haz and Kidron both quote a verse to support their 'now no law' claim, which applies solely to the era before Moses. Because, if there is no law, then no-one can condemn you for breaking it - especially not God. It's a very simple manoeuvre with words, - a bit like plastic money - which has no foundation in the overall scheme of God's plan to bring mankind back into fellowship with Himself to dwell - free from sin again - in His presence.
Sinless Perfection?
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haz and Kidron both quote a verse to support their 'now no law' claim, which applies solely to the era before Moses. Because, if there is no law, then no-one can condemn you for breaking it - especially not God. It's a very simple manoeuvre with words, - a bit like plastic money - which has no foundation in the overall scheme of God's plan to bring mankind back into fellowship with Himself to dwell - free from sin again - in His presence.
Hi Epi
It was about 12 years ago that I was baptised in the Spirit and walked without sin for 18 months. I don`t remember exactly what went wrong but I wonder whether I started to rely on my strength and not the Spirit. I lost the joy and peace and spent the next 10 years longing to be restored. Then I was in an instant. Somehow it went again even though I was determined not to lose it. Since coming onto this forum I feel some stirring inside and the longing to be back. We must pray for each other. I have had no-one to pray for me I have only known opposition. Good to meet you brother.
It was about 12 years ago that I was baptised in the Spirit and walked without sin for 18 months. I don`t remember exactly what went wrong but I wonder whether I started to rely on my strength and not the Spirit. I lost the joy and peace and spent the next 10 years longing to be restored. Then I was in an instant. Somehow it went again even though I was determined not to lose it. Since coming onto this forum I feel some stirring inside and the longing to be back. We must pray for each other. I have had no-one to pray for me I have only known opposition. Good to meet you brother.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
In post #20, I stated that I sincerely believe that the two statements below,
though they contradict each other, are both true.
†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a
liar, and His word is not in us.
†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
In order for both those statements to be true, they have to be talking about
two entirely different identities: one that's born again, and one that's not
born again; but at the same time: both identities would have to pertain to
just one person: and they do.
In other words: I currently exist as a man born of Adam, and as a man born
of God both at the same time. Me as the man born of Adam is 110% sinful;
while me as the man born of God is 110% sinless.
The me born of God never needs to confess sins simply because that me
never commits sins, nor is even capable off committing sins. But the me
born of Adam is another story. That me will never stop sinning nor can stop
sinning: ever-- hence the desperate necessity of regeneration spoken of by
the Lord at John 3:3-8.
Rom 6:6-11 says I'm supposed to reckon the me born of Adam deceased.
Well; that me might be deceased on the books, but in real life he's still very
energetic.
Cliff
/
In post #20, I stated that I sincerely believe that the two statements below,
though they contradict each other, are both true.
†. 1John 1:8-10 . . If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and
the truth is not in us. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a
liar, and His word is not in us.
†. 1John 3:9 . .Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed
remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.
In order for both those statements to be true, they have to be talking about
two entirely different identities: one that's born again, and one that's not
born again; but at the same time: both identities would have to pertain to
just one person: and they do.
In other words: I currently exist as a man born of Adam, and as a man born
of God both at the same time. Me as the man born of Adam is 110% sinful;
while me as the man born of God is 110% sinless.
The me born of God never needs to confess sins simply because that me
never commits sins, nor is even capable off committing sins. But the me
born of Adam is another story. That me will never stop sinning nor can stop
sinning: ever-- hence the desperate necessity of regeneration spoken of by
the Lord at John 3:3-8.
Rom 6:6-11 says I'm supposed to reckon the me born of Adam deceased.
Well; that me might be deceased on the books, but in real life he's still very
energetic.
Cliff
/
So you operate in 2 different natures and are a friend and alien to God. You know God in total ignorance to God. You operate in unbelief through faith. So you can have a really good time...enjoying the world AND the kingdom!!!! :wacko:
Haz claims to be sinless too but that is because he has manouvered himself behind the blood of Jesus so that when God looks at him he only sees the blood. It is justified as in JUST AS IF I'D never sinned!
Kidron claims to not sin either because he says the law that would condemn him has been abolished.
Reading this again it is remarkable how close we are in testimony...I also walked in a light...a shimmering light that came out of the sides of my eyes. I also sensed a presence shining from the right. I assume it was an angel.
I too am waiting for "enough water to flush the toilet" so to speak.
It interesting to see the 'perfect behavior' group.
Whitstone claims he's perfect in behavior (sinless, as he puts it), in spite of his behavior here showing otherwise.
Epi and Prentis claim one day they will be continuously in perfect behavior, and they happen to be failing at the moment.
Dragonfly seems to differ from the above persons, suggesting that perfect is not necessary just as long as we don't live a 'lifestyle' of 'habitual' bad behavior.
But they are all in agreement that death is the penalty if your lifestyle isn't perfect (or near enough to perfect for dragonfly).
Their gospel is not supported in scripture.
And 1John 3:6 condemns them.
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him.
As whitestone, Epi, Axehead, Prentis, dragonfly etc all 'sin' under their doctine of perfect lifestyle/behavior, then they all have neither see Him nor known Him.
Hi Hep,
Would you be so kind as to provide the Scriptural teaching behind this statement? Thank you!
I am reminded of James, who says something different:
James 1:13-15 ESV
(13) Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
(14) But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
(15) Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
Love in Christ,
Mark
Hi Prentis,
Dangerous? What does that mean? Of course, I'm not asking the definition of the word. What I'm saying is, either this is the teaching of Scripture, or it is not, right?
But you have said, "new birth is in no way a guarantee of victory". How then do you account for passages such as these?
Colossians 3:1-4 ESV
(1) If then you have been raised with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
(2) Set your minds on things that are above, not on things that are on earth.
(3) For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
(4) When Christ who is your life appears, then you also will appear with him in glory.
1 John 3:2 ESV
(2) Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is.
Both of these passages teach quite plainly that those who have been born again will be conformed to His image, to be with Him in glory. If you have been born again, this is your future. If this does not happen for you, or anyone who has been born again, then these Scriptures are not true, and we know that cannot be.
Here's a good example of what the scriptures say.
Personally, I think this passage fits better to those who experienced Jesus ministry upon the earth before His death. This letter to the Hebrews was written to Israelites who were having a difficulty setting aside the Old Covenant for the New Covenant. Many followed Jesus while He was there. They listened to His teaching, experience Him, the powers of the Holy Spirit working through Him as He gave them a taste of the promised kingdom.
You talk of "having an experience with God", I don't know what that means.
Are you talking about:
John 1:11-13 ESV
(11) He came to his own, and his own people did not receive him.
(12) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,
(13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.
?
Love in Christ,
Mark
Death means separation. If we sin we breach fellowship with God. We can repent and turn back to God. We can sin sins that are not according to death. John states this. But all sins are one step closer to death if not outright death. Sins cause us to drop back. This means we are following Christ but from a greater and greater distance until He is no longer in "sight" (presence). Pride does this...worrying does this..fearfulness...desiring (which is idolatry)..etc.. Every small sin is like one more step away. So we drift from the Lord slowly if we are not careful. The proximity to Christ is through the cross. Dying with Christ equals life with Christ. So as we are pulled away through daily affairs we start to lag behind. It is like weeds that choke out the fruit. So walking with Christ NOW is about life and death NOW. When we get too far away we can cry out to God like a new born baby who is out of sight of his mother. As we get older we tend to not cry out as quickly so that we get used to following from a distance. But we can take many wrong turns and get very lost. So perseverance is required to stay as close to Christ as possible....forsaking all things to do so.
Final judgment is about an entire life lived although God knows how to let us finish the race at the right time depending on whether we have pleased Him or not.
So if we are on this forum it means we are still in the race.
When we are very close to Christ there is a keeping power that causes us to cleave to the Lord. Like a fridge magnet keeps a paper stuck to it. But as the cares of this world increase in us then the paper becomes papers so that the weight and thickness gets greater until the power of the magnet is overcome. Then we fall to the ground.
Hi Epi,
The sin unto death that the epistle of John speaks about is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. This sin will not be forgiven.
As for the other sin (unbelief in Jesus) we see scripture often call for people to repent and turn back to God.
Seeking to be made perfect by the flesh is unbelief. Any doctrines preaching that perfect behavior is required for salvation is unbelief as they do not accept that Christ's one offering has sanctified (Heb 10:10) and perfected (Heb 10:14) believers, making them holy (Rom 11:16) and righteous.
Prentis
New Member
There are also many warnings that if we draw back, God has no pleasure in us... And 'he who endures to the end shall be saved'. Again, the matter is to take the whole counsel of scripture. The verses above do indeed describe the end of those who are God's, if they persevere. Some verses tell us of the end of things, others warn us as to what is necessary to arrive at this end, to attain the promises, and some verses do both. We must be careful not to pick and choose only the positive and forget the conditions.
This is an easy way of setting aside a hard warning and saying 'it's not for me'. As humans, the temptation to do this is great, but we must NOT give in. Is the warning to the Laodiceans also not for us? Are we beyond this?
This is exactly the danger I am trying to tell you about. We are not beyond falling... Much to the opposite, we are in great danger of it. The enemy prowls, and the world would take us with it's current. The race must be run to it's end!
Otherwise we are claiming our own justification, a self-justification, before God's final word.
Yes, that would be an example of an experience with God. It could be anything, a touch from God, new birth, God cleansing us... Is this the end of our walk? No, it is the beginning, it is entering the gate. We must then walk the way.
2Pe 1:8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Yes: Adam man and Christ man; but the Adam man is more like an enemy
than an alien.
†. Rom 8:7-8 . .The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject
to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh
cannot please God.
I don't know about the "enjoying" part because I've had a sharp pain in my
lower bowel for the past three days that could turn out to be colon cancer;
but other than that: Yes.
Subject change:
†. Rom 8:13 . . If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die;
†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading
to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin
not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he
should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin
not leading to death.
Believers all have eternal life; which is a divine kind of life that's impervious
to death. So then, it is impossible for believers to die spiritually.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in
God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their
sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they
follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.
But though believers cannot die spiritually, they can easily die physically;
which Ananias and his wife discovered right quick at Acts 5:1-11.
Note : there is no one sin unto death for believers. For some it might be
alcoholism, for others it might be treating their aging parents like dirt
with mockery, criticism, ridicule, and demeaning comments, for others it might
be embezzling, for others it might be chronic adultery, for others it might be
spousal abuse, for others it might be purple language, for others it might be
disdain for senior citizens, for others it might be an unbearable superiority
complex, for others it might be for undermining church officers, etc.
Cliff
/
Yes: Adam man and Christ man; but the Adam man is more like an enemy
than an alien.
†. Rom 8:7-8 . .The carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject
to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh
cannot please God.
I don't know about the "enjoying" part because I've had a sharp pain in my
lower bowel for the past three days that could turn out to be colon cancer;
but other than that: Yes.
Subject change:
†. Rom 8:13 . . If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die;
†. 1John 5:16-17 . . If anyone sees his brother committing a sin not leading
to death, he shall ask and God will for him give life to those who commit sin
not leading to death. There is a sin leading to death; I do not say that he
should make request for this. All unrighteousness is sin, and there is a sin
not leading to death.
Believers all have eternal life; which is a divine kind of life that's impervious
to death. So then, it is impossible for believers to die spiritually.
†. John 5:24 . . I assure you, those who listen to my message and believe in
God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their
sins, but they have already passed from death into life.
†. John 10:27-28 . . My sheep recognize my voice; I know them, and they
follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish.
But though believers cannot die spiritually, they can easily die physically;
which Ananias and his wife discovered right quick at Acts 5:1-11.
Note : there is no one sin unto death for believers. For some it might be
alcoholism, for others it might be treating their aging parents like dirt
with mockery, criticism, ridicule, and demeaning comments, for others it might
be embezzling, for others it might be chronic adultery, for others it might be
spousal abuse, for others it might be purple language, for others it might be
disdain for senior citizens, for others it might be an unbearable superiority
complex, for others it might be for undermining church officers, etc.
Cliff
/
Cliff I cannot subscribe whatsoever to a scheme that makes a Christian a friendly enemy of God.
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
Christ has no friendly enemies that I'm aware of. You're either with him or
against him: no middle ground.
†. Luke 11:23 . . He who is not with me is against me; and he who does
not gather with me; scatters.
Cliff
/
Christ has no friendly enemies that I'm aware of. You're either with him or
against him: no middle ground.
†. Luke 11:23 . . He who is not with me is against me; and he who does
not gather with me; scatters.
Cliff
/
Webers_Home
Well-Known Member
.
It's far more likely that Luke 11:23 contradicts your understanding of my
previous posts rather than the posts themselves; and no surprise there
as the two natures of a born-again Christian is one of the supernatural
aspects of Christianity not all that easily digested by your average rank
and file pew warmer.
Cliff
/
It's far more likely that Luke 11:23 contradicts your understanding of my
previous posts rather than the posts themselves; and no surprise there
as the two natures of a born-again Christian is one of the supernatural
aspects of Christianity not all that easily digested by your average rank
and file pew warmer.
Cliff
/
Hi haz,
Do you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 5? I think not, so, I'm going to share from Young's Literal Translation.
Romans 5:12 '... even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death;
13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,
Looking at verse 13 first, Paul is repeating what he mentioned in Romans 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression. So, I agree with you that Paul did say that where there is no law, no sin is being recorded against us.
Happy now?
Here's the bad news.
If you read Rom 5:12 and Rom 5:14 properly, you will note that the whole of mankind was dead in sin - dead to God - during that era. Paul is not talking about Christians at all!!
Still happy?
Hopefully, you are beginning to see a problem with using Rom 4:15 and Rom 5:13 to back up the claim you and others (notably Kidron) have been making - that because the Mosaic Law has been abolished (I'm just restating your case. Don't mistake that for agreement with your reasoning.) - no Christian can be convicted of sinning anymore. I hope you will never again be quite as misinformed as you have been to date.
To recap the key point in Rom 5:12: it states that through one man - Adam - the sin entered the world. At the moment he died through having eaten the forbidden fruit, all Adam's unborn children died 'in his loins'. Young gives this death the definite article, because it's a noun.
Thus, when we are born, we are (as good as) dead with respect to the [eternal] life.
Adam lost for us all, the freedom to eat of the tree of the life (and live for ever).
You will note as you read Paul, that he often mentions the resurrection of Christ, or, the resurrection which we hope to attain to, just after he's mentioned the cross. The two are inextricably linked, and Paul is looking ahead to the resurrection of believers, and, that if we are truly identified with Christ in this life, that we will face tribulation and suffering for His Name's sake. This is the gospel.
Acts 26:6, 7, 8; Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, Rom 8:17, 18, Phil 1:29, 1 Peter 1:11, 1 Peter 4:13, I Peter 5:1.
Now, let's look at Romans 6:
1 What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?
2 let it not be! we who died to the sin--how shall we still live in it?
3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead
5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;
6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless,
7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
8 And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him has no more lordship;
10 for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he lives, he liveth to God;
11 so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;
13 neither present ye your members instruments of unrighteousness to the sin,
Paul has just explained how to get free from 'the sin' so as to become free from 'the [eternal] death'. Can you see that?
Moving on -
14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Here we have law and grace in the same sentence. What do they have to do with getting free from the sin and the death?
As you know, the Mosaic Law brought sins to the conscious attention of Israel. Nevertheless, it was possible to acknowledge one's sins - the outworking of 'the sin' in one's life - by making certain sacrifices and keep many commandments.
These rituals were supposed to make a person understand their incapability to overcome 'the sin' which they found in themselves. The Mosaic Law existed to show them their deadness in 'the sin', and that it was impossible to escape from 'the sin'.
Even those who committed sins which incurred the death penalty under the Mosaic Law, only hastened the natural outcome of their life (being dead in 'the sin') - namely, 'the death'.
So.... what is the grace?
According to Paul, it is a quality of the life in Jesus Christ, which, when He interacts with us personally, enables us to be changed or to change.
Let's think about changing for a minute. Why should we change at all?
The simple answer is, because Adam changed the parameters of our relationship with God, and we need a way to remove those changes, so we are not facing God's wrath for 'the sin' in our lives any more; ideally, we'd also receive freedom to eat of the tree of life again.
What I mean is, we need to find ourselves changed so radically, that we no longer have not alternative but to commit sins. Thus we would find ourselves in favour with God again, just as Adam had been before he sinned. Is that possible?
Well, if it would be possible to escape God's wrath against sinners, it would indeed seem like an irresistable offer. But how?
How do I get that grace to be effective in my life?
What I'm trying to show you is, if you understand the problem thoroughly, then you will understand the thorough solution to the problem. Let me rephrase Young's translation of 14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
For the sin shall not have lordship over you once you are - not under law, but - under grace. 2 Timothy 2:5
What Paul tried to show in the first part of Rom 6, is that Christ took 'the sin' of the whole of mankind to the cross, and through His own death, He slew it for ever. It is finished. HE remained under the Mosaic Law on our behalf, taking the penalty for our sins.
In this respect, the law of the death for the sin became abolished only for those who choose to receive His death against their own sinful nature. Rom 6:3, 4, 6, 7.
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus,
Where the grace of God comes in is, that as He raised Jesus Christ from the dead by His awesome power, He is equally able to raise us from 'the death' which through Christ's death is made null and void to us, that His life may be made manifest - seeable, knowable.
Ephesians 1:19 'and what the exceeding greatness of His power to us who are believing,
according to the working of the power of His might 20 which He wrought in the Christ, having raised him out of the dead,
Paul refers to this grace in Eph 3:7 again, explaining that it is the power which enables him to fulfil God's calling on his life.
Paul returns to the rhetorical question he asked at the start of the chapter -
15 What then? shall we sin because we are 'not under law but under grace'? let it not be!
In the next part, he makes the case for actively living in the ways which please God to demonstrate that the principle of 'the sin', which had held us bound to 'the death', has not just been destroyed Heb 2:14,15, but has dynamically replaced by the power of Christ's eternal life.
16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin
17 and thanks to God, that ye were servants of the sin, and--were obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up;
18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.
19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants
20 for when ye were servants of the sin, ye were free from the righteousness,
21 what fruit, therefore, were ye having then, in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those [is] death.
22 And now, having been freed from the sin,
23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul fully expects to see a dynamically changed lifestyle once a person is 'under grace'. It is most certainly not a notional righteousness.
The believer who has genuinely been grafted into the death of Christ, is free from the law of sin and death.
But, unless they live as if they are free from the law of sin and death, by not sinning - as a practical expression of having been filled to overflowing with the resurrection life of Christ, not only God, but anyone who knows them, is fully entitled to form their own conclusions, that ... they are still in bondage to sin.
Do you understand what Paul is saying in Romans 5? I think not, so, I'm going to share from Young's Literal Translation.
Romans 5:12 '... even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death;
and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin;
13 for till law sin was in the world: and sin is not reckoned when there is not law;
14 but the death did reign from Adam till Moses, even upon those not having sinned in the likeness of Adam's transgression,
who is a type of him who is coming.
Looking at verse 13 first, Paul is repeating what he mentioned in Romans 4:15 for the law doth work wrath; for where law is not, neither [is] transgression. So, I agree with you that Paul did say that where there is no law, no sin is being recorded against us.
Happy now?
Here's the bad news.
If you read Rom 5:12 and Rom 5:14 properly, you will note that the whole of mankind was dead in sin - dead to God - during that era. Paul is not talking about Christians at all!!
Still happy?
Hopefully, you are beginning to see a problem with using Rom 4:15 and Rom 5:13 to back up the claim you and others (notably Kidron) have been making - that because the Mosaic Law has been abolished (I'm just restating your case. Don't mistake that for agreement with your reasoning.) - no Christian can be convicted of sinning anymore. I hope you will never again be quite as misinformed as you have been to date.
To recap the key point in Rom 5:12: it states that through one man - Adam - the sin entered the world. At the moment he died through having eaten the forbidden fruit, all Adam's unborn children died 'in his loins'. Young gives this death the definite article, because it's a noun.
Thus, when we are born, we are (as good as) dead with respect to the [eternal] life.
Adam lost for us all, the freedom to eat of the tree of the life (and live for ever).
You will note as you read Paul, that he often mentions the resurrection of Christ, or, the resurrection which we hope to attain to, just after he's mentioned the cross. The two are inextricably linked, and Paul is looking ahead to the resurrection of believers, and, that if we are truly identified with Christ in this life, that we will face tribulation and suffering for His Name's sake. This is the gospel.
Acts 26:6, 7, 8; Matt 16:25, Mark 8:35, Luke 9:24, Luke 17:33, Rom 8:17, 18, Phil 1:29, 1 Peter 1:11, 1 Peter 4:13, I Peter 5:1.
Now, let's look at Romans 6:
1 What, then, shall we say? shall we continue in the sin that the grace may abound?
2 let it not be! we who died to the sin--how shall we still live in it?
3 are ye ignorant that we, as many as were baptized to Christ Jesus, to his death were baptized?
4 we were buried together, then, with him through the baptism to the death, that even as Christ was raised up out of the dead
through the glory of the Father, so also we in newness of life might walk.
5 For, if we have become planted together to the likeness of his death, [so] also we shall be of the rising again;
6 this knowing, that our old man was crucified with [him], that the body of the sin may be made useless,
for our no longer serving the sin;
7 for he who hath died hath been set free from the sin.
8 And if we died with Christ, we believe that we also shall live with him,
9 knowing that Christ, having been raised up out of the dead, doth no more die, death over him has no more lordship;
10 for in that he died, to the sin he died once, and in that he lives, he liveth to God;
11 so also ye, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to the sin, and living to God in Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not then the sin reign in your mortal body, to obey it in its desires;
13 neither present ye your members instruments of unrighteousness to the sin,
but present yourselves to God as living out of the dead, and your members instruments of righteousness to God;
Paul has just explained how to get free from 'the sin' so as to become free from 'the [eternal] death'. Can you see that?
Moving on -
14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
Here we have law and grace in the same sentence. What do they have to do with getting free from the sin and the death?
As you know, the Mosaic Law brought sins to the conscious attention of Israel. Nevertheless, it was possible to acknowledge one's sins - the outworking of 'the sin' in one's life - by making certain sacrifices and keep many commandments.
These rituals were supposed to make a person understand their incapability to overcome 'the sin' which they found in themselves. The Mosaic Law existed to show them their deadness in 'the sin', and that it was impossible to escape from 'the sin'.
Even those who committed sins which incurred the death penalty under the Mosaic Law, only hastened the natural outcome of their life (being dead in 'the sin') - namely, 'the death'.
So.... what is the grace?
According to Paul, it is a quality of the life in Jesus Christ, which, when He interacts with us personally, enables us to be changed or to change.
Let's think about changing for a minute. Why should we change at all?
The simple answer is, because Adam changed the parameters of our relationship with God, and we need a way to remove those changes, so we are not facing God's wrath for 'the sin' in our lives any more; ideally, we'd also receive freedom to eat of the tree of life again.
What I mean is, we need to find ourselves changed so radically, that we no longer have not alternative but to commit sins. Thus we would find ourselves in favour with God again, just as Adam had been before he sinned. Is that possible?
Well, if it would be possible to escape God's wrath against sinners, it would indeed seem like an irresistable offer. But how?
How do I get that grace to be effective in my life?
What I'm trying to show you is, if you understand the problem thoroughly, then you will understand the thorough solution to the problem. Let me rephrase Young's translation of 14 for sin over you shall not have lordship, for ye are not under law, but under grace.
For the sin shall not have lordship over you once you are - not under law, but - under grace. 2 Timothy 2:5
What Paul tried to show in the first part of Rom 6, is that Christ took 'the sin' of the whole of mankind to the cross, and through His own death, He slew it for ever. It is finished. HE remained under the Mosaic Law on our behalf, taking the penalty for our sins.
In this respect, the law of the death for the sin became abolished only for those who choose to receive His death against their own sinful nature. Rom 6:3, 4, 6, 7.
2 Cor 4:10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus,
that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body.
Where the grace of God comes in is, that as He raised Jesus Christ from the dead by His awesome power, He is equally able to raise us from 'the death' which through Christ's death is made null and void to us, that His life may be made manifest - seeable, knowable.
Ephesians 1:19 'and what the exceeding greatness of His power to us who are believing,
according to the working of the power of His might 20 which He wrought in the Christ, having raised him out of the dead,
Paul refers to this grace in Eph 3:7 again, explaining that it is the power which enables him to fulfil God's calling on his life.
Paul returns to the rhetorical question he asked at the start of the chapter -
15 What then? shall we sin because we are 'not under law but under grace'? let it not be!
In the next part, he makes the case for actively living in the ways which please God to demonstrate that the principle of 'the sin', which had held us bound to 'the death', has not just been destroyed Heb 2:14,15, but has dynamically replaced by the power of Christ's eternal life.
16 have ye not known that to whom ye present yourselves servants for obedience, servants ye are to him to whom ye obey, whether of sin
to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
17 and thanks to God, that ye were servants of the sin, and--were obedient from the heart to the form of teaching to which ye were delivered up;
18 and having been freed from the sin, ye became servants to the righteousness.
19 In the manner of men I speak, because of the weakness of your flesh, for even as ye did present your members servants
to the uncleanness and to the lawlessness--to the lawlessness,
so now present your members servants to the righteousness-- to sanctification,
20 for when ye were servants of the sin, ye were free from the righteousness,
21 what fruit, therefore, were ye having then, in the things of which ye are now ashamed? for the end of those [is] death.
22 And now, having been freed from the sin,
and having become servants to God,
ye have your fruit--to sanctification,
and the end life age-during;
23 for the wages of the sin [is] death, and the gift of God [is] life age-during in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Paul fully expects to see a dynamically changed lifestyle once a person is 'under grace'. It is most certainly not a notional righteousness.
The believer who has genuinely been grafted into the death of Christ, is free from the law of sin and death.
But, unless they live as if they are free from the law of sin and death, by not sinning - as a practical expression of having been filled to overflowing with the resurrection life of Christ, not only God, but anyone who knows them, is fully entitled to form their own conclusions, that ... they are still in bondage to sin.
Yes you've missed something for sure.
So you continue to accuse others of sin eh mark? What a hard heart and deaf ears you have. And the false accusations continue against my brethren. You are incorrigible so far in everything...
Copy and paste where they continue to sin as you do because yes, I missed that. I will deal with them on it after that. But as you are a liar in everything else, I don't believe that either.
Mark, I don't teach men's doctrines. I only speak that which is of Christ. You condemn me for that. I understand. But it is your problem and not mine and it is obvious to the brethren here. You are being given a lot of opportunity to being pulled out of the fire you love to sit and roast in. Yet you bite the hand that attempts to rescure you from your continued sins and you continue in false accusations.
No, I have no problem understanding 1 Jo 3:2 or Col 3 that speak of appearing in Glory with Christ. The final enemy destroyed is death.
Prior to that of course, sin and wickedness is destroyed through Christ's righteous Holy Spirit in us NOW, or that last step will never happen. You better know this is true or you are more lost than what you've shown yourself to be in your rebellion and false teachings as an unrepentant sinner.
If you still sin Mark, as you say you do, then I repeat, you have no authority to open your mouth and speak let alone teach your sin bound doctrine of the devil. You simply need to cease worrying about someone else's sin and start worrying about your own.
And I haven't seen that yet...
This isn't the issue here Mark. Please try to keep up.
Where does it become confusing here?? Mark? Why can't you stay with the topic?
Christ's righteousness in us performing righteousness. That is our topic.
We "doing" righteousness in us by our own works. That is not our topic.
Hello??
The only people here attempting to sabotage the conversation are those who falsely accuse Epi and Prentiss and Dragonfly and Axehead and myself, of "doing righteousness by our own works".
None of us can do righteousness by our own works and we all agree so please Mark, try to focus on the actual topic? What do you say?
The topic is, "Sinless Perfection" as the OP states, and we who are speaking intelligently of this know that it is only Christ's Righteousness in us that can produce "sinless perfection", we have no righteousness of our own. Please try to understand this.
I have only been posting on this site for a couple weeks or so, though I joined awhile back. Immediately I recognized brethren in Christ by the pure Word of God they preach. They preach exactly as I and as Paul, as Christ Himself preach, it is by the Holy Spirit! I know Jesus, so I recognized them immediately.
I also, in contrast, recognize those who rail against their message, who hate their message. They are immediately recognized by their harsh words and false accusations and terrible destructive manner of mishandling scriptures, and especially in their pride, making these discussions as though they were a 'contest' and through much words and snide remarks, they think they are elevated above these men.
So immediately as I saw this I rebuked them, but they did not hearken. I've rebuked the enemy to the gospel several times in the last couple weeks and have yet to see the wisdom of a contrite heart back down before the Word of God. Pretty dry desert ground around here...
All this is a written record. Written in Heaven. Nothing is forgotten. Unless one repents. Changes their heart. THEN, will the Lord have mercy and with Revelation will open all eyes to know Him and see Him as revealed in the Law and the Prophets.
Those who think that this time we live in, in this Temple Body we live in of Christ's, is the Kingdom of God in Righteousness Joy and Peace in the Holy Spirit, then WE HAVE Righteousness Joy and Peace in His Holy Spirit!
Those who think that this time is just a time of "grace" by which Christ doesn't actually transform anything in us or about our thoughts words and deeds into His Righteousness, are either ignorant, or false prophets. Ignorance doesn't prevent one from learning. But being a false prophet and bearing false witness of the brethren, and ALSO accuse those who REJOICE in the big changes of our thoughts words and deeds, such people show forth a "character" or "mark" of personality that is destined to the destruction as intended.
I hope you repent Mark. You argue against the saints simply for the sake of fulfilling your own destiny of false accusations and filled with shame and guilt from the sins you can't help but commit. Your intent is altogether ulterior toward sin. By your own words. You also teach others they can't avoid sin. You are a false teacher in that.
Your end is assurred unless you repent of your sins.
Our hands our held out to you as your brethren if you do. Otherwise, nothing will ever change for you and your end is as you cement it. And I shall continue to rebuke your false teachings along with my brethren.
Word to the wise,
Whitestone
You have uncovered my average-ness I fear. I see no duality of natures in one who is given a new heart.
I agree with that Episkopos. We were not given half of a heart but a complete one. And it is a great disservice to Christians to imply they are Schizophrenic.
Axehead
I thought you laid that out very well, dragonfly. Not only may they still be in bondage to sin through ignorance (my people perish for lack of knowledge), but some may not have truly received the Lord and His Spirit.
Axehead
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