Sinless Perfectionism

[Bible Highlighter]

5:23 Now Paul prays for the sanctification of the Christians. The source is the God of peace. The scope is found in the word completely, meaning “every part of your being.”

This verse has been pressed into service by some to prove the “Holiness” doctrine of entire sanctification—that a believer can become sinlessly perfect in this life.

However, that is not what Paul means when he prays, the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely. He is not praying for the eradication of the sin nature but rather that sanctification would extend to every part of their being—spirit, soul, and body.
EXCURSUS ON SANCTIFICATION
There are four phases of sanctification in the NT—pre-conversion, positional, practical or progressive, and perfect.
1. Even before a person is saved, he is set apart in a position of external privilege. Thus we read in 1Co_7:14 that an unbelieving husband is sanctified by his believing wife. This is pre-conversion sanctification.

2. Whenever a person is born again, he is positionally sanctified by virtue of his union with Christ. This means that he is set apart to God from the world. It is referred to in such passages as Act_26:18; 1Co_1:2; 1Co_6:11; 2Th_2:13; Heb_10:10, Heb_10:14.

3. But then there is progressive sanctification. This is a present setting apart of the believer to God from the world, sin, and self. It is the process by which he becomes more Christlike. This is the sanctification which Paul prays for the Thessalonians here. It is also found in 1Th_4:3-4; 2Ti_2:21. It is brought about by the Holy Spirit when we are obedient to the word of God (Joh_17:17; 2Co_3:18). Such practical sanctification is a process that should continue as long as the believer is on earth. He will never achieve perfection or sinlessness on earth, but he should ever be pressing toward that goal.

4. Perfect sanctification refers to the believer's final condition in heaven. When he goes to be with the Lord, he will be morally like the Lord, completely and finally set apart from sin (1Jn_3:1-3).

Try again, you "cut out" the progressive sanctification" thus becoming a god in this life.

J.

While some Christians may claim or imply to be Sinlessly Perfect, I don’t think a believer who is perfect in conduct will say that they are perfect because the praise should go to Jesus and or God and not themselves for their conduct and perfection. The true teaching of Sinless Perfection is not us claiming to be perfect now (When we first learn of the doctrine), but it is…. The Sanctification of the Spirit whereby we PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God (To eventually at some point in our walk with GOD to be perfect). You may go… Ah, ha. See.. you cannot be perfect because you are currently in the Sanctification Process. That would be like claiming a baby who can only drink milk and not solid food will always be that way their whole adult life. Christians grow and mature just as babies do. The goal is perfection just as Paul also stated. Perfection is mentioned plainly in the King James Bible as in reference to the saints. I already provided these verses for you already (But you have rejected them). Again, I am not claiming to be perfect. I am in a Sanctification Process and it is my hope by God’s power to be perfect in this life one day (And give Him all the glory and praise for that). Paul says if we think we are something when we are nothing… we deceive ourselves. So even a Christian who is perfect will think they are nothing and Christ is everything. In essence, they would have sold out to Christ entirely relying on Him fully (With God guiding them). What more beautiful thing can you imagine than that? But if you like to attack how men should not strive to be perfect because the goal is impossible, then by all means… you can keep defending how the saints are slaves to sin and imperfectionism. But with God… all things are possible. Do not limit the LORD and His power of what He can do in the life of His saints. God’s hands are not tied in helping us to overcome sin in this life. God is more powerful than sin. Yet, you act like sin is more powerful than God.

Are there Christians who misunderstand the teaching of Sinless Perfection and misuse it by boasting to be perfect? Sure, but that does not undo the true teaching of Sinless Perfection in the Bible whereby a believer who is truly living by this doctrine would not do that.

 

[Keturah]

Folks do err NOT knowing the scriptures.
In them God has made provisional promises and is NOT slack concerning them.

If he says a thing is to be obeyed,it must be obeyed.

We can NOT be doers of the word IF we don't KNOW the word.

 

[Johann]

While some Christians may claim or imply to be Sinlessly Perfect, I don’t think a believer who is perfect in conduct will say that they are perfect because the praise should go to Jesus and or God and not themselves for their conduct and perfection. The true teaching of Sinless Perfection is not us claiming to be perfect now (When we first learn of the doctrine), but it is…. The Sanctification of the Spirit whereby we PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God (To eventually at some point in our walk with GOD to be perfect). You may go… Ah, ha. See.. you cannot be perfect because you are currently in the Sanctification Process. That would be like claiming a baby who can only drink milk and not solid food will always be that way their whole adult life. Christians grow and mature just as babies do. The goal is perfection just as Paul also stated. Perfection is mentioned plainly in the King James Bible as in reference to the saints. I already provided these verses for you already (But you have rejected them). Again, I am not claiming to be perfect. I am in a Sanctification Process and it is my hope by God’s power to be perfect in this life one day (And give Him all the glory and praise for that). Paul says if we think we are something when we are nothing… we deceive ourselves. So even a Christian who is perfect will think they are nothing and Christ is everything. In essence, they would have sold out to Christ entirely relying on Him fully (With God guiding them). What more beautiful thing can you imagine than that? But if you like to attack how men should not strive to be perfect because the goal is impossible, then by all means… you can keep defending how the saints are slaves to sin and imperfectionism. But with God… all things are possible. Do not limit the LORD and His power of what He can do in the life of His saints. God’s hands are not tied in helping us to overcome sin in this life. God is more powerful than sin. Yet, you act like sin is more powerful than God.

Are there Christians who misunderstand the teaching of Sinless Perfection and misuse it by boasting to be perfect? Sure, but that does not undo the true teaching of Sinless Perfection in the Bible whereby a believer who is truly living by this doctrine would not do that.

This is the closest to what I believe, without the Ad Hominem attacks on my character.
Heck, Billy the Kid, your aim is getting closer.
At least you hold to progressive sanctification and not the eradication of the sinful nature.
Like most here do.
J.

 

[Johann]

This is the closest to what I believe, without the Ad Hominem attacks on my character.
Heck, Billy the Kid, your aim is getting closer.
At least you hold to progressive sanctification and not the eradication of the sinful nature.
Like most here do.
J.

Oh, and some are making YouTube video/teachings, just waffling, attacking other characters as they see fit.
And the "dude" is a likeable fella.
J.

 

[Johann]

Folks do err NOT knowing the scriptures.
In them God has made provisional promises and is NOT slack concerning them.

If he says a thing is to be obeyed,it must be obeyed.

We can NOT be be doers of the word IF we don't KNOW the word.

Yup, the 1050 Imperatives recorded in Scriptures, the Indicatives, 2nd Aorist's Optative, Middle Voice and the VERBS.
J.

 

[Keturah]

Yup, the 1050 Imperatives recorded in Scriptures, the Indicatives, 2nd Aorist's Optative, Middle Voice and the VERBS.
J.

Come on now Johann.
That was quite unnecessary, correct ?

Not a scholarly knowledge but a heart knowledge. Being able to divide the structuring of sentences is above and beyond what God requires.

His very own disciples were unlearned fishermen, and educated in a livelihood as their source of education.

It must be a CHANGE of mind and a spiritual heart condition that gets God's attention.

Men seem to think they are smart, educated, taught ect lol God SPOKE and it was done.
The ONLY ONE WE NEED TO TEACH US HOW TO HAVE KNOWLEDGE, UNDERSTANDING AND WISDOM IS GOD'S SPIRIT.


THE REST IS JUST BLUBBER!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It’s dangerous to claim to be without sin.

The article states, it is dangerous to claim to be without sin.
Yet, Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11).
Who am I going to believe? The words of this man from an article or Jesus?
I choose Jesus Christ.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the closest to what I believe, without the Ad Hominem attacks on my character.

I see Ad Hominem attacks as attacking one’s character in attempt to discredit the person that has nothing to do with the actual argument involved. If a person is not grasping the other person’s position or they are defending a position that is flawed based on a basic deductive wrong motivations that would be attached to that position (Based on the Word of God), then it is not really an unfounded defense of the truth. You have to understand that Jesus called others vipers (Matthew 23:33), and the apostle Paul called the Galatians as foolish (Galatians 3:1). You can say.. “Well, that’s Jesus, and that’s Paul, and not you.” But Paul says “Be ye followers of me, even as I also am of Christ.” (1 Corinthians 11:1).

The thing is that you have to stop listening to others (Blindly quoting articles, videos, etcetera), and you have to start reading the Word of God alone and ask God to send you the Spirit to understand the Scriptures as they are plainly written in our English; Also when you are confronted with a verse that you don’t like, be willing to admit your wrong and read the whole chapter (or following chapters in prayer). This is the only way you will be able to see where I am coming from. If not, you will see only what you want to see. I say this not to attack you but to help you to believe God’s Word by faith. For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God (Romans 10:17). Faith does not come by hearing the words of men or by hearing the words of our own thoughts. Isaiah 55:7 says the unrighteous are to forsake their thoughts. “Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts…” (Isaiah 55:7). Are you doing that? Are you believing 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1, and Galatians 5:24 in what it plainly says in the English or are you seeking to find another interpretation by picking and choosing a definition that you selected in the original languages you don’t know (To fit your thoughts). See, that’s no way to build truth. Go off your own thinking and then let the Word of God fit that kind of thinking. We must derive truth out of God’s Word and not insert our own truth into it.

Heck, Billy the Kid, your aim is getting closer.

Not too long ago: There was actually a man (Bob Munden) here in the States (now deceased) who always hits his target with a western style gun. He is also super fast and they measured his shooting as being faster than a rattle snake biting.

Bob Munden - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The point here is that he is unique and he practiced to be that way. In recent history: He used to be perfect in gunslinging than any other man on the planet (That we know of). So we can also be unique by being born again spiritually (by not justifying sin and seeking forgiveness with the LORD) and in going through the Sanctification Process… cleansing ourselves from ALL filthiness of the flesh and spirit PERFECTING holiness in the fear of God (2 Corinthians 7:1) (2 Thessalonians 2:13) (Galatians 6:8-9) (Romans 8:13).

At least you hold to progressive sanctification and not the eradication of the sinful nature.
Like most here do.
J.

I believe Galatians 5:24 that they that are Christ’s have crucified the affections and lusts. So the lusts can be crucified. But we still have free will and so that does not mean one cannot go back and draw unto perdition. Granted, most who have crossed over to the threshold of living for Christ in such an extreme way would most likely not draw back but they believe God’s Word all the way to the saving of the soul (Doing God’s will and glorifying Him and not themselves).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Yup, the 1050 Imperatives recorded in Scriptures, the Indicatives, 2nd Aorist's Optative, Middle Voice and the VERBS.
J.

I did a study on the New Testament commands. It’s actually more like 400 some commands (As how they naturally appear in the Bible). The list by Finnis Dake is inaccurate. He creates commands based on the grouping of related verbs (as you mentioned) and he actually leaves out some commands. To create commands based on verbs is to force something in the text that is not natural. It is interesting that one could do that, but it would not be a command as it naturally appears in Scripture. That would be enforcing one’s own mindset upon the Word (Which is wrong) because he is saying they are commands (When that is not so); They are merely the verbs that are related). Then again… Finnis Dake rejected the Godhead (Trinity) and so we should not be surprised he is not looking at the Word of God correctly.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

This is the closest to what I believe, without the Ad Hominem attacks on my character.
Heck, Billy the Kid, your aim is getting closer.
At least you hold to progressive sanctification and not the eradication of the sinful nature.
Like most here do.
J.

I believe in the eradication of the lusts of the flesh because that is what Galatians 5:24 says. It’s not that one cannot later go back and choose to willfully sin. A person still has free will. But sin can control a person. Jesus said he that sins is a slave to sin (John 8:34-35). Sin can make a person disobey even when they want to obey. Romans 7:14-24 (Which is Paul describing his struggle to keep the Law because his sinful nature was controlling him) because he was trying to be justified by the Torah or the Old Law (the 613 Laws of Moses) before he knew Jesus Christ.

I see again Sinless Perfection as not something a believer can generally achieve overnight and they must enter the Sanctification Process of the Spirit to get there in this life. It takes time to get there. Those who teach they are Sinlessly Perfect overnight and teach that you can be are misguided because they deny the Sanctification Process (2 Corinthians 7:1). So not all who believe in Sinless Perfection hold to the same definition of what Sinless Perfection means. Even many of those in the Belief Alone camp believe in Sinless Perfection because they believe they are perfect by believing in the finished work of the cross (In that Jesus is their proxy or sinlessness on their behalf). Meaning, that when they sin, they believe God the Father does not see their sin but He sees Jesus and His perfection. So they could look at women in lust, and or hate others and claim they are perfect and sinless in Christ. This is wrong, and unbiblical.

So the different views of Sinless Perfection are….

#1. Sinless Perfection is believing in the finished work of the cross.
#2. Sinless Perfection is abiding in Christ (and yet they don’t say how to abide in Christ).
#3. Sinless Perfection can be achieved immediately by choosing to stop sinning.
#4. Sinless Perfection is attained in time eventually in this life by partaking of the Sanctification of the Spirit (Which crucifies the affections and lusts - but it does not mean their free will is eradicated). For even the devil was perfect in his ways before iniquity was found within him. Believers who are perfect are not going to announce they are perfect and they will think they are nothing and they will esteem others better than themselves (Not that they will approve of their imperfections or sin or anything).

 

[Serzxvr]

Can someone help how to answer a new topic ??
Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Please help.
Thank you.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Can someone help how to answer a new topic ??
Maybe I'm doing something wrong?
Please help.
Thank you.

You might have to have a certain number of posts before you can reply…I seem to remember you need 10 or 20 posts? Not sure…