Silence Of Women

[religusnut]

Although the Bible says

1Co 14:34

(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

We see this clearly and most denominations do not apply to this. What basis do they use to circumvent this teaching?

 

[aspen]

Although the Bible says 1Co 14:34(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. We see this clearly and most denominations do not apply to this. What basis do they use to circumvent this teaching?

The teaching is appropriate for uneducated people who were treated like property. A contemporary translation might be, 'everyone, please silence your cell phones during the service, thank you'.

Peace

 

[religusnut]

Although the Bible says 1Co 14:34(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. We see this clearly and most denominations do not apply to this. What basis do they use to circumvent this teaching?

The teaching is appropriate for uneducated people who were treated like property. A contemporary translation might be, 'everyone, please silence your cell phones during the service, thank you'.

Peace

So if the 1 Cor 14:34 is like silence your cell phones what is:


1Ti 2:12

(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Does that mean different from what it is saying in un educated ignorance too?

 

[aspen]

So if the 1 Cor 14:34 is like silence your cell phones what is:


1Ti 2:12

(12) But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.


Does that mean different from what it is saying in un educated ignorance too?

Same idea Women and children were property back then. If you were unable to control your property you were not considered to be in control of yourself or possessions. The same is true about this verse - it is not weird to keep an 8 year old from teaching an adult education class today. In the case of women - times have changed.

Peace

 

[religusnut]

Same idea Women and children were property back then. If you were unable to control your property you were not considered to be in control of yourself or possessions. The same is true about this verse - it is not weird to keep an 8 year old from teaching an adult education class today. In the case of women - times have changed.

Peace

I understand that times have changed. Nobody will debate that one. The questions here are not times changing but in whether we changed from what the Bible teaches.

With all of that said what about the verses that tell a woman to be in submission to her husband? Are those just archaic things that are not relevant today because times have changed?

 

[aspen]

I understand that times have changed. Nobody will debate that one. The questions here are not times changing but in whether we changed from what the Bible teaches.


I certainly hope that we are able to be flexible enough in our thinking and theology to realize that the Word of God is a living document and therefore still relevant to all ages; even when culture changes, our roles in society. We are all still people and are still called to love no matter if it is appropriate for some to talk in church or not., or wear our hair long or cover our heads - none of these things are commands - they are simply snap shots of a dynamic culture across time.

With all of that said what about the verses that tell a woman to be in submission to her husband? Are those just archaic things that are not relevant today because times have changed?


They are certainly relevant today! What is submission? It is love. Men are called to love their wives like Christ loves the church - Christ loves the Church through submission - servant-hood. Paul is calling men and women to love each other using different terms to mean the same thing. We have gotten all wrapped up in the specific wording, but the fact is, we are just supposed to love each other - it has nothing to do with who is in charge. Wondering about who is in charge is like the disciples asking who the greatest among them is. Paul would not have to tell a first century man that he was in charge of his property - instead, he was actually elevating the role of the wife to the level of partner.


Peace

 

[religusnut]

I understand that times have changed. Nobody will debate that one. The questions here are not times changing but in whether we changed from what the Bible teaches.


I certainly hope that we are able to be flexible enough in our thinking and theology to realize that the Word of God is a living document and therefore still relevant to all ages; even when culture changes, our roles in society. We are all still people and are still called to love no matter if it is appropriate for some to talk in church or not., or wear our hair long or cover our heads - none of these things are commands - they are simply snap shots of a dynamic culture across time.

With all of that said what about the verses that tell a woman to be in submission to her husband? Are those just archaic things that are not relevant today because times have changed?


They are certainly relevant today! What is submission? It is love. Men are called to love their wives like Christ loves the church - Christ loves the Church through submission - servant-hood. Paul is calling men and women to love each other using different terms to mean the same thing. We have gotten all wrapped up in the specific wording, but the fact is, we are just supposed to love each other - it has nothing to do with who is in charge. Wondering about who is in charge is like the disciples asking who the greatest among them is. Paul would not have to tell a first century man that he was in charge of his property - instead, he was actually elevating the role of the wife to the level of partner.


Peace

Actually the Bible tells the man to love is wife as Christ loved the Church. He laid down his life for the Church. It tells the wife to submit to her husband. The man is the one that will be held accountable for the leadership role of his house. Adam's major problem was he did not protect Eve.

Everything God does is done with authority. The husband is the figure of authority in his house. When that is circumvented in the household it will always bring about trouble.

 

[aspen]

So why are you asking me the question if you already have an answer?

 

[whirlwind]

Although the Bible says

1Co 14:34

(34) Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.

We see this clearly and most denominations do not apply to this. What basis do they use to circumvent this teaching?

Perhaps their basis to circumvent the above is the use of their BRAINS and ability to read. :lol:


Paul first wrote....

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.​

:lol: ​

Paul often speaks with irony...the above was one of those times for he followed it with....

14:36-37 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.​

There you have it. :) A total knock down to the good ol' guys trying to keep the little woman quiet and in line to the big, strong, know-it-all-self appointed prophets of the world. Did the Word come from them? Did God only speak to them? ;) Paul understood that not all men would agree with that so he said....

14:38-40 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.​

Brethren would include all believers, male and female. All should "covet to prophesy."


.

 

[religusnut]

Perhaps their basis to circumvent the above is the use of their BRAINS and ability to read. :lol:


Paul first wrote....

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.​

:lol: ​

Paul often speaks with irony...the above was one of those times for he followed it with....

14:36-37 What? came the word of God out from you? or came it unto you only? If any man think himself to be a prophet, or spiritual, let him acknowledge that the things that I write unto you are the commandments of the Lord.​

There you have it. :) A total knock down to the good ol' guys trying to keep the little woman quiet and in line to the big, strong, know-it-all-self appointed prophets of the world. Did the Word come from them? Did God only speak to them? ;) Paul understood that not all men would agree with that so he said....

14:38-40 But if any man be ignorant, let him be ignorant. Wherefore, brethren, covet to prophesy, and forbid not to speak with tongues. Let all things be done decently and in order.​

Brethren would include all believers, male and female. All should "covet to prophesy."


.

So you are saying that we should use our brains instead of our Bibles to determine what is right and what is wrong?

 

[aspen]

Good post Whirlwind and great point - I learned something new.

religusnut - I am confused - seems as if you invite discourse on the scriptures, but when people take you up on your offer and provide thoughtful commentary, you dismiss it as an invalid use of human reason; yet when others provide scripture and greater context, you continue to dismiss it as human reason? I am not sure what you are looking for - is it possible that you are not really looking for discussion, but instead providing isolated verses simply as declarations of truth? If this is your intention, why not say so? It would save a lot of wasted reasoning.

Peace

 

[religusnut]

Good post Whirlwind and great point - I learned something new.

religusnut - I am confused - seems as if you invite discourse on the scriptures, but when people take you up on your offer and provide thoughtful commentary, you dismiss it as an invalid use of human reason; yet when others provide scripture and greater context, you continue to dismiss it as human reason? I am not sure what you are looking for - is it possible that you are not really looking for discussion, but instead providing isolated verses simply as declarations of truth? If this is your intention, why not say so? It would save a lot of wasted reasoning.

Peace

Actually I do not discount anything said. There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here. I wholeheartedly agree that the Word of God is alive. I do however believe that it never changes just cause society changes. For instance society in America now for a very large part believes that homosexuality is ok. Just becasue roles in society change does not necessarily mean that the Word of God changed with it..........

This is one of those topics that I have dropped on me continuously as a teacher as I go into various places. Personally I understand and by the way agree with major parts of what was mentioned above as far as women...... I understand who the women were in the NT. Priscilla for instance was a co-laborer with her husband and Paul. Philip had four daughters that prophesied. I understand that they can't be silent and prophesy at the same time. I understand that in the last days even the hand maiden will prophesy............

I also see that there are many situations around us in everyday life that have used women to push a liberal feminist agenda that is definitely anti-God. I also believe that submission is based on love but I also understand when the role of leadership is flipped in the lives of people that it presents confusion. Anything with more than one head is a freak and anything without a head is dead. There are some things that God set into place always have been and always will be. Headship and authority are two things that if one ever goes into the deeper things of the spirit world one had better understand or the outcome will not be pretty.

Every post we read will grow our knowledge pool.

 

[Templar81]

What about women keeping their heads covered in chruch, I've seen it done in the Orthodox chruch but nowhere else.

 

[aspen]

Actually I do not discount anything said. There is a wealth of knowledge to be gained here. I wholeheartedly agree that the Word of God is alive. I do however believe that it never changes just cause society changes. For instance society in America now for a very large part believes that homosexuality is ok. Just becasue roles in society change does not necessarily mean that the Word of God changed with it..........

This is one of those topics that I have dropped on me continuously as a teacher as I go into various places. Personally I understand and by the way agree with major parts of what was mentioned above as far as women...... I understand who the women were in the NT. Priscilla for instance was a co-laborer with her husband and Paul. Philip had four daughters that prophesied. I understand that they can't be silent and prophesy at the same time. I understand that in the last days even the hand maiden will prophesy............

I also see that there are many situations around us in everyday life that have used women to push a liberal feminist agenda that is definitely anti-God. I also believe that submission is based on love but I also understand when the role of leadership is flipped in the lives of people that it presents confusion. Anything with more than one head is a freak and anything without a head is dead. There are some things that God set into place always have been and always will be. Headship and authority are two things that if one ever goes into the deeper things of the spirit world one had better understand or the outcome will not be pretty.

Every post we read will grow our knowledge pool.

I really appreciate your response. I enjoy dialog - we all have a lot to learn - I was just making sure that I wasn't spending a lot of time answering you posts if you were not interested. Sorry, but I have been posting on boards like this one for years and have run into all kinds of people who ask leading questions for the sole purpose of preaching their own answer - which I do not have a problem with either - I just want them to drop the pretenses and get to the point.

I am looking forward to more discussions

Peace

 

[whirlwind]

So you are saying that we should use our brains instead of our Bibles to determine what is right and what is wrong?

No. I am saying read all of His Word. You stopped a verse too short to glean the correct understanding of Paul's teaching.


.

 

[aspen]

I wholeheartedly agree that the Word of God is alive. I do however believe that it never changes just cause society changes.

I agree that it never changes; however, it is also rich and deep enough to speak to all ages. Because of this, it may appear that verses are changing in meaning, when actually they are simply taking on a fuller meaning as the centuries unfold.


For instance society in America now for a very large part believes that homosexuality is ok. Just becasue roles in society change does not necessarily mean that the Word of God changed with it..........

Homosexuality is a very complex issue. I think we are just now understanding the few verses about homosexuality completely. Which brings up another issue, due to increased and improved Biblical scholarship we are understanding the Bible better than we have since the first and second centuries. Here is an example - Moses is depicted by Michaelangelo with horns on his head in the Sistine Chapel because the word for "halo" was commonly believed to be the word for "horns" - you can see how this could be a problem.

This is one of those topics that I have dropped on me continuously as a teacher as I go into various places. Personally I understand and by the way agree with major parts of what was mentioned above as far as women...... I understand who the women were in the NT. Priscilla for instance was a co-laborer with her husband and Paul. Philip had four daughters that prophesied. I understand that they can't be silent and prophesy at the same time. I understand that in the last days even the hand maiden will prophesy............

The first evangelists were women - the women at the Tomb. One of the issues facing us today is that past cultural ideas about men and womens roles in society / homosexuality may have influenced our traditional understanding scripture, as well.

I also see that there are many situations around us in everyday life that have used women to push a liberal feminist agenda that is definitely anti-God.

Like?

I also believe that submission is based on love but I also understand when the role of leadership is flipped in the lives of people that it presents confusion. Anything with more than one head is a freak and anything without a head is dead. There are some things that God set into place always have been and always will be. Headship and authority are two things that if one ever goes into the deeper things of the spirit world one had better understand or the outcome will not be pretty.

I've been married for 15 years and my wife is an equal partner. We consult and submit to one another out of mutual respect and love. I consider her more knowledgeable about some issues of spirituality and she believes the same in regards to me. She handles the finances because we decided early on that we would like to be fiscally responsible. I handle other areas in an equal division of labor.

Once again, times have changed and the breadth of the meaning of the entire Bible is large enough to speak to people in all time periods.

Peace

 

[Duckybill]

It is perfectly clear that Christian women are to submit to their husbands. Actually the command that women are to be silent is TO THE WOMEN. It is their choices to obey or not. I do not believe the command is absolute. The men in the church have God's authority to tell women to be silent if need be. But again, are they gonna use gags? So basically, the ball is 'in the womens' courts' to obey or not. Yes, I realize that today's liberated women will rebel against God's authority, but Godly women won't be a problem in church. Did I mention that all the Apostles and writers of the NT were men?

 

[JarBreaker]

The teaching is appropriate for uneducated people who were treated like property. A contemporary translation might be, 'everyone, please silence your cell phones during the service, thank you'.

Peace



UNBELIEVABLE !!

gonna be air stewards on the rapture bus too I imagine ?


"please keep your hands and arms inside at all times, please recline your seatback to the upright position ..."

I also see that there are many situations around us in everyday life that have used women to push a liberal feminist agenda that is definitely anti-God.

Like?

how about Gloria Steinem.

I was just a little tike back in those days ... maybe there were a lot of female pastors back then and the media just keeps that fact hidden ?

I've been married for 15 years and my wife is an equal partner. We consult and submit to one another out of mutual respect and love. I consider her more knowledgeable about some issues of spirituality and she believes the same in regards to me. She handles the finances because we decided early on that we would like to be fiscally responsible. I handle other areas in an equal division of labor.

SUBMIT does not work both ways ... do wedding vows make it seem this way now ?

What about Genesis, "man shall leave mother and father and join to his wife and become as one flesh"

jump back a verse,

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man.


she was TAKEN OUT OF man ...


Dont take my comments and paint a picture of a caveman dragging his club on the ground.

Equal division of responsibilities really has nothing to do with this, either.

I never heard marriage vows include "and she shall wash dishes but doth surely I shall dry ..."


I kinda like you, you let me use fun metaphors.

 

[aspen]

I am sorry you didn't like my analogy. I think you might be taking Paul a bit literally if you think women are the same today as they were in Roman / Jewish / Greek culture 2000 years ago.
how about Gloria Steinem.

What about her? It usually takes a strong person to make needed changes in a culture - did she go too far? I don't know - she is married to a man now and women are still underpaid in our culture......


I was just a little tike back in those days ... maybe there were a lot of female pastors back then and the media just keeps that fact hidden ?

Depends on the church you go to. I am Catholic and there is a huge shortage of priests, but a whole amount of women that volunteer to run our churches, yet they are not allowed to be deacons or priests........the whole situation seems archaic to me.

SUBMIT does not work both ways ... do wedding vows make it seem this way now ?

Of course it does! What does submit mean? It means serve......we are all called to serve like Christ serves us. Submit = serve = love. Paul is telling men to love their wifes and wives to love their husbands - same thing, different wording.

What about Genesis, "man shall leave mother and father and join to his wife and become as one flesh"

Sounds pretty equal too me. How do you find the leader in a unit of one?

jump back a verse,

Gen 2:23
And Adam said, This [is] now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. she was TAKEN OUT OF man ...

Ever notice it has been reversed ever since? So does this mean that now women are the head?

Dont take my comments and paint a picture of a caveman dragging his club on the ground.

Your past the caveman stage....

Equal division of responsibilities really has nothing to do with this, either.

I never heard marriage vows include "and she shall wash dishes but doth surely I shall dry ..."

Agreed.


I kinda like you, you let me use fun metaphors.

Excellent!

 

[Selene]

Hello Religusnut,

1 Corinthians 14:34 is interpreted to mean that women are not allowed to teach in Church or in the Assembly. This biblical verse is aligned with 1 Ti. 2:12. St. Paul DO allow women to speak in Church because in 1 Corinthians 11:5, it shows that a woman can pray and prophesy in Church or in the Assembly. Therefore, they are allowed to speak. Women were not allowed to teach because this role only belong to the bishops, priests, and deacons who are men. In the bible, there were no female bishops, priests, or deacons. They are all men. Women were not allowed to become bishops, priests, or deacons.

However, women are allowed to participate in the ministry of the Church but they are not allowed to teach in the Church. They are to remain silent on this. I am a Minister of the Word (which is also called a Lector). As a minister of the Word, I can only read the readings in the Bible, but I cannot give a homily, which is considered a "teaching." On the other hand, I am allowed to teach and even evangelize outside the Church. I cannot give a homily or teach inside the Church because I am a female. Only the priest has that role of teaching in the Church.

In Christ,
Selene