Sinless Perfection?

[haz]

Hi haz,

Do you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 5? I think not, so, I'm going to share from Young's Literal Translation.


Romans 5:12 '... even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death;

and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin; ​

13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;

14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,

who is a type of him who is coming.​

Looking at verse 13 first, Paul is repeating what he mentioned in Romans 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression. So, I agree with you that Paul did say that where there is no law, no sin is being recorded against us.



Happy now?



Here's the bad news.


If you read Rom 5:12 and Rom 5:14 properly, you will note that the whole of mankind was dead in sin - dead to God - during that era. Paul is not talking about Christians at all!!



Still happy?



Hopefully, you are beginning to see a problem with using Rom 4:15 and Rom 5:13 to back up the claim you and others (notably Kidron) have been making - that because the Mosaic Law has been abolished (I'm just restating your case. Don't mistake that for agreement with your reasoning.) - no Christian can be convicted of sinning anymore. I hope you will never again be quite as misinformed as you have been to date.



To recap the key point in Rom 5:12: it states that through one man - Adam - the sin entered the world. At the moment he died through having eaten the forbidden fruit, all Adam's unborn children died 'in his loins'. Young gives this death the definite article, because it's a noun.

Thus, when we are born, we are (as good as) dead with respect to the [eternal] life.

Adam lost for us all, the freedom to eat of the tree of the life (and live for ever).

You will note as you read Paul, that he often mentions the resurrection of Christ, or, the resurrection which we hope to attain to, just after he's mentioned the cross. The two are inextricably linked, and Paul is looking ahead to the resurrection of believers, and, that if we are truly identified with Christ in this life, that we will face tribulation and suffering for His Name's sake. This is the gospel.

Acts 26:6, 7, 8; Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, Rom 8:17, 18, Phil 1:29, 1 Peter 1:11, 1 Peter 4:13, I Peter 5:1.


Now, let's look at Romans 6:

1 What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?
2 let it not be! we who died to the sin--how shall we still live in it?

3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead

through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk. ​

5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;
6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless,

for our no longer serving the sin; ​

7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
8 And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,

9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him has no more lordship;
10 for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he lives, he liveth to God;

11 so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.

12 Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;

13 neither present ye your members instruments of unrighteousness to the sin,

but present yourselves to God as living out of the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God; ​

Paul has just explained how to get free from 'the sin' so as to become free from 'the [eternal] death'. Can you see that?



Moving on -

14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.

Here we have law and grace in the same sentence. What do they have to do with getting free from the sin and the death?

As you know, the Mosaic Law brought sins to the conscious attention of Israel. Nevertheless, it was possible to acknowledge one's sins - the outworking of 'the sin' in one's life - by making certain sacrifices and keep many commandments.

These rituals were supposed to make a person understand their incapability to overcome 'the sin' which they found in themselves. The Mosaic Law existed to show them their deadness in 'the sin', and that it was impossible to escape from 'the sin'.

Even those who committed sins which incurred the death penalty under the Mosaic Law, only hastened the natural outcome of their life (being dead in 'the sin') - namely, 'the death'.



So.... what is the grace?

According to Paul, it is a quality of the life in Jesus Christ, which, when He interacts with us personally, enables us to be changed or to change.



Let's think about changing for a minute. Why should we change at all?

The simple answer is, because Adam changed the parameters of our relationship with God, and we need a way to remove those changes, so we are not facing God's wrath for 'the sin' in our lives any more; ideally, we'd also receive freedom to eat of the tree of life again.

What I mean is, we need to find ourselves changed so radically, that we no longer have not alternative but to commit sins. Thus we would find ourselves in favour with God again, just as Adam had been before he sinned. Is that possible?




Well, if it would be possible to escape God's wrath against sinners, it would indeed seem like an irresistable offer. But how?


How do I get that grace to be effective in my life?


What I'm trying to show you is, if you understand the problem thoroughly, then you will understand the thorough solution to the problem. Let me rephrase Young's translation of 14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.

For the sin shall not have lordship over you once you are - not under law, but - under grace. 2 Timothy 2:5



What Paul tried to show in the first part of Rom 6, is that Christ took 'the sin' of the whole of mankind to the cross, and through His own death, He slew it for ever. It is finished. HE remained under the Mosaic Law on our behalf, taking the penalty for our sins.

In this respect, the law of the death for the sin became abolished only for those who choose to receive His death against their own sinful nature. Rom 6:3, 4, 6, 7.

2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus,

that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. ​

Where the grace of God comes in is, that as He raised Jesus Christ from the dead by His awesome power, He is equally able to raise us from 'the death' which through Christ's death is made null and void to us, that His life may be made manifest - seeable, knowable.

Ephesians 1:19 'and what the exceeding greatness of His power to us who are believing,
according to the working of the power of His might 20 which He wrought in the Christ, having raised him out of the dead,

Paul refers to this grace in Eph 3:7 again, explaining that it is the power which enables him to fulfil God's calling on his life.

Paul returns to the rhetorical question he asked at the start of the chapter -

15 What then? shall we sin because we are 'not under law but under grace'? let it not be!

In the next part, he makes the case for actively living in the ways which please God to demonstrate that the principle of 'the sin', which had held us bound to 'the death', has not just been destroyed Heb 2:14,15, but has dynamically replaced by the power of Christ's eternal life.


16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin

to death, or of obedience to righteousness? ​

17 and thanks to God, that ye were servants of the sin, and--were obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up;
18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.

19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants

to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness--to the lawlessness, ​

so now present your members servants to the righteousness-- to sanctification, ​

20 for when ye were servants of the sin, ye were free from the righteousness,
21 what fruit, therefore, were ye having then, in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those [is] death.

22 And now, having been freed from the sin,

and having become servants to God, ​

ye have your fruit--to sanctification, ​

and the end life age-during; ​

23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.



Paul fully expects to see a dynamically changed lifestyle once a person is 'under grace'. It is most certainly not a notional righteousness.

The believer who has genuinely been grafted into the death of Christ, is free from the law of sin and death.

But, unless they live as if they are free from the law of sin and death, by not sinning - as a practical expression of having been filled to overflowing with the resurrection life of Christ, not only God, but anyone who knows them, is fully entitled to form their own conclusions, that ... they are still in bondage to sin.

Hi dragonfly,

Such a looongg post !!

Now, Rom 4:15 where no law is , there is no transgression.

I agree Rom 5:12,14 says sin/death was in the world since Adam. All unrighteousness is sin (1John 5:17) and all mankind since Adam was unrighteous.
And how do we become righteous? Either we perfectly keep the law of righteousness (aka law of sin and death, 10 commandments) OR we believe God's promise of salvation, believing on Jesus and obtaining the righteousness which is of God through the faith of Christ.

Now Christ is the end of he law for righteousness to everyone that believes Rom 10:4

NOW, in Christ we are righteous. We don't become righteous through the law now. That method of becoming righteous has ENDED.
And note how Rom 4 speaks of righteousness by faith.
Rom 4:3 “Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.

Rom 4:5-8 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [sup] [/sup]just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

[sup] [/sup]“Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

So in Rom 4:15 we see that 'the law brings about wrath'. Anyone seeking to be perfected by the flesh (instead of by faith) will be found a transgressor and face wrath.
But, where there is no law there is no transgression. Christians are imputed with righteousness in Christ. We are not under the law to obtain righteousness, hence there is no trangression.

Rom 4 sets the context of righteousness by faith as opposed to the law. Rom 4:15 only confirms John 8:36, Rom 6:7, 1John 3:9, 1Pet 4:1 how we have been set free from sin, ceased from sin, being in Christ.

 

[Webers_Home]

.

I see no duality of natures in one who is given a new heart.

The new heart is new; from scratch-- not the old heart repaired, upgraded,
renovated, or rejuvenated.

You honestly cannot see two distinct natures in the statements below-- a
nature that's 110% sinful alongside a nature that's 110% sinless?

†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a
liar, and His word is not in us.

†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

The difficulty you're having discerning the two natures is very common with
not only ordinary Christians; but also with inexperienced born-again Christians;
who are typically unaware that their old self wasn't replaced by a new self
when they underwent regeneration as per John 3:3-8. No, their old self is
still on board, and will stay on board with them till their earthen body's
demise: which makes death actually something to look forward to rather
than dread.

it is a great disservice to Christians to imply they are Schizophrenic.

My comments do not pertain to the spiritual condition of your average rank and
file Christian; but are strictly limited to the ones that have undergone regeneration
as per John 3:3-8; viz: born-again Christians.

I've seen the movie "A Beautiful Mind" and seriously doubt schizophrenia even remotely
characterizes a regenerated Christian.

†. 2Tim 1:7 . . God has given us the spirit of a sound mind.

Cliff
/

 

[mark s]

Yes you've missed something for sure.
So you continue to accuse others of sin eh mark? What a hard heart and deaf ears you have.

Hi WS,

I hear very well, thank you, and you continue to bear false witness against me. And your ad hominem arguments grow tiresome.

Copy and paste where they continue to sin as you do because yes, I missed that.

Perhaps you need to read a bit more carefully.

No, I have no problem understanding 1 Jo 3:2 or Col 3 that speak of appearing in Glory with Christ.

Were this true, you would understand that they are unconditional statements, aside from the single condition of being reborn as God's child. Yet you reject that. Therefore, you reject Scripture.

1John 3:2 "Dear friends, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet been revealed. We know that whenever it is revealed we will be like him, because we will see him just as he is."

The conditions you place on people do not appear, they are added.

, or that last step will never happen.

That last step is promised by God to happen.

If you still sin Mark, as you say you do, then I repeat, you have no authority to open your mouth and speak let alone teach your sin bound doctrine of the devil. You simply need to cease worrying about someone else's sin and start worrying about your own.
And I haven't seen that yet...

And in this your hypocrisy is evident. For you are the only one here who claims to not sin. Everyone else who has posted has acknowledge sin. Yet you excuse it in those who agree with your doctrine, yet condemn it in those who do not.

Therefore, you condemnation is against not those who commit sins, but against those who disagree with your doctrine. I do not accuse them of sin. They confess to sin, just as I do.

This isn't the issue here Mark. Please try to keep up.


Where does it become confusing here?? Mark? Why can't you stay with the topic?

Christ's righteousness in us performing righteousness. That is our topic.


We "doing" righteousness in us by our own works. That is not our topic.

Hello??

You sarcasm, mocking, and general arrogance do not bear witness of Christ's love.

Perhaps you will recall that I posted the OP, which means likely have an idea of the topic.

From the OP:

Why do I bring this up?

Of course, to draw those who teach that true, Spirit-Filled Christians, have attained to Sinless Perfection. The Bible does not teach that, but there are those here who do.

This thread is to show the error in your teaching. To bring it into the light, where everyone can see it, understand it, and understand how the Bible refutes it.

Yours in a ministry of condemnation, condemning those whom God does not condemn.

Your primary argument against your opponents is to repeat endlessly how evil and how sinful those who disagree with you are, and you continue to condemn them, by you words based on their committing even ONE sin, but by your actions, sin is excused in those who agree to your doctrine.

From the OP:

Have you sinned after being born again? Does that sin somehow disqualify you from salvation? Here is what the Bible says:

1 John 3:2 ESV

"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."

If you have been born again, then you WILL be like him when you see him. And everyone will see him.

Need another?

Colossians 3:1-4 ESV

If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth. For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.

Simple as that!

The only people here attempting to sabotage the conversation are those who falsely accuse Epi and Prentiss and Dragonfly and Axehead and myself, of "doing righteousness by our own works".
None of us can do righteousness by our own works and we all agree so please Mark, try to focus on the actual topic? What do you say?

The topic is, "Sinless Perfection" as the OP states, and we who are speaking intelligently of this know that it is only Christ's Righteousness in us that can produce "sinless perfection", we have no righteousness of our own. Please try to understand this.

Sabotage the conversation? This IS the conversation.

They are immediately recognized by their harsh words and false accusations and terrible destructive manner of mishandling scriptures, and especially in their pride, making these discussions as though they were a 'contest' and through much words and snide remarks, they think they are elevated above these men.

Do you truly not see yourself in these words??


You wrote:
Those who think that this time is just a time of "grace" by which Christ doesn't actually transform anything in us or about our thoughts words and deeds into His Righteousness, are either ignorant, or false prophets. Ignorance doesn't prevent one from learning. But being a false prophet and bearing false witness of the brethren, and ALSO accuse those who REJOICE in the big changes of our thoughts words and deeds, such people show forth a "character" or "mark" of personality that is destined to the destruction as intended.
I hope you repent Mark. You argue against the saints simply for the sake of fulfilling your own destiny of false accusations and filled with shame and guilt from the sins you can't help but commit. Your intent is altogether ulterior toward sin. By your own words. You also teach others they can't avoid sin. You are a false teacher in that.
Your end is assurred unless you repent of your sins.

Because I claim, according to Scripture, to be forgiven of my sin, you accuse that my intent is toward sin. This is a logical fallacy. I claim that Christians sometimes commit sins, and you frame that as though I say Christ changes us not at all. Another logical fallacy.

You claim that I say my intent is towards sin. Not only is that absurd, but it is blatantly not true. It is a false witness, and is, itself sin.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Hepzibah]

Yet you excuse it in those who agree with your doctrine, yet condemn it in those who do not.

Therefore, you condemnation is against not those who commit sins, but against those who disagree with your doctrine. I do not accuse them of sin. They confess to sin, just as I do.

Hi Mark

Those who confess sins and agree with the doctrine, do so with shame and remorse. They are in agreement with God over sin and His desire for them to be sin free. In contrast, you and others are `preaching up` sin and opposing those who`s `error` is to proclaim that Jesus saves from sin in accordance with scripture as a reality that is not not just a notion.

It is the failure of that faith that makes a man fall. First of all he depends on his own strength and then the fall comes.

Hi Hep,

Would you be so kind as to provide the Scriptural teaching behind this statement? Thank you!

I am reminded of James, who says something different:

James 1:13-15 ESV
(13) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
(14) But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
(15) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

Hi Mark

Sorry I missed this one :

The reason for sinning is not the same in the perfected. I think James is discussing the usual reason for sinning, but when the old nature has been eradicated, then there must be a process for it to be activated (we never reach a point when it is impossible to fall). From my own experiences, it was depending on my own strength again which led to the sin nature reviving but I cannot be dogmatic about it. Things can become rather vague in the upper reaches of the mountain.

 

[mark s]

Hi Mark

Those who confess sins and agree with the doctrine, do so with shame and remorse. They are in agreement with God over sin and His desire for them to be sin free. In contrast, you and others are `preaching up` sin and opposing those who`s `error` is to proclaim that Jesus saves from sin in accordance with scripture as a reality that is not not just a notion.

Hi Hep,

Is it your presumption that I feel no shame or remorse when I sin?

Do you think that I do not agree with God that I am to be free from sin? Do you think that I do not desire to never sin again?

You say I am "preaching up" sin. What does that mean exactly? Do you mean that I promote sinfulness? That I think it's OK? That I want sin? Is that truly what you think?

I feel that I'm trapped in this repeating cycle where as I say "God has forgiven us", the reply is "You love sin!" Does no one realize the fallacy there?

It's like there's this cloud of "all or nothing" thinking, that causes this discussion to depart from reality over and over. Because I am of the view that Christians sin and remain Christians, because God has forgiven our sins, somehow means that I'm no Christian at all, that I'm a depraved blasphemer whose only love is to wallow in the filth of whatever it is you all imagine of me?

Have you not said yourself that you are not currently "walking in the entire state of sanctification"? You have posted that we remain in this "sanctification" "unless we get waylaid due to unbelief". So then, by your words, you have become an unbeliever, and have not continued to the end, so that you are lost, unless you repent again, and come back to faith.

But I don't think that's true. I think you are most likely a child of God, who finds life to be like all of God's children find it. Sometimes we're better, and sometimes not as much. But our hearts are ever reaching towards our heavenly Father, and we will never be completely satisfied until all sin is done away with.

You, or some of you, say that I don't believe God can do that. I most certainly believe that He can, and will. But while I'm of the view that this will not be 100% while in our fallen flesh bodies, this gets flung back in my face that i think it will be 0%! That I think God does nothing in me at all. Seriously???

The reason for sinning is not the same in the perfected. I think James is discussing the usual reason for sinning, but when the old nature has been eradicated, then there must be a process for it to be activated (we never reach a point when it is impossible to fall). From my own experiences, it was depending on my own strength again which led to the sin nature reviving but I cannot be dogmatic about it. Things can become rather vague in the upper reaches of the mountain.

Isn't there a contradiction here? Sinning in the perfected? Let me ask you . . . if the old nature has be eradicated, from where does sin come? And most importantly, where can I read of this in the Bible?

Let me ask you this also . . . if the old nature has been eradicated, then how could you actually "depend on your own strength"? If all you have is the new nature, and the new nature is the life of Christ inside you, then what else could there be that you could depend upon?

And what is the "upper reaches of the mountain"? I don't understand what that means, and I don't understand why it would make things harder to understand. It sounds like you're using this phrase to describe a "greater spirituality" or something like that, I'm guessing here, but doesn't the Bible teach that the more spiritual have greater understanding?

I really hope you are seriously considering what I'm saying in this post, and will give reasoned and careful answers to these questions.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[us2are1]

Hi Haz,

I'm mostly interested in learning who will say that they have, or believe they will reach the state of not ever committing any more sins, while in this life, that is, before the resurrection/transformation.

I'd like to know who believes this doctrine (a clear declaration), and I'm very interested in what they have to say about these verses I've posted. I know there are others as well.

I believe the only response they can make is that they don't actually mean what they say. But not to put words in anyone's mouth . . .

Love in Christ,
Mark

So you are here to troll for the righteous so you can beat them with one misuderstood scripture?

Read these scriptures in their context. " in which you once walked" means you don't do it any longer.

Paul was talking about this rotting flesh, smelley flesh, lusting flesh, discusting flesh. He wasn't talking about continuing in blatant sin after hearing about salvation in Christ. Paul coming from where he came would not have known sin as it is taught in this modern day. He would have plucked his eyes out at seeing one comercial on television today.


Wake up people and ask God for His Spirit to replace yours.




.

 

[mark s]

So you are here to troll for the righteous so you can beat them with one misuderstood scripture?

Read these scriptures in their context. " in which you once walked" means you don't do it any longer.

Paul was talking about this rotting flesh, smelley flesh, lusting flesh, discusting flesh. He wasn't talking about continuing in blatant sin after hearing about salvation in Christ. Paul coming from where he came would not have known sin as it is taught in this modern day. He would have plucked his eyes out at seeing one comercial on television today.

Wake up people and ask God for His Spirit to replace yours.

You see in this passage, Paul is acknowedging that something is changed, that you used to walk in these, and don't any longer, but he likewise acknowledges that there is still something we're dealing with, therefore the exortation to put these things away.

Paul speaks of how we used to live in them. The presupposition to that statement is that we no longer live in them. Paul says to put them away. The presupposition there is that there is some putting away to be done.

However, Paul has just got done saying that you, having been raised with Christ, will appear with Him in glory.

So there are some very solid conclusions we can draw from this passage.

Simply stated:

God has regenerated us, and we will be with Jesus when He is revealed in glory, therefore, the final outcome is assured.
While God has brought us from our old life into a new life, there remains some improving to be done.
And finally, this fact that there remains some improving does not negate the assurance of the final outsome.

And this simple truth is reflected over and over through Scripture.

Now . . .

I have given you a reasoned, orderly, logical assertion based directly and specifically upon the plain reading of Scripture within it's context. Do you care to refute this assertion by a demonstration that this is not what the passage is saying? Can we take it point by point, and have a reasoned and orderly discussion?

Or would you rather continue with such accusations such as that I'm just here to beat people with Scripture? Is it more comfortable for you, more productive, to respond with your exegesis of the passage? Or better to just imply that I'm promoting continuing in blatant sin? Because if you want to just make out that I'm just as happy to sin, or think that sin is OK, and argue against that, well, you'll have some company at least.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[JohnnyB]

mark you said:

Do you think that I do not agree with God that I am to be free of sin?

Of course you don't agree! I am surprised you set youself up like this, mark. If you agreed with God, you wouldn' t be fighting so hard against him.

You also stated that God has forgiven our sins, this is an error, He has forgiven our past sins if we are in Christ. If you sin in the future, He tells us to ask for forgiveness, this is not difficult to pull from scripture.

Complete sanctification is a process, some are further along than others, to deny that a brother could be walking in complete sanctification now, is to deny the workings of the Holy Spirit,, which is a very dangerous sin.

 

[mark s]

mark you said:

Of course you don't agree! I am surprised you set youself up like this, mark. If you agreed with God, you wouldn' t be fighting so hard against him.

Hi JohnnyB,

There seems to be a true failure in communication here. Or is it that the single point of disagreement is projected over all else?

You say I fight against God. Its nice that you know me so much better than I know myself. But have we ever even met?

In your words I "set myself up", is that like a bowling pin, for you to knock down? Is that the nature of our discussion here?

You also stated that God has forgiven our sins, this is an error, He has forgiven our past sins if we are in Christ. If you sin in the future, He tells us to ask for forgiveness, this is not difficult to pull from scripture.

You must be referring to 1 John 1:9. Before going into this passage in detail, please allow me to ask, was there another you have in mind?

Complete sanctification is a process, some are further along than others,

Agreed.

to deny that a brother could be walking in complete sanctification now, is to deny the workings of the Holy Spirit,, which is a very dangerous sin.

To deny someone could be? Let's take it out of the academic, hypothetical realm. Are you? Are you sinless, "walking in complete sanctification"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

BTW . . . anything to say about the actual body of my post??? Or is this to be unaddressed as has been so much that I've posted in this thread.

So many of my questions unanswered. So many Scriptures just skipped right over.

>> sigh <<

 

[JohnnyB]

Hi JohnnyB,

There seems to be a true failure in communication here. Or is it that the single point of disagreement is projected over all else?

You say I fight against God. Its nice that you know me so much better than I know myself. But have we ever even met?

In your words I "set myself up", is that like a bowling pin, for you to knock down? Is that the nature of our discussion here?



You must be referring to 1 John 1:9. Before going into this passage in detail, please allow me to ask, was there another you have in mind?



Agreed.



To deny someone could be? Let's take it out of the academic, hypothetical realm. Are you? Are you sinless, "walking in complete sanctification"?

Love in Christ,
Mark

BTW . . . anything to say about the actual body of my post??? Or is this to be unaddressed as has been so much that I've posted in this thread.

So many of my questions unanswered. So many Scriptures just skipped right over.

>> sigh <<

The questions are only unanswered in you mind.

Do you believe what you write? If so, We all know wwhere you stand. Do I need to know Billy Graham personally to know his beliefs?

 

[Episkopos]

Are you sinless, "walking in complete sanctification"?

This is not usually asked in a brotherly way.....but in a doubting way...

1. Would a brother who was walking without sin even notice that he is?
2. Who would believe even if he said he was?
3. The enemy likes to discourage faith in real brothers....anybody can throw stones.

So we must keep to the discussion from a biblical perspective...since there is no guarantee a poster is an actual brother. PM's are for questions of a more personal nature.

 

[JohnnyB]

I have not yet attained. Yet, I know what it is I am to attain to and I believe the power of Christ in me. I can do aall things through Christ who strengthens me.

Do you believe my last statement or not?

 

[mark s]

Yes I do.

 

[JohnnyB]

Yes I do.

If you truly believe this mark, why deny that with Christ in you, He can overcome all sin in You, He is the overcomer in us.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

Could you please give your definition of 'sanctification'? (Not just quote a verse. Please show what the BIble means by it.)


Many thanks.

 

[mark s]

This is not usually asked in a brotherly way.....but in a doubting way...

Are you saying this of me? Do you impugn my motives? Is this the latest ad hominem? I'm not asking for the right reason, or in the right way?

My interest is in dealing with reality. What is true. Let's get it out on the table, talk about it.

1. Would a brother who was walking without sin even notice that he is?

Do you not think so? Perhaps I've been mistaken here, but it has seemed to me to that some of you have reported certain periods of time when you've been certain you've been without sin. WS reports this for his life now. But if you are not aware of whether you are or not, how could you report that?

But this leads to another issue on this topic. Are we actually always aware of our sins? I don't think we are, and I see that Paul the Apostle thought the same, in saying that he does not judge himself, that Christ will judge when He returns, as Christ truly knows our hearts. He recognized that he was not a fit judge of himself.

Whitestone, in his claims, places himself in a catagory above the Apostle, in saying that he IS a fit judge of himself, and can proclaim his complete sanctification.

2. Who would believe even if he said he was?

I think that's what is being discussed.

3. The enemy likes to discourage faith in real brothers....anybody can throw stones.

I'm asking questions. It seems to me that I'm the one being pelted with stones!

How many negative personal comments have I made to others, saying that they are liars, with bad motives, in love with sin, pigs wallowing in filth, fighting against God, blaspheming God and man, and so on, need I continue?

Who here is throwing the stones? Please, just read the thread!

So we must keep to the discussion from a biblical perspective...since there is no guarantee a poster is an actual brother. PM's are for questions of a more personal nature.

You need not answer. But let's not sweep the discussion under the rug.

Love in Christ,
Mark

If you truly believe this mark, why deny that with Christ in you, He can overcome all sin in You, He is the overcomer in us.

That's just it. I do not deny this. I am completely convince that He can, and will overcome sin in all who are His. This is my great hope - that's hope in the Scriptural sense - a certain expectation of what is to come.

Love in Christ,
Mark

Hi Mark,

Could you please give your definition of 'sanctification'? (Not just quote a verse. Please show what the BIble means by it.)


Many thanks.

Do you think I would have any different definition than you? Essentially, it is being set apart for God. I'll need to come back to this when I have more time to present what I see in the Bible.

And this will be valuable to this discussion, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Mark,

Do you think I would have any different definition than you?

I don't know. I'm trying to read between the lines in this thread, because so many thread titles on CyB are provokative. Most people know that Wesley moved away from claiming 'Sinless Perfection', but here we are talking about it three hundred years later! I am always uncomfortable with theological constructs, because details scripture brings to a topic always get left out, and then we can be absolutely sure we are not 'hearing' all of God's word on the matter.

Essentially, it is being set apart for God. I'll need to come back to this when I have more time to present what I see in the Bible.

And this will be valuable to this discussion, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Thanks.


I firmly believe that it's necessary to define the perspective (angle of view - from God, from man, between men? (We know what Paul said about that.)) and keep them as separated as possible. That said... there would be no discussion if it were not for the word of God to man. We are in a relationship with Him whether we like it or not, whether it is as right with Him as it could be, or not.

 

[whitestone]

Whitestone, in his claims, places himself in a catagory above the Apostle, in saying that he IS a fit judge of himself, and can proclaim his complete sanctification.

I answered your questions and got reemed for it. I didn't make "claims" Mark.

I do judge myself yes, and I am a fit judge of myself filled with Christ, yes. You are not my judge.

I judged myself, by His Word, to be guilty of sin and worthy of death. (I am repeating myself for the umpteenth time here for Mark's benefit). So I died to myself and asked for Jesus to Come and He has and He forgave me of my sins and now, because I hate sin so much, He, AS PROMISED, purifiies me from sin. Now I am a servant to Righteousness. Jesus walks sinlessly in me and as He is in this world so am I. Something I wish you were Mark.

What part of this is so hard for you to grasp? Why do you fight so hard against Christ and the Word of God??

Yes, you need to learn to judge yourself instead of others;

(1Co 11:31) For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

That's why your lies and your judgement against me means nothing. Besides, witnesses here know what and who you are.

Saying that I "place myself in a catagory above the Apostle" what a horrible person you are to make that false accusation. It only shows further who your father is in your lies.

Dear brethren,
I'm not a fond attender of these forums and can become quite indignant toward an enemy of the gospel creeping in with self bloating teachings intending to draw attention to themselves and belittle the Saints in their walk in Christ. So please know that although important to rebuke the enemy, it isn't my interest to do so. I only say what is appropriate to those who confound themselves and falsely accuse the sons of God while wresting scriptures to their own destruction. I would much rather share the wonderful things with the brethren than flounder around with backbiters and non-believers like is the custom of some.
The Word of God is the highest regarded item that exists on this earth. Our Bible. My regard, my entire life surrounds knowing Christ and the Word He speaks. He has witheld nothing back from me or any of us. He doesn't hide knowledge or wisdom or understanding nor does He withold Righteousness. He opens our eyes and gives us His very self, and as Promised, He LIVES within our very Selves if we invite Him in!
Those who say that sin is unavoidable in a Christian UNTIL after this body dies, HAVE NOT YET DIED TO THEIR BODY OF FLESH! They are NOT Christians, those who do not die to selves. Especially if they tell other Christians that neither can THEY hope for a life of being filled with the Sinless walk of Christ in them. The very act of dying to self is the beginning of the walk of Christ Himself, not to mention each of His brethren.
It is how we are "changed", or "transformed". It is exactly how we move from "glory to glory" in our development in being "transformed" into His Image. It takes years in some cases, like it did me. Many others never embrace holiness or sanctification for different reasons. Consider the parable of the sower for example. The flesh in it's self delusion and interests in worldly things and no root in one's self, betrays a lost soul through SIN. It is evident and manifest.
Anyone reading this who knows that sin still exists in their life from time to time, should feel a very strong painful pain in their heart because of it. If they are suitable to the Kingdom, they will fall on their faces and pray in many tears for their horrible sin-ridden old man would die and stay dead and quit attempting to raise his ugly head back up out of the watery grave where I buried me in my death with Christ. Crucifixion of the flesh. I hate the flesh in it's wickedness.
Now I'm Forgiven! Not only that, but the Holy Spirit of Christ in me has nothing but loathing toward lying cheating stealing adultery coveting and every other sin I've committed againt God and man.
It is of the Lord that I hate sin. It is supernatural to say the least. It is "hating self" and "dying to self".
Now... I am raised up in Newness of Life in the Spirit of Him raised from the dead. It is NOW. Now I am a servant to Righteousness. I detest even the garment of flesh spotted by sin.
Now... I feel toward righteousness as I used to feel toward sin. I 'gravitate' to Righteous Christ always. I gaze directly into His eyes, as a Bride sees Her Bridegroom lift the veil from off my eyes. He Loves me and Kisses me. He always keeps me in His Bridechamber in intimacy as He fills me with His Incorruptible Seed, Christ in me. That New Creation that is Coming forth in me is Christ Himself. It is "who" I AM within this temple body, forever!
Now... How, could I possibly put forth my hand to sin since it is Jesus' hand with nail holes in it?
How could a man do that?
Yet Mark can.
And doubly sinful, without shame or evidence, he accuses me of that which I hate.

Is this picture black and white clear enough?

Sinless Perfection is what Jesus lives in within His Saints. He does NOT live within a sinners heart. We already have read the scriptures where this is perfectly clear. But for the non-believers, I'll post them again here;


(1Jn 3:8) He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

(1Jn 3:9) Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Mark, whoever continues in sin, as you say you do, read 1 Jn 3:8 again and again until something clicks a light switch on for you. What do you say sir? Also, read the next verse when you think you would like to enjoy the sinless life of being born of God.

That is why I write to you Mark. In the Love of Christ, for your salvation in Him. My last plea for your soul, hoping for a spirit within you who actually does hunger and thirst for righteousness... that would be nice to see for sure.

Peace and Love in Christ,
Whitestone.

 

[mark s]

Whitestone,

Just remember, if we do sin, we have an Advocate, even Jesus Christ the Righteous.

You wrote:

Anyone reading this who knows that sin still exists in their life from time to time,

This is the unbeliever, the lost in sin, spiritually dead, is that not what you have stated? Those who have not been filled with Christ. This is what you teach, is it not?

(Hint: its in your previous posts)

Love in Christ,
Mark

 

[Episkopos]

Are you saying this of me? Do you impugn my motives? Is this the latest ad hominem? I'm not asking for the right reason, or in the right way?

My interest is in dealing with reality. What is true. Let's get it out on the table, talk about it.



Do you not think so? Perhaps I've been mistaken here, but it has seemed to me to that some of you have reported certain periods of time when you've been certain you've been without sin. WS reports this for his life now. But if you are not aware of whether you are or not, how could you report that?

But this leads to another issue on this topic. Are we actually always aware of our sins? I don't think we are, and I see that Paul the Apostle thought the same, in saying that he does not judge himself, that Christ will judge when He returns, as Christ truly knows our hearts. He recognized that he was not a fit judge of himself.

Whitestone, in his claims, places himself in a catagory above the Apostle, in saying that he IS a fit judge of himself, and can proclaim his complete sanctification.



I think that's what is being discussed.



I'm asking questions. It seems to me that I'm the one being pelted with stones!

How many negative personal comments have I made to others, saying that they are liars, with bad motives, in love with sin, pigs wallowing in filth, fighting against God, blaspheming God and man, and so on, need I continue?

Who here is throwing the stones? Please, just read the thread!



You need not answer. But let's not sweep the discussion under the rug.

Love in Christ,
Mark



That's just it. I do not deny this. I am completely convince that He can, and will overcome sin in all who are His. This is my great hope - that's hope in the Scriptural sense - a certain expectation of what is to come.

Love in Christ,
Mark



Do you think I would have any different definition than you? Essentially, it is being set apart for God. I'll need to come back to this when I have more time to present what I see in the Bible.

And this will be valuable to this discussion, so I'm glad you brought it up.

Love in Christ,
Mark

We all expect to walk in the fulness of Christ after we die. We all agree on this. It is just that some of us believe we can experience this life NOW through experiencing this death in Christ NOW. How else could Paul say that we (the believers) were dead to sin? How else could we carry the death around with us so that the life might be made manifest.

If the victory over sin was a hope rather than a present experience the bible would be worded very differently.

It would say something like...he who says he overcomes through Christ in this life is a liar and the truth is not in him.

But the message is precisely that we overcome through Christ by faith.