Sinless Perfection. Why do so many teach against what Jesus taught?

[Episkopos]

I was just thinking that I have been so selfish to thank God that He didnt let you remain so that I could be helped. And I thought that my prayer needs to be that He take you again so you can speak what you’ve been given in power. But then my selfishness comes in again because if He were to take you again, men wouldnt just yell and rant at you but would literally seek to kill you.

You have a humble attitude. But other people come here with nothing thinking they can teach others. Which is the height of foolishness. What they are actually trying to do is get confirmation for their theories....and they will argue tooth and nail, because they think everyone is like them.....holding onto an opinion.

All we can do is try explaining the truth in a balanced and precise way....and then letting them try to tear it apart.

For me, it's helpful to learn how to explain the truth better in a way that goes directly after the issue that stops them from seeing. When I perceive that this has been done....that the truth would have reached any HONEST seeker....then I have to leave them to God. If THEY want to go over what was conveyed to them...that's up to them.

 

[MostlyConfused]

This is still the gospel of justification by the merit of your works. You just added more work to the standard that must be achieved to be justified by that work. And, as I said, it does nothing about the guilt of your past sins.

No, no, I didn’t add more work. Holiness is not up to us and God eventually gives us a choice to count the cost and either agree to go on further for the hope we have or to settle for what is good and acceptable and see that we aren’t willing to lay down our entire life. I’m not even sure that’s always the end of the matter. It may be that’s a step or stage rather than a settling. Learning to do righteousness is not a bad place and since we don’t determine if we are chosen, it seems wise to just settle there and build houses and be grateful and peaceable and leave all in His hands.

 

[Judge Hardcastle]

This is exactly what Episkopos teaches. Exactly.

The problem is he says the righteousness of faith is living faithfully. That's only part of the picture.

The righteousness that comes by faith means being declared righteous by having faith in God's forgiveness that wipes your record clean of the guilt of your unrighteousness. That's the important meaning he discards as 'self-justification'. He is free to elaborate on, or correct my understanding of his argument as he sees fit.

 

[ProDeo]

The problem with your gospel is you make justification contingent on actually being righteous in behavior - what you call 'holiness'. If justification is determined solely on your holy behavior you will never have the declaration of right standing with God that you need to get into the kingdom of God, because you are not always holy in behavior.

Born again people know this. That's why they are born again. They came to the end of themselves knowing they can't always live up to the righteous standard of behavior required by God for him to declare them righteous. And so, like the tax collector in Luke 18:13, they have cast themselves on God's mercy, openly confessing their unrighteousness, and God in his mercy has forgiven them and given them a declaration of right standing with him as a free gift of his grace.

You can't be born again until you honestly realize you can't get from here to there on the merit of your righteous behavior because you're not always righteous in behavior. The guilt of your unrighteous behavior doesn't go away just because you determine not to continue in that unrighteousness. It's always there on your record as a matter of historical fact.

God is just. The just and lawful penalty for sin must be administered. Born again people know this and believe God's word that Jesus absorbed that penalty into himself in their place on the cross and that he will forgive the guilt of their unrighteousness and make them legally righteous in his sight as a free gift of his grace if they'll believe and trust in that grace. And that he also gives the Holy Spirit to transform them and give them power over the sin that condemned them. And as children of God, they learn to use that power as they grow and mature in knowledge.

You can only get from here to there by the mercy of God's forgiveness which wipes away the unrighteousness that keeps you distant from him and unable to enter the kingdom. Your record of unrighteousness will always stand in the way until it is forgiven by God. You receive that forgiveness by having faith in his word that he will forgive you through the forgiveness he has made available through the blood sacrifice of Jesus. Sin is atoned for through blood, because the just penalty for the sin of mankind is death. You can either pay that penalty yourself and die for your own sins or accept God's free offer to let Jesus' death on the cross be the just payment for your sins. Born again people have chosen the latter.

Great post Judge, you are addressing what is often missing in this kind of holiness discussions, the work of the Holy Spirit within a born again Christian. Revealing sin and enabling us to overcome that particular sin. The process of Sanctification leading to holiness. Reviewing my Christian life in Christ it is only the work of the Holy Spirit. There is no boasting, without the Holy Spirit I am nothing.

 

[Lizbeth]

There is the righteousness of law, and there is the righteousness that is by faith.

Amen. And in rightly dividing the word we need to understand which righteousness the Lord is referring to in any given passage. One's own righteousness or the righteousness of God.

 

[MostlyConfused]

But other people come here with nothing thinking they can teach others. Which is the height of foolishness. What they are actually trying to do is get confirmation for their theories....and they will argue tooth and nail, because they think everyone is like them.....holding onto an opinion.

I was pondering this last night when I read, if you were blind you would have no sin. It’s that they lied and said they could see that was the sin…

 

[Episkopos]

I was pondering this last night when I read, if you were blind you would have no sin. It’s that they lied and said they could see that was the sin…

Amen...the sin of iniquity based on pride and presumption. The sin is SOO DEEP that they think correcting them IS the pride and presumption. It's hard to imagine being more deceived than that.

If there were more honest people, like the Bereans, who search out the scriptures in a prayerful way, the forum would be a far more inviting place. As it is the monkeys have taken over the zoo.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You have testified willful adultery, meaning sin to death, = eternal death.

I don't follow.

It was the sin I couldn't turn away from by myself. When I finally turned the whole matter over to Jesus, that was what true repentance meant, and Jesus took away all desire to commit adultery, making me born again of the Spirit, and I was not only saved, but I was filled with God's presence. Many people go to church just like I did, knowing about Jesus, but not having Him inside of us, empowering us. I wasn't saved yet. And neither are they.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

I'm not sure what you mean by your question, but our sins are forgiven and cleansed and we are given a fresh new start, and placed on the path of righteousness by the Lord, going in a new direction than we were previously.

What part of you is cleansed? Do you believe like millions of Christians that you still have a sin nature?

 

[MostlyConfused]

The problem is he says the righteousness of faith is living faithfully. That's only part of the picture.

There are two levels. I think I can see that you DO see that by what you’ve written. The first level is not without faith (trust). It is to fear God, do right to others and to trust in His mercy. That is the first level of “from faith to faith.”
That is not the faith that can move mountains. But neither does God find that meek behavior unacceptable. Those of us who are there (me included) count on Him being merciful and making a place for us.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The Holy Spirit will tell you what sin is, Jesus said so.

That is why 1 John 3:9 does not have the word "practice" in it, that was added. Once we are born again of the Spirit, all we have to do is follow our super-sensitized conscience. It is the power in "power steering."

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Close.
Why does it matter to you?

I'm curious which denomination would scoff.

 

[MostlyConfused]

Amen. And in rightly dividing the word we need to understand which righteousness the Lord is referring to in any given passage. One's own righteousness or the righteousness of God.

That’s right. Not seeing that makes us jumble them together and get in such an awful muddle. But this is what Episkopos teaches.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

The problem is he says the righteousness of faith is living faithfully. That's only part of the picture.

The righteousness that comes by faith means being declared righteous by having faith in God's forgiveness that wipes your record clean of the guilt of your unrighteousness. That's the important meaning he discards as 'self-justification'. He is free to elaborate on, or correct my understanding of his argument as he sees fit.

The core of the issue is the sin nature. Do you believe you do not have a sin nature, or did Jesus leave it intact when he cleansed you? If so, what did He cleanse?

 

[Lizbeth]

There is the righteousness of law, and there is the righteousness that is by faith.

Just posting these scriptures:

Rom 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Rom 10:3
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

2Co 5:21
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Phl 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[Lizbeth]

Amen...the sin of iniquity based on pride and presumption. The sin is SOO DEEP that they think correcting them IS the pride and presumption. It's hard to imagine being more deceived than that.

If there were more honest people, like the Bereans, who search out the scriptures in a prayerful way, the forum would be a far more inviting place. As it is the monkeys have taken over the zoo.

You are sadly preaching against having faith in the GOSPEL Episkopos. I will leave it to the Lord to judge who the monkeys are around here.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

You are sadly preaching against having faith in the GOSPEL Episkopos. I will leave it to the Lord to judge who the monkeys are around here.

The gospel is the power of God. Power to be what?

 

[ProDeo]

Too late. I have been twice translated into Zion to walk where Jesus is.

Can you tell us about that experience, for instance -

. Did you see Jesus ?

. Did Jesus say anything to you ?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Can you tell us about that experience, for instance -

. Did you see Jesus ?

. Did Jesus say anything to you ?

I want to hear it too

 

[Lizbeth]

What part of you is cleansed? Do you believe like millions of Christians that you still have a sin nature?

I believe the sin nature (old man) has been crucified....but that it is still possible to walk in it, in different degrees or at different times, in spite of that reality. What is taking place on "earth" doesn't always reflect what has taken place in heaven, the spiritual/heavenly reality.....that is why we are to walk by faith not by sight. And why Jesus' prayer to the Father involves asking that God's will be done on earth AS it is in heaven. We are to bring what has been accomplished for us in heaven, down to our earth....apprehend it. All things HAVE been put under the feet of Jesus, but we do not yet SEE all things put under Him....we are still in process of putting enemies under our/His feet. After I received Jesus I almost immediately discerned/felt an inner battle set up in me. Not about anything specific to my knowledge, but just a kind of overall state. Spirit began warring against the flesh and flesh against the Spirit. Thank you Jesus for your Spirit.