing as "emotional intellect." The simple fact of the matter is that our emotions can change quite rapidly. Sometimes we're up, sometimes we're down. Sometimes we feel things and we don't even know why. We cry for no apparent reason, we laugh for no apparent reason. This, to me, says that emotions are not really a solid basis for faith. If we are relying on "emotional intellect," then it seems to me like our faith would be in for a roller-coaster ride along with our emotions. What happens if your prayers don't get answered? What happens when a revelation is given that doesn't "come true," as it were? Then you must rely on, "Well sometimes God answers no," and "Oh well they must not have heard God right." These are justifications for when things don't turn out how we expect them to. But the point that I'm trying to make is that emotions are not a stable foundation for faith - it must be founded on reason in order to be secure.(haanne;55976)
My husband cannot. He needs hadrd core evidence something tangible he can hold onto. I think he is more Intellectual than I am . I hope you do not think I was being condescending or Rude when I said you would need more signs I just know my husband would. I admire that you are seeking this out . I think that God has a purpose in this for you and others as well. If your unbelief leads you to evidences that would not have otherwise been found and you help others as a result theres a greater purpose. I guess thats just a hypothetical but you see where I am going.
Don't worry, I took no offence, just as I hope you don't take offence to what I just said. I certainly hope that there is a purpose in this for me, but of course, since I am doubting God's existence, perhaps it is just me becoming "enlightened," if you will. Only time will tell, I suppose.(haanne;55976)
These things are interesting: Bullinger Signs in the stars, Dr. William Lane Reasonable faith (google it) and Dr. Douglas Jacoby http://www.douglasjacoby.com/ Check this out ...By John Clayton, Does God Exist? January/February 2006. Used by permission.)Israeli archaeologist Eilat Mazar believes she has found David's palace. A seal impression with the name of Jehudi, a palace officer, has been found in the ruins. Jeremiah 36 records a man by the same name. There will likely be a great deal of debate about this for a while, but it will turn out to be a monumental find if it holds up to further examination. Another incredible find is the Siloam Pool described in John 9:1-11, where Jesus healed the blind man. Ronny Reich, a leading archaeologist focusing on ancient Jerusalem, was the first identify the steps leading into the Pool of Siloam from the time of Jesus. There is a wonderful article by Hershel Shanks'with numerous pictures'in the September 2005 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review (pp. 16-23). Much of archaeology is dominated by biblical minimalists who minimize the veracity of the biblical text and any evidence claimed to support it, but in spite of this there seems to be a constant flow of discoveries that support the biblical account. These two are particularly interesting.
Thank you for the links and such - I have bookmarked a couple to look at later. However, the whole "signs in the stars" thing doesn't really do it for me. I don't think that there are any deep meanings behind some ancients' arbitrary connection of dots in the sky, although there can probably be meaning read into it.And in regards to David's palace, the Pool of Siloam, etc., these are very interesting, but I find them lacking. I have no doubt that in regards to at least most things, the Bible is fairly accurate historically. Perhaps not in all details, but of course we can never be sure of that until we've uncovered everything, which I don't think will ever really happen. At any rate, the problem is that historical accuracy does not imply theological accuracy. Certainly any human can write down accurate details about what is going on around him. It doesn't take divine inspiration to do that. But that means that proving the Bible true historically does not mean proving it true theologically. If I told you that a giant squid appeared to me in the sky and waved his tentacles at me while I was in New York City last fall, you would have no trouble believing that I had the possibility of really being in NYC last fall. Certainly the city existed last fall, and it exists today, so there is a possibility that I was there. But knowing the truth of that part of the statement would not entail the truth of the first part about the squid. You'd need a lot more evidence to believe me on that account than you would believing that I was in NYC. In the same way, people can believe that the Bible is true in most historical matters without believing that God exists, that Jesus died for our sins, that we are going to go to Heaven, etc. And these claims are a lot harder to prove.At any rate, after that long spiel, I would like to thank you once again for the links that I will look at later, and thanks for being patient with me and my doubts.
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