Hi mark s,
It's interesting that this group preaching physical 'behavioral perfection' have diverse positions.
Whitstone claims to have got there (his behavior here contradicted this though).
Prentis and Epi believe one day they will reach behavioral perfection in this life (as proof of their salvation).
And I understand dragonfly believes in almost behavioral perfection.
i'm not sure whether Axehead claims he's made it or not yet.
Hi Haz,
I'm mostly interested in learning who will say that they have, or believe they will reach the state of not ever committing any more sins, while in this life, that is, before the resurrection/transformation.
I'd like to know who believes this doctrine (a clear declaration), and I'm very interested in what they have to say about these verses I've posted. I know there are others as well.
I believe the only response they can make is that they don't actually mean what they say. But not to put words in anyone's mouth . . .
Love in Christ,
Mark
You sure whine a lot when you get spanked Haz. You accuse me of a sin then out with it. I've rebuked you for your unchristlike behavior amongst the brethren here, now you find fault with me? Out with it then. What is it?
Hi WS,
You sure are quick to get personal! Why not interact with the doctrine instead of turning on others?
For instance . . .
1 John 3:2 ESV
"Beloved, we are God's children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is."
If you have been born again, then you WILL be like him when you see him. And everyone will see him.
I suggest you concern yourself with your own sins haz and quit trying to find others as sinners.
And quit trying to find fault with the Bible message that the Righteousness of Christ can be manifest in His Body of which we are. You have no idea how un-holy you show yourself each time you do this and twist false accusations back at those whom you would do well to listen closely to. You who still sins... You continue to ignore wise council. I remind you a permanent record is being written...
So then . . . apart from the distractions of you
argumentum ad hominem pointed against Haz (you guys really need to learn the logical fallacies), this then constitutes a "yes" to my unanswered question?
Hi Whitestone,
To be clear . . . you are saying, completely without sin, that you do not any longer sin in thought, word, or deed, correct? That you have attained to this "sinless perfection". Yes?
Love in Christ,
Mark
Let's have some direct interaction, OK? Can you lay aside all the personal comments? These are the kinds of things people say when they can't substantiate their claims. They turn on their opponents, and make them the debate.
"Well, I can't support my assertions, so let's talk about what a bad person you are!" I'm just sayin', it's what a lot of people do . . .
Some have received a perfect Jesus and others have settled for a part-time collage student type Jesus. The part time Jesus doesn't demand very much at all. Just say...I'm hip with ya babe!!! and the thumb goes up!
There is this other Jesus who happens to be sinless and perfect...the Son of the living God. But He makes very high demands on His followers.
The choice is simple....go with the part time Jesus!!!!!! :mellow: :blink:
Hi Epi,
You didn't respond to my query, thought I'd ask a bit more directly . . .
What is this "part time Jesus"? I don't see the in the Bible. Logically, I'd have to say you are referring to "another Jesus", and if that's so, then you must be saying that those who don't believe as you do haven't believed in the real Jesus? Is that what you are saying here?
Or is this maybe just a somewhat glib way of putting down those who disagree?
Love in Christ,
Mark
Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. He knows when we will die so He can space out the lessons accordingly so that He finishes His work in us in time.
At the risk of drawing ungodliness from mockers I will relate a short testimony..
I began my walk in the presence of God walking in an actual light. I was filled to overflowing with the Spirit and utterly fearless testifying on the street to all who would listen. But I couldn't remain there because my heart was the size of a pea. I couldn't stay there. 32 years later I have come a long way and learned many hard lessons and seen and experienced things that few would believe. But I have not yet arrived to where I was at the beginning. Jesus Himself told me that before I die that I will walk again like I did and that I knew WHERE He was...so follow Him. At this juncture I'm not dead yet. This life is a prep school for the next age.
So I have a full confidence that what the Lord has begun in me He is well able to complete.. He is able to carry me through to the full stature of Christ in both purity and maturity.
I began in utter holiness in the light of the immediate presence of God. And that is where I am going...before I leave this life. That is my testimony.
Hi Epi,
I hope you did not think that I would mock you!
And I appreciate this testimony, in that it gives me a different view of you. This is just the sort of clear communication I've hoped for in posting such a pointed thread.
My life in Christ has been somewhat the same, though I don't know if you would see it that way. When I was first born again, God did a huge "emptying me out", as He purged so much worldliness and fleshiness from my life. I didn't stay there either. And I've come to realize there was so very much I hadn't understood (I certain there is still so very much I don't understand), and I went back into the sinfulness He had taken me out of.
Its been 31 years for me since I was reborn. And yes, I've had some very hard lessons, but every one of them has been worth it. I think that God wants for us to try with all we can to not sin, and that He's given us His power to not sin, and yet, even the best of us, the most spiritual, still sometimes sin. Any twinge of worry or doubt, any passing ungodly irritation, no matter how minor, is still from the flesh.
But God has declared us not guilty, sins all paid for, we have peace with God, even though we do sin.
Perhaps the only difference between you and I is that I don't expect to become perfected in thought, word, and deed, until this flesh body is transformed into the heavenly one, while it seems that you expect it to come sooner than that.
If you are not saying that you are currently sinless in all you do, and you are saying that you are forgiven, redeemed, and you are not saying that your behavior will be the determining factor of whether or not you will live together with Jesus for eternity, but rather it is your reliance on His forgiveness purchased for you on the cross, if these are true, then we are in agreement. Do you believe these things?
Love in Christ,
Mark
I believe sanctification works like this:
1. Instantaneous: happens when the believer is saved and receives the Holy Spirit. The beliver is justified and cleansed by the blood of Jesus and reconciled to God.
2. Progressive sanctification: happens throughout the believers life after conversion. This is where the believer grows in Christ likeness, study of the word, fruit of the Holy Spirit.
3. Entire Sanctification: happens when the believer is raptured by Jesus Chris to serve Him eternally.
Hebrews 12:14" For without Holiness no man shall see the Lord!"
Hi UHCAlan,
While I'd phrase it a little differently, essentially I agree with this.
I'd say something like this:
We are made holy when we receive God's reconiliation, and are born again.
Our new holiness increasingly controls our behavior, as we continue to live in these corrupted bodies.
Our new holiness will completely control our behavior when we receive our transformed, heavenly bodies.
Love in Christ,
Mark
We are called to walk in this life today. Sadly many do believe in such a doctrine but have been led to believe this is something reserved for the future, after death. Rather this is the very thing God is calling us to now. We are to walk in heavenly places now. This is not a walk reserved for after death, upon which we happen... But a life we are called to attain now. This is the full stature of Christ. This is what we must go after.
Hi Prentis, my question to you is this. Do you currently life a perfectly obedient life? Are you now in a state of "sinless perfection"? Or, to use this other phrase, "behavioral perfection"? To say that you never commit any sins of any kind?
Do you believe that if we do not have that sort of a life, that we are none-the-less born again, heaven bound, redeemed, provided we actually have been born again?
Do you believe that a person can be born again, baptized into Christ, filled with the Spirit, and still commit sins?
Direct questions . . . direct answers please.
Thank you!
Love in Christ,
Mark
Are you referring to the thread that Kidron posted about the law being abolished for Christians. I can take a joke!!! You sided with the most absurd propositions ever put forth on a Christian forum. How can you say you are filled with the Spirit and contradict truth so directly is beyond me. Thankfully the thread was shut down based on gross heresy! Haz...you agreed with this gross heresy! There is something very wrong with the way you see things.
Without "behavioural perfection" as you call it...fruit of the Spirit actually...we are holding the truth in unrighteousness.
Hi Epi,
Kidron's assertion is taught directly by Scritpure:
Romans 7:1-6 ESV
(1) Or do you not know, brothers--for I am speaking to those who know the law--that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives?
(2) Thus a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage.
(3) Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive.
But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
(4)
Likewise, my brothers,
you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.
(5) For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death.
(6) But
now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve not under the old written code but in the new life of the Spirit.
Romans 6:14-15 ESV
(14) For sin will have no dominion over you, since
you are not under law but under grace.
(15) What then? Are we to sin because
we are not under law but under grace? By no means!
Acts 15:5 ESV
(5) But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses."
Acts 15:28-29 ESV
(28) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements:
(29) that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell."
But to provide the balance that Scripture gives, and segue back the the thread topic,
1 Corinthians 9:19-23 ESV
(19) For though I am free from all, I have made myself a servant to all, that I might win more of them.
(20) To the Jews I became as a Jew, in order to win Jews. To those under the law I became as one under the law (
though not being myself under the law) that I might win those under the law.
(21) To those outside the law I became as one outside the law (
not being outside the law of God but under the law of Christ) that I might win those outside the law.
(22) To the weak I became weak, that I might win the weak. I have become all things to all people, that by all means I might save some.
(23) I do it all for the sake of the gospel, that I may share with them in its blessings.
Paul differentiates between the law contained in the Mosaic Covenant which God made with Israel, and "the law of God", aka "the law of Christ". God desires for us to do all He asks of us, and empowers us to do just that.
Love in Christ,
Mark
If understood properly, these fit. But the last one seems off in what is implied...
